19 replies to this topic

[antonvrs]

It's my understanding that the Voisin Laboratoire which competed in the French Grand Prix in 1921(?) had a six cylinder sleeve valve engine. If this is so, is this the only sleeve valve Grand Prix car?
Have there been any/others?
Anton

[robert dick]

The Voisin C6 took part in the 1923 GP de l'ACF at Tours, had a 6-cylinder 2-litre Knight engine (72/110 mm). A similar 2.36-litre engine was available between 1926 and 1928 in the production type C11. The C6 GP car had a wheelbase of 272 cm, front track 135 cm, rear track only 75 cm.
Voisin built other racing cars for the Grand Prix de Tourisme, the C8 which was a 2-litre 4-cylinder (76/110 mm), and the C9 which was a 4-litre 4-cylinder (95/140 mm).

A Mercedes-Knight (4-cylinder 100/130 mm) took part in the Indianapolis 500 in 1913, driven by Théo Pilette.

See also the Itala thread started on 15 June 2003.

[Geoff E]

Originally posted by robert dick
See also the Itala thread started on 15 June 2003.

This one:- http://forums.atlasf...&threadid=58097

[antonvrs]

Originally posted by robert dick
The Voisin C6 took part in the 1923 GP de l'ACF at Tours, had a 6-cylinder 2-litre Knight engine (72/110 mm). A similar 2.36-litre engine was available between 1926 and 1928 in the production type C11. The C6 GP car had a wheelbase of 272 cm, front track 135 cm, rear track only 75 cm.
Voisin built other racing cars for the Grand Prix de Tourisme, the C8 which was a 2-litre 4-cylinder (76/110 mm), and the C9 which was a 4-litre 4-cylinder (95/140 mm).

A Mercedes-Knight (4-cylinder 100/130 mm) took part in the Indianapolis 500 in 1913, driven by Théo Pilette.

See also the Itala thread started on 15 June 2003.

Thank you very much, Mr. Dick.
You must have quite a library!
Anton

[Aanderson]

Originally posted by robert dick
The Voisin C6 took part in the 1923 GP de l'ACF at Tours, had a 6-cylinder 2-litre Knight engine (72/110 mm). A similar 2.36-litre engine was available between 1926 and 1928 in the production type C11. The C6 GP car had a wheelbase of 272 cm, front track 135 cm, rear track only 75 cm.
Voisin built other racing cars for the Grand Prix de Tourisme, the C8 which was a 2-litre 4-cylinder (76/110 mm), and the C9 which was a 4-litre 4-cylinder (95/140 mm).

A Mercedes-Knight (4-cylinder 100/130 mm) took part in the Indianapolis 500 in 1913, driven by Théo Pilette.

See also the Itala thread started on 15 June 2003.

Ahh, the Knight patented sleeve-valve system! While I can't quote any detailed sources here, jsut haven't had any reason to research any Knight-system engines, but Knight's sleeve-valve system was just about the best-known, and most commercially viable system. American Knight-engined cars included the Stearns-Knight, Willys-Knight (the two most famous), and in Europe, both Mercedes and Minerva used Knight valve systems (Mercedes-Knight and Minivera-Knight.

Knight's sleeve-valve system was created simply due to the tendency of early poppet valves to leak and break under service, however, it was not without its faults, the major one being severe wear if the rather primitive motor oil of the era wasn't changed right on schedule, and the engine not maintained in perfect tune. The sleeve valve depended on very close tolerance machining, and a very clean environment to maintain compression. The smallest bits of carbon (from the somewhat primitive gasoline's incomplete combustion), and the normal "sludge" from the crankcase could wear out these valves very quickly indeed.

John North Willys, then the President of Willys-Overland, and maker of the Willys-Knight (which outlasted all the other Knight licensees in the US) boldly pronounced around 1929 that within 2 years, all cars would have Knight engines (the Knight Patent was due to expire about 1931 or so), and Willys-Knight was seriously trying to challenge Packard and Cadillac in the luxury car market of the day. However, by 1932, Willys-Overland was "on the ropes" financially, the luxury car market was greatly diminished (and disappearing quickly for the small independent automakers), and the Willys-Knight was discontinued, Willys-Overland to never again enter the luxury market.

Willys soldiered on, however, with the Model 77, the famed little 1933 Willys coupes, roadsters, sedans and pickups which became famous in the 1960's as the basis for many a gas-class drag car. The Model 77 was powered by? Why, Willys own little 4cylinder poppet-valved engine they'd designed for the Whippet in 1927, which by the end of the 1930's was branded the Willys Go-Devil engine of Americar fame, but became even more famous (and numerous with almost 400,000 built!) as the powerplant for the ubiquitous Willys MB Jeep.

