41 replies to this topic

[tkulla]

Is the ban on driving aids for 2004 in effect (originally planned for midway through the 2003 season)?

I truly hope so. Launch control, traction control, ABS, automatic gearshifts all take away from the skill required to drive the car. It also means the driver is a smaller factor is creating a good lap time, so money is better spent on tech than drivers. That's why quality drivers like JV, HHF, and Irvine are out of F1 and mediocre talents Sato, Klein, and Bruni are in.

[MarkWRX]

Not all of the driver's aids you mentioned are banned. I know that automatic up and down gear changes are. I don't think ABS (assuming you mean braking systems) was ever legal. Traction control is still legal because they still can't figure out a way to police it. Gonna have to check on Launch Control. I think that's banned since I recall during winter testing, many teams practiced starts to get the drivers used to manually egaging the gear and releasing the clutch.

Mark

[panzani]

Even though Launch and Traction Control were allowed in recent years ABS was not... I guess FIA think it is some kind of driver aid...;)

Perhaps just because it can be checked with a very easy inspection, it is not just software related.

As long as I know, up and down gear auto-shiftering will not be allowed in 2004, but who really knows...

Launch Control should have been banned since the middle of the last championship but wasn't, I think MarkWRX is right, they'll try next year.

[Tomecek]

ABS is not allowed. Traction control sill will be allowed. What will be banned is launch control and fully automatic gearboxes, means drivers will be forced to change gears by levers below their steering wheels manually. Until now this was only optional...

[random]

Of course since traction and launch control can be effected with the exact same technology, launch control will certainly remain in the sport in everything but name.

Max also talked of an outright ban on the current generation of electronically controlled auto gearboxes. But I gather that's off. And as pointed about above, ABS hasn't been in the sport since (I believe) 1993.

[maclaren]

Originally posted by random
Of course since traction and launch control can be effected with the exact same technology, launch control will certainly remain in the sport in everything but name.

Really? Without launch control you surely have some kind of manual clutch (in start) or am I mistaken?

Manual gear changes and manual start would be good to be reintroduced, but I'm not really enthusiastic in TC ban.

[MarkWRX]

One could assume that LC would be one of the easiest things to detect. When the lights go out, the cameras pointing at the driver should show him releasing the clutch. I think that one would be pretty easy to police. Since TC is still legal, we won't get the starts wreathed in tire smoke like we used to see, but we should see more variation in the starts then we do now.

LC allows exploits that are sometimes hard to detect so I hope it is banned.

mark

[fingers]

Originally posted by MarkWRX
Not all of the driver's aids you mentioned are banned. I know that automatic up and down gear changes are. I don't think ABS (assuming you mean braking systems) was ever legal. Traction control is still legal because they still can't figure out a way to police it. Gonna have to check on Launch Control. I think that's banned since I recall during winter testing, many teams practiced starts to get the drivers used to manually egaging the gear and releasing the clutch.

Mark

Launch control is out so is automatic gear selection of any form(however the hell that's supposed to be policed) but traction control unfortunetly is still in. All they've got to do is put a huge fine on it like 6 races or something then no-one will ever risk doing it, just in case someone leaks it out or its heard distinctly on a microphone. I think they should bring back full slicks now the cars are more driveable like that.

[MarkWRX]

Fingers, I wish it were that simple. I think it was the French GP in 2000 where Patrick Head said that he heard, and heard it on video, a certain car making very traction controlish noises through a turn he was standing at.

Even with all the press at the time, it was never followed up on, to my knowledge. It would be too easy to hide the code for TC or TC like functions. Might as well leave it legal until there is a fool proof way of catching it.

One thing to look at is the recent FIA ruling for the GT series requiring data recording devices to be installed in all cars. It will be a common box and the FIA will have access to the data. IIRC, it will measure: engine rpm, gear, throttle position, wheel speed for all 4 wheels (I think) plus a few more channels.

So the FIA could require the same to be mounted on F1 cars and either broadcast the data a telemetry or store it onboard for later retrieval. And they could require that two throttle positions be measured - the throttle unit on the engine and the actual position of the throttle pedal. So if you get wheel spin and the engine throttle changes position but the throttle pedal doesn't....well, then you will have to explain things.

Mark

[JackBauer]

Originally posted by MarkWRX

Even with all the press at the time, it was never followed up on, to my knowledge. It would be too easy to hide the code for TC or TC like functions. Might as well leave it legal until there is a fool proof way of catching it.

