38 replies to this topic

[Impspeed Gerry]

Hi all - I usually read TNF and rarely post, so here goes....

A bit predictable I know given my username, but I noticed that there is sometimes discussion of Mini racing on TNF, so I thought I'd try to redress the balance for the under-rated Imp. Although it's still reviled in certain ill-informed quarters (and lets face it- it was a genuine turkey in marketing terms), this marvellous design is now undergoing something of a revival. Evidence -

HSCC/HRSR championship won by Adrian Oliver for second year in a row - smashing chap, works on a very reasonable budget, son of mulitple sidecar champion Eric Oliver.

7 of us out this Sunday just gone at Anglesey circuit, including a couple of cars intended for HRSR next year, and some of this year's contenders. There could be 7 or 8 Imps out next year.

Recent magazine coverage including group derivative test in C&SC, also a picture of Imp Club honorary president Rosemary Smith at Mount Stuart- noticed she was discussed in thread on 'racing Smiths'. What a lady, always turns up to our national weekend, even if it's at some rugby club in the middle of nowhere. Just had her old works car restored, plus a replica which she intends to use in anger- she can still drive!! Pity the Imps at the Goodwood revival had problems, due to enforced hurried preparation, which is bound to re-inforce old prejudices.

Another Imp Club member Bob Allan, soon to be featured in C&SC on the Fraser GT or 'K9' . Tom Killeen designed sports racing car intended for '67 Le Mans, but never appeared. Info. on this car is VERY thin. Does anybody have any info. about the car, which Bob is endeavouring to bring back to life.....

Bob is also starting a book on Imp-based specials. Thanks to Barry Boor for PMing me on Roger Nathan's latest location in North Wales, now dealing in 4WDs - we're thinking of going to see Roger soon.

Finally, I recently rebuilt a Rawlson spaceframe which is now doing very well on the hillclimb scene. Another mystery car, the last memory anyone seems to have is of it is on its roof in a sandtrap at Brands in about 1984. Somebody once told me that it won the '82 Wendy Wools special saloon championship (or at least its class). Can anyone confirm or refute this?

Thanks everyone

Gerry

[ian senior]

About time we heard some praise for the little devil. And while we are in nostalgia mode, anyone know whether Alex Clacher, driver of the fastest Imp in the North in the 70s, is still alive and well. He used to frighten the life out of people with much more powerful cars.

[bill moffat]

I can honestly say that my Imp Sport put more smiles on my face than any other car before or since. OK it blew a few head gaskets, overheated (even when converted to front rad) and leaked fuel and oil...but fun never comes cheap..

For a dose of nostalgia dip into racingimps.com ,you will find a wealth of period photos of (as the site name suggests) racing Imps. Enjoy.

[Impspeed Gerry]

Thanks for the replies guys.

On racingimps.com, page 7 of the special saloon gallery is my old Rawlson while it was being developed and sprinted - photos taken at Curborough and Llandow in South Wales. The front page of the site features John Homewood, to whom I once spoke at great length - he claims to have won more races than anyone else at Brands, due to the number of clubbies he did, nearly every weekend in the 70s.

I've just seen the article about Bob Allen and Fraser Racing K9 in Classic and Sportscar- anybody on the forum have any knowledge about the car? You lot seem to know virtually everything else there is to know about historic racing between you!!

[jph]

I've just seen the article about Bob Allen and Fraser Racing K9 in Classic and Sportscar- anybody on the forum have any knowledge about the car? You lot seem to know virtually everything else there is to know about historic racing between you!!

Try this: esc.dl.ac.uk/Mercia/killeen_book/node16.html

[bill moffat]

Imps, Llandow..now we're seriously into my favourite territory.

Imps were few and far between at my old local circuit. Dave McCloy and the late Joe Gregory (who ultimately met with a fatal accident at Llandow) were the local hot shots in their Escorts . The old Risca Jaguars Mk 2's rumbled out of the valleys to give it their best, but were usually beaten by the TMS Wolseley Hornet. Baglan Bay Service Station entered their 3 identical purple Minis for most meetings. Gerry Marshall once turned up in his Firenza just to give us a reality check. Graham Hill raced his Datsun Bluebird there on the Tour of Britain. Jody Scheckter rolled his Escort Mexico at this old oval but still salvaged a career in motor sport..

