45 replies to this topic

[Peter Perfect]

http://www.crash.net...cid=1&nid=82772

Just what is the relationship between the two teams?

Ferrari seem to have access to the Sauber drivers and possibly their wind-tunnel, while Sauber get the Ferrari engine and possibly extras bits (gearbox...).

Is there any limit to how close two teams can get and still remain separate in the eyes of the FIA?

[pusko]

Fisi may get a chance and drive for Ferrari!?!
I hope it happens!!! If he would test for Ferrari, how would they let him go to (let's say) Williams in 2005???
This is (probably) Fisico's last chance of a top team drive. If he doesn't get a top drive in 2005, he sadly never will.
Forza Giancarlo!

[KWSN - DSM]

He was already a Ferrari test driver back in the mid 1990ies I belive.

Nothing new there.

[KWSN - DSM]

Here is what Forix tells me:

1996
F1: Ferrari, Test driver
Winner of the Bologna F1 Supersprint with Benetton.
ITC: 6th in the Championship, 5 podium finishes
F1: Minardi, Reserve driver, 8 Grands Prix

Been there, done that, tried out and found wanting if you ask me.

[Peter Perfect]

Are there any test times comparing Fisi and Schui for 1996?

[BRG]

There is something unsavoury and collusive when both of a team's drivers test for a different team.

[Romulus]

If you invert the colours of the Sauber car it kinda looks Marlborugh red..... Coincidence???

Sauber needs to stand on it's own and leave the Ferrari camp

[pusko]

Originally posted by Romulus
If you invert the colours of the Sauber car it kinda looks Marlborugh red..... Coincidence???

Sauber needs to stand on it's own and leave the Ferrari camp

...and become Jordan and Minardi???
Sauber is the only small team that will fight with works teams.
And now with their new Wind-tunnel opening shortly, they have quite bright future.
Surely this wind-tunnel will atract some new sponsors. Philips is the first one!

[KWSN - DSM]

The relationship makes sense to me. But I am a Ferrari and Michael Schumacher fan, so that may be expectable.

I have absolutely zero problems in engineering know-how passsing between Ferrari and Sauber. And between Sauber and Ferrari. I have absolutely zero problems in the respective companies being able to buy technical expertise from each other. I have absolutely zero problems with the Sauber drivers being given the chance to test Ferrari. I have absolutely zero problmes in the Ferrari drivers being given the chance to test Sauber.

What is all of that is untoward or wrong???

[Scudetto]

Originally posted by BRG
There is something unsavoury and collusive when both of a team's drivers test for a different team.

Suprisingly, I agree with you in prinicple.

However, here, I just fail to see where there is harm in doing so. Peter Sauber's no fool. If there is a benefit that accrues to his team in this exchange, then I think one should defer to his judgment in allowing it to go forward.

As for the effects of this relationship vis-a-vis other teams, I don't ever recall hearing anyone speak out against it. Certainly the paddock is full of opinionated persons who would have objected by now if they perceived a problem.

[Peter Perfect]

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM
The relationship makes sense to me. But I am a Ferrari and Michael Schumacher fan, so that may be expectable.

I have absolutely zero problems in engineering know-how passsing between Ferrari and Sauber. And between Sauber and Ferrari. I have absolutely zero problems in the respective companies being able to buy technical expertise from each other. I have absolutely zero problems with the Sauber drivers being given the chance to test Ferrari. I have absolutely zero problmes in the Ferrari drivers being given the chance to test Sauber.

What is all of that is untoward or wrong???

It makes me uncomfortable because instead of looking at a works team and a privateer it becomes one works team running 2 works cars and 2 junior-driver cars. The privateer teams will get swallowed up, and I can't belive that that can be good for F1.

[Peter Perfect]

Originally posted by Scudetto


Suprisingly, I agree with you in prinicple.

However, here, I just fail to see where there is harm in doing so. Peter Sauber's no fool...

I agree. I have enormous respect for Peter Sauber and the way he's handled his team given the fall of Jordan et al. But it makes me nervous when he's seen to get into bed with a works team in such a way. I just feel that he's stepping over the mark with repect to the limits of his team. Going from a partner to a sub-division.

[A3]

Originally posted by Peter Perfect
Are there any test times comparing Fisi and Schui for 1996?

No times, but I found this in google's newsgroup archives:

I remember a Ferrari test at Fiorano where Nicola Larini set a
1m02.80 in the V-10 hybrid car, which was a new Fiorano record.
I also remember the "Ferrari shootout" with 4 Italians, Badoer
Fisichella, Morbidelli and Martini. The best time was set by Badoer
which was about 1m04.3 range.

