635 replies to this topic

[MarkBisset]

https://primotipo.co...ght-car-racing/

 

Thanks Ray, I should have re-read my own piece.

 

I've got that shot too, it's the McLaren/Halliday Ford A-Spl @ left, I wonder what the Midget on the right is?

 

Cam's 'News Cuttings Rumblings' book list his name and address as 'Sub/Lieut C.S. McLaren, 456 Glen Eira Road, Caulfield'. So, a 'wartime' date one suspects. I wonder if that is the backyard locale for your shot and the cars were kept there over the September 1940 weekend in which the Tooronga Park 'Light Car Racing' event took place? Its a distance of only 5km.

[cooper997]

One for Neill Murdoch.

 

Found within the pages of July 1938 BRDC Speed magazine, Showing Bill Bennett in 55S at 6/6/38 Brooklands and the results revealing a win.

 

.

 

 

This car, and the other Murdoch family-owned 21S features in Mr Bisset's October 2023 'The Automobile' (due in Australian newsagents very soon)

 

 

Stephen

[cooper997]

And perhaps if Neill needs a Christmas present to match his car, from the family...

 

https://prints.motor...y-24144036.html

 

 

Stephen

[cooper997]

A very special group of racing cars listed... how many Alfa, Bugatti or ERA would Sir like? Multiples of millions at a specialist dealer or auction these days.

 

Speed advert from over 86 years ago. No doubt eligible for many TNF threads but I'm putting it here in the Alta thread.

 

April 37 Speed

 

 

Stephen

[Michael Ferner]

Wow, what an inventory! At a quick reckoning, way over 20,000 pounds worth in stock! Never knew T&T were that big, I always pegged them to be mainly a race preparation shop, in the way of the many similar shops in the US.

[Vitesse2]

Wow, what an inventory! At a quick reckoning, way over 20,000 pounds worth in stock! Never knew T&T were that big, I always pegged them to be mainly a race preparation shop, in the way of the many similar shops in the US.

I think most would be 'on commission' sales, Michael. Title - and the car - retained by the owner until sold, but with T&T doing the legwork of marketing and advertising. Probably more effective, easier and cheaper for the owners than arranging their own small ads in The Motor, The Autocar, Speed and Motor Sport.

 

During the war years they operated a large warehouse in an undisclosed safe location 'near Brooklands' which accommodated many road and racing cars that had been laid up 'for the duration', including the Napier-Railton, the Barnato-Hassan, Reggie Tongue's Maserati 4CL and Goldie Gardner's MG EX135. Possibly the Cobham premises mentioned at the foot of the advert. They also developed interesting sidelines building components for Noel Macklin's Fairmile boat company and in refurbishing parts for crashed Luftwaffe planes which were being rebuilt for evaluation by the RAF's special 'enemy aircraft flight' - AKA the 'Rafwaffe'. There was at least one other similar storage facility for cars in the multi-storey car park at the Olympia Exhibition Centre, run by Metropolis Garages. Its 'residents' included Eddie Hall's TT-winning Bentley and Ian Craig's Bugatti T50.

[cooper997]

I don't recall posting this before.

 

From 'Everybody's Book of British Racing Cars' compiled by Cyril Posthumus / The Vitesse Publishing Company. I presume a self-published effort given the Green St, Sunbury-on-Thames address.

 

Just one page for each of 14 racing marques covered, this being the Alta page.

 

 

 

Stephen

[racingreen]

For anyone considering or knowing anyone who might be considering bidding on the Ex. Alan Ede Alta project at the upcoming Bonhams Goodwood Auction, please be aware that the description is highly misleading - this car was never a GP wheelbase, and never had a chassis number GP/F2/1..... it was F2/1, and was only ever an F2 wheel base, track, and specification car.

