59 replies to this topic

[eukie]

Armand Philippe was an early visitor in post-1945 german motorracing. In my Grenzlandring-records he appears as early as 1948 when he was second in the >2000 sportscars-race, driving a Veritas -> uechtel has posted a photo in another thread, showing him at Saarbrücken in 1949:



At the Grenzlandring he made an entry in 1949 (dna?) and 1950 (r?dns?); for 1951 a “Robert Armand” (Veritas, dna) appears in my lists – I suppose it`s him again. Some newspapers also called him “Philippe Armand” ...
In the entry form of 1948 he is said to be a Parisien, but an adress in Germany (Oggersheim – today part of Ludwigshafen, of Helmut-Kohl-fame ...; Formula2-driver Oswald Karch also originated from there) is also given. In 1950 his hometown is named “Leistadt”.
I`m a little bit confused. Anyone out there who has more info on A.P.?

[Jimmy Piget]

This driver also appears in F2 races in France 1951-1952, and even one time shared a Ferrari 166 that later year with none other than Eugène Martin.

He was probably some industrialist or businessman racing under a pseudonym. No clue for his "real" name, sorry.

[Ray Bell]

Or could he have been a German who found a way to race outside Germany?

[uechtel]

Don´t think so. If so it would have been much easier to him to use a German identity for the races in Germany.

Did he actually start OUTSIDE Germany in those years?

[eukie]

Thanks so far!
If he were german why should he have raced as a frenchman at the Grenzlandring as early as 1948? He was the sole starter in a “invitation class” for foreigners ... But he seens not to have been "puinished", unlike Loyer in 1949. BTW: Leistadt (part of Bad Dürkheim) and Oggersheim (part of Ludwigshafen) are not far away from each other and of course the southwestern part of Germany was in the french occupation zone. And his Veritas might direct towards the french Veritas-connection – but If even uechtel is helpless ...

Here the race participations of A.P. as far as I collected them from various sources (Sheldon, F2-register etc.) :

1948 Sept. 19
Grenzlandring (D)
SC <2000: #13 2. Armand Philippe, Veritas (built 1948)

Start of the race:


1949 Sept. 11
Grenzlandring (D)
SC <2000 in entry list (dna?) : #18 Armand Philippe, Veritas

1949 Sept. 18
Saar-Uferstreckenrennen Saarbrücken (Saarland)
SC <2000: 1. 1. Armand Philippe, Veritas, 46:35 = 111,24 km/h

1950 Sept. 17
Grenzlandring (D)
SC <2000: in entry list (ret?) : #10 Armand Philippe, Veritas

1951 July 22
Grand Prix des Sables d'Olonne (F)
F2 : in entry list #22 Armand Philippe (Armand Philippe), BMW Special

1951 Sept 9
Grenzlandring (D)
SC <2000 #21 Robert Armand (=? Armand Philippe), Veritas

1952 May 25
GP de Paris, Monthléry (F)
F2: #32 DQ Eugene Martin / Armand Philippe (E. Martin), Jicey –Veritas, Driver change on the circuit

1952 June 28
Circuit du Lac, Aix-les-Bains
F2 : #18 nc (9.) Armand Philippe (Ecurie Rosier), Ferrari 166 –5 laps

1952 July 27
Caen (F)
F2 : #4 4. Armand Philippe (Ecurie Rosier) Ferrari 166 -7laps

1952 Sept. 14
Grand Prix de Cadours (F)
F2 : DNF #26 Armand Philippe (Ecurie Rosier) Ferrari 166F2, Mechanical (3rd in repechage)

1952 Sept. 28
AVUS (D)
F2: # ? 4. Armand Philippe (Ecurie Rosier) Ferrari 166, -1 lap

[eukie]

Just found another info: Grenzlandring 1948 is reported to have been Philippe`s first race ever. Quite unusual for the common french racing driver ...

[Marcor]

According Pierre Abeillon in Automobiles historiques, the Ferrari 166 ex-Rosier was acquired by Armand Philippe who raced with it 1952. Armand Philippe was a pseudonym, under which was hidden the boss of the Bernard trucks.

According this website http://www.bergerloc...tu/retro_07.php the founder of the company, Edouard Bernard died in 1951 and the company was taken over by his sons.

So who was "Armand Philippe" ? A Bernard's son ?

[uechtel]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by eukie
[B]Thanks so far!
If he were german why should he have raced as a frenchman at the Grenzlandring as early as 1948? He was the sole starter in a “invitation class” for foreigners ... But he seens not to have been "puinished", unlike Loyer in 1949. [/quote]

No problem: If you won´t compete outside Germany you don´t bother whether you are banned or not. Perhaps also the effect of the pseudonym, so no French official knew whom to ban?

[quote] BTW: Leistadt (part of Bad Dürkheim) and Oggersheim (part of Ludwigshafen) are not far away from each other and of course the southwestern part of Germany was in the french occupation zone. And his Veritas might direct towards the french Veritas-connection – but If even uechtel is helpless ... [/quote]

There was a strong French connection, but as long as I don´t know his true identity I can´t see whether he was part of that or not.

To be based in the Ludwigshafen area would lead me rather to the Helfrich / Karch "family", with both of them running Veritas models, that were optically very much identical to Armand´s car. But Karch appeared some time later than Helfrich, so perhaps he took over the Frenchman´s car?

[quote]Here the race participations of A.P. as far as I collected them from various sources (Sheldon, F2-register etc.) :

1948 Sept. 19
Grenzlandring (D)
SC <2000: #13 2. Armand Philippe, Veritas (built 1948)

Start of the race:


Interesting picture! Shows Kling and Ulmen at the front, followed by Bossong, Philippe and Schäufele. Also it proves, that there has been a sixth Veritas in that race, so did Roese actually take the start?

[quote]
1949 Sept. 11
Grenzlandring (D)
SC <2000 in entry list (dna?) : #18 Armand Philippe, Veritas[/quote]

In my records (based of press bulletins by the organizers) I have car No. 18 in fifth place at the end after having started from 5th position of the grid. But until now car and driver had been unknown to me.

1950 May 14.
Hockenheimring (D)
SC <2000 #20 Armand Philippe, Veritas, 11th on the grid, retired lap 3

[quote]
1950 Sept. 17
Grenzlandring (D)
SC <2000: in entry list (ret?) : #10 Armand Philippe, Veritas[/quote]

I have 6th place in the end for him there.

[quote]
1951 July 22
Grand Prix des Sables d'Olonne (F)
F2 : in entry list #22 Armand Philippe (Armand Philippe), BMW Special[/quote]
From Sheldon (I believe) I have him entered with the Balsa Speciale. But the Veritas would make more sense to me.

[quote]
1951 Sept 9
Grenzlandring (D)
SC <2000 #21 Robert Armand (=? Armand Philippe), Veritas[/quote]
no info on that, sorry.

[uechtel]

Originally posted by Marcor
According Pierre Abeillon in Automobiles historiques, the Ferrari 166 ex-Rosier was acquired by Armand Philippe who raced with it 1952. Armand Philippe was a pseudonym, under which was hidden the boss of the Bernard trucks.

According this website http://www.bergerloc...tu/retro_07.php the founder of the company, Edouard Bernard died in 1951 and the company was taken over by his sons.

So who was "Armand Philippe" ? A Bernard's son ?

This confuses me even more!

The owner of the Bernard truck company living in Germany and to start a racing driver career there???

[GIGLEUX]

Edouard Bernard died on August 26th 1951. His successor was his friend Fernand Genève, an industrialist whose society constructed dump trucks and truck's "cockpits", hence the relationship with Bernard. At the end of 1952 his successor was Lucien Hersot also managing director of Ets Hersot which produced brakes and clutches linings. The two sons of Edouard Bernard, Raymond and Charles, who were adopted children, were nominated at the head of the society in 1957.
Armand Philippe was also knowed under the name "Commandant Philippe" which was, I think, a grade from the Resistance french army during WW2. Maybe at the end of the forties was he in the french army based in Germany.

[VDP]

When began the racing agan in Germany ?
I read somewhere, I think in C Huet Gordini 's book that the first race in Germany started in the French Zone, ciould also explain why Armand Philippe was there, but then why was R Loyer banned ?

Robert

[uechtel]

Armand Philippe was also knowed under the name "Commandant Philippe" which was, I think, a grade from the Resistance french army during WW2. Maybe at the end of the forties was he in the french army based in Germany.

Even more strange! A resistance officer in active service in the enemy country immediately after the war and acting against the interests of his home country? Remember, France was executing the ban on Germany more stronger than most other countries (Strasbourg 1947 and Loyer as late as 1949, when it was already clear, that Germany would be admitted again in the near future)!

[uechtel]

Originally posted by VDP
When began the racing agan in Germany ?
I read somewhere, I think in C Huet Gordini 's book that the first race in Germany started in the French Zone, ciould also explain why Armand Philippe was there, but then why was R Loyer banned ?

Robert

The first race was already in 1946 (Ruhestein hillclimb), indeed in the French Zone. But no foreigners at the start. 1947 saw already a full season of racing. Armand´s first start was only at the end of 1948, so a full two years later when the scene was already established.

In 1947 Veritas tried to take part at the race in Strasbourg. They tried to disguise the German origin of the car as much as possible and Chaboud, who was "employed" as works driver, really succeeded in getting an entry, but then they were unveiled and were excluded from the race.

In June 1949 the FIA had already inaugurated to re-admit German motorsport under the condition, that AvD and ADAC should install a common motorsport body. The result was the ONS, which was founded on 20th September 1949, which was officially accepted by the FIA in October.

So Loyer´s start at the Nürburgring on 7th August was before the official recognition of Germany, but it was already clear, that it was only a matter of time. In fact the ban on Loyer (two months) lasted longer than the ban on Germany! Harsh attitude of the officials!

But back to Armand Philippe: Is it possible, that he raced under German license? This would explain why on one hand he had no problems with French authorities and on the other hand why he did not race elsewhere before 1950?

[VDP]

who entered then a "Frazer Nash" in french meeting ? should it be Eugene Martin and his famous Martin SPL ?

Robert

[VDP]

For Armand Philippe he could also change his pseudonym.
The best example is PL Dreyfuswho change 3 or 4 times in his all career, ok he had a bank

Robert

[GIGLEUX]

Uechtel, many young men in the "Resistance" in 1944 rejoined the French armies, from South of France or from Normandie until the end of the war. Quite a lot of them remained after the 8 th of may, I don't see where they were acting against the interest of France: Resistance was in France fighting against the german army and French army is as its name indicated the army of France! Where is the matter? Some of the Resistance's officers also had their grade recognized and converted in equivalent army's grades.

[eukie]

I`ve been away while all of you brought together so much valuable info!
@ uechtel: "... did Roese actually take the start?": Yes according to my records he did, but retired.

I wonder if Oggersheim ("-Niederfloisheim") and Leistadt might give us a further clue, if we can find any "french connection" in this two towns. Maybe an army camp or some kind of french administration centre? Tomorrow I`ll try and ask my father, born in 1930, who lived in this area at this time. BTW: In 1950 Karch and Philippe both ran a Veritas at the Grenzlandring, so at least it was not exactly the same car.

Has anyone already contacted the Berger-Location-Company asking for details about their bosses and their hobbies after WW2?

[uechtel]

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
Uechtel, many young men in the "Resistance" in 1944 rejoined the French armies, from South of France or from Normandie until the end of the war. Quite a lot of them remained after the 8 th of may, I don't see where they were acting against the interest of France: Resistance was in France fighting against the german army and French army is as its name indicated the army of France! Where is the matter? Some of the Resistance's officers also had their grade recognized and converted in equivalent army's grades.

Jean-Maurice, what I wanted to express is not, that he was acting against France´s interests by being a member of their army.

What I tried to say was, that I don´t think, that the French army would have really approved one of their officers taking part illegally in a race in the (former) enemy´s country driving one of the (former) enemy´s car, when his fellow compatriots had still problems with that a whole year later.

"... did Roese actually take the start?": Yes according to my records he did, but retired.

excellent. That brings it together quite fine again, as so far I was missing the eighth starter. Now I have them all complete.

VDP: Immediately after the war there was the interesting phenomenon, that quite more Frazer Nash 328 were running around than had been produced...

A cheap trick to appease race organizers objecting German cars. Seems that the organizers were quite pragmatic on this, as it would have been easy to them to recognize every "false" car by its left-hand steering ;)

Examples for this are Martin´s car (who drove the BMW 328 in original configuration during 1946 and converted it into the special only for 1947), Jef Legros, Hans Waeffler and even the great Raymond Sommer started at Marseille in 1946 in a car with the steering wheel on the left:

[Marcor]

Jean-Maurice, what do you think about the link "Armand Philippe" and Bernard (or his company)?

I think I've sump up too fast when i said the company was taken over by the sons: in the website it was clearly told it was in 1957 (as you said) .... 6 years after the death of the founder of the firm.

Interesting thread !!!

[VDP]

And the french "système D"


Robert

[GIGLEUX]

Marc: Personnaly and if what Abeillon wrote about Armand Philippe being the manager of Bernard company is true, I think that the real name of this latter was Lucien Hersot but I cannot prove it.
Markus: OK, understand better now but first, if Armand Philippe was racing under this pseudonym when an officer, difficult to charge him officialy, secondly don't forget we are in France a little less rigorous that or neighbours of the other side of the Rhein!

[eukie]

When I started this thread my main intention was to collect some information about possibly the first foreign driver that participated in Germany after WW2. But maybe I asked for the wrong man ...
In an older magazine of the german MG club one Albert Farré from France is mentioned who already took part in the second post-war meeting in Germany, the Karlsruher Dreieckrennen 1946, september 29th (Schumann p12: "Farr" !). A descendent of a family of liquor-producers, he is said to have been officer in the french ocupation army located in the southwest of Germany.

In Karlsruhe (pic above?), Hockenheim 1947 and Schotten 1947 he drove (and retired) a MG, the pre-war Assenheimer MG TA entered and prepared by the Renngemeinschaft Offenburg, led by MG-specialist Heinz Mölders.
Any comments on that?

[uechtel]

Amazing news!

But if you look at the picture of the start of the sports cars 1.5 litre at Hockenheim 1947, that you received from me, you can see a different looking car with much bigger radiator inlet (car #33 in the center). And I think I am quite sure about the identification of that one.

Of course there might have been changes at the car in the meantime. Also Schumann is not absolutely precise whether the 1946 car was a 1100 cc, so there might have even been two cars.

Also it is hard to tell whether the picture is indeed taken at Karlsruhe in 1947. The scenery could fit to a number of places.

In 1948 I have Farr again, entering (but probably dna) a BMW 2.0 litre at Schotten and another dna for "Farré" at the 12 hours at Montlhery, again with the BMW. Perhaps this helps you a little bit further.

[eukie]

uechtel, you´re right, definetly another front/radiator-grille in your picture.
Unfortunately there is no concise info about the development of the cars in the article I have (BTW Farré is reported to have set fastest lap in class in Karlsruhe, and to have had a small accident at Schotten), especially no information whether there have been any modifications on this car before Hockenheim. On the other hand the Mölders-stable seems to have been quite busy in finding, preparing and reworking the prewar-MGs: Mölders himself, Farré with the ex-Assenheimer-car and Assenheimer with the ex-Wiswedel car entered races quite regularly in 1947 and 1948, and Mölders had already reshaped his one with a new aluminium-body for the Ruhestein hillclimb in 1946 - maybe he reworked the other cars later on?
After Farré had left (no reason given) his car was taken over by Prince Joachim zu Fürstenberg - no caption whre this picture was taken, but I think here indeed we have the Hockenheim car:



As to Farré: so Monthléry indicates that he went on racing in France - maybe our french fellows here at TNF do know something more?

