41 replies to this topic

[Franklin]

Why are all the turns on F1 circuits flat? Why not improve the view for spectators by making some turns banked instead of flat? Why hasn't banked turns been discussed as one option for turning F1 events into races instead of parades? Is this because European drivers have to come to America to learn how to handle banked turns?

[D. Heimgartner]

Well, nobody is perfect...

[baddog]

Its mostly a safety issue. and of course because F1 is, in its heart of hearts, ROAD RACING.. and how many banked turns do you see on roads? the circuits are in essence either converted roads or simulated roads.. and most people feel theyve gone too far from that, whereas you are apparently proposing they go further.

oh by the way.. your thread title? childish in the extreme, and stunningly innacurate.

Shaun

[StickShift]

Uh,

[list=a]
[*] Most tracks F1 cars race at have been around for ages, and adding banked corners would ruin some history.
[*] Many corners do have camber on F1 corners, it's just not the Nascar superspeedway grade.
[*] 'Indy Turn 1' at the USGP, no?
[*] Banked corners aren't/wouldn't-be that challenging for F1 cars.
[*] How do banked corners improve the spectacle?
[*] A banked corner is not difficult. Any driver with 15 minutes in a race car on an oval could probably master the track. Try taking your average Nascar or IRL driver and have them lap Suzuka or Spa-Francorchamps.
[/list=a]

[BorderReiver]

Well, there's the final turn at Indy for the US Grand Prix, not to mention the circuit used for the German Grand Prix at the Avus-Rennen . . . .

As for European drivers going to the states to learn how to handle banking. . .

Sure. you carry on beleiving that, afterall we had to go over there and show the Indy lot how to put the engine in the back . . .

The opportunities for banked and oval races in Europe are increasing all the time, with most notably the advents of the Lautzitsring and Rockingham, added to that the thousands of small ovals, some banked, some not, that litter Europe and are being used for Sprint and Stock events week in and week out.

While it's true that European racing heritage is mainly based on road circuit racing it is also worth remembering that the UK's first motorsport facility was a large banked oval shaped circuit.

But basically, perhaps it's just European driver's like to turn right once in a while. . .

Who knows huh?;)

[SlateGray]

It is an interesting question. Monza had a high bank at one time if I am not mistaken.
Indy has a slightly banked turn currently, so banking was not and is not out of the question.

[BorderReiver]

Originally posted by SlateGray
It is an interesting question. Monza had a high bank at one time if I am not mistaken.
Indy has a slightly banked turn currently, so banking was not and is not out of the question.

Indeed not. And there was the famous flop that was Monzanapolis as well. . .

[BorderReiver]

Originally posted by StickShift
A banked corner is not difficult. Any driver with 15 minutes in a race car on an oval could probably master the track.

Hey StickShift.

Much as I hate to add ammunition to Franklin's little crusade I have to take issue with that. A banked turn in itself isn't difficult, true. However during the course of any oval event the groove evolves drastically, weather this be in IRL, midgets or even banger racing. Racecraft plays a much greater part on Oval racing than it does in circuit racing IMHO. Driving an oval over one lap may be a doddle (even then sometimes it isn't), but over the course of a race you are constantly having to adjust your lines, manage traffic, manage the car and go as fast as you can, that isn't particularly easy. Bear in mind, a minor mistake on a road circuit will cost you a tenth, if your good or lucky you can make that tenth up elsewhere on the lap. Losing a tenth on an oval is a totally different proposition, you'll have to grind it back out over lap after lap using all of the aforementioned racecraft.

It is, to put it mildly, a real sod.

[StickShift]

Ok then, any half-talented driver. But to suggest F1 drivers need to come to America to learn how to drive, let alone go quick, on a banked corner or circuit is simply absurd.

[BorderReiver]

Originally posted by StickShift
Ok then, any half-talented driver. But to suggest F1 drivers need to come to America to learn how to drive, let alone go quick, on a banked corner or circuit is simply absurd.