Imps..well Simon Watson turned up for the Triplex rounds, his 50bhp Imp usually winning its class. Basil Dagge was also an intermittent attendee in his slightly more purposeful Imp...

[mickj]

This site was mentioned on 10 10ths, www.racing70s.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk It has some IMP photos and others. Very interesting

[Ian McKean]

Originally posted by bill moffat
I can honestly say that my Imp Sport put more smiles on my face than any other car before or since ...

My dear elder sister doesn't read TNF so I can reveal that she's a 57 year old girl-racer! Actually her husband bought an Apple computer a couple of years ago but it malfunctioned when he first switched it on and he had to send it off to be repaired. When it came back, the moment had passed. Disgruntled, he still hasn't switched it on. So that's how I know she won't read this post.

Anyway, I haven't been up to Blair Atholl for a couple of years so I still haven't had a go in her Mitsubishi Lancer Evo 7. I was really upset when her husband phoned and said they were selling it, until he said they were getting an Evo 8 with a 330 BHP conversion.

To come to the point (at last), she always says she loves her Evo because it handles just like her Imp did thirty plus years ago.

A couple of years ago she told me that she had a test in an Alan McKechnie Mini at some circuit or other, but could not get the hang of the Mini after driving the Imp. I had no idea.

[Impspeed Gerry]

Originally posted by jph


Try this: esc.dl.ac.uk/Mercia/killeen_book/node16.html

Thanks JPH - that site is maintained by Bob himself and is basically the sum total of his knowledge so far. The dl part of the URL is Dursley (?) Laboratory - our Dr Bob is a nuclear physicist.

We're mainly trying to find out why it didn't appear at the '67 Le Mans, or even turn a wheel in anger anywhere.

Also, regarding Blair Atholl in the previous post, are you an Imp Club member Ian, or is it just a coincidence that your sister lives in Blair ?- that's where the club has held its annual Scottish weekend for the last 7 years, so she could've come along to get her fix! - this year the venue is changing to Loch Lomond.

[Mallory Dan]

That "racing79s" site mentioned above is superb. Sorry to go off the Imp issue, but there's some wonderful pictures/cars on there of Croft/Ingliston in the 70s.

[Ian McKean]

I had no idea that the Imp Club has held its annual Scottish meeting at Blair Atholl for the last seven years. My sister just happens to have lived there for the last twenty years. I don't suppose she knew either but shall ask her.

I never had an Imp but used to enjoy chucking my sister's around. It was one of the later ones with 4.5J wheels and vertical front wheels so you could make it do what you wanted it to do. The original ones with loads of positive camber and narrower wheels weren't very nice in comparison. We took it into a forest not too far from Leominster once and had a lot of fun. It must have been about the easiest car to drive sideways on gravel and flatter you into thinking you could do what Colin Malkin did. There was also a nice forest track on the top of Dinmore Hill between Leominster and Hereford that was quite fun but a bit short.

Another time I entered big sis' Imp into a Herefordshire Motor Club grass driving test meeting. It was more like 5 mini autocross tracks tackled one at a time. No reversing into boxes or handbrake turns or anything like that and the Imp was brilliant. Must have been about 1967 and I don't suppose an RAC official would have accepted that it qualified as a driving test, had one been present. (You didn't need a competition licence for driving test meetings but you did for autocross). I lost it on the last corner of the last lap of one of the circuits. I could tell it wasn't going to do a full 360 so as it pirouetted I slammed it into reverse at the point when I judged the back wheels were most likely to be stationery (although the car was still going quite fast) and reversed over the finish line.

I also navigated for Andy Dawson a few times in his Chamois, including the Tour of Dean in about 1967.

[jph]

We're mainly trying to find out why it didn't appear at the '67 Le Mans, or even turn a wheel in anger anywhere.

