Jump to content


Photo

S.E.F.A.C. once again


  • Please log in to reply
139 replies to this topic

#101 Risil

Risil
  • Administrator

  • 61,745 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 19 May 2022 - 10:51

You can sum up the whole project in one word: hubris.

 

Twenty years on the utter humiliation of the 1914 Grand Prix - and of 1908 come to that - was still an open wound. And if Monsieur Bugatti (who was of course an Italian) wasn't going to build them a new car to beat les Allemands then it was the patriotic duty of the French government to provide the money for Monsieur Petit to do so. By imposing a compulsory surcharge on every permis de conduire so that the patriotic homme dans la rue could take pride in a machine which he owned a little bit of and which was racing pour la France! Allons enfants de la patrie ...

 

I'm not sure the man on the Clapham omnibus would have been impressed in similar circumstances.  ;)

 

What was the story behind the French government getting behind SEFAC and not, say, Delahaye? 



Advertisement

#102 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 41,859 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 19 May 2022 - 11:20

What was the story behind the French government getting behind SEFAC and not, say, Delahaye? 

Nationalism. Same applies to the post-WW2 CTA-Arsenal project. And at that point Delahaye had shown no inclination whatsoever to build a GP car and - like most French manufacturers apart from Bugatti - were in any case supporters of using only unblown engines in GP racing. Delahaye were seen as staid and viewed pretty much as a provider of chassis upon which you could ask your coachbuilder to build your own bespoke body. The French switch to a sports car formula for 1936 was fortuitious for Delahaye in that their 135 - an already proven if somewhat unlikely success in competition introduced the previous year - could be given a slightly enlarged engine as the 135M, conveniently just the right size for the new formula. As Wikipedia says re the 135 'Figoni & Falaschi, Letourneur et Marchand, Alphonse Guilloré, Marcel Pourtout, Frères Dubois, Jacques Saoutchik, Marius Franay, Henri Chapron, Faget-Varnay, Antem, and others' all offered their own designs to top off your 135 - and those were just the French ones!

 

At the beginning of 1936, when what would eventually become the 1938-41 Formule Internationale was announced, Lucy Schell, who already owned several 135s in sports and saloon styles, turned up at 'Monsieur Charles' Weiffenbach's office and made him an offer he couldn't refuse to build some Grand Prix cars for her ...



#103 Racer.Demon

Racer.Demon
  • Member

  • 1,722 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 23 February 2023 - 08:48

Reporting back here after a loooong absence, but because of its new Dutch owner the SEFAC has become some sort of a pet project for me. I have already written a long Octane article about the car (in the Dutch edition - the UK editors aren't looking too interested to publish it in their edition), but I continue to do more work on it.

 

One puzzle that I'm still trying solve is what seems to be an obvious question - when did SEFAC start as a company? Does anyone know its exact date of foundation?

 

The Fonds de Course that partly funded it (with a disgracefully small budget) only got started in October 1934, but with the SEFAC being a (albeit withdrawn) entry for the 1934 ACF GP it must have existed well before that. Trouble is, unable to find when the project actually got going.



#104 68targa

68targa
  • Member

  • 1,144 posts
  • Joined: October 19

Posted 23 February 2023 - 11:11

You probably already know all this, however a Company was setup  Societé des Études Francaisses d’Automobile de Course (SEFAC) and according to this site was established in 1930

 

https://graham64.wor...-prix-disaster/



#105 Racer.Demon

Racer.Demon
  • Member

  • 1,722 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 23 February 2023 - 11:18

As early as 1930 already? Wow... Somehow that feels strange. What did they do in those first few years? And if the initial objective was to create a 750kg formula challenger, how could they even have started with that in 1930 when the formula was only announced in October 1932?



#106 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 41,859 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 23 February 2023 - 11:45

First 1934 mention I can find of SEFAC in l'Auto is when the entries for the GP de l'ACF were announced (i/d January 31st, p2). That report says the car had been 'already described in l'Auto' - although it doesn't say when! See also March 9th 1934, p2.