Mark

isn't that why they legalised it in the 1st place? because it couldn't be policed?

[random]

Originally posted by MarkWRX
One could assume that LC would be one of the easiest things to detect. When the lights go out, the cameras pointing at the driver should show him releasing the clutch. I think that one would be pretty easy to police. Since TC is still legal, we won't get the starts wreathed in tire smoke like we used to see, but we should see more variation in the starts then we do now.

LC allows exploits that are sometimes hard to detect so I hope it is banned.

mark

In actuality, Launch Control seems to have been one of the *hardest* things to detect. Launch and traction control are tied at the hip because Launch Control uses traction control technology for much of its effectiveness. So technically, a car with traction control always has some measure of launch control.

As for your point about the officials being able to visually identify when a driver engages the clutch. Consider that when the lights go out, it will show a driver pushing "a" button. However that button could disengage the clutch, or it could just activate the launch control. And under their current level of scrutiny, there is no way for the officials to tell exactly what the push of that button actually does.

To find a culprit, the officials would have to vet every line of source code in the vehicles various electronic control units, something the FIA is no longer in the business of doing.

Will we get a variation in starts? Sure we will, just as we did this past year. And just as it was this year, computer programmers will be responsible for most of the good and bad starts, not the drivers.

[Clatter]

Originally posted by MarkWRX
One could assume that LC would be one of the easiest things to detect. When the lights go out, the cameras pointing at the driver should show him releasing the clutch.

Your assuming of course that they will all use a hand clutch.

In any case I dont believe you could effectivly police that via camera.

[Racer Joe]

Without LC, the driver will have to match revs and do the actual clutch disengagement manually. Once the car starts rolling TC takes over.

The FIA obviously thinks it can police LC but not TC. I am still to hear their rationale on that one.

[RJL]

Now, I'm as much in favour of getting rid of the gizmos as the next guy, but if we wind up with a cloud hanging over the season due to allegations of cheating I will definitely be disappointed. Has the FIA described how they will police the LC ban?

[random]

Originally posted by RJL
Now, I'm as much in favour of getting rid of the gizmos as the next guy, but if we wind up with a cloud hanging over the season due to allegations of cheating I will definitely be disappointed. Has the FIA described how they will police the LC ban?

Same as it ever was.

3 years ago, before TC and LC were re-legalized, that the entire sharp end of the field were blatantly using the technology was the worst kept secret in the paddock. Which seems to have led to the re-legalization.

No, it's not provable, as of course none of the teams will admit it. But it was telling to watch the standing starts of the time. The first 5 or 6 rows of the grid continually launched with nary a bit of tire smoke. While the rows of minnows left big clouds of the stuff in their wake.

Since they were all running the exact same tires, I leave to your imagination to determine what was allowing the better funded teams to launch their cars without spinning the tires.

[Witt]

Surely all this could be banned and policed if the teams used a control ECU? And to further ensure no-one is cheating, the ECU's should be selected randomly, and installed in the cars before each session. Perhaps this solution is too logical for the powers that be, or am i over-simplifying things?

[Wuzak]

Originally posted by Witt
Surely all this could be banned and policed if the teams used a control ECU? And to further ensure no-one is cheating, the ECU's should be selected randomly, and installed in the cars before each session. Perhaps this solution is too logical for the powers that be, or am i over-simplifying things?

Eeeewwwwwwwww


We are talking about F1, and not F3000, CART, or one of the myriad of single spec series around the world??

How long do you think the big manufacturers would last if they had to put somebody else's electronics on their engine? Particularly if they were forced to use the same settings.....

[Spunout]

According to Max Mosley ECU is out of question because they want to keep the technological level of F1 high.

There were some effective ways to police TC but as some of you may recall top teams offered to give smaller teams some help (more customer engines etc) in return of keeping TC. Naturally top teams have better TC and so it is good for them to keep it. Also do not underestimate the influence of car companies like Mercedes, BMW, Renault, Toyota and so on.

They are willing to support every gizmo that is used both in F1 and in road cars they sell - "look, our TC works in F1, surely it works in your Corolla too!"

IMO it is obvious even though F1 must keep high technological level, that does not mean they need to have "everything road cars have and more". Powerful hi-tech engine and aerodynamics, cool. TC, LC, ABS - not cool.

Removing automatic gear changes has very little effect, using paddle shifter is not exactly demanding. Removing LC is good, it may make starts at least a bit more interesting than they are now.