I can't really add anything substantial to what it says on that link. I followed the Fraser team's exploits quite closely in the mid/late sixties (family connections with Rootes products) and I suspect the non-appearance of the Fraser GT at Le Mans or anywhere else had as much to do with Fraser's other commitments as anything else. Bear in mind that he was running two quasi-works teams of Imps (British Saloon Car Championship and, somewhat controversially, club races), the Sunbeam Tiger sometimes known as 'The Beast', plus building customer cars. The Fraser GT had a number of advanced - or at least unconventional - design features and I suspect that development resource simply ran out. I remember being disappointed at its continued non-appearance but, ralistically, I don't think it would have been a competitive proposition, even with a 2-litre engine (BRM or otherwise) without a lot of work being put into it.

As for other material, I vaguely recall articles in both Motoring News and Modern Motoring and Travel (the Rootes 'house' magazine), but I doubt that these would contain anything not already on Bob Allen's page.

Sorry I can't add any more just now - I'll be very interested to follow developments on this.

[MattFoster]

Anyone racing the Sunbeam Stiletto? The fastback version of the Imp. Not bad looking little beast, take a look.

http://www.motorbase...cle/by-id/1200/

[bill moffat]

David Enderby's spaceframe Imp was nominally a Stiletto, however as Special Saloons developed there was little to differentiate an Imp from a Stiletto..or a Davrian for that matter.

As far as I know no one ventured onto the circuits with a Husky (the Estate version)..but perhaps with its Ferrari Bread Van rear profile it could have been more aerodynamically effective. Ginger Marshall had some success with a Reliant Kitten..much the same shape !

[MattFoster]

Now that would be interesting to see

[eldougo]

Hi Gerry . I too like the IMP although i have never raced one, Only driven one around the streets it sure was fun it belongs to an old chap nearby he still uses it to go to church and the shops his little red racer he calls it he in his early 80's an still gives it welly with the right foot.

_________________________________________________

There used to be 6 or so IMPS raced out her in OZ from memory their was a Castrol Imp team based in Victoria Graham Ritter was the driver i think . Green and 2 white strips down the middle.
As well as a little black sports sedan with a V8 in the back seat area very quick in a straights not
real good in corners. i cant think of the drivers name MR BELL will know.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by eldougo


Hi Gerry . I too like the IMP although i have never raced one, Only driven one around the streets it sure was fun it belongs to an old chap nearby he still uses it to go to church and the shops his little red racer he calls it he in his early 80's an still gives it welly with the right foot.

_________________________________________________

There used to be 6 or so IMPS raced out her in OZ from memory their was a Castrol Imp team based in Victoria Graham Ritter was the driver i think . Green and 2 white strips down the middle.
As well as a little black sports sedan with a V8 in the back seat area very quick in a straights not
real good in corners. i cant think of the drivers name MR BELL will know.

Harry Lefoe, see my post on that "other" forum :

http://www.ten-tenth...ght=harry lefoe

[bill moffat]

Originally posted by MattFoster
Now that would be interesting to see

I had a quick trawl through Google but found no pictures of Ginger's little cat. I'll dig something out when I get home.

However , other Reliant Kittens were to be found including examples with Rover V8 and Honda Fireblade (!) power. Also on view is a jet-powered example (complete with afterburner) which, as far as I can see, is on standard road tyres/wheels. Nice to know that there are still some real Individuals out there, although I do worry about them....

[David McKinney]

A friend of mine fits 1300cc Kawasaki engines to Reliant Kittens - what a road car!

[eldougo]

( Harry Lefoe, )



THANKS ---275GTB- 4 that him.

[Impspeed Gerry]

There was an article recently about the Ginger Marshall Imp-engined Kitten in the Imp Club magazine, 'Impressions'. I'll have to dig it out when I get chance - an amazing machine.

In the meantime, here's a photo of a load of us at Ty Croes circuit Anglesey, last Sunday. Already disappearing in to the distance is Martin Bramwell, who should be a force to be reckoned with next year in the HSCC/HRSR series. I'm lying fifth in this photo, before spinning at the hairpin later this lap

[Impspeed Gerry]

There was an article recently about the Ginger Marshall Imp-engined Kitten in the Imp Club magazine, 'Impressions'. I'll have to dig it out when I get chance - an amazing machine.