Seconded.

Happy Christmas! (Bit late now, still 11 days left though).

Actually I seem to remember some boring Brummie F1 driver going over to Indycars in a sulk and clearing up in his Rookie year. . . .

Funny that. . .

[D-man]

Didn't Silverstone propose a new complex of turns that would have included a banked corner? A year or two ago if I remember correctly.
But then again I could be absolutely and totally wrong about this.....maybe I dreamed it? Anyone remember this? Or am I having really vivid dreams?

[Flying Panda]

I wonder what kind of Danish rednecks designed and built the Roskilde Ring...

[Wuzak]

Originally posted by D-man
Didn't Silverstone propose a new complex of turns that would have included a banked corner? A year or two ago if I remember correctly.
But then again I could be absolutely and totally wrong about this.....maybe I dreamed it? Anyone remember this? Or am I having really vivid dreams?

I believe that you are correct.

I don't know what happened to the redevelopment, whether or not it is going ahead.

[Wuzak]

Originally posted by SlateGray
It is an interesting question. Monza had a high bank at one time if I am not mistaken.
Indy has a slightly banked turn currently, so banking was not and is not out of the question.

Monza has an oval track, with one of the straights being shared by the main straight of the F1 track - it goes through where the pits are now.

The first of the banked corners (if travelling in the same direction as the road circuit does) arcs away from the straight before the Retifilio, and crosses over the road course about 2/3rds of the way from the second Lesmo to the Ascari Chicane. The track then is outside the road course until it rejoins at the exit of the Parabolica.

Have a look here

[Tommy]

I dont much like bankings
circuits shaped by natural terrain are the way to go
even if theres not many left like Spa and Suzuka
(who said F1 circuits are flat?)

[Wuzak]

Originally posted by Franklin
Why are all the turns on F1 circuits flat? Why not improve the view for spectators by making some turns banked instead of flat? Why hasn't banked turns been discussed as one option for turning F1 events into races instead of parades? Is this because European drivers have to come to America to learn how to handle banked turns?

Actually quite a number of corners on F1 circuits are far from flat. They aren't banked, as such, but they often vary in elevation throughout their length.

How many Eau Rouges exist on banked oval courses?

[Williams]

Banked turns add nothing to a race, other than artifically adding to the top speed of a track, for example boosting the average speeds of heavy stock cars to the sub-200 mph region at some tracks.

For circuit racing, banked turns force teams to run overly stiff suspensions to be keep cars from bottoming out from centrigal force, compromising the performance of the cars everywhere else on the circuit. I see no advantage in the use of banked turns in circuit racing.

[Franklin]

Originally posted by StickShift
Uh,

[list=a]
[*] Most tracks F1 cars race at have been around for ages, and adding banked corners would ruin some history.
[*] Many corners do have camber on F1 corners, it's just not the Nascar superspeedway grade.
[*] 'Indy Turn 1' at the USGP, no?
[*] Banked corners aren't/wouldn't-be that challenging for F1 cars.
[*] How do banked corners improve the spectacle?
[*] A banked corner is not difficult. Any driver with 15 minutes in a race car on an oval could probably master the track. Try taking your average Nascar or IRL driver and have them lap Suzuka or Spa-Francorchamps.
[/list=a]

A lot of F1 tracks aren't all that historic.

Monza once had a banked turn.

The Avus had a huge banked turn.

Banked turns have multiple racing lines instead of just one.

[StickShift]

Originally posted by Franklin


A lot of F1 tracks aren't all that historic.

Monza once had a banked turn.

The Avus had a huge banked turn.

Banked turns have multiple racing lines instead of just one.

Most banked corners don't have multiple lines. Especially in Open Wheel cars.

(Unless you say IRL, but those cars have a ridiculous amount of downforce on the wings)

[StickShift]

And how would banked curves improve F1 racing Franklin? Formula 1 cars are so aero sensitive that they couldn't even get close to the car infront because of the aero wake they create. If anything it would make the gap between two cars wider than it would be on a straight or through a drivers corner.

You know Franklin, for someone who claims to be a Technical Writer, you tend to have a distinct lack of technical knowledge.

[Spunout]

Indeed. At least some time ago IRL cars had way too much downforce compared to power/top speed. That meant it was easy to go flat all the time, races were close and entertaining but gave better racers little chance to separate themselves from not-so-good ones. It is almost like giving everyone an almost similar car and putting them to race on straight line.

Then again, since Franklin detests any form of racing that is not 1) driving on straight line 2) American, he would propably like that.

Can you imagine F1 race where they go around wet Spa in one pack trough entire race? Yeah it may be boring for some when Schumacher dominates, but it is because F1 cars & tracks give him a chance to prove his superiority at wet conditions, and believe or not, that is how most F1 fans want it to be.

[Franklin]

Originally posted by StickShift


Most banked corners don't have multiple lines. Especially in Open Wheel cars.

(Unless you say IRL, but those cars have a ridiculous amount of downforce on the wings)

Uh, yeah, then all of those NASCAR races I've watched where cars go two wide and three wide through a turn must have been an hallucination.

[StickShift]

Originally posted by Franklin


Uh, yeah, then all of those NASCAR races I've watched where cars go two wide and three wide through a turn must have been an hallucination.

Yeah.... You see. about that...


WE ARE TALKING ABOUT FORMULA ONE CARS !

[ehagar]

Originally posted by Franklin
Why are all the turns on F1 circuits flat? Why not improve the view for spectators by making some turns banked instead of flat? Why hasn't banked turns been discussed as one option for turning F1 events into races instead of parades? Is this because European drivers have to come to America to learn how to handle banked turns?

Your a cocky one, aren't you?

There are banked turns, except it is called camber

[Franklin]

Originally posted by StickShift
Yeah.... You see. about that...


WE ARE TALKING ABOUT FORMULA ONE CARS !

At the 1937 Berlin Grand Prix, Bernd Rosemeyer qualified first with a lap average of 171 mph in his Auto Union streamliner (the competing Mercedes streamliner was suffering front end lift problems). Cars were hitting 240 mph on the straights.

The Avus was about a 12 mile course consisting of two straights linked by a slightly banked turn at the south end and a hugely banked turn at the north end. The straights were public roads.

[Spunout]

"Is this because European drivers have to come to America to learn how to handle banked turns?"

You mean like Mansell and Zanardi?

[StickShift]

Originally posted by Franklin


At the 1937 Berlin Grand Prix, Bernd Rosemeyer qualified first with a lap average of 171 mph in his Auto Union streamliner (the competing Mercedes streamliner was suffering front end lift problems). Cars were hitting 240 mph on the straights.

The Avus was about a 12 mile course consisting of two straights linked by a slightly banked turn at the south end and a hugely banked turn at the north end. The straights were public roads.

Wow, and that has what to do with F1 these days? I know what AVUS is and I know of the old cars. And in the end, it doesn't prove anything Franklin! How does this describe how passing would be made easier? It doesn't!

Regardless, "F1 cars" back then have nothing to do with F1 cars today.

[Rene]

Wasn't Monza's 60 Degree bank the steepest backed corner of any race track in the world? So the question should be -

Did US rednecks learn about banked cornering from wine drinking cheese eating F1 banking experts? Then tone down the banked corners so they could drink beer and eat hotdogs more effectively.

:

[prettyface]

Originally posted by Franklin


At the 1937 Berlin Grand Prix, Bernd Rosemeyer qualified first with a lap average of 171 mph in his Auto Union streamliner (the competing Mercedes streamliner was suffering front end lift problems). Cars were hitting 240 mph on the straights.

The Avus was about a 12 mile course consisting of two straights linked by a slightly banked turn at the south end and a hugely banked turn at the north end. The straights were public roads.

And in the words of Stirling Moss: "The worst racetrack in the world, and the banking is built wrong"

[maclaren]

Originally posted by Williams
Banked turns add nothing to a race, other than artifically adding to the top speed of a track, for example boosting the average speeds of heavy stock cars to the sub-200 mph region at some tracks.

I second that.

And while I recognize finding lines through corners of banked oval may be challenging it leads to inferior completely asymmetric setups which doesn't belong to racecars. Try turn those cars to right, it's impossible.

[Cociani]

Bigotry towards European racing fans is equaly as obnoxious as bigotry towards American racing fans.

[KenC]

Originally posted by Franklin
Why are all the turns on F1 circuits flat? Why not improve the view for spectators by making some turns banked instead of flat? Why hasn't banked turns been discussed as one option for turning F1 events into races instead of parades? Is this because European drivers have to come to America to learn how to handle banked turns?

You know, sometimes I think having a two month trial period before a newbie is allowed to start threads would be a good idea, so that they'd at least get a taste of what the boards are about, before causing a ruckus.

Seeing as you know about Monza's banking, the Avus ring, etc., then why are you asking this question anyway? F1 circuits are NOT flat, they have lots of elevation change. And, why are you asking "why hasn't banked turns been discussed"? Have you done a search on this message board? It has been discussed, as Silverstone proposed a bank turn as part of renovations in the last year and a half.

Further, you presume banked turns lead to "races", which is just nonsense and clear that you have been brainwashed by NASCAR or other banked series that contend that DRIVING side-by-side, like we do on the freeway is somehow racing. It's NOT, it's driving.

As for multiple lines, mentioned elsewhere, you only get that when the banking allows the car's downforce to exceed the lateral g-force. You don't get multiple lines on the same banked track. What may work for CUP, may not work for the IRL, etc. It's all about the specific formula. F1 uses the slightly banked Indy track, and given the amount of downforce they run, the cars could run side-by-side, aka multiple lines, if necessary. Unfortunately for you, they don't, as they don't exit together from the previous turn complex.

[Cociani]

Great post KenC

[HBoss]

I wouldn't mind banked corners, as long as they were safe enough for their speeds. The greater the challenge, the better, as long as safety is always a primary issue.

[Wuzak]

Originally posted by Franklin


At the 1937 Berlin Grand Prix, Bernd Rosemeyer qualified first with a lap average of 171 mph in his Auto Union streamliner (the competing Mercedes streamliner was suffering front end lift problems). Cars were hitting 240 mph on the straights.

The Avus was about a 12 mile course consisting of two straights linked by a slightly banked turn at the south end and a hugely banked turn at the north end. The straights were public roads.

The banked turns, as far as I understand it, were relatively tight at the AVUS. One of them, I think, was almost a hairpin.

The fact that almost the whole 12 mile course was straight road contributed greatly to the high top speeds and the high average speed. I don't think that the banked corners greatly contributed to the racing, but maybe helped raise the average speeds slightly.


Let's not forget that the Nürburgring Nordschlieffe has tha banked Karussell corner - and another one too, IIRC. Neither are fast corners, though.

[Wuzak]

Originally posted by Franklin


Uh, yeah, then all of those NASCAR races I've watched where cars go two wide and three wide through a turn must have been an hallucination.

Some of the tracks used in NASCAR have corner banking with compound angles - the track has different angles at the bottom middle and top, which is effectively 2 or 3 lanes. I believe that Daytona is just such a track.

[HP]

I think the real question would be, why are there no negative banking tracks. There you can differentiate drivers, watching them negotiate a corner while trying not to fly off. Besides it adds for spectatcors located on the wider end of the corner, as the angle in which they can view cars is better.

[KenC]

Originally posted by HP
I think the real question would be, why are there no negative banking tracks. There you can differentiate drivers, watching them negotiate a corner while trying not to fly off. Besides it adds for spectatcors located on the wider end of the corner, as the angle in which they can view cars is better.

I presume you meant by "negative banking" that you are referring to off-camber turns. I believe that a couple turns at Mid-Ohio are off-camber, and very technical. The big weakness of this track is that it is too narrow for top-level racing.

[sschinning]

Originally posted by Franklin
Is this because European drivers have to come to America to learn how to handle banked turns?

Nope, it's to show americans they better come to Europe to learn some racing. Same as why the South-americans go there...

And there still is ROUGHLY only one racing line through banked corners, just like "normal" corners.
Indy and nascars wont take completely diffrent lines during qualifying runs, do they now?
Obviously you never watch F1 cause there are many overtaking actions that contain two cars next to eachother in a corner, hell even three or four cars at the first corner after the start.

[UkF1]

Quite simply I'd love to see it!

I don't mean a whole race on an oval (IRL for that) but just to see more bamked turns, like Indy, would be nice IMO

[paulogman]

Originally posted by Franklin
Why are all the turns on F1 circuits flat? Why not improve the view for spectators by making some turns banked instead of flat? Why hasn't banked turns been discussed as one option for turning F1 events into races instead of parades? Is this because European drivers have to come to America to learn how to handle banked turns?

how old is the oval from monza?

what about the banked turns on the original nurburgring?


franklin needs to do a little more research before shooting his mouth off?

[Falcadore]

Originally posted by Franklin
Why are all the turns on F1 circuits flat? Why not improve the view for spectators by making some turns banked instead of flat? Why hasn't banked turns been discussed as one option for turning F1 events into races instead of parades? Is this because European drivers have to come to America to learn how to handle banked turns?

Hey I like it. It's provacative, curious yet ill-informed, and extremely nationalistic.

OK thats my cheap shot. Cliched as it was.

Franklin, before I can really answer you question I'd need to know where your opinion is coming from on the basis of your background in the sport. IRL is not a valid comparison to Formula One because as a category, the racing in IRL, while extremely close, is contrived by nature of the technical regualtions.

What is your definition of flat? Would you call Spa-Francorchamps flat? Banked corners? A mainstay of Formula One over the years have been corners like Eau Rouge, like Bosch Kurve, like Peraldata, like Karrussell, like Brabham Straight, like Paddock Hill Bend, like 130R, like da Sablieres, like.......

Why do you think there have been no banked turns? Do you define banked turns as above say 20 degress? 15? 30? 5?

Races instead of parades? Based on what the CART model? The standard of drivers has plummeted in recent years. Based on IRL? Well isn't oval racing its own form of parade?

"European" drivers seem to have an excellent record in US based open wheel racing is it is, and pardon me for wondering, but isn't the present IRL champion a New Zealander, a nation with no oval tradition at all. If the "European" drivers have to go to American to learn how to race on high banked ovals, they seem to be doing a very good job at dominating the sport there.

Once upon a time US based oval racers were the equal of any driver in the world, and it produced names like Foyt, Andretti, Gurney. Sadly that is no longer the case. Their open wheel scene is dominated by Canadians and Mexicans and Brazilians and Brits. American drivers have been channelled in to the local Touring Car series, NASCAR, globally considered the poorer cousin of open wheel, but in the US, locally bred drivers have the field to themselves as the style of racing is so idiosyncratic, that it has become pointless for drivers from othere arenas to even attempt breaking in.

Rather than Formula One become more like NASCAR, isn't the impetus rather for NASCAR to leave its own confined world and join the mainstream?






As a post script there is one more thing I have to say about Superspeedways. I'm admitedly more sensative to this topic this after having two drivers I've worked, died this year.

Superspeedways kill people. They kill them at a far greater rate than the rest of the sport, and it's always in the back of my head when I watch CART or IRL or NASCAR.