F1 may still be 90% as demanding as it was before TC and more demanding than any other racing series, but I stand behind my opinion that using such device in _motor racing_ is not a good thing.

But I bet guys at Toyota are very happy when fans keep asking "are the cars doing all the work nowadays?"

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by panzani
Even though Launch and Traction Control were allowed in recent years ABS was not... I guess FIA think it is some kind of driver aid...;)

Slightly OT, but I thought ABS was outlawed to bring down cornering speeds.

[panzani]

Originally posted by Foxbat

Slightly OT, but I thought ABS was outlawed to bring down cornering speeds.

I think you're right.
But TC increases cornering speeds at its high level and is allowed.
How can one understand FIA's resolutions/laws?

[Fortymark]

They could ban power steering, that´s an drivers aid.
And they could move the gearlevel to the side where it´s located on lower formulas and
champ cars. So the driver have to drive with one hand when he shifts and it´s better for the viewers too imo. Just think of Monaco...

[random]

The FIA could remove automatic get-away portion of launch control if they liked, but I don't think they are going to. They'd have to mandate removal of the current electro-hydraulic gear boxes in favor of totally manual systems.

As for stock ECU's, they don't do much to remove traction control. Especially so in a sport like F1 where the teams have their own electronics designers.

Right now there are stand-alone, sensorless (require no wheel sensors) traction control modules smaller than a sugar cube. They can be placed nearly anywhere in the car or even on the driver. Nascar for instance doesn't even have ECU's, yet they've apparently had huge problems with this technology finding it's way into the sport.

I don't like that TC is here to stay, but I've yet to see a series create an effective mechanism for detecting its use.

[Fortymark]

Why not make TC half illegal? I mean officially it´s banned but you only punish the obvious.
Like when you could direct hear the TC step in and cut the engine. This way we could at least get rid of that awfull noise.

[RJL]

Originally posted by random

Same as it ever was.

3 years ago, before TC and LC were re-legalized, that the entire sharp end of the field were blatantly using the technology was the worst kept secret in the paddock. Which seems to have led to the re-legalization.

No, it's not provable, as of course none of the teams will admit it. But it was telling to watch the standing starts of the time. The first 5 or 6 rows of the grid continually launched with nary a bit of tire smoke. While the rows of minnows left big clouds of the stuff in their wake.

Since they were all running the exact same tires, I leave to your imagination to determine what was allowing the better funded teams to launch their cars without spinning the tires.

Yes, Randon, I would agree with this. This why, despite my reservations about driver aids, I felt that legalization was the correct choice at the time. I don't understand what Max intends to accomplish here. Surely if you can't properly police it, then the best choice is to make it legal (hey, that sounds like an argument for marijuanna, if ever I heard one).

IMO driver aids are here to stay in one way or another. But really, provided the playing field is level, I can live with that. TC didn't make last season any worse for me, I still enjoyed it a hell of a lot. Like it or not, race cars will have two pedals and assorted electronics from now on. It's just progress; and, as you rightly pointed out in another post, there is no turning back. All I want is genuine equality, and I think max's current turnaround may screw that up somewhat.

[maclaren]

Originally posted by Fortymark
They could ban power steering, that´s an drivers aid.
And they could move the gearlevel to the side where it´s located on lower formulas and
champ cars. So the driver have to drive with one hand when he shifts and it´s better for the viewers too imo. Just think of Monaco...

It's not fast enough, to me it's more spectacular as driver has his hands in wheel, legs in pedals and gives 100% concentration for that to go flat out.

[Clatter]

Originally posted by Foxbat


Slightly OT, but I thought ABS was outlawed to bring down cornering speeds.

ABS doesnt affect cornering speed. It helps to shorten the braking distance hence making it even harder to overtake.

[Wuzak]

Originally posted by Clatter


ABS doesnt affect cornering speed. It helps to shorten the braking distance hence making it even harder to overtake.

It doesn't even do that.

ABS enables the driver to stand on the brakes without fear of locking up his wheels, and hence damaging his tyres. It doesn't increase the braking power, or increase the grip of the tyre.

Nor does TC allow for faster cornering - it is more for improving teh acceleration out of the corners.

[daSilvium]

Originally posted by Wuzak


It doesn't even do that.

ABS enables the driver to stand on the brakes without fear of locking up his wheels, and hence damaging his tyres. It doesn't increase the braking power, or increase the grip of the tyre.