 

As early as 1930 already? Wow... Somehow that feels strange. What did they do in those first few years? And if the initial objective was to create a 750kg formula challenger, how could they even have started with that in 1930 when the formula was only announced in October 1932?

The CSI did actually announce a Formule Internationale for the years 1931-33 on January 14th 1930. It was pretty much a copy of the AAA's rules which had been published in 1929, although it limited engine sizes to 5 litres rather than 6 litres as in the US version.

 

The manufacturers grudgingly agreed to it, but in practice did nothing. The national clubs, which had nodded it through, didn't seem keen either and after the GP de l'ACF in September, which, thanks to the French writing their own rules, had seen the best race for years, not to mention a big field, the whole idea was quietly dropped and the CSI mandated Formule Libre for 1931-33 instead.

 

https://scholars.unh...ry/vol1/iss1/3/

 

So presumably the original foundation of SEFAC was in order to build a car to those abandoned rules.



#107 uechtel

uechtel
  • Member

  • 1,960 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 23 February 2023 - 12:26

But it makes no real sense to me. I understand SEFAC was formed to put something like a national effort against the dominating foreign companies (obviously with Alfa Romeo on mind), but in 1930 Bugatti seemed still quite competitive as France´s national representation?



#108 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 41,859 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 23 February 2023 - 13:07

Have you been in contact with Gérard Gamand, Mattijs? He co-authored an article for Autodiva issue 53, which - from the one page available on their forum - may hold some clues.

 

autodi21.jpg



#109 Michael Ferner

Michael Ferner
  • Member

  • 7,180 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 23 February 2023 - 14:23

First 1934 mention I can find of SEFAC in l'Auto is when the entries for the GP de l'ACF were announced (i/d January 31st, p2). That report says the car had been 'already described in l'Auto' - although it doesn't say when!


December 22, 1933



#110 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 7,506 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 23 February 2023 - 15:39

First 1934 mention I can find of SEFAC in l'Auto is when the entries for the GP de l'ACF were announced (i/d January 31st, p2). That report says the car had been 'already described in l'Auto' - although it doesn't say when! See also March 9th 1934, p2.

 

The CSI did actually announce a Formule Internationale for the years 1931-33 on January 14th 1930. It was pretty much a copy of the AAA's rules which had been published in 1929, although it limited engine sizes to 5 litres rather than 6 litres as in the US version.

 

The manufacturers grudgingly agreed to it, but in practice did nothing. The national clubs, which had nodded it through, didn't seem keen either and after the GP de l'ACF in September, which, thanks to the French writing their own rules, had seen the best race for years, not to mention a big field, the whole idea was quietly dropped and the CSI mandated Formule Libre for 1931-33 instead.

 

https://scholars.unh...ry/vol1/iss1/3/

 

So presumably the original foundation of SEFAC was in order to build a car to those abandoned rules.

Would they design an engine of less than 3-litres for a 5-litre formula?



#111 Racer.Demon

Racer.Demon
  • Member

  • 1,722 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 23 February 2023 - 15:55

But it makes no real sense to me. I understand SEFAC was formed to put something like a national effort against the dominating foreign companies (obviously with Alfa Romeo on mind), but in 1930 Bugatti seemed still quite competitive as France´s national representation?

Yes, that's how the story has always been told - but diving into the details now makes me believe that reality is slightly more erratic and standing in the way of that great story of 'French humiliation needing a response, and the SEFAC supported by the Fonds de Course was it'.

 

Then again, the simple statement that SEFAC was founded in 1930 needs a bit more backing up by facts before I'm going to believe that... (Yes, found those first refererences to a SEFAC entry too in the winter of '33-'34. But a 2.7-litre engine for a 5-litre formula? Ah, Roger made the same remark...)

 

And I agree, Richard, that's a good idea. I was vaguely aware of someone in France doing a similar story like the one I did, using the same pictures taken here in Holland, but didn't know it was Gérard Gamand. Is he still here?


