2389 replies to this topic

[davegp3]

I have read interview with Pascal Vasselon (Michelin) and particularly this is interesting:

What are this season’s major tyre compound and construction changes?
We have concentrated particularly on fine-tuning tyres for circuits at which we felt we were unable to produce our customary dominance last year. To name a couple from the early part of the season, we don’t believe we gave our partners the same advantage at Melbourne and Imola as we did at other venues. These two tracks are what we call ‘front limiting’ in that they reduce the potential effectiveness of the front tyres in some respects. I appreciate that Melbourne was a great result for us, with a 1-2-3 finish, but our analysis shows that our tyre advantage in Australia was the smallest of the season – about 0.1s per lap. At some other tracks the margin was closer to 1.3s.

[Odyss]

Originally posted by RedIsTheColour
Brazil is a joke of a race, third world personified.

Get used to the third world. More races are moving there, and even more are scheduled to move there in future. What was it Bernie said about Europe not being able to compete in future?

[f1rules]

this is from mclarens own homepage.

David: “Well, we’ve done a number of different tests through January and February, mainly in Spain because of weather and availability of the circuits. We’ve inevitably experienced a few technical problems, which is part of the development of a new car. I think we would be just as worried if we didn’t have problems, because that would be unusual. Pace wise, it is very difficult to judge but I think it’s safe to say that we’re going to competitive when we get to Melbourne.”

New turn in direction, seems like the drivers moods has just as many ups and downs as us fans

[Scoots]

Originally posted by Odyss


Get used to the third world. More races are moving there, and even more are scheduled to move there in future. What was it Bernie said about Europe not being able to compete in future?

Interesting thing about the "third world" races and race tracks that have been added over the last several seasons ... they are all much better maintained and run that the Brazilian race.

The drivers like the Brazilian track layout, and nothing else. The teams are more worried about their security in Brazil than they are in Bahrain.

[Mox]

The FIA marshalls messed up -- they should've disqualified Alonso from the race and nullified his result. They couldn't ban him since they'd also have to ban Michael Schumacher, who also went off during double waved yellows earlier in the race. (I believe there was a period of contemplation on the FIA's part)

Except for me thinking that there was only a single stationary yellow at the S do Senna when Schumacher lost it, I completely agree.

Alonso should have been DQ'ed big time.

[zfh10]

Originally posted by Odyss
Get used to the third world. More races are moving there, and even more are scheduled to move there in future.

Where?

[HBoss]

Originally posted by Menace


No need to take it personal Rodrigo... he simply stated the race has been pretty poorly managed in recent years, the track surface has been horrible, signs falling, thefts from the paddock etc.

Remember?

They need to do better. It would be a shame to not have a GP in Brazil.

In our defense, those things (I can't remember them exactly) which were reported to have been stolen from the pits/boxes some years ago were actually misplaced. My memory is vague about it, but I'm sure the theft was dismissed after some investigation.

[BuonoBruttoCattivo]

Originally posted by Odyss


Get used to the third world. More races are moving there, and even more are scheduled to move there in future. What was it Bernie said about Europe not being able to compete in future?

Really?
Bahrain's GDP per capita could put any country to shame, and Brazil, Turkey and China are 'developing' nations. Malaysia is part of the Asian Tigers group.
Do u even know what the definition of third world country is, or u just label anyone u don't know about as backward?
I'm from italy, and I am constantly surprised were part of the G7, let alone a modern functioning nation. Notwithstanding a certain GP in a certain country were when it rains, roads turn into mud and u have to walk 3 hours to get to your seat.
Go Frist World.

[eoin]

Originally posted by BuonoBruttoCattivo


Really?

Bahrain's GDP per capita could put any country to shame, and Brazil, Turkey and China are 'developing' nations. Malaysia is part of the Asian Tigers group.
Do u even know what the definition of third world country is, or u just label anyone u don't know about as backward?
I'm from italy, and I am constantly surprised were part of the G7, let alone a modern functioning nation. Notwithstanding a certain GP in a certain country were when it rains, roads turn into mud and u have to walk 3 hours to get to your seat.
Go Frist World.

The average person doesn't have a great wage, but Bahrain is far from a third world. It has a very good health service, which is free and a good transport network, someone my country lacks!!!!

[Racer Joe]

Originally posted by f1rules
this is from mclarens own homepage.

David: “Well, we’ve done a number of different tests through January and February, mainly in Spain because of weather and availability of the circuits. We’ve inevitably experienced a few technical problems, which is part of the development of a new car. I think we would be just as worried if we didn’t have problems, because that would be unusual. Pace wise, it is very difficult to judge but I think it’s safe to say that we’re going to competitive when we get to Melbourne.?