[BRG]

There are just 10 teams on the grid and they are supposed to be competing with each other. How can it be right that two of them are apparently colluding together? How can we be expected to believe that Sauber are really there to win the WDC and the WCC? How can we assume that they will not help Ferrari (something they have already been accused of). How can it be a fair competiton if Ferrari effectively have four cars on the grid to everyone else's two?

[Jinho]

Originally posted by BRG
There are just 10 teams on the grid and they are supposed to be competing with each other. How can it be right that two of them are apparently colluding together? How can we be expected to believe that Sauber are really there to win the WDC and the WCC? How can we assume that they will not help Ferrari (something they have already been accused of). How can it be a fair competiton if Ferrari effectively have four cars on the grid to everyone else's two?

Enough said. That hits the nail right on the head. Great post.

[Derbris]

Um.. no it doesn't.. in fact it's a pretty ridiculous post

[B]There are just 10 teams on the grid and they are supposed to be competing with each other.

WHoever believes this is in complete denial. Sauber are competing more than Minardi are, even with shared parts

How can it be right that two of them are apparently colluding together?

They aren't though. If both were running th F2003-GA, that might be different. Why should Ferrari ONLY be allowed to sell their engine and not a few extra parts.

How can we be expected to believe that Sauber are really there to win the WDC and the WCC?

And they WOULD be competing if they didn't have Ferrari stuff? Ridiculous statement.

How can we assume that they will not help Ferrari (something they have already been accused of). How can it be a fair competiton if Ferrari effectively have four cars on the grid to everyone else's two?

I don't see what's wrong with teams heling each other out. This has happened time and again in F1.

Ferrari doesn't have 4 cars on the grid, it has 2. It sells engines and perhaps a few extra parts to another team, just like Ford and Honda used to.

[D. Heimgartner]

If ever there was a use for s 'crybaby' smily face, this would be it.

Instead of focusing on the minor collusion between Ferrari and Sauber, you might want to ask why it is that Williams and McLaren haven't taken this same step with other privateer teams. Jordan was begging for this some months ago, and Minardi would equally desire to be taken under the wing of a great and powerful F1 organization that has great engines and heaps of experience. The result would be that the standards of the grid would be elevated, and the minnow teams would not be perched on the lowest branches of the tree of oblivion.

Oh, and Sauber is in an EQUAL and nearly fully-autonomous partnership with Ferrari. We sold Kimi to their main competitor... Peter Sauber continous to woo giant German manufacturers... This, in particular, doesn't seem to me to be the behavior of a fettered, junior team.

[blip]

There is obviously a potential for Ferrari to exploit this relationship to gain an unfair advantage, but as of now I don't see how they've done anything unfair. Let's wait and see what they actually do.

[arthurive]

He was already a Ferrari test driver back in the mid 1990ies I belive.

You guys are being a little disingenuous on this one.
Back in 1995, Fisichella was part of a "shoot out" along with Badoer, Morbidelli and Martini.
This was summer 1995 and it was widely thought that they were being auditioned for
the race seat alongside Schumacher. Well of course, Eddie Irvine got that seat.
Fisichella was never Ferrari's test driver, he simply got a 1 off test early in his career.
Please don't use the excuse of "been there, done that" in a dismissive tone. I don't think
that any test times from that test back then have any bearing on the kind of driver he
has become.

[BRG]

Originally posted by Derbris
WHoever believes this is in complete denial. Sauber are competing more than Minardi are, even with shared parts

That would be why I used the word "supposed".

They aren't though.

And that would be why I used the word "apparently".

I don't see what's wrong with teams helping each other out. This has happened time and again in F1.

Such as when? Which teams have lent both their drivers to another team for testing? Which teams have only employed a driver because the team supplying their engines told them to? What sort of competiton is it when some of the competitors collude? It may be the sort of F1 that you think is good, but it sure ain't my idea of a sporting competition.

[Schuperman]

Quote from the news: Indeed, according to the report, Montezemolo revealed that Schumacher had talked about extending his contract with Ferrari beyond the end of 2006, something the German also hinted at as he answered questions from the media.

Can you imagine what would happen if MS wins the coveted WDC, say from 2004 - 2008. The man could deprive other aspirant drivers e.g. JPM, Webber, Ralf etc. and to some extent reduce the F1 popularity as I do not see anyone could beat this guy over a season.

[Peter Perfect]

Originally posted by Derbris

Ferrari doesn't have 4 cars on the grid, it has 2. It sells engines and perhaps a few extra parts to another team, just like Ford and Honda used to.