Edited by Racer.Demon, 23 February 2023 - 15:57.


#112 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 41,859 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 23 February 2023 - 16:25

Gérard hasn't logged in here for a long time, but I'm sure you could contact him via Autodiva: https://autodiva.fr/contact/

 

Would they design an engine of less than 3-litres for a 5-litre formula?

Probably not - but as with 1938-40 it was a sliding scale based on capacity v weight, so the more optimistic (or deluded?) might have tried a smaller engine. 3 litres would be unlikely though - when I analysed it the optimum seemed to be between 3.8 and 5 litres, given the minimum weight. When ERA embarked on their GP project they envisaged an interim engine of 2.5 litres before moving to a full 3 litre - and the prototype ran with a stretched 2.2 litre version of the existing engine. I also seem to recall a conversation about a mystery 5-litre engine which turned up in wartime correspondence in Motor Sport and apparently had connections to Raymond Mays ...

 

If SEFAC really was founded in 1930, then the snail's pace development of the car in 1933-35 might perhaps suggest it was still little more than an idea when the CSI cancelled the new formula at the end of 1930.



#113 Racer.Demon

Racer.Demon
  • Member

  • 1,722 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 23 February 2023 - 17:00

That snail's pace seems to contradict the fact that they may have conjured up that 'Sommer Special' in relatively no time for Sommer to have something to race in 1934, although logical as a stop-gap it may seem. Then again, the actual SEFAC contained about 67 innovations, so making all of those work on a shoestring budget will indeed have taken ages. And that's apart from the grand plans they had to sell a range of race cars to customers (the 'Course' version that we know) and a road-going 'Sport' derivative - with no takers for either of them.



#114 Racer.Demon

Racer.Demon
  • Member

  • 1,722 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 24 February 2023 - 10:16

You probably already know all this, however a Company was setup  Societé des Études Francaisses d’Automobile de Course (SEFAC) and according to this site was established in 1930

 

https://graham64.wor...-prix-disaster/

Ah, just found that this was taken word for word from Denis Jenkinson's Directory Of Historic Racing Cars. His words still make no sense to me - formed in 1930 with the object of providing France with a 1934-37 challenger for the 750kg formula. Where could he have found this date?



#115 bradbury west

bradbury west
  • Member

  • 6,096 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 24 February 2023 - 12:18

ISTR there is a Facebook page under  SEFAC GP.  I had a polite message exchange from the person running it. Worth a try.

Roger Lund



#116 Steve L

Steve L
  • Member

  • 547 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 24 February 2023 - 12:29

...I have already written a long Octane article about the car (in the Dutch edition - the UK editors aren't looking too interested to publish it in their edition), but I continue to do more work on it.


Shame, I would love to read this!

#117 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 7,506 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 24 February 2023 - 12:30

I can only think that Denis Jenkinson made a rare mistake; it did happen.  He did get the name right - the F in SEFA stood for Fabrication according to everything I have read.



#118 Racer.Demon

Racer.Demon
  • Member

  • 1,722 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 24 February 2023 - 13:47

ISTR there is a Facebook page under  SEFAC GP.  I had a polite message exchange from the person running it. Worth a try.

Roger Lund

Yes, that's run by the owner and his associate in the project - it's the people who I work with. :D



#119 Racer.Demon

Racer.Demon
  • Member

  • 1,722 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 24 February 2023 - 13:53

Shame, I would love to read this!

Well, it may still happen, Steve, and I'm working on more than just the single article, so if you wait around a little longer... (The restoration project in itself took 14 years in all, so...)

 

And true enough, Roger, it could have been an honest mistake by Jenks. For now, though, it's the only reference to a founding date that I have, even though let's say early 1933 seems a more obvious and logical date.



Advertisement

#120 Geoff E

Geoff E
  • Member

  • 1,530 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 24 February 2023 - 14:41

 

And true enough, Roger, it could have been an honest mistake by Jenks. 

 

In "The Racing Car pocket book" (1962) Jenks says "Petit formed a company in the nineteen thirties..."



#121 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 7,506 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 24 February 2023 - 16:23

I have a note, unattributed but it originated from David McKinney so worthy of consideration, that Emile Petit joined Ariès in 1929.  However, the chief designer at Ariès for many years was Charles Petiet so this could be a complete red herring.

 

It is possible that Petit did establish  SEFAC in 1930 a a deign studio, in the same way as Ferdinand Porsche a year later, but did not begin the design of the Grand Prix car until funds became available a few years later.

 

On the other hand, the reported weight of the car was far too great for the 1934 formula.  Petit was surely too experienced to have miscalculated by so much; he could have intended to race it before 1934 though not necessarily in a 5-litre formula.

 

No answers but plenty of questions...



#122 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 41,859 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 24 February 2023 - 16:48

The November 6th 1933 issue, p2 col 1, of l'Auto describes Emile Petit as 'directeur de la Société Automobile Ariès'.



#123 Racer.Demon

Racer.Demon
  • Member

  • 1,722 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 26 February 2023 - 22:01

Have you been in contact with Gérard Gamand, Mattijs? He co-authored an article for Autodiva issue 53, which - from the one page available on their forum - may hold some clues.

 

Have now seen the article, and sadly, it does not contain any clue to a foundation date for the Societé. The opening paragraphs mostly allude to widely held beliefs that are rebuffed further into the article - that SEFAC was a state-owned initiative and supported by the Fonds de Course right from the start. It's true that both are 'facts' that need correcting, but meanwhile they are nothing new to me now...



#124 EJI

EJI
  • New Member

  • 6 posts
  • Joined: November 13

Posted 27 February 2023 - 07:28

Quote,

'Reporting back here after a loooong absence, but because of its new Dutch owner the SEFAC has become some sort of a pet project for me. I have already written a long Octane article about the car (in the Dutch edition - the UK editors aren't looking too interested to publish it in their edition), but I continue to do more work on it.'

As a long time Octane Subscriber I whole heartedly agree with the previous posts, this article of yours deserves to be in the UK publication.

Eric

Edited by EJI, 27 February 2023 - 07:29.


#125 Porsche718

Porsche718
  • Member

  • 865 posts
  • Joined: August 16

Posted 01 March 2023 - 01:40

This is what I have on the early years of SEFAC and its formation, and the ongoing "funding", if that is even the right term!!

 

I have not gone into depth regards the technical details of the race car, not its performance at various events. The strict parameters I have stuck to is formation and funding.

 

This is best I can come up with, trying filter out fact from myth, but any input that may be different to the below timeline will be accepted graciously.

 

Sorry "Racer", but exact month and date for many things may be impossible to find so far after the fact. 

 

Société d’Etude et de Fabrication d’Automobile de Course - SEFAC

 

1933 - It was foreseen that the coming German Grand Prix cars were going to be as reliable, as they were powerful. Bugatti had made the decision not to sell the new Type 59 Grand Prix racer to private teams leaving many to consider their options for the 1934 season. Rather than turn completely to the Italian brands of Maserati or Alfa Romeo, Raymond Sommer and some other French competitors investigated the possibility of producing a 100% French racer - in less than a year!

 

1933 - A group of four men:  Raymond Sommer (racing driver), André Parante (Industrialist), Simon Brault, and Emile Petit formed Société d’Etude et de Fabrication d’Automobile de Course (SEFAC) to build this "ultimate" French Grand Prix car. It was a completely independent operation, and despite some claims, was not a French Government project.

 

Petit had been director and chief designer at Salmson and became most famous for his 8 cylinder engine with semi-desmodromic valve operation.

 

Andre Parante was from an industrial family, and although a newcomer to motor racing, was chosen to be the second driver. It is most likely that he brought family money to the project. Although there was also some donations from other interested individuals and companies. Each donor receiving a lapel pin with the crest of the SEFAC Societe.