In the end, poppet valves ruled, the only sleeve-valved internal combustion 4-stroke engines done after the end of the Minerva and Willys Knight cars being the Napier aircraft engines of the late 1930's and on into WW-II. (at least that I know of).

Art Anderson

[dolomite]

Originally posted by Aanderson


In the end, poppet valves ruled, the only sleeve-valved internal combustion 4-stroke engines done after the end of the Minerva and Willys Knight cars being the Napier aircraft engines of the late 1930's and on into WW-II. (at least that I know of).

Art Anderson

Art, the Bristol Aeroplane Company developed various types of sleeve-valve radial aero engines from the mid 1930s onwards and these were produced in large numbers during WW2.

[GIGLEUX]

Of course there were other GP cars with sleeve valve engines: the Schmid with a Rolland-Pilainchassis and specific 6 cyl. engine. This car was due at the 1923 ACF GP driven by Goux but did not appear. In 1924, always for he ACF GP at Lyons to cars were entered driven by Foresti and Goux. Foresti crashed during practise and dns; Goux retired on lap 19 with the radiator of the car in nasty state. Goux retired in San Sebastian GP for "mechanical" reasons and in Italian GP both cars finished Goux 5th and Foresti 6 th but they were more than one hour behind Ascari's Alfa Romeo.
In 1925 Albert Guyot of Delage and Rolland-Pilain fame built a car with a 6 cyl sleeve valve engine following the Burt-McCollum principle. At last he entered the Italian GP but retired early. In 1926 he realised three 1500cc cars and entered them at Indianapolis always without success.
In Formula libre we had during the twenties the big 18 HP 3800 cc Peugeots which raced with success. They were issued from stock engines usued in the top of range luxurious cars from Sochaux.

[m.tanney]

  Didn't Keith Duckworth do some experiments with sleeve valves?

[wibblywobbly]

You forgot to explain how this works! Is it called something by another name? One I might know? Pictures? Diagrams? Please?

[Rainer Nyberg]

Explanation how it works found at : http://www.4referenc...eeve_valve.html

Didn't have the time to find any decent pic on the net....but I have several good ones in my home library...

If some one doesn't beat me to it, I can try to make scan after the night shift when I get home...

[Aanderson]

Originally posted by dolomite


Art, the Bristol Aeroplane Company developed various types of sleeve-valve radial aero engines from the mid 1930s onwards and these were produced in large numbers during WW2.

Right! I couldn't remember if any other aero engine makers tried it, but of course, I did disclaim any solid knowledge of the aero engine thing, simply because I'm not all that into that kind of engine.

However, I think it's appropriate to note that "sleeve valves" had their genesis in steam engines, where various types of sliding valves and sleeve valves ruled for nearly the entire development era of reciprocating steam. Various railroads in the US tried poppet valves (the normal automotive valve is correctly termed a "poppet valve", but with little success, all poppet valved steam locomotives being either scrapped early on, or given the more conventional (for steam power) valve chests, using sliding valve systems, probably due to the very large sizes of valves being used, along with the need to be able to adjust the valve timing continuously for fuel and steam economy, particularly with stationary steam engines (such as in factories and power stations).

Art Anderson

[Aanderson]

Originally posted by wibblywobbly
You forgot to explain how this works! Is it called something by another name? One I might know? Pictures? Diagrams? Please?

Sleeve valves worked in at least two different ways: One, and the simplest, was simply to have a rod or bar of steel, moving up and down in a cylinder, between the intake or exhaust manifold, the machined bar of steel (I think these were always made of high-grade steel), with a port (hole) cut cross-ways through it, and the sleeve or cylinder having a corresponding hole or port on each side, so that when the bar moved into position such that the hole in it corresponded with the matching ports on either side of its sleeve or cylinder, air could pass through both the sleeve and the rod inside of it, on its way into the combustion chamber (or out of the combustion chamber in the case of the exhaust side).

There was, or at least I can visualize it, where the movable "rod" was in fact a hollow tube, with a port on just one side, that passed alongside a matching port in its sleeve, the intake mixture then passing through this hollow, movable tube through the matching ports into the combustion chamber, or out of it, if it were the exhaust valve, a system that would have been doomed to failure almost immediately.

As it was, sleeve valves, given their need for absolute precision, in order to maintain any sort of reliable compression, failed miserably in most all automotive applications (on the street for sure), due to the buildup of carbon and other deposits, which either "gummed up" the works (much as with many early poppet valve lifters), or worse, wore away first the edges of the ports on both sleeve and moving valve, to the point of leakage. This certainly would have been a serious problem on the exhaust side, given the tremendous heat generated, being passed through both sleeve and valve. Clean oil would have had to be the absolute requirement, along with regular replacement of the moving parts in order to have a reliable system, something that pleasure car owners would not have stood still for very long (and didn't!). In an aero engine, where constant high levels of maintenance would have been the order of the day, and certainly in a racing engine where teardowns between races were the norm, it would have worked reasonably well.