Ferrari also supply Sauber with the gearbox i.e. most of the back end of the car, I don't think Ford or Honda ever did that.

http://www.atlasf1.c.../id/12242/.html

[pusko]

Originally posted by Peter Perfect


Ferrari also supply Sauber with the gearbox i.e. most of the back end of the car, I don't think Ford or Honda ever did that.

http://www.atlasf1.c.../id/12242/.html

Oh goody!
That means Sauber will be competitive next season.

[Schuperman]

Originally posted by pusko


Oh goody!
That means Sauber will be competitive next season.

IMO early in 1997 Sauber was better than Ferrari.

[Blind Driver]

I think that people are assuming that there is more collaboration than probably exists. Sauber are using a version of the Ferrari engine. Purchasing the gearbox is something that some have talked about but I'm not sure if there has ever been a press release stating that this is included.

The question really is whether Peter Sauber retains control over his team like any other team principal. The conspiracy theorists would like to say that he is Jean Todt's puppet. Others speculate that since Ferrari supply Sauber with engines, GF will be replacing MS in the near future. I suspect the truth is nowhere near as sinister as many make it out to be.

[blip]

Originally posted by Blind Driver
Purchasing the gearbox is something that some have talked about but I'm not sure if there has ever been a press release stating that this is included.

See the last bit in the article Peter Perfect linked to.

[Blind Driver]

See the last bit in the article Peter Perfect linked to.

Sorry, you guys post faster than I can read.

I'm not an Atlas subscriber. Is the article fact based on actual documented evidence or is it a best guess?

[blip]

Originally posted by Blind Driver
I'm not an Atlas subscriber. Is the article fact based on actual documented evidence or is it a best guess?

Its a quote from Luca di Mon....

"Giancarlo Fisichella and Felipe Massa work for a team very close to us, not only because we provide them with the engine and gearbox, but also on a human relationships basis."

[Blind Driver]

Its a quote from Luca di Mon....

Yeah, Ok, I guess he is a reputable source regarding Ferrari.

[KWSN - DSM]

Re: Giancarlo Fisichella

This is from his own official site. The bold part is by me. He was a Ferrari tester in 1996.

1996:
Formula 1: Team Minardi; take part in 8 G.P. Long Run Tester Ferrari. ITC: official driver Alfa Romeo: Formula1: 8th place on Canada G.P. ITC: 2nd place - Magny Cours, Mugello and Suzuka. 3rd place- Diepholz and Magny Cours.

Re: Sauber / Ferrari relationship

So those of you being against it, are against the supposed underlying hidden agenda?? That has nothing to do with what I wrote that I had zero problem with. Those of you thinking I am in the wrong, could possible state what I write you do not agree with, and why???

[Ghostrider]

Give Fisi the Ferrari and he will fly!!

[belac_legnets]

Ferrari barely even runs RB's car. What makes you think Jean Todt and Ross Brawn have any interest in micro-managing a whole other team? Ferrari doesn't fear Sauber because Sauber is the one team on the grid that Ferrari can be sure is one step behind.
The Engine and Gearbox are always last years model re-badged Sauber/Petronas and Ferrari has no reason to fear yesterdays technology. So technical information flows back and forth, so what. I'm by no means a Ferrari fan but I seem to remember that as the 2002 season wound down Williams and McLaren were sharing technical info in a desperate attempt to catch the f-2002. I personally think that the best racing would come from 20 different but evenly matched cars circling the tracks next season. It'll never happen, but imagine if it did.

[The Vulcan]

If there were any advantage to be gained from the alliance, I think it would be for Sauber. Peter Sauber is a rather sharp cookie and with the current situation for privateers, it is probably a good deal for the Sauber team to exchange expertise

[Jinho]

Originally posted by belac_legnets
Ferrari barely even runs RB's car. What makes you think Jean Todt and Ross Brawn have any interest in micro-managing a whole other team? Ferrari doesn't fear Sauber because Sauber is the one team on the grid that Ferrari can be sure is one step behind.
The Engine and Gearbox are always last years model re-badged Sauber/Petronas and Ferrari has no reason to fear yesterdays technology. So technical information flows back and forth, so what. I'm by no means a Ferrari fan but I seem to remember that as the 2002 season wound down Williams and McLaren were sharing technical info in a desperate attempt to catch the f-2002. I personally think that the best racing would come from 20 different but evenly matched cars circling the tracks next season. It'll never happen, but imagine if it did.