In the meantime, here's a photo of a load of us at Ty Croes circuit Anglesey, last Sunday. Already disappearing in to the distance is Martin Bramwell, who should be a force to be reckoned with next year in the HSCC/HRSR series. I'm lying fifth in this photo, before spinning at the hairpin later this lap

Look at the weather and the view!!

[Impspeed Gerry]

Sorry about posting virtually the same post twice - still getting used to which buttons to press!!

Anyway, another picture. Rallycross style start at Anglesey cicuit. The brown car on the extreme right is a Californian (single headlight version of the Stiletto variant mentioned earlier).

Could be 1973 not 2003!

[David Beard]

I thought I might do a brain dump of my Hillman Imp stuff...

My dad had a couple of them, years ago. The first one was a 1964 model with the pneumatic throttle linkage. If you got the Metalastik drive doughnuts in wind up mode you could bounce on and off the springy throttle and get in a rare old state. It always worked though...most got replaced by a cable. It had monster positive camber on the front wheels (what was Mike Parkes thinking of?) which I helped Dad change to something more presentable. I also helped him change the clutch about 97 times, but fortunately this was done very easily...undo everything, take out the rear cross member, support the engine, and shove the car away from it. And doing the tappet sums for him prepared me for my Elan +2.

Racing Imps..Am I correct in my recollection of someone tipping the engine over the other way? I'm not sure whether it was Paul Emery or Roger Nathan, but I think the idea was to facilitate the mounting of down draught carbs.

Imp powered hydroplanes...I think there used to be a class for them, which resulted in the emergence of Andy Chesman (sp?) as THE Imp tuning ace. I think he died recently. His motors were to be found in cars as well of course, but for a period were popular in racing sidecar outfits too.

A mad professorish friend of mine hotted up his road going Imp. The most outlandish mod was water injection, which he swore by. He simply fed water through a simple nozzle aimed at the carb, which was fed from a vast plastic container mounted on the engine cover. Sometimes it went a little wrong and the Imp's progress was marked by large clouds of steam. Puzzled the men in blue no end.

I saw a very nice Ginetta G15 for sale an E Bay the other day...had the proper rally 1000cc engine, too.

[John Schoen]

Originally posted by David Beard
IIt had monster positive camber on the front wheels (what was Mike Parkes thinking of?) which I helped Dad change to something more presentable.

Shortly before the Imp went into production, Rootes found out that the sidelights were too low to comply with the law. Redoing the body moulds was expensive; the cheap and easy way to fix it was to fit longer springs, that caused the excessive positive camber.

[Impspeed Gerry]

Absolutely right - like all the Imp's problems, the sidelight issue could've been solved, but they were in a hurry for the official opening of the factory, and they had the Duke of Edinburgh booked for the big gig. They preferred to hurry the car than upset HRH, and the die was cast.....

Mark II cars onwards had a lower pivot point for the inboard mounting of the front wishbones, which effectively solved the problem. Early Imps tended to be a bit understeery, prompting some road-testers to liken their handling to a Mini, somewhat bizarrely for a rear-engined car.

A properly set up Imp should have hardly any understeer of course - I think of mine as a climax engined Porsche 356 (waits for cries of derision from the Porsche fraternity......!;) )

[TFBundy]

Originally posted by Impspeed Gerry
I think of mine as a climax engined Porsche 356 (waits for cries of derision from the Porsche fraternity......!;) )

No, you're just confirming that the water cooling system might as well not be there

[bill moffat]

Originally posted by John Schoen

Shortly before the Imp went into production, Rootes found out that the sidelights were too low to comply with the law. Redoing the body moulds was expensive; the cheap and easy way to fix it was to fit longer springs, that caused the excessive positive camber.

..and as a cash-strapped student the "de-fix" was a metal spacer to open out the lower wishbones and a bag of cement under the bonnet (although this further hurt the already feeble power:weight ratio.)