Bonhams Cars : 1952 Alta Racing Single-Seater Chassis no. 'GP-F2-1' (See text)

[Garsted]

Here's a visit to Alta's little works at Tolworth, showing one of the 1952-53 Formula 2 machines and then what is captioned on the print as Geoffrey Crossley's 1949 GP car (note its supercharger). If anyone knows the general area today, do any of the background buildings still exist?123456789And here's the man 'imself - Geoffrey Taylor, photographed somewhat earlier...10All photos: The GP Library/Denis Jenkinson Collection

Is it necessary to take out an imageshack subscription to see these images? At least I did not get the usual "image no longer available" type message.
Thanks, Steve

[Ray Bell]

Maybe put them on Postimage?

 

No subscriptions there...

[Garsted]

I was wanting to see some pictures Doug had previously posted rather than post new ones of my own, but anyway...

I am researching the history of Alta F2 chassis number 2, the Gordon Watson car. I am reliably informed that in the Daily Express Trophy Meeting at Silverstone on May 10th 1952 it came 10th in Heat 2. I have also seen another report that it came 14th, could this have been in the final? Could anyone out there verify this for me?

The same source says that in 1953 it was driven by a Brian Naylor at Oulton Park on August the 8th and at Snetterton on September 12th. I have looked at the Autosport archive online but have not been able to confirm this, again, can anybody help?

As the new owner of this car I am keen to hear anything else anyone can tell me about its history. I have of course read the rest of this Alta thread from beginning to end.
Thanks Steve

[fivestar]

I have looked at my sources and found the following-

Daily Express Trophy Meeting at Silverstone on May 10th 1952, 10th in Heat 2 and 14th in Final

In 1953 Brian Naylor is listed as driver/entrant on both August 8 and September 12. However for the August 8 meeting the engine is shown as Lea Francis? and for the September 12 meeting the car is listed with a Bristol engine.

Hope this helps

[Garsted]

That's brilliant fivestar. Thanks very much.
I think I will continue to treat the Brian Naylor report with caution, maybe not my car at all.
Regards, Steve

[cooper997]

Steve, part of the problem generating a response in Historical Research is that not everyone looks in this sub-forum.

 

In the main section there's another Alta related thread started by Doug Nye with Denis Jenkinson info. That might be of interest too.

 

As for the Watson car at May 52 Silverstone, there's a photo of the car published in 6/2/53 Autosport.

 

The Watson car gets a bit of a mention in the extremely rare Jim Gullan book (100 copies published in 1993 about this Aussie's life in motor sport). Mainly because he was in the UK during the early 50s and involved with the Gaze car that preceded yours.

 

I can only suggest you add here the events you are currently aware of the car being entered and see what some of us can then hopefully add.

 

 

Stephen

[jbbugatti]

Surely Brian Naylor’s Alta was GP3, ex-Joe Kelly?

[fivestar]

Surely Brian Naylor’s Alta was GP3, ex-Joe Kelly?

You may be correct. The info I have is Alta F2-F2, which I assumed to be the Watson car.

I note in the USAF Trophy Race on 25th July 1953, Naylor's car  was listed as Alta - Bristol BS

Edited by fivestar, 16 August 2024 - 07:16.

[cooper997]

Here's how US specialist auction magazine Sports Car Market covered the recent sale of F2/2 twice in 2023.

 

 

 

Stephen

[cooper997]

Geoffrey Taylor's first Alta PK 4053 was sharing space with some very nice cars at Hampton Court Concours over the weekend.

 

 

Refer 'Cars with HNK' youtube

Skip to around the 38minute mark to see the Alta (and 1 minute earlier for the Ballot recently sent from Australia)

 

 

https://youtu.be/vTF..._-Fu3VSt1_AsCWW

 

 

 

Stephen

Edited by cooper997, 04 September 2024 - 02:44.

[Garsted]

Steve, part of the problem generating a response in Historical Research is that not everyone looks in this sub-forum.

 

In the main section there's another Alta related thread started by Doug Nye with Denis Jenkinson info. That might be of interest too.

 

As for the Watson car at May 52 Silverstone, there's a photo of the car published in 6/2/53 Autosport.

 

The Watson car gets a bit of a mention in the extremely rare Jim Gullan book (100 copies published in 1993 about this Aussie's life in motor sport). Mainly because he was in the UK during the early 50s and involved with the Gaze car that preceded yours.