You are right, it doesn't. However, in my opinion to concentrate on the technical help that Ferrari will give is to miss the point. Derbris, for example, doesn't mention the collaboration whereby Fisichella might test a Ferrari. It all implies (whether it is necessarily true is another matter) that Sauber is hosting some kind of 'shootout' for a Ferrari seat in 2005 (unless RB signs an extension).

If this is the case, then there will be an unusually close relationship between Ferrari and not just Sauber as a technical partner (nothing wrong there) but also its drivers. In effect, Sauber becomes somethig of a 'nursery team' of Ferrari's. Now, next time a Mac or Will is held up by a Sauber that it is lapping, and the Ferrari goes through without a problem - can you REALLY say that the relationship is not close enough for it to be a possibility that it was done on purpose?

The thing is that it is a combination of factors that lead to, if nothing else, at least a suspicion that things are not quite right. To give an example, Fisi goes to Sauber, and immediately might test for Ferrari, alongside Massa. Did Sauber actually choose it's own drivers (many would say that both NH and HHF would be better bets than Massa at least)? Do they have either or both under contract? Are they contributing to their wages? Whene there is a close relationship between two teams, and there is also a power differential betwen them, there is always the opportunity for the less powerful to end up working for the good of the more powerful one. Sauber, with this deal, give up any hope of beating Ferrari - and if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. There will always be that suspicion, and that's what's wrong with this.

[The Vulcan]

Sauber as the 'reserve' Ferrari team

[Scudetto]

Originally posted by Jinho
Now, next time a Mac or Will is held up by a Sauber that it is lapping, and the Ferrari goes through without a problem - can you REALLY say that the relationship is not close enough for it to be a possibility that it was done on purpose?

I see the point you're trying to make, but seriously doubt that either Mazza or Fisi would be corrupted or prostituted to that extent -- or even be asked to do so. A Sauber offering token resistence to a passing Ferrari is a great deal different than a Sauber intentionally blocking or hampering a McLaren or Williams. The difference is subtle, but hugely important.

You can bet your ass that McLaren and Williams would lodge the loudest of protests if such a thing were to occur, which would throw the entirety of the Sauber/Ferrari relationship under a microscope -- which neither team would desire.

Again, with respect to the history of this relationship, the silence from the paddock is deafening. With this now added element of pooling test drivers, I believe both would want -- perhaps even need -- to go further out of their way to avoid any semblance of impropriety.

[Jinho]

Originally posted by Scudetto


I see the point you're trying to make, but seriously doubt that either Mazza or Fisi would be corrupted or prostituted to that extent -- or even be asked to do so. A Sauber offering token resistence to a passing Ferrari is a great deal different than a Sauber intentionally blocking or hampering a McLaren or Williams. The difference is subtle, but hugely important.

You can bet your ass that McLaren and Williams would lodge the loudest of protests if such a thing were to occur, which would throw the entirety of the Sauber/Ferrari relationship under a microscope -- which neither team would desire.

Again, with respect to the history of this relationship, the silence from the paddock is deafening. With this now added element of pooling test drivers, I believe both would want -- perhaps even need -- to go further out of their way to avoid any semblance of impropriety.

I don't disagree necessarily. You are right, there is a difference. However, I think that, particularly if Sauber become the Ferrari 'reserve team', both Fisi and Massa will know which side their bread is buttered. Do you not think that 'offering only token resistance' is bad, particularly if it is done by a driver so as not to hamper their chances of a possible future Ferrari drive?

[Scudetto]

Originally posted by Jinho
I don't disagree necessarily. You are right, there is a difference. However, I think that, particularly if Sauber become the Ferrari 'reserve team', both Fisi and Massa will know which side their bread is buttered. Do you not think that 'offering only token resistance' is bad, particularly if it is done by a driver so as not to hamper their chances of a possible future Ferrari drive?

The leap I'm not willing to make - in order to arrive at your conclusion - is that Fisi and Massa would be willing to so blanatly flaunt the rules to pander favor from Ferrari. I would think (hope, more like it) that both drivers are sporting enough not to allow that sort of thinking to color their on-track ethics. Equally so, I'd hope that Ferrari is more interested in their respective driving abilities than the lengths of impropriety each is willing to test in artificially tipping results in Ferrari's favor.

Is the possibility there? Certainly. But I think it's well on the fringe of probability.

[Williams]

Originally posted by Scudetto


The leap I'm not willing to make - in order to arrive at your conclusion - is that Fisi and Massa would be willing to so blanatly flaunt the rules to pander favor from Ferrari. I would think (hope, more like it) that both drivers are sporting enough not to allow that sort of thinking to color their on-track ethics. Equally so, I'd hope that Ferrari is more interested in their respective driving abilities than the lengths of impropriety each is willing to test in artificially tipping results in Ferrari's favor.