New turn in direction, seems like the drivers moods has just as many ups and downs as us fans

Not really. David and Kimi are two different entities and DC has never spoken as negatively of the car as Kimi has. I certainly don't remember DC saying anything as pessimistic as not sure whether he can finish the race at Melbourne....

[ruther]

Originally posted by RedIsTheColour
Brazil is a joke of a race, third world personified.

Really?

[Racer Joe]

Actually the track at Interlagos is a great track. From what we are hearing, they need to do some upgrades on the infrastructure and the facilities. But short of an earthquake, I don't see how Bernie would ever pull the plug on a race in Brazil.

[Odyss]

Originally posted by BuonoBruttoCattivo


Really?
Bahrain's GDP per capita could put any country to shame, and Brazil, Turkey and China are 'developing' nations. Malaysia is part of the Asian Tigers group.
Do u even know what the definition of third world country is, or u just label anyone u don't know about as backward?
I'm from italy, and I am constantly surprised were part of the G7, let alone a modern functioning nation. Notwithstanding a certain GP in a certain country were when it rains, roads turn into mud and u have to walk 3 hours to get to your seat.
Go Frist World.

You must read a different BB than the one I post in. Point out where I used the term "backward" in my post. I responded to the term "third world" used by another poster. I didnt define the term, or defend its usage.

Here's a quick primer on economic terminology: The term "third world" was coined decades ago, and has since been discredited. The set of nations described as third world, were later described as "developing" and even later as "emerging markets". Non economists(you have to assume most people here fall in that category) use all three terms loosely to mean the same set of nations(and because they arent economist, such loose usage is condoned). There IS a set of criteria based on per capita GDP and the HDI among others, that defines "third world, developing, emerging etc". 'Asian Tigers' is a term coined by the press, and doesnt form part of the classification system taht divides countries into emerging markets and so on.

Brazil, Turkey, China and Malaysia are part of the "developing" world, once called the "third world". Bahrain is one notch above Barbados and three notches above Equitorial Guinea in the HDI index created by the UN. Even though its per capita GDP is higher than most developing economies, its performance on other criteria put it closer to the developing world than to the developed world. However, this is arguable

Now, what was your point?

[Odyss]

Originally posted by zfh10

Where?

Read BuonoBruttooC...'s generally illinformed post above for list of countries. Add to that India, which is bidding for a race. Also while you're at it, google for bernie's comments on races and audiences moving away from Europe.

Bernie has his reasons ofcourse to put pressure on Eurpoean race tracks, but still. Besides anyone with even an elementary knowledge of whats happening in teh world will know that new parts of the world and new markets are opening up, that will compete for attention with older markets.

[zfh10]

Originally posted by Odyss


Read BuonoBruttooC...'s generally illinformed post above for list of countries. Add to that India, which is bidding for a race. Also while you're at it, google for bernie's comments on races and audiences moving away from Europe.

Bernie has his reasons ofcourse to put pressure on Eurpoean race tracks, but still. Besides anyone with even an elementary knowledge of whats happening in teh world will know that new parts of the world and new markets are opening up, that will compete for attention with older markets.

Yes, we all know that Bernie and some team bosses want to move F1 to other countries too, but I just wondered about your statement that more races will be going to "third world" countries. India and Turkey are about the only ones I think could possibly fit the term "third world". Malaysia and China - not IMO. For starters communist states were the so-called "second world" countries - so there goes China. Anyway...
"Moving races away from Europe" and "moving races to third world countries" are two quite different things in my book. Enough splitting hairs though!

[Odyss]

Originally posted by zfh10

Yes, we all know that Bernie and some team bosses want to move F1 to other countries too, but I just wondered about your statement that more races will be going to "third world" countries. India and Turkey are about the only ones I think could possibly fit the term "third world". Malaysia and China - not IMO. For starters communist states were the so-called "second world" countries - so there goes China. Anyway...
"Moving races away from Europe" and "moving races to third world countries" are two quite different things in my book. Enough splitting hairs though!

"Communist countries were the so-called second world??" No.

The classification had nothing to do with political or economic systems, it was merely a reflection of living standards and incomes of nations. So, there was no lumping of "communist countries" under a single category. China's per capita GDP puts it squarely in the "developing world". When you divide Chinas GDP, its amazing growth notwithstanding, by 1.3 bln. people you get a smaller per capita GDP than the positive press about Chinas growth might suggest. So a race in China is a race in the third world.