My Imp Sport also had the obligatory brace of Cibie Super Oscars up front. I swear that when I put it on full beam I lost another 5 bhp....

[Impspeed Gerry]

Originally posted by TFBundy


No, you're just confirming that the water cooling system might as well not be there

Yes indeed, the old quibbles about the Imp's cooling system. As I drive past most blokes aged between 40 and 60 I can see them mouth 'head gasket used to blow' - I'm not kidding, I can actually recognise those exact words!!

Lilkewise - 'my dad used to have one of those' or 'I used to have one of those' depending on age group.

These days of course we have all year round anti-freeze, de-ionised water etc. My Imp also has a front rad and runs Wills Rings. If anything it runs a bit too cool on the road - I can only get it hot thrashing it 'round circuits, with 95 bhp.

Of course, a standard Imp cooling system properly maintained is perfectly adequate for a standard engine - the problems came with the concept of 'properly maintained' for the average '60s motorist.

[Tim Murray]

Originally posted by bill moffat


..and as a cash-strapped student the "de-fix" was a metal spacer to open out the lower wishbones

Metal spacer? Luxury! I used to dream of being able to afford a metal spacer.

Seriously I took a hacksaw to my front springs (plus a bit of judicious use of a welding torch and grindstone) - result much the same as the spacer. Then I fitted a front anti-roll bar . . . is the Imp the only car where fitting such a device reduces understeer, contrary to all the laws of science? I assume it's because the bar reduces the swing axle jacking effect and keeps the wheels more vertical to the road.

Then I stopped being a student, took up paid employment, and bought a Ginetta G15 - all the Imp virtues much enhanced, with less of the drawbacks.

[Impspeed Gerry]

I've never driven an Imp with a front anti-roll bar, so I couldn't comment - it's interesting that you found it reduced understeer, which is one of my primary quests in setting up Imps. You're almost certainly right in your reasons as to why.

I actually quite like the Imp front suspension- nice and simple and neat. I've always tried to use a combination of static negative camber and body roll under heavy cornering to try and keep the outer front wheel upright(-ish!). Trouble is that this requires a pretty low car at the front end, with other knock on effects.

Having said that, I too have a G15, but mine hasn't moved under its own power for 16 years. I have however driven a couple of really good examples- knockout! Also the third prettiest sportscar ever made IMHO - an advantage over the Clan and Davrian that no amount of modification will ever redress. Although I'd struggle to go camping with the wife in a G15, which is something I can do with the Imp, as well as racing it!

[Bruce Moxon]

I have a mate with about six Imps, one of which has a Mazda 12A Rotary. Bloody terrifying! He has a whole lot of wood blocks that sit in the front to try to get some weight over the front wheels.

Ray Bell did an article recently on a V8 Imp - guy called Harry Lefoe built and raced it. Harry was a bear of a man - quite amusing seeing him folded, spiked, stapled and mutilated into an Imp!

Dad got blown away down the straight by an Imp when he was racing his Studebaker Lark at Warwick Farm. Against all logic he passed the Imp once they got to some corners!

Always thought they were an attractive little thing.


Bruce Moxon

[Tim Murray]

Originally posted by Impspeed Gerry
Having said that, I too have a G15, but mine hasn't moved under its own power for 16 years.

Oh dear - nor has mine.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by Bruce Moxon
Ray Bell did an article recently on a V8 Imp - guy called Harry Lefoe built and raced it. Harry was a bear of a man - quite amusing seeing him folded, spiked, stapled and mutilated into an Imp!
Bruce Moxon

Would love to read the article Ray....hint, hint!! ;-)

Just reading an advert for a racing Imp form WA:

1040cc, 120bhp, S/C, C/R gearbox, 4 wheel disk brakes etc $9K

[TFBundy]

Originally posted by Impspeed Gerry
My Imp also has a front rad and runs Wills Rings. If anything it runs a bit too cool on the road

When I was road-rallying, a mate had a 998cc Imp with a front rad - but unfortunately no fan - which meant that when the traffic backed up he tended to sit and watch the queue.