Is the possibility there? Certainly. But I think it's well on the fringe of probability.

Don't you guys need to distinguish between a car being lapped and one being passed ? When lapped it's not entirely impossible that a Ferrari would be let by in very short order, while perhaps less of an effort might be made to get quickly out of the way of a lapping McLaren. That's because the choice is merely one would be lapped later rather than sooner, and it's not unusual for a driver to find a good spot to yield a position.

The case of a car getting passed on the same lap, I doubt under any conditions that Fisi or Massa would give up a position deliberately and easily, whether it's Ferrari or a McLaren, nor do I see the team asking them to. In any case, considering the ruling after Jerez 97, it would be probably be illegal to do so.

[Scudetto]

Originally posted by Williams
Don't you guys need to distinguish between a car being lapped and one being passed?

Forgive me for not being clearer, but a lapped Sauber was assumed in my statements.

[black magic]

isn't this a far more practical way of reducing the cost of f1 rather than this farce of reducing the no of engines oer gp?

surely this actually saves mega dollars for both teams and was inevitable with the advantage michelin is enjoying with the majority of teams other than ferrari.

peter sauber the big winner

[Jinho]

Originally posted by Scudetto


Forgive me for not being clearer, but a lapped Sauber was assumed in my statements.

Sorry - same here.

Scudetto, I again agree that Fisi and Massa would be absolute mercenaries to try to garner favour with Ferrari in such a way, and thus this does put things at 'the fringes of possibility', but...

As Williams said, they might actively dive out of the way of a passing Ferrari, whilst making no such extra effort for anyone else. This might not be to garner favour, but rather to avoid annoying them. Do you think that this scenario is improbable?

[Scudetto]

Originally posted by Jinho
As Williams said, they might actively dive out of the way of a passing Ferrari, whilst making no such extra effort for anyone else. This might not be to garner favour, but rather to avoid annoying them. Do you think that this scenario is improbable?

There have been suggestions in the past that a Sauber cleared an easy path for an on-coming Ferrari but, conversely, made the lives on the similarly on-coming McLaren/Williams drivers slightly more testing. If carried out deftly, such moves could be put down to the Sauber driver's decision on the best place to allow the pass to occur -- appearing to err on the side of safety in delaying a non-Ferrari through. To me, so long as there is closer-than-mere-customer relations with Ferrari, Sauber will always be open to this sort of scrutiny.

However, I, personally, have never seen nor heard of this sort of behavior by a Sauber driver since they began their Ferrari customer relationship and see no real reason why it would happen now.

But, again, I can't place enough emphasis on the silence from both McLaren and Williams on this issue. There's too much at stake in modern F1 to allow any ill-gotten competitive advange -- real or perceived -- to pass without protest. That no such protest has has yet to be raised on the Ferrari/Sauber relationship, let alone on any alleged improper conduct by a Sauber pilot, says volumes. I consider the deferrment from Williams and McLaren to mean that they (a) see nothing wrong with how Sauber and Ferrari exchange resources; (b) do not preceive it to be a meaningful threat; or © see no basis in the rules to support such a protest absent the sort of "diving out of the way" that Williams (our host) describes.

Sorry, I ramble. The short answer to your question is "yes."

[Sir Frank]

Peter Sauber to BLICK.CH : «Ferrari trägt die ganze Last der Reifentests für Bridgestone. Es ist selbstverständlich und in unserem eigenen Interesse, dass wir Ferrari dabei unterstützen. Deshalb kann es durchaus sein, dass Fisichella auch für Ferrari testen wird, wenn es unser Programm nicht tangiert.»

Ferrari carries the whole load of the tire tests for Bridgestone. It is natural and in our own interest that we support Ferrari thereby. Therefore it can easily happenthat Fisichella will also test for Ferrari, if it does not disturb our own program.

Sauber has been testing with only a single car for more than a year so one driver would always be free.

The article mentions that Fisicos Ferrari test has taken place on 27. September 1995.

[Schuperman]

A golden opportunity for G Fisichella to prove he is capable to match MS' time.

[Mickey]

La Gazzetta dello Sport says that Fisichella only ever drove a Ferrari F1 car at Fiorano on 27th September 1995, on a shootout with Badoer, Morbidelli and Martini. He did 38 laps on the 412 T2, the fastest of which was a 1:05.470. It's mentioned that he also went off track at the end.

Gazzetta also has a picture from that test: