35 replies to this topic

[Brun]

Right, I've just been using a 7-hour trainride to catch up on my 1930s-knowledge. About time, I've been way to quiet in this forum for way to long!

Now, for something complete interesting.

In Racing the Silver Arrows, Chris Nixon describes a record run by Hans Stuck that I've never heard of. Apparently, Felix Todt (the Nazi responsible for building the autobahnen) made a bet with Hitler (the überNazi) in 1936 about the speed that could be gained on the new highways. They closed down one side of the entire Berlin-Munich autobahn (!!) because Todt bet that the distance between these cities could be covered in less than three hours, thanks to the new stretch of highway. This highway, by the way, was the first German autobahn that span such a long distance. Today, it still exists and is the A9.

Hans Stuck was invited to make the run in an Auto Union. They had a fuel and tyre depot set up 250 km south of Berlin, which must have been somewhere near today's crossing of the A9 and A4 autobahnen (Hermsdorfer Kreuz). Makes sense - if you draw a line from the Zwickau rennabteilung to the A9, you end up around there. In other words, they kept the service point as close to the Auto Union works as possible.

Nixon says that Stuck covered the entire 420 km in 2 hours and 17 minutes, which makes an average speed of 184 km/h. During his run he was escorted by Hermann Göring flying above in his plane.

I'd like to know more about this run, of course. Also, there is an error in the story: Berlin and Munich are 580 km apart, not 420. However, Nuremberg is about 440 km from Berlin and was of course a Nazi capital. So I'd guess that the run was between Berlin and Nuremberg.

Anyone care to elaborate?

[Holger Merten]

AFAIK without my sources, Stuck used a Horch, perhaps a Horch 830.

[Michael Müller]

Believe the most powerful road car was the 670 V12 with a top speed of 140 kmh. The A9 in some parts is rather twisty, so flat out driving was not always possible, so average of 184 kmh - also considered the service stop - would mean top speed in excess of 200 kmh. Even with a special engine in a road car, the chassis would make such a run into a kamikaze action.

[Holger Merten]

Don't forget, the 500 series had also a straight 8 cylinder engine with 100hp later a 120hp. But both cars were very heavy. So therefore I'm sure it was a 830 series. I don't remember the year, but wouldn't it be possible they used a Horch 830 which was also run in the 2000 km Deutschlandfahrt?

[Michael Müller]

The 830 in standard form had 92 HP and a top speed of only 120 kmh...

[Holger Merten]

I know, but with the special 2000 km body it was faster. And the Horch 670 series and the 850 series were both to drive badly over 90km/h

[Michael Müller]

Holger, as said above, 184 average would mean a top in excess of 200 kmh, which even for a 830 would have been a ride on a canonball. By the way, I know the V8 engine quite well, worked on it 20 years ago, still extremely oldfashioned layout, to squeeze out more than 120 HP would be a miracle.

[Holger Merten]

Michael, I'll give up and will come back later with the right answer, after looking in my sources.

[Henk]

1936??

Construction of the “A9“ was completed in November 1938

In 1936 only 164 km would be available for a record:
http://www.autobahn-...geschichte.html

[Brun]

Originally posted by Henk
1936??

Construction of the “A9“ was completed in November 1938

In 1936 only 164 km would be available for a record:
http://www.autobahn-...geschichte.html

Well, it took quite a lot of years to build. So it's possible that even those stretches of road that were still uncompleted in 1936 were already good for a record run. For example, one year later, in 1937, they opened up another 88 km, so that piece should've been drivable by late 1936.

Also, the maps on that site show that there was a 'grundnetz' of normal one-lane highways by 1936 that would enable such a run between Berlin and Munich/Nürnberg.

[hans stuck]

I have no recollection of making any such record run...

[Holger Merten]

In 1938 a Horch 830 with a 3.8L-V8-enigine, 92hp, driven by Hans Stuck made an average speed of 136km/h for the distance from Berlin to Munich.

[Brun]

Originally posted by Holger Merten
In 1938 a Horch 830 with a 3.8L-V8-enigine, 92hp, driven by Hans Stuck made an average speed of 136km/h for the distance from Berlin to Munich.

Well, couldn't that be a different event? It would mean that Stuck needed way over 4 hours to cover that distance. I can't imagine Nixon being wrong about the bet (3 hours or less), the distance AND the average speed. And he also emphasizes the fact that the Auto Union that Stuck drove didn't resemble anything normally in use on an autobahn.

In other words: it would mean that Nixon had made things up, which doesn't sound likely since his book is quite well-researched? Any thoughts on this?

[Michael Müller]

Originally posted by Holger Merten
In 1938 a Horch 830 with a 3.8L-V8-enigine, 92hp, driven by Hans Stuck made an average speed of 136km/h for the distance from Berlin to Munich.

Well, with a well-balanced engine plus a streamlined body a top speed of 140 kmh may have been possible, and such speed on most parts of the A9 could be driven flat out. If the fuel stop was fast enough, the 136 kmh looks realistic. But that's still far away from 183 kmh, which in my opinion could only by achieved by a racing car. Also the report that the whole Autobahn was closed for public traffic tends into this direction. On the other side, if the route was not finished by 1936, there was no reason for Todt to prove anything to his boss yet.