But I wouldn't dream of knocking Imps ... Didn't Colin Malkin's 1969 Motoring News winning 1150cc car clean the Abergwesin-Tregaron mountain road section in that years Moonraker? 17 odd miles of a selective set at an average speed of 60mph and no straight longer than 100 yards! When I went there a few years later the road genuinely frightened me at about half that speed!

By the way I did once have a funny problem with a standard Imp - my wet shoe slipped up the worn rubber of the clutch pedal - and my toe went straight up the heater outlet duct immediately above it and got stuck. I couldn't get my foot back out; I couldn't disengage a gear; after a few moments I had to stop and just turn the engine off so I could start all over again!

Is there a later work's mod to cure that one Gerry?

[eldougo]

TF BUNDY

WHIPE YOUR FEET FIRST !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[David Beard]

My loony mate's Imp water injection system....

[doc knutsen]

Interesting to see an Imp thread....the Wendy Wools series of the early Eighties saw some terrific battles between Imp variants, notably the three space-frame Coupes run by Brian Cutting, David Enderby and Pat Mannion in the 1-litre category, also Barry Reece's car in the 850cc class. All were similar space-frame chassis utilizing Imp f & r wishbones, lightened and seam-welded. They were done by contemporary space-frame guru John Maguire of Coventry, who also did tubular Minis, saloon silhouette Imps, Skodas and Esprits. After seeing the cars in action at the WW finals at Thruxton in 1981, I made arrangements to purchase David Enderby's sinister black Shell-sponsored car, affectionately dubbed "Black Beauty" by my good colleague....his first Maguire Imp had rear-ended a Thruxton earth bank in 1980, knocking David out for a short time. This chassis, no. DE 1, was made from "elastic lightweight tubing" according to David, and always seemed very unpredictable in its handling. Its nick-name eventually became "Effing Black Pig" ) David sold the "Chamois Coupe" to me and went on to build the Tiga S2000-based Karmann Ghia VW clone that had Imp power until David eventually went for a 1300BDH engine to contest the bigger class.
My car was run fairly successfully in Scandinavia for two seasons (1982/83) notching up some class wins and good overall placings - mind you, it was facing Porsche 935s and Cologne Capris at the time, in addition to numerous hairy Volvo derivatives. It was finally sold to Scotsman Harry Simpson who proceeded to take towo or three Scottish hill-climb titles in it, until its demise was shown in sequence picture form in Motoring News, shedding bodywork and suspension over a considerable distance.
For the record, I had one engine from Ray Payne of Hartwell's in Bournemouth, and over two seasons it proved 100% reliable and plenty powerful. As for torque, did any racing Imp ever possess any?
Previous to this space-frame job, I had run a steeel-shell Imp that was originally built by Ivor Goodwin in the UK, and run in Gr 2 at least until 1973. It was finished in yellow and blue, and is seen in several shots on the classic Frank Gardner/SCA Camaro video (whose title escapes me at the moment). This imp was sold to ABBA drummer and soon-to-be F1 driver Slim Borgudd, who raced it in Sweden with some success. It was then sold to another Imp racer, my friend Mats Warg from Falun, who lightened the shell with Rawlson doors, rear wings and nose section and kept on going well with it, until he, too, got the space frame itch and had John Maguire do him a Stlletto chassis (no MS 1)
Then I purchased it, and ran it 1980/81. This car was sold on to a Norwegian gent who never assembled it nor ran it, and I have just resurrected its remains, for the purpose of re-building the wreck into proper mid-Sixties Gr V specs, aiming to do Hitoric racing in 2004. Full circle, as it were.
Fredrik "Doc" Knutsen

[David Beard]

Originally posted by doc knutsen
Interesting to see an Imp thread....Fredrik "Doc" Knutsen

And very interesting to see that the famous Doc Knutsen from RASF1 has finally arrived!
Welcome Fredrik... you will love it here.

Just when will Mr Betts, seemingly the second greatest BRM authority after our DCN, arrive too?