This a good time to move back to discussing F1 though!

[HSJ]

Originally posted by RedIsTheColour
Going back a few posts, there is no comparison between Schumi's off at Brazil and Alonso's crash. Schumi aquaplaned on a river, Alonso kept it flat out regardless of the flags. Brazil is a joke of a race, third world personified. As Alonso hurt neither himself or anyone else, and drives in a sport way short of seat-of-the-pants characters, it should be chalked down to the learning curve. I really hope he inherits the Ferrari, he's got the guts.

That's pretty thick. You're saying that we should reward the kind of driving FA did at Interlagos. Additionally the old aquaplaning excuse for MS. Funny, but when you actually watch the race from tape you can see RB in an identical car going through that same place without going off just less than a second before MS (or was it after MS? in any case they were right behind each other, but only MS went off). How was it possible for RB to keep it on track then? The water level could not have changed THAT much in a few tenths of a second. If it was aquaplaning RB should have shown at least some difficulty with staying on track, but he was fine, no sign of any problems.

[zfh10]

Originally posted by Odyss
"Communist countries were the so-called second world??" No.

The classification had nothing to do with political or economic systems, it was merely a reflection of living standards and incomes of nations. So, there was no lumping of "communist countries" under a single category. China's per capita GDP puts it squarely in the "developing world". When you divide Chinas GDP, its amazing growth notwithstanding, by 1.3 bln. people you get a smaller per capita GDP than the positive press about Chinas growth might suggest. So a race in China is a race in the third world.

This a good time to move back to discussing F1 though!

Hmmm, you are quite wrong. I can't let this one go. Even though this is quite OT, I think you should read a little more about the topic. The '1st/2nd/3rd world' terminology, although a little sketchy in origin, IS quite fimly centred on economic prosperity and political regimes. (This takes me back to my university days. I'm quite pleased that I have retained this info!) I have even hunted out a webpage for you...
http://www.nationson...d_countries.htm
Send me a PM if you wish me to further enlighten you!

[Sir Frank]

We might as well let this thread be closed, shall we? I mean winter testing is over and done with.

[Ghostrider]

Originally posted by Sir Frank
We might as well let this thread be closed, shall we? I mean winter testing is over and done with.

I don't see the word "winter testing" in the thread topic.

[Menace]

Originally posted by Sir Frank
We might as well let this thread be closed, shall we? I mean winter testing is over and done with.

It's turned into a flame fest. What more can you expect at the start of one of the most hyped seasons in terms of competition.

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by Menace


It's turned into a flame fest. What more can you expect at the start of one of the most hyped seasons in terms of competition.

If its "hyped", that means it should be an easier season ... ... ( a reference to something about a driver and him being hyped ... not sure what thread it came from now to think of it)

Weather report for Melbourne: cool change on Thursday, only 24 degrees on Saturday ... BS weather?? If its true (and Melbourne forecasts are not) then we won't know about BS tyres and the heat until a bit later.

[Ghostrider]

If we could keep the thread to the topic, it might be a point of keeping it.

Otherwise the administrators might as well close it.

[davegp3]

Astala vista baby

[Mox]

Originally posted by HBoss


In our defense, those things (I can't remember them exactly) which were reported to have been stolen from the pits/boxes some years ago were actually misplaced. My memory is vague about it, but I'm sure the theft was dismissed after some investigation.

I do believe there was a story about some crew-members being held at gun-point while stuff was being robbed, so not all was misplaced.

[Clatter]

Originally posted by HSJ


That's pretty thick. You're saying that we should reward the kind of driving FA did at Interlagos. Additionally the old aquaplaning excuse for MS. Funny, but when you actually watch the race from tape you can see RB in an identical car going through that same place without going off just less than a second before MS (or was it after MS? in any case they were right behind each other, but only MS went off). How was it possible for RB to keep it on track then? The water level could not have changed THAT much in a few tenths of a second. If it was aquaplaning RB should have shown at least some difficulty with staying on track, but he was fine, no sign of any problems.

The spread of water could change dramatically in those tenths of a second. The fact that RB had gone through the water shortly before could easily have been the catalyst that caused MS to aquaplane. Had he been slightly furthur back he may have gone through without a problem.

From memory I think most of the cars that went off there were following closely behind another and the first ones through were generally ok.