 

I can only suggest you add here the events you are currently aware of the car being entered and see what some of us can then hopefully add.

 

 

Stephen

I thought I would take up  cooper997’s suggestion of posting what I know about Alta F2-02 and see if any of you out there can add to it or fill in some gaps.

What follows is almost exclusively due to the research of David Woodhouse and is my precis of the information he made available to me.  It is extracted from the draft of his forthcoming book on Altas.

The first couple of years of F2 – 02 are well documented, it is the later years when it became a club racer that I know less about, events it did and when exactly it changed hands, so here goes 

 

1951 Purchased by Gordon Watson

 

DATE                  EVENT                                                           DRIVER

May 5^th               Silverstone,  International Trophy                   GW

June 3^rd               Nordscleife, ADAC Eifelrennen                     GW

July 8^th                Rouen, GP DE Rouen Les Essarts                GW

July 15^th              Mettet,  Charleroi                                           GW

Aug 11^th              Boreham, D. Mail F2 & F. libre  Trophy           GW

Sept 9^th               Grenzland Rennen                                          Bill Whitehouse

Sept 29^th            Goodwood

   ..                        Madgwick Cup                                                Bill Whitehouse

   ..                        3^rd Sept H’cap                                                BW.

   ..                        Daily Graphic Trophy                                      BW

Oct 6^th                Castle Combe, Bristol MC H’cap                       BW

Oct 13^th              Winfield                                                            BW

Oct 27^th              Snetterton, Inaugural Sprints                            Rex Woodgate

 

1952

April 14^th            Goodwood

   ..                        Lavant CupF2                                                GW

   ..                        Chichester Cup F Libre                                 GW

   ..                        Richmond Trophy                                          GW

April 19^th            Ibsley F2                                                          Rex Woodgate

May 10^th             Silverstone, BRDC Intl Trophy                        GW

May 31st            Snetterton                                                        Bill Whitehouse

The car crashed on the third lap and rolled several times. It was rebuilt with some changes to the dash hoop, seat, and exhaust, and became the first Alta fitted with rack and pinion steering.

July 19^th              Silverstone, D. Express F Libre                     GW

Sept 27^th            Goodwood, Madgwick Cup (DNS)                  GW

Oct 22^nd             Exhibited at Earls Court Motor Show

 

1953

This is where things get rather sketchy

Feb 27^th              advertised for sale by GW via his Leacroft of Egham business

Papers seen at the recent auction of F2-01 suggest F2-02 was driven by Brian Nylor on 8^th of August and 12^th of September  at Oulton and Snetterton, but I think we have decided that this is not so

 

1954

Appears in Mike Hawthorns TT Garage in photos for a Smiths Watch advert. For sale there?

 

1955

April 30^th            Ibsley F Libre                                                   Squadron Leader Peter Wilson

What happened between 1955 and the next time we have information in 1962 is not known

 

1962

Oct 6^th                Goodwood                                                       Pilot Officer (later Commander) Nigel Grier-Rees

At some point the car passed to Anthony Foley ( as mentioned in post 106 of this thread) who sold the car (when?) to Ray Potter for about £500

1964

Aug 17^th              Prescott                                                           Ray Potter

1965

September        Castle Combe                                                   Ray Potter

1966                  

April                    Silverstone                                                      Ray Potter

July                      Silverstone Hawthorn Trophy                        Ray Potter

There is also an undated photograph of RP at Crystal Palace, but I suspect he did more than these 5 events in 3 years

During RP’s tenure the car acquired its high-level 4-2-1 exhaust to replace the 4 stub pipes it had used since 1952

 

1967     ???

 

1968

Date Unknown;   Brands Hatch Nuvolari Cup                             Michael Adams

 

1969

Feb       Advertised for sale in Motor Sport

Dec 20^th; I have a certificate from Peter Jowett, consulting engineer and sometime RAC chief scrutineer to the effect that the chassis suspension, rear uprights and steering arms were crack free.

Acquired by Dudley Gahagan for client Horace Capauldi who sold it again via Gahagan for around £2000 within a year. It is not known if Capauldi used it.

Next owner possibly Ray Fielding ? when?