Why no sleeve valve systems today? Simply put, I think it was the plain fact that poppet valves work much better, and with well engineered cooling systems, the mushroom head of the valve gets cooled constantly when in contact with the valve seat, and modern valve stems having built-in cooling, with such methods as sodium filled in a hollow stem seem to do the job, where a sleeve valve had to contend with no direct metal-to-metal contact all along its length, there being the need for at least a minute film of oil between the moving parts, which couldn't have helped all that much. Also, by their very nature, a sleeve valve probably could not pass nearly as much intake air/fuel, or exhaust gases as quickly as a poppet valve, and the opening distance could likely not have been nearly as adjustable by altering cams as easily, regardless of theory. Further, I imagine that sleeve-valve engines were in reality little more than sidevalve arrangements, much the same as any "flathead" engines, thus lacking the ability to create serious "wedge" , pent-roof, or "hemi" head combustion chambers as with OHV or OHC poppet valve setups. This would not have been a serious problem in a large-displacement, relatively low rpm engine, such as the huge 4 and 6-cylinder luxury car engines of the 'teens or 'twenties, or the very large displacement aircraft piston engines through WW-II, but in a relatively small displacement racing engine? Failed technology, it seems to me.

Art Anderson

[Geoff E]

Originally posted by Aanderson
However, I think it's appropriate to note that "sleeve valves" had their genesis in steam engines, where various types of sliding valves and sleeve valves ruled for nearly the entire development era of reciprocating steam. Various railroads in the US tried poppet valves (the normal automotive valve is correctly termed a "poppet valve", but with little success, all poppet valved steam locomotives being either scrapped early on, or given the more conventional (for steam power) valve chests, using sliding valve systems, probably due to the very large sizes of valves being used, along with the need to be able to adjust the valve timing continuously for fuel and steam economy, particularly with stationary steam engines (such as in factories and power stations).

Several rail locomotives were built/rebuilt with poppet valves in the UK. I think they were neither conspicuous successes nor failures. Only a single locomotive "Duke of Gloucester" ever showed the true potential of poppet valves and this was almost thirty years after it was originally withdrawn from service. During rebuilding, certain shortcomings were ironed out and it produced some record-breaking performances:- http://www.dukeofglo....uk/concise.htm

[dolomite]

A little Googling and I came up with:

An explanation of sleeve valve operating principles

Some pictures of Bristol sleeve-valve aero engines

Video showing sleeve-valve operation in a model engine

[Pils1989]

Thanks for the sleeve-valves info, the video shows it well and, now, I know what the Knight part of Mercedes-Knight means:)

[Philip Whiteman]

Sleeve valves and side valves are worlds apart. Harry Ricardo's great book The high-speed Internal Combustion Engine will tell any reader quite how much the sleeve valve promised: excellent cylinder flow; central plug location; low octane requirement; high mean effective pressure... the lot.

As I metioned on another thread, there was a great buzz of activity on sleeve valves in the 1970s. Mike Hewland was one of those who built such an engine. He told me that making the sleeves was not nearly so problematic as the great Napier-saved-by-Bristol Aero Engines legend would have you believe (duing WWII Napier could not make the Sabre reliable, until the Ministry for Aircraft Production insisted Bristol lend their expertise).

However, developing sleeve valve engines for racing cars is another matter: the advantage they offer over the four-valve, pent-roof chamber with central plugs (rather than, say, the R-R Merlin's side-mounted pair) must be marginal. However, the shape of a high compression four-valve chamber is not ideal - lots of surface area through which heat is lost, and a less-than-ideal flame path - so perhaps the sleeve-valve engine could still offer advantage there...

[wibblywobbly]

Thanks, you guys! I completely understand, now.

The video was great, but direct linking to it is a "No - No". You should always link to the page which contains the video file, so that the bandwidth isn't eaten up.

[dolomite]

Well I don't see what difference it makes to the bandwidth, but I've edited the link accordingly.

[wibblywobbly]

Originally posted by dolomite
Well I don't see what difference it makes to the bandwidth, but I've edited the link accordingly.

I'm sure the owner of the site where the video is hosted, will graciously thank you, as I am doing now.

I'm glad you posted it, btw. There's always something new to learn, when I visit this place.

[robert dick]

Description of the 1910 Panhard "sans-soupapes" engine :
http://rbmn02.waika9...otion_1910.html

the corresponding advertisement :
http://rbmn02.waika9...te_SS_1912.html

and the 1914 catalogue :
http://rbmn09.waika9...gue_1914-0.html