[Holger Merten]

The record was done on 25, november 1938 with a Horch 930 V, the successor of the 830 over a distance of 529.9 km with an average speed of 136 km/h. The car was equipped with an autobahn-gear (special 5th gear for autobahn runs, which was very popular for german cars during the late 30s.) I found nothing about Stuck as driver.

[Michael Müller]

Wasn't there are 930V Prototype with a rathern futuristic bodywork? With hand-washing tub in the fender?
And are you sure about 4-speed + overdrive? Or was it 3 plus o?

[Holger Merten]

This was the the 930 S (Stromlinie), which was built in two prototypes for the 1939 Berlin autoshow.

And the 930 V had a 4 + overdrive.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by Brun
...I'd like to know more about this run, of course. Also, there is an error in the story: Berlin and Munich are 580 km apart, not 420. However, Nuremberg is about 440 km from Berlin and was of course a Nazi capital. So I'd guess that the run was between Berlin and Nuremberg.

Anyone care to elaborate?

On page 122 of his book Tagebuch eines Rennfahrers, Hans Stuck wrote in 1967 what has been retold in Chris Nixon’s book. Stuck wrote that Fritz Todt, General Inspector for German Road Matters, in one of his talks with Hitler had praised again and again in which short time great distances could now be covered on the Autobahn. "Berlin-München in three hours straight!" Hitler was skeptical and so they made a bet. Todt then came to Stuck and asked him to do the record time in the racing car. Hermann Göring organized a Ju 52 plane, which was to accompany Stuck on his drive from Berlin to München. Stuck wrote that the plane arrived in München only five minutes after him. The 420 km, 250 km and 2h17m time is all given in Stuck’s book, which probably served as source for Nixon’s story.

[Holger Merten]

Welcome back Hans.

Yes, you are right. After Bruns second effort I looked once again in Stucks autobiografie and found that text in the book Zweimal Hans Stuck.

[Brun]

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
The 420 km, 250 km and 2h17m time is all given in Stuck’s book, which probably served as source for Nixon’s story.

Interesting, interesting! Hans, could you scan that part for me?

A 250 km/h average would be right since the distance is about 580 km instead of 420. That would mean that Stuck still today holds the record on that road... can't imagine anyone doing over 250 average on the A9 today.

[Holger Merten]

Hans in my book are some words about a stop south of Berlin. Do you have anything in your book?

[Hans Etzrodt]

Yes, I will do the scans for both of you, once this machine is working right. My vidio display is acting up again. I was already for 11 days without computer. Will have to bring the machine back to the geeks tomorrow morning. Probably a bad vidio card, or what?

[Brun]

Thanks Hans. Take your time, we can wait

[Holger Merten]

We? :yawn:

[Brun]

Originally posted by Holger Merten
We? :yawn:

Yes, Holger, we We don't want to stress poor Hans.

[Holger Merten]

You are right.

I thought he is back on the track.

[Pavel Lifintsev]

Originally posted by Holger Merten
This was the the 930 S (Stromlinie), which was built in two prototypes for the 1939 Berlin autoshow.

Sorry, this is quite unrelated, but as far as I know there were a few 930S built in 1945 by Russian GIs from pre-war spares kits. Exact number of cars is unknown to me.

[Brun]

Originally posted by .ru

Sorry, this is quite unrelated, but as far as I know there were a few 930S built in 1945 by Russian GIs from pre-war spares kits. Exact number of cars is unknown to me.

You're right, the Russians ordered the Auto Union works to complete a few cars right after the war. They used leftover parts from prewar production and less than ten cars were made, only five or six if I recall correctly.

[Holger Merten]

In 1945 three cars were build from existing parts. And in 1946/47 six cars with modified bodies were build - with a less elegant front and without washbasin.

So here some pictures îf that innovative car. One car is still existing and I got the chance to drive that one my time by Audi Tradtion.
Here some impressions:

[Pavel Lifintsev]

Great pics, Holger! Especially the last one, with the wash-stand! I heard, Major Severyants, who managed those GIs, liked that thing the most!

[Holger Merten]

Sure is, the 1939 Horch 930s were equipped with that washbasin (cold and hot water!).

Perhaps the three other cars from 1945, build from existing parts had that washbasin too. But the cars from 1946/47 did not have definitely a wash basin.
Accordingly we must know, from which year the Generals car originates. Any pictures?

[eldougo]

[i]Originally posted by Holger Merten [/i


[/B]

_________________________________________________

I guess i seen everthing now , And where did the wastewater go

I wonder if there is any other cars that have unusual optional extras ????????

[Holger Merten]

Sure. the Horch Jagdwagen, built for the King of Sweden in the 20, also equipped with washbasin.

[D-Type]

When I saw these pictures, one thought came into my head: "Postwar DKW 3-6". the family resemblance is incredible. Was it the same designer?

[Holger Merten]

Yes you are right, and wha later became the 3*6, was the DKW F9. This car was planned for production for 1940. So first pictures of prototypes were taken in 1939.

AU had a central design studio, here Günther Mikauwitch and Albert Locke were responsible for the streamlined design,

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by Brun


Interesting, interesting! Hans, could you scan that part for me?...

Brun,
send me an e-mail to . (I lost all e-mail addresses.)