[Racer Joe]

Originally posted by HSJ


Additionally the old aquaplaning excuse for MS. Funny, but when you actually watch the race from tape you can see RB in an identical car going through that same place without going off just less than a second before MS (or was it after MS? in any case they were right behind each other, but only MS went off). How was it possible for RB to keep it on track then? The water level could not have changed THAT much in a few tenths of a second. If it was aquaplaning RB should have shown at least some difficulty with staying on track, but he was fine, no sign of any problems.

Why would aquaplaning need to be an excuse?? Why would one car's safe passage even a second before preclude the possibility that the following car, perhaps going through on a different line at a different speed from falling foul of aquaplaning? Or maybe because Ruby was so close behind (less than 7ths) he managed to take advantage of the slightly drier surface where Schumi has swept some of the surface water off momentarily?

Another thing. Alain Prost went off in the warmup lap at Imola in 1991 clearly aquaplaning off. I don't remember another car going off at the same spot on that occasion.

[Odyss]

Originally posted by zfh10

Hmmm, you are quite wrong. I can't let this one go. Even though this is quite OT, I think you should read a little more about the topic. The '1st/2nd/3rd world' terminology, although a little sketchy in origin, IS quite fimly centred on economic prosperity and political regimes. (This takes me back to my university days. I'm quite pleased that I have retained this info!) I have even hunted out a webpage for you...
http://www.nationson...d_countries.htm
Send me a PM if you wish me to further enlighten you!

Well, you might like to think Im wrong, and you're getting specious in your keeness to prove that.

From the link you posted:

A rough probably outdated model of the geopolitical world from the time of the cold war.
There is no official definition of the terms of the first, second, and the third world. [/B]Following OWNO's explanation of the terms[B].

You might want to believe Owno, feel free to do that.

Here's what I posted, earlier:

"Here's a quick primer on economic terminology: The term "third world" was coined decades ago, and has since been discredited. The set of nations described as third world, were later described as "developing" and even later as "emerging markets".

I could post more credible and contemprary definations that classify China as an "emerging market". The Economist Magazine, and Morgan Stanley's index, both classify China as an emerging market , a term that corresponds to the archaic term "third world". But that would be pointless. This is after all an F1 BB. My knowldege of economics might be a bit more contemprary that yours, mainly cuz Im still studying it in grad school. That might explain this understanding. I wish I could offer to enlighten you, but I have things to get back to. Bye!

[zfh10]

Originally posted by Odyss
"Here's a quick primer on economic terminology: The term "third world" was coined decades ago, and has since been discredited. The set of nations described as third world, were later described as "developing" and even later as "emerging markets".

I'm not defending the terminology - I think it is outdated too. I just thought that perhaps you were a little loose and vague in saying that "more races were going to third world countries".
'Nuff said!

[Daniel Lester]

Originally posted by Racer Joe


You think Fernando had a look around the track to check if he could run at full chat under full course yellow before doing so? That was not a judgement call on his behalf on whether he would put anyone other than himself at risk. It just so happened to be the case on that occasion. A coincidence. If he can't see the wheel/tyre assembly he hit, how could he tell if there wasn't a silly marshall bending over picking up a piece of debris?



I agree.

More of an ill informed judement call. I'm not saying he was right to do what he did, but the end result was only damaging to him and the length of the race. The marshalls were in the right place, Webber was clear of the track and the safety car was yet to pick up all the cars. Sure all of that wasn't within his control or knowledge but thankfully he should have learnt his lesson the hard way and adding a further punishment is/was unlikely to make much difference to his state of mind, besides I'd hope someone had a quiet word or two to him afterwards as well to let him know about it.

HSJ you clearly have little concept of aquaplaning, just because 1 driver makes it doesn't mean another will. Montoya and Pizzonia went off within seconds of each other but everyone else made it. Button went off after MS and everyone before and after him made it. Aquaplaning isn't just a speed related, it has as much to do with set up, tyre wear, the angle you catch the water, where you brake/ where you lift off etc. Maybe MS was going to fast given the double yellows, but given all the variables involved in aquaplaning you can't be certain.

[maclaren]

Originally posted by Clatter
The spread of water could change dramatically in those tenths of a second. The fact that RB had gone through the water shortly before could easily have been the catalyst that caused MS to aquaplane. Had he been slightly furthur back he may have gone through without a problem.

From memory I think most of the cars that went off there were following closely behind another and the first ones through were generally ok.

Aqua planing is not an excuse. It's a mistake by the driver. When PPL say Michael aquaplaned out of the circuit and it was not in his hands they admit he made a mistake. Simple.

[Ghostrider]

Of course aquaplanning is a mistake, not a big one, but still a mistake.

There were drivers on Bridgestone that day that day that made it through and took the big win.