Nor does TC allow for faster cornering - it is more for improving teh acceleration out of the corners.

absolutely right.
TC cannot give any MORE traction than the car/tyre already has, it's just a very precise way of controlling wheelslip. In fact, maximum traction in the dry is produced when the driven wheels are slipping (rotating) about 10% more than the front wheels.
And yes it doesn't give any more cornering speed, it just makes it easier to drive the car on the limit. mash the throttle at the apex and the software controls the power feeding into the rear wheels more precisely than almost any driver.

so it's not about higher levels of grip, it's about easier to control / drive.

a great shame that TC isn't banned but i can see the difficulty with it and all the arguments / wrangling and complaints that "xyz team is using a clever form of illegal TC" blah blah.

not good for F1 image, so Max & Co. prefer to have it legal.

ABS has never been used in F1.

[dick]

Originally posted by maclaren

It's not fast enough, to me it's more spectacular as driver has his hands in wheel, legs in pedals and gives 100% concentration for that to go flat out.

I thought it was more spectacular watching Senna blast around Monaco one handed while shifting a gated box than it is watching Schumacher just steer.

[dolomite]

Originally posted by daSilvium

ABS has never been used in F1.

Yes it has. Williams used ABS in 1993.

[random]

Originally posted by dolomite
Yes it has. Williams used ABS in 1993.

As did other teams.

[maclaren]

Originally posted by dick
I thought it was more spectacular watching Senna blast around Monaco one handed while shifting a gated box than it is watching Schumacher just steer.

I would say driving with one hand is "just steerin' "

[daSilvium]

Originally posted by dolomite


Yes it has. Williams used ABS in 1993.

I defer to your superior memory on that one.

[Wuzak]

Originally posted by dolomite


Yes it has. Williams used ABS in 1993.

Damon Hill was the guinea pig.....

I believe he was the only one to race it.

[Witt]

Originally posted by Wuzak


Eeeewwwwwwwww


We are talking about F1, and not F3000, CART, or one of the myriad of single spec series around the world??

How long do you think the big manufacturers would last if they had to put somebody else's electronics on their engine? Particularly if they were forced to use the same settings.....

Why are control ECUs so disgusting? The manufacturers still get to make the engine, the teams still get to make the car. IIRC, ECUs of any sort didn't even exist in F1 engines until 1984. It couldn't be all bad if F1 were to revert to a playing field akin to the early 80s, before electronics took over and began the ruination of motorsport, not to mention a time when drivers actually drove their vehicles.

Imgine the scenario worked as such. The FOCA take bids from electronics companies for the tender to produce the ECUs. The huge amount of money for the contract could be split amongst the teams. The manufacturers are given the spec ECU a year before the season it is scheduled to race, therefore they have a year to develop their engines with that ECU before they race. They can also use the spec ECU to test and do whatever the hell they want to do with it and their cars. But the catch is, come race day, the teams are handed their ECUs from the FIA at random, and simply plug it into their car to race/practice/qualify with it. To make things easier for the simple minded technical delegates who ensure cars are legal throughout post race inspections, no other form of on board computer can be present in the car. The car either works with the control ECU, or it doesn't work at all. Now i'm no technical genius, but cheating would be pretty hard to do if no other onboard computer or program of anysort can be present on the vehicle. But then again, maybe i'm not one of the FIA technical boffins for a good reason.

Or even this. The manufacturers can all use their own electronics, but they have to write their codes all using the same software approved by the FIA. Or does that defeat the whole purpose of having their own electronics?

Or, if all that is really ill-informed pipe dreaming, then Fortymark's suggestion will suffice.

Why not make TC half illegal? I mean officially it´s banned but you only punish the obvious. Like when you could direct hear the TC step in and cut the engine. This way we could at least get rid of that awfull noise.

The sweet sound, and the illusion that all is well... In this case, ignorance must surely be bliss.

[Amir_S]

Originally posted by Fortymark
Why not make TC half illegal? I mean officially it´s banned but you only punish the obvious.
Like when you could direct hear the TC step in and cut the engine. This way we could at least get rid of that awfull noise.

Why? Then we would never stop hearing your endless bitching and whining about Ferrari cheating, bla, bla ,bla, which we we probably wont anyway..... Thanks, but no thanks.