 

1974

Sold at a Christies auction to Andrew Fletcher

 

1975

Date unknown Ingliston                                         Andrew Fletcher

 

That is believed to be its last race. It was then unused for 48 years until offered for sale by Bonhams in 2023

 

2024

February            Purchased by myself, Stephen Garrett

The car is presently being dismantled for refurbishment. So far I have found a damaged final drive (it ingested a bolt), worn gears in the oil pump drive, and a badly bent valve. It looks like it may have had a broken cam chain sometime towards the end of its active life.

 

If you can add any information, new events or owners, or dates to the story I would very much appreciate it.

 

Thanks, Steve

[cooper997]

Here's a couple of meetings worth of data from the relevant programmes. One is in Steve post 619 events listing, the other not.

 

Sat, 5/5/51(P) Silverstone Daily Express International Trophy Meeting.

Cover illustrated side on view of green, red & (just nose) of blue racing cars.

Daily Express Trophy Race – heat 1 11.25am 15 laps p40

5 J Kelly Alta (S) 1488cc Driver Ei

Lap chart filled in

Daily Express Trophy Race – heat 2 1.55pm 15 laps p44

6 F A O Gaze Alta 1960cc Driver Aus

8 G M Watson 1960cc Driver Br

Lap chart filled in

Daily Express Trophy Race – final 4.35pm 35 laps p50

5 J Kelly Alta (S) 1488cc Driver Ei

6 F A O Gaze Alta 1960cc Driver Aus

8 G M Watson Alta 1960cc Driver Br

Lap chart for final not filled in, but grid is additionally noted…

28 14 3 4

11 27 10

32 12 31 25

35 1 33

6 9 2 34

7 19 30

8 29 22 17

_ 20 5

21 _ 26

 

 

Whit-Monday 14/5/51 (P) Goodwood - Festival of Britain Trophy

Event 3 Daily Graphic Race for Festival of Britain Trophy Formulae Libre 7 laps 2.40pm p29

22 G M Watson Alta 4 1960 Green

Grid filled in 1 (P)

14 18 6 2 (pole this side)

 24 22 10

16 4 12 8

 20 28 26

Results written in as 2 6 8 4

Event 4 Daily Graphic Race for Festival of Britain Trophy Formulae Libre 7 laps 3.15pm

11 J Kelly Alta s/c 4 1498 Green

Grid filled in 1 (P)

19 27 11 23 (pole this side)

    7 25 1

17 29 5 21

   9 31 15

            3

Results written in 5 1 3

Event 6 Daily Graphic Race for the Festival of Britain Trophy – Final 15 laps 4.50pm p34

(P) has entries written in, neither Alta driver listed

 

From the post 619 listing...

"June 3^rd               Nordscleife, ADAC Eifelrennen                     GW "

This one has me slightly curious for more info. I have the programme, but can't see an Alta reference in this car and bike meeting. Various Britons entered the meeting - Wharton, Frost, Emery, Cooper, Carter, Whitehouse & Moore across a couple of events. So was Gordon Watson accepted as a late entry?

 

 

Stephen

[Garsted]

Thank you Stephen for post 620.  the Whit Monday meeting is a new one for me - excellent.

 

I was told about the Eifelrennen meeting by David Woodhouse, and it is corroborated by this photo I found on line

 

Eifelrennen Formula Two | Revs Digital Library (revsinstitute.org)

 

so I guess you are probably right - a late entry

 

Many Thanks, Steve

[cooper997]

Steve, I only recently discovered the private Fawkner Motoring Library has the rather rare 2 volume Robert Barker Goodwood books.

 

So yesterday I put it to use for the May 51 Goodwood info. Dodgy snap follows...

 

 

As for the Nurburgring photo, I can only assume car 118 Watson Alta ran in...

'Rennen V: Rennwagen der Formel II'

but his car number is earlier than the printed entries covering 121 to 139

 

 

Stephen

Edited by cooper997, 18 September 2024 - 06:58.

[GazChed]

Steve, I only recently discovered the private Fawkner Motoring Library has the rather rare 2 volume Robert Barker Goodwood books.

So yesterday I put it to use for the May 51 Goodwood info. Dodgy snap follows...



As for the Nurburgring photo, I can only assume car 118 Watson Alta ran in...
'Rennen V: Rennwagen der Formel II'
but his car number is earlier than the printed entries covering 121 to 139


Stephen

Is there any chance of you posting another 625 dodgy snaps of this book Stephen ?

[fivestar]

I found this for the 1951 Eifelrennen F2 race, but no 118 or Watson listed-

https://www.the-fast...la2/F251_10.htm

[Jahn1234567890]

I found this for the 1951 Eifelrennen F2 race, but no 118 or Watson listed-

https://www.the-fast...la2/F251_10.htm

 

As per the official result sheets of this event Watson finished 12th and last.

[cooper997]

Is there any chance of you posting another 625 dodgy snaps of this book Stephen ?

 

Gaz, I'm taking this as slightly tongue in cheek comment. As master of a dodgy snaps, I can possibly borrow from FML and take some more. But probably in fairness to Robert's research every page might be stretching things. The good thing is that across the globe there's 99 other sets gathering dust on enthusiasts bookshelves (or indeed being used for research).

 

I don't know if any fellow TNF members have access to Robert's raw data files since his passing. I purchased some of his programmes via his ebay when still alive and I know some material later went to dealers. Whether they got data too, I don't know.

 

 

Stephen

[GazChed]

Yes Stephen, my tongue was firmly in my cheek. However, what can an enthusiast do if you can no longer buy this particular tome ? Carry on doing your own research which is more satisfying and a lot cheaper. In the meantime Stephen, keep taking the dodgy snaps, you are doing a fine job !

[Sterzo]

There is a copy of Robert Barker's two-volume Goodwood history for sale at Abe Books currently, though it's £400, which may imply selling a mother-in-law depending on finances.

[GazChed]

I saw that and another one was being offered for £375 on another site. I don't understand why a third edition hasn't been offered. With the popularity of Goodwood these days another hundred or maybe even two hundred would sell out in no time ?

[dgs]

I saw that and another one was being offered for £375 on another site. I don't understand why a third edition hasn't been offered. With the popularity of Goodwood these days another hundred or maybe even two hundred would sell out in no time ?

I purchased the Goodwood books (£200.00 at time most expensive set books in my collection).  

Some time later after emailing Robert Barker on some point, he kindly sent me a CD with the second edition, which has a lot of extra information on chassis numbers.

As GazChed states perhaps a third edition would me worth printing.

[cooper997]

I had no idea the Barker Goodwood works were £100 per volume when new. I will be back at the FML collection tomorrow. So will ask about borrowing. 

 

However It sounds like there could be a good outcome if data from dgs's Barker CD could possibly migrate to GazChed...

 

 

Meanwhile Alta-related, yesterday Neill Murdoch's ex Bennett / Lowe Alta 55S was out playing at Rob Roy Hillclimb.

 

 

 

Stephen

[cooper997]

Back to dodgy snaps...

 

Here''s some data from Robert Barker's epic Goodwood effort relating to September 1951 meeting and the Watson / Whitehouse Alta exploits.

 

 

 

 

I acknowledge Robert's effort and also thank Phil at FML for allowing to borrow copy #98.

 

 

Stephen

[Garsted]

Many Thanks for everyones contributions, particularly the info from the Robert Barker book. What is the meaning of the penultimate column in his tabulations? I haven't figured that one out yet.
Steve

[GazChed]

It's the number of laps completed by that particular competitor. I can't work out why some of the competitors numbers have an I in front of them.

Edited by GazChed, 26 September 2024 - 12:25.

[dgs]

It's the number of laps completed by that particular competitor. I can't work out why some of the competitors numbers have an I in front of them.

The [ in front of numberr indicates either did not appear or did not start 

[cooper997]

Dodgy snaps Mk3 - Easter 1952 Goodwood, revealing an event entry not listed in post 619.

 

 

 

 

 

Again, I acknowledge Robert's effort and also thank Phil at FML for allowing to borrow copy #98.

 

 

Stephen