[Daniel Lester]

Disagree entirely, if you miss your braking point and hit a wall it's your mistake, you hit the brakes and the discs explode and you hit the wall it's mechanical failure. I think aquaplaning falls into the latter category, 9/10 the tyres clear the water and you get some grip the 10th time through the tyre(s) loses contact with the surface and round you go. Quite unpredictable and dependant on the water depth and tyre tread on any given section of track.

If aquaplaning is a mistake then both Minardis, MS, Button, JPM, Pizzonia, Webber, Trulli and Ralf all made mistakes in that corner (trulli and ralf were early in the race). Some survived and others crunched the wall. But for 9/20 drivers (add to that Heidfeld, Panis and Firman retired early in the race before the problem was as apparent, so effectively 9/17) on either tyre type to make a mistake seems a little unusual.

Schumi makes a number of driving errors or errors in judgement that have been done to death (like Jerez 97, Alonso at Silverstone etc) but Brazil wasn't one of them.

[Ghostrider]

Originally posted by Daniel Lester
If aquaplaning is a mistake then both Minardis, MS, Button, JPM, Pizzonia, Webber, Trulli and Ralf all made mistakes in that corner (trulli and ralf were early in the race). Some survived and others crunched the wall. But for 9/20 drivers (add to that Heidfeld, Panis and Firman retired early in the race before the problem was as apparent, so effectively 9/17) on either tyre type to make a mistake seems a little unusual.

I am not saying it is a big mistake or any big deal, but of course it is a mistake. If you go slower you make it. Like you say it, it is coincidence who aqualplans or not, do you say the same when driving your own car? I don't think so.

[Racer Joe]

Originally posted by Daniel Lester



More of an ill informed judement call. I'm not saying he was right to do what he did, but the end result was only damaging to him and the length of the race. The marshalls were in the right place, Webber was clear of the track and the safety car was yet to pick up all the cars. Sure all of that wasn't within his control or knowledge but thankfully he should have learnt his lesson the hard way and adding a further punishment is/was unlikely to make much difference to his state of mind, besides I'd hope someone had a quiet word or two to him afterwards as well to let him know about it.

Regardless of the circumstances, going at close to full pace under a full course yellow lacks judgement. Trying to catch up to the leaders by keeping up close to racing speed lacks judgement. A lot of things were outside his control and it was needed of him to do his bit to control his speed. Like I have said earlier he has learnt his lesson and I have no wish to stick this on him till the end of days. But he did deserve a DSQ.

It wasn't an ill-informed judgement call. Just ill judgement.

[maclaren]

Originally posted by Daniel Lester
Disagree entirely, if you miss your braking point and hit a wall it's your mistake, you hit the brakes and the discs explode and you hit the wall it's mechanical failure. I think aquaplaning falls into the latter category, 9/10 the tyres clear the water and you get some grip the 10th time through the tyre(s) loses contact with the surface and round you go.

Similarly, if you drive a superfast croner on the very limit in dry weather you may make it 9 times and crash in 10th. I don't much of a difference in traction breaking on dry tarmac or aquaplaning in wet. If you enter the corner too aggressively you may not make it through 10 times of 10.

I rarely hear about talkin of bad luck when a driver spins in dry. Of course both are lbad uck into some degree, but the driver makes his own luck there.

[MortenF1]

B-A-R the only team scheduled to test in Valencia in week 11??
I would've guessed on all the big teams to be present. Probably not an updated list...

[Mat]

Originally posted by Ghostrider


I am not saying it is a big mistake or any big deal, but of course it is a mistake. If you go slower you make it. Like you say it, it is coincidence who aqualplans or not, do you say the same when driving your own car? I don't think so.

Now thats where your missing the point. Aquaplanning is a very strange occurance, and can sometimes occue even more easily if you are going slower as you would not have enough downforce. Aquaplannign is very much a thing of chance.

[maclaren]

Originally posted by Mat
Now thats where your missing the point. Aquaplanning is a very strange occurance, and can sometimes occue even more easily if you are going slower as you would not have enough downforce. Aquaplannign is very much a thing of chance.

Clearly a driving error

[black magic]

watch the replay.

the guy just starts doing 360's with no change in direction at any stage. indicates either ms didn't care and made no attempt to catch the spin or more likely he had absolutely no control in the situation due to the aquaplaning. even the other drivers admitted conditions at that corner were changing by the lap.

said above. ms has and wil make mistakes but that aint one of them.

or do you prescribe to the jackie stewart "in my day people didn't make mistakes like he does", ignoring the vastly different safety aspect of racing today