21 replies to this topic

[Kimi on nopein]

Hi ! Since it's been ten years after the tragic weekend at Imola, and the sport has seen a massive advancement since then, I've been wondering: Could it be possible to get rid of the Tamburello chicane?

Hear (read) me out. I saw this documentary on TV that said that the cause of Senna's crash wasn't because of steering wheel failure but because his car's bottom touched the ground and he lost ground effect momentarily. This would be less probable today 'cause they don't want to risk scraping the wooden planks in the bottom anyway. Further, cause of his death was head injury, (hit in the head by his FR tire), not hitting the wall. Couldn't they intoduce a system where in case of a crash it's impossible for the tires to fly where ever. Some kind of cable perhaps?

Can anyone else think of a way to bring back the most spectacular corner in the world?

[Chevy II Nova]

They already use wheel tethers, ever since the Senna wreck I believe. They fail a lot.

[Double Apex]

There are a lot of people who disagree with what that documentary shows as the cause to the accident, but, regardless of that Tamburello always was a dangerous corner. Others have also had very serious accidents in that corner, it was a high speed corner with very limited run off area and there wasn't much that could be done about that.

Current F1 cars are already equipped with wheel tethers but they provide no guarantees.

Regardless of all the technical solutions you could think of, Tamburello isn't going to come back.

[blip]

Some comments in this thread on Tamburello.

[brooksesser]

No, unfortunately there simply isn't enough room for a decent run off area at Tamburello. As most know, the wall cannot be moved back, as a river runs on the other side.

Sadly, I was there on 1 May 1994 - can't believe that it has been almost 10 years!

[Powersteer]

If I am not mistaken, I heard Senna was so unlucky that as his suspension collapse upon impact, the arms broke, one part still stuck on the car and the other on the wheel (with brakes and all) and the titanim arm that is still stuck on the wheel manage to penetrate his visor gashing his top eyebrow very very deep and causing severe swelling. Many people feel that the crash was too light to be fatal, visually that is.

[derstatic]

They changed 130R because it had the same problems as Tamburello. High speed and narrow run off areas. 130R was however a challenging corner in todays cars. Tamburello was flat in 1994 and before that so it would easily be flat in todays cars. So it would probably not be such a hazard. Todays cars are also much more stable both on the road and structurally and even Sennas 1994 car stood up to the impact. He just had the worst bad luck ever getting killed from suspensionparts. And that could really happen in any corner. Bergers 1989 Ferrari stood up to an impact similar to Sennas.
I would say that racing in monaco, monza and albert park is more dangerous than bringing back tamburello. Why? Because of the closeness to obstacles. JV had a nasty accident in 2001 that tracigally killed a marshal. Monza has long straits in the forest, most notably from Lesmo 2 to Ascari. Two cars coming together there and they could easily fly away into the forest, Lemans style. And at 330 km/h thats going to be a huge impact!
So to sum up. I dont think tamburello has to be dangerous to bring back atleast not in comparison to some other places and races out there. But i dont think it will be back! They just wont allow 300+ kmh corners with slim runoff areas.

[CONOSUR]

Tamburello could very easily have been reprofiled to allow for runoff space between the track and the wall by bringing the track in more. Of course that would've required cutting down some trees, and we all know what the Italian government thinks of that, so it's no wonder Max began chicaning everything in sight.

What really amazed me was the fact that even Eau Rouge was chicaned in '94.

[Freebird]

"Hear (read) me out. I saw this documentary on TV that said that the cause of Senna's crash wasn't because of steering wheel failure but because his car's bottom touched the ground and he lost ground effect momentarily. "



I'm just curious, I wonder how many people on this forum believe Senna's car bottomed causing his fatal wreck? The way I see it he had already done a standing start on "cold" tires, and done how many laps with no apparent problems. Then the safety car for a number of laps. Then, 2 full laps after the restart before the wreck. On fuel burn alone he should have been in better shape with regard to car ride height at the time of the wreck then he was at the start. Hard for me to believe someone of his skill having been around that track that many times during the race would have all of the sudden got it wrong.

The only thing I can think of that looked close to senna's wreck was at the Suzuka GP 2 years ago when a car went strait off on the long left hand sweeper that leads up to the Degner curve. Whoever went off took Jean Alesi with him. It broke off the track exactly like Senna's car and was later ruled to have had a suspension failure.

All that said I can't personally think of a time when I saw a steering wheel come out of a car after a wreck. To say nothing of the steering wheel shaft coming out with it. And that includes wrecks so bad you couldn't recognize the car when the dust settled.