[dick]

Witt, I couldn't agree more. There already is all kinds of electronics on the engines that come from other sources. Unless I'm mistaken, there is only a couple brake manufacturers. I'm sure there is other items that are shared by most teams. Make the drivers DRIVE. I could care less about how many G's they have to put up with. I don't see that much difference in watching them corner now compared to the '80s. I sure see alot of difference in the quality of racing however. F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle of motorsport, but what good is that if it's BORING. Oh, and while we're at it, ban refueling.

[random]

Originally posted by Witt
Why are control ECUs so disgusting?

Because there is no sense in doing it and won't achieve the end you desire.

The manufacturers have very few real-world take always from the F1 development programs. Much of the technology they design for F1 has more to do with aerospace than road cars. F1 has become a real dead end technology race, these huge manufacturer investments having almost no benefit to their road-car development programs.

The single largest exception is probably the electronic systems. ECU's are a technology that can be handed down to the road car development programs, providing some measure of F1 R&D back into road car development. So it's very understandable that the manufacturers are loathe to give this up to a control ECU.

More than one manufacturer has said they would rather leave the sport than endure control ECU's, and I believe them.

This is much ado about nothing. Because as has been pointed out above, in a sport with as much money as F1, control-ECU's won't do much of anything to remove electronic driver aids from the sport. Nascar has gone one further than control ECU's, they have no ECU at all! Yet they still have constant allegation of illicit traction control, some of which are almost certainly accurate.

The design of illicit stand-alone, sensorless traction control systems moves along with the rest of computer technology. The systems get smaller and better ever year. 2 years ago they were as small as a sugar cube, today they could likely be built into a wire.

Traction Control is a genie that is so far of the lamp there's probably no putting it back in.

[Wuzak]

Originally posted by Witt

But the catch is, come race day, the teams are handed their ECUs from the FIA at random, and simply plug it into their car to race/practice/qualify with it.

Would that also mean that the engine builders would have to build engines with the same bank angles, firing orders, etc, etc?

[Witt]

Originally posted by Wuzak


Would that also mean that the engine builders would have to build engines with the same bank angles, firing orders, etc, etc?

As i have said before, i'm no technical genius about this stuff. But, if that's what it takes, then yeah, i'll take it. What did engine builders and the teams do before ECUs were even part of an engine? Engine types were still pretty various.

If what random says is true about hiding TC systems in a wire, then i guess my idea is bung anyway. But, theoretically, couldn't these hidden systems still be useless if the control ECU isn't programmed to recognise any foriegn codes/software???

But alas, if my idea hasn't already been put in the 'dreaming' pile, then i'm guessing now that the manufacturers practically run the sport, there will never be standardised anything. Except profits, of course. But that rant is for another topic.

[random]

Originally posted by Witt
If what random says is true about hiding TC systems in a wire, then i guess my idea is bung anyway. But, theoretically, couldn't these hidden systems still be useless if the control ECU isn't programmed to recognise any foriegn codes/software???

I'll try to describe how these systems work in a nutshell:

When wheel-spin or traction loss occurs it causes the engine to rev a bit, and in a very specific way. These illicit traction control modules monitor the spark for just such electrical signatures.

When the module senses these signatures, it ******* the spark until the signature goes away. This is done very quickly and very often, much faster than a person could possibly react. The amount of wheel spin these systems correct can also be turned up and down. Full blown traction control like we currently have in F1 makes obvious sounds when a car is in a very low grip environment. But the designers have found that these systems can be turned down, and below a certain threshold there is no longer any audible indicator of it's use.

As for the ECU not recognizing the codes or software of these systems, these systems control analogesignals, not software or data. These illicit systems are plugged into the analog part of the motor, right into the spark. They have access to the motor before the control ECU can ever get a hold of the signal. (the ECU also deals with this analog data).

These units can be hidden anywhere in the wires leading from the ECU to the motor, right into the engine block or even spark plugs themselves. It's been said that the officials could have one of these modules sitting right in front of them and they wouldn't know what they had.

It has often been suggested that a control data logger could be designed to tell on any team using such the illicit systems. But I give the F1 teams electronic designers a bit more credit than that. A properly designed illicit TC system could probably effect traction control while passing normal but false information back to the ECU or other data recorders. Making it look as though nothing was amiss.

[Witt]

thanks for the explanation, random.

I'd always thought TC was a software/computer controlled thing. From your explanation, even banning electronics wouldn't fix the problem? How depressing, that humans can be so smart and ruin so many good things at the same time.