 

Simon Brault is often referred to as "Raymond Brault"  but this is incorrect ("Raymond" may have been a middle name). Simon Brault was the co-founder and president of Lombard. His sister, Eliane, was a well known feminist and leader of the "Radical Party" (anti-fascist) in France in the 1930s.

 

Although not part of the "Societe", Edmond Vareille was in charge of the rather heavy chassis. He also developed the suspension which had coil springs front and rear which was uncommon at the time. Vareille had been a student of Petit in Emile's design studio and had worked with him at Salmson.

 

 The goal was to have the car ready for the 1934 Grand Prix de l'ACF. Initially the car was 2.6 litres. It was a tall order.

 

Emile Petit, who had been concentrating on his private design studio after leaving Aries in 1931 (although remaining a director), is most likely to have already begun the seeds of design for his unusual "side-by-side" 8 cylinder engine during 1931 and 32.

 

It was also "planned" (should read "hoped") the car to be so successful, that further cars would be constructed and sold to other competitors.

 

During this period Raymond Sommer was running a Maserati 8CM in various events. At one stage the car was rechassied and modified, and this has stumped many a historian as to where this chassis came from. It could well be that the replacement chassis was manufactured by the team at SEFAC as compensation to Sommer for the lack of return to him re: the SEFAC project.

 

1934 March - The car was first seen for some initial testing at Montlhery, apparently driven by Emile Petit. The car was a disappointment and although entered, the team did not participate in the French Grand Prix on July 1.

 

1934 October - Fonds de Course was set up to assist all France race car manufacturers, but SEFAC receive only 50,000 fr, less than half of the amount both Bugatti and Delage received. The money was hoped to develop the car further, but even so, the project remained horribly under-funded.

 

1935 - The SEFAC made its appreance at the French Grand Prix, now 2771 cc.

 

1936 late - "Fonds du million" was started as an incentive to all French race teams. These funds were supported by a State tax on driving licenses. There are some reports that teams, including SEFAC, received some moneys from this fund, but the initial requirements to receive this money, was a challenge to which ever team could attain a certain speed at Montlhery by the end of 1937. It appears the bulk of the funds went to Delahaye.  


Edited by Porsche718, 01 March 2023 - 08:36.


#126 uechtel

uechtel
  • Member

  • 1,960 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 01 March 2023 - 06:41

Very interesting and conclusive read!

 

 



 It appears the bulk of the funds went to Delahaye.  

 

 

 

The only passage I wonder about, isn´t the story that the Schell family had their Delahayes painted in Monegasque colours in protest about not being regarded by the subsidies of the French government?



#127 Porsche718

Porsche718
  • Member

  • 865 posts
  • Joined: August 16

Posted 01 March 2023 - 06:59

Yes it is, but I was trying not to get diverted with side stories, but thanks for adding that to the story.

 

Lucy Schell was extremely ... off!

 

They had been the foundation of Delahaye racing at so many events for a number of years with a team of three cars IIRC and yet did not get a franc. 



#128 Bordino

Bordino
  • Member

  • 67 posts
  • Joined: June 22

Posted 01 March 2023 - 08:24

Gentlemen, at the risk of stating the obvious, I will respectfully add this link :

https://autodiva.fr/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=193

to the Autodiva forum, in French.

Amusingly, it points also to this very thread and also to another one, on TNF Archive :

https://forums.autosport.com/topic/63983-a-french-special-to-identify-from-the-1930s/?p=1500562

In each case you will find contributions from the late and excellent Jean-Maurice Gigleux who knew a thing or two about French pre-war racing cars. In the last link he tries his best to debunk the link between Sefac and state money.

However I am not sure to find more accurate information upon the dates you are looking for in these links, just hoping I am not too naive to point you to links you already know.

 

 



#129 Porsche718

Porsche718
  • Member

  • 865 posts
  • Joined: August 16

Posted 01 March 2023 - 08:42

That's for that Bordino.

 

Yes I did scour autodiva as thoroughly as my Aussie french could go.

 

Fair dinkum, maaate .... pitty the voiture ended up merde!