The car bottoming and causing the wreck always seemed like a very convenient excuse given all the people and companies involved.................


msw

[derstatic]

The Suzuka incident you are mentioning would be Kimi Raikkonens Sauber. On the replay you can clearly see that his left rear tire becomes onlocated in some way. Either from a wheelnut breaking or a suspension failure.
With Sennas accident the most likely explanation i have heard of says that his steering column broke due to a modification made to it because Senna wanted more room for his legs.
From the replays it seems all wheels are where they are supposed to be, i have also read that Senna applied full braking pressure and surely if a wheel was loose it would break off if you slam the middle pedal at 320 kmh?
In the vid from Michael Schumachers following Benetton you see Sennas car turn into Tamburello and suddenly break of the line and plow straight ahead. Just as your road car does if you turn and let go of the steering wheel. And we can be pretty sure Senna did not take his hands off the wheel in a 320 kmh corner! That leaves the explanation that the wheel somehow broke off causing the accident.

[dosco]

Originally posted by Kimi on nopein
Hi ! Since it's been ten years after the tragic weekend at Imola, and the sport has seen a massive advancement since then, I've been wondering: Could it be possible to get rid of the Tamburello chicane?

Can anyone else think of a way to bring back the most spectacular corner in the world?

Yes, it has been a quick 10 years - seems almost like yesterday to me.....sitting in my quarters, watching the race on ESPN......wow. Amazing how time flies.

Anyway, IMO, the concrete wall at Tamburello has to have some type of energy absorbing barrier.....it was very foolish to have little/no runoff with a solid wall and nothing in between.

Senna's car sailed along unchecked until the impact - which IMO should have been slowed by some type of energy-absorbing barrier.

Bring the corner back, and this time wise up by:

eliminating the runoff entirely and having a "speedway" corner with no gap between the
track and wall

-or-

add a lot of energy-absorbing material between the track and wall.

[Kimi on nopein]

couple of thoughts to add: what level of downforce do teams use in Imola? if low, as I suspect, you could reprofile some corners so that you'd benefit from more downforce. Thus entry speed to Tamburello would be lower and when going flat out there you would not be at the "limit".

I've looked at various maps of the track and in theory you also could reshape the Great One, giving it a wider turning radius. This would also result in a bit wider run off area.

[derstatic]

Teams use a relativly high downforce setting at imola after the tamburello and villeneuve chicanes were built. It was a low downforce track before this. Top speeds are just over 300 kmh

[Spunout]

The theory given in document was that the bottom of his car touched to the ground, causing it to tail out. Senna reacted by turning the steering wheel BUT since wheels where momentarily off the ground it had no effect until they touched the ground again. Then, since he turned RIGHT the car steered to that direction and then it was too late to do anything.

If you watch in-car shot REALLY closely, you can see this happening. The correction Senna makes is really small and it all takes only about 0.1 secs, so you may want to watch it frame-by-frame.

[glorius&victorius]

Originally posted by Spunout
The theory given in document was that the bottom of his car touched to the ground, causing it to tail out. Senna reacted by turning the steering wheel BUT since wheels where momentarily off the ground it had no effect until they touched the ground again. Then, since he turned RIGHT the car steered to that direction and then it was too late to do anything.

If you watch in-car shot REALLY closely, you can see this happening. The correction Senna makes is really small and it all takes only about 0.1 secs, so you may want to watch it frame-by-frame.

Has a tire puncture ever been excluded?

Another question: Schumacher claims that the lap before Senna nearly lost the car. Do we have in-car footage of that?

[Franklin]

Unlike F1, NASCAR has mandated wheel tethers that WORK.

[Franklin]

http://www.racesafet...m/compbarr.html

http://www.racesafet.../dispguard.html

There are several designs for advanced safety barriers.

Nobody is funding them.

[dosco]

Originally posted by Franklin
Unlike F1, NASCAR has mandated wheel tethers that WORK.

Yah, because the wheels in closed-wheel bodywork cars are so easily torn off.......

[Spunout]

"Another question: Schumacher claims that the lap before Senna nearly lost the car. Do we have in-car footage of that"

Dunno, but according to Schumacher while Senna was struggling to keep the car under control, sparks were flying from the bottom of the car (this was pointed out by others as well), indicating the ride heigth was indeed too low.

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

Bringing Tamburello i feel will show no respect to the family and fans of Ayrton Senna. I think they should leave it as it is, bringing it back will only be done so in bad taste and slated.

[alexbiker]

All things considered, I think the technical level is high enough for Tamburello to be safe, but I do think it would too much of an insult to Senna to bring it back - and the slightest cracked fingernail caused by a crash there would cause tremendous bleeting and gnashing of teeth.

All in all, I would say that Imola should be ditched - it's a boring, proecessional race every year and I haven't seen a single thing happen on that track that makes it worth keeping.

Alex

Edit: Gnashing has a "g" does it not?

[TFBundy]

Until I read this thread I thought "Tamburello back" was a terrible curvature of the spine