 

Sorry moderators, I couldn't resist :drunk:


Edited by Porsche718, 01 March 2023 - 08:44.


#130 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 41,859 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 01 March 2023 - 09:50

Yes it is, but I was trying not to get diverted with side stories, but thanks for adding that to the story.

 

Lucy Schell was extremely ... off!

 

They had been the foundation of Delahaye racing at so many events for a number of years with a team of three cars IIRC and yet did not get a franc. 

As I understand it Lucy's dispute with the ACF was in connection with not being allowed a late entry in the GP de l'ACF in 1938, having initially committed to the Vanderbilt Trophy on the same weekend. Plans were announced to move the team's headquarters to Monaco - and I've also seen a picture of one of their trucks with 'Écurie Bleue Monaco' on the side - but although they bought an apartment there in November 1938 and the name change to Écurie Lucy O'Reilly Schell was officially announced in December of that year I don't think they ever went through with anything other than the name change: AFAIK their cars only ever ran in blue.

 

Fences seem to have been quietly mended, given that Lucy must have been able to pull some very influential strings to get Dreyfus and Le Bègue released from the army to race at Indy in 1940. Dreyfus says in his autobiography that his orders came directly from General Georges, adjutant to General Gamelin, the French Commander-in-Chief.

 

Anyway, back to the SEFAC ...



#131 Charlieman

Charlieman
  • Member

  • 2,543 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 01 March 2023 - 10:10

Are there any company registration documents, articles of association etc. ?



#132 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 41,859 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 01 March 2023 - 10:22

Are there any company registration documents, articles of association etc. ?

I had a hunt through Gallica the other day and did find references to a company with the initials SEFAC in the right time period, but in that case the F seemed to stand for 'fourniture' - office and/or school supplies/stationery. The source seemed to be a list of approved suppliers, probably for the use of municipal and government authorities.

 

I assume there must have been a French equivalent of the London Gazette though?



#133 Bordino

Bordino
  • Member

  • 67 posts
  • Joined: June 22

Posted 01 March 2023 - 11:01

I assume there must have been a French equivalent of the London Gazette though?

Le Journal Officiel ?



#134 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 41,859 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 01 March 2023 - 12:08

Le Journal Officiel ?

That would presumably be the one, but there doesn't seem to be anything relevant on their website, although there are two other SEFACs, a SEFACO and a SEFACT. That said, my commercial French is very rusty, so I might have been looking in the wrong place!



#135 ensign14

ensign14
  • Member

  • 61,951 posts
  • Joined: December 01

Posted 01 March 2023 - 15:55

SEFACT seems fitting.



#136 Charlieman

Charlieman
  • Member

  • 2,543 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 01 March 2023 - 16:38

Out of interest then, what is in the French phone book and equivalent of Kelly's?  



#137 Racer.Demon

Racer.Demon
  • Member

  • 1,722 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 02 March 2023 - 08:00

Thanks, Porsche718, that's a very a nice timeline, quite similar to what I have reconstructed by now. As for the company's foundation date, I also did a few searches on Gallica and Infogreffe, but found nothing there.



#138 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 7,506 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 02 March 2023 - 11:47

Am I correct in thinking that Raymond Sommer's Maserati 8CM, which was fitted with a new chassis, possibly by SEFAC, was later sold to Tazio Nuvolari?  Nuvolari never raced that car but at the Belgian Grand Prix in 1933, when he was driving a later 8CM, he had the chassis modified to improve its rigidity and won the race.  Could those modifications have been inspired by SEFAC?



#139 Racer.Demon

Racer.Demon
  • Member

  • 1,722 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 02 March 2023 - 12:31

Given the fact that SEFAC adapted the Maserati in the spring of 1934, it's more likely that the inspiration went the other way around! The car was sold to Chambost in October 1934.


Edited by Racer.Demon, 02 March 2023 - 12:32.


Advertisement

#140 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 7,506 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 02 March 2023 - 18:42

Thank you.  I was thinking of the wrong car.  


Edited by Roger Clark, 02 March 2023 - 18:42.