[uechtel]

yes, I think it´s the same car, but it´s impossible for me, too, to give place and date of that picture.

(BTW Farré is reported to have set fastest lap in class in Karlsruhe

are you able to tell which class? 1100 cc or 1500 cc?

[uechtel]

Originally posted by eukie
After Farré had left (no reason given) his car was taken over by Prince Joachim zu Fürstenberg - no caption whre this picture was taken, but I think here indeed we have the Hockenheim car:

On second thought (if it´s really Fürstenberg) there is possibility for Hamburg 1947. Entries of which I know are:

31.8.47 Hamburg No.?? (3rd place 1500 cc)
5.9.48 Eggberg No.21 (8th place 1500 cc)
29.5.49 Berlin No. 21 (no info)
12.6.49 Schotten No. 21 (dna)

Are you sure, that Fürstenberg took over the car AFTER Farre had left (as you write). Or could it be that they were "wildly" swapping the cars in that "team"?

Perhaps you can tell me sources and captions for those two pictures, so this might help for better identification?

Also I found this picture in Molter´s book about German racing cars from 1950:



He does not explicitly give any informations, but the picture appears within a series of the race at Karslruhe in 1946. So just compare with the picture you posted:



To me this looks very much the same! Only difference is the more oval radiator inlet. So either a sister car or indeed the very same car with some minor modifications?

Finally, you write, that Assenheimer used the ex-Wiswedel MG. But at least at Hockenheim 1947 this seems to be not the fact, as the entry list says "HRG". And looking at the following picture I think this is true:



#27 should be Assenheimer / HRG, alongside him # 33 is Farr, Mölders has #32 (at the back), his car looking very similar to that of Farr in front of him. I believe this car was later raced by Stürzebecher (from the same area) at the Nürburgring in 1950. So this seems to have been a small series of such cars. And #29 is another MG, that of Heinz-Gerd Jäger. Do you know whether he and Stürzebecher were connected to Mölders´ team?

These MGs are still very confusing to me. Perhaps I should pay them some more attention in future...

[eukie]

uechtel, being at work without the aforementioned article at hand, just a few remarks: thanks for your usually eagle-eyed observations! The Mölders-feature for sure contains some not exactly precise conclusions, especially regarding text-picture-relations (some of them taken from Molter’s book, as I can see from yours; the one you show is said to be Mölders in Baiersbronn/Ruhestein 1946). Nyncke (the author) gives no hint that cars were „wildly“ swept between Mölders, Farré and Assenheimer, but with good reason we have become very careful in believing without further (pictorial) proof.
Before going into details I will send you a copy of the whole article tomorrow, as it might also deepen your MG-knowledge (although from 1948/49 onwards only relevant in Heinz-Gerd Jäger`s case).

[uechtel]

[uechtel]

With the article at hand (thank you very much for that) I think I can identify this picture as Fürstenberg at Hamburg in 1947. Falkenhausen had No. 30 in the same class, so the number isn´t too far away from that and the whole venue with the spectators so close at the track fits very much to this event.




And another question came up, as the text tells, how Assenheimer salvagd the former Wiswedel car and brought it to the start at Hockenheim. Now in the entry list he appears with an "HRG", another quite mysterious British make, that I "discovered" only recently. So perhaps one of our specialists on British sports cars here around is able to solve this problem. Car No. 27 in the following picture, HRG or MG?

[David McKinney]

The car appears more MG than HRG to me
But there was an HRG in Germany at this time, if the car raced by Werner Hillegart in 1938 and 1939 survived

[uechtel]

Thank you for that. Taking your reply and that story I think "MG" is more probable. But then why is it a "HRG" in the entry list? Perhaps Assenheimer owned this one, too. After all he was a car dealer.

I´m afraid, I have never seen a HRG (consciuosly) so I would be keen to see how they looked like. Is there a picture available somewhere in the internet?

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by uechtel
Is there a picture available somewhere in the internet?

http://fourth-gear-l...es/1937 HRG.jpg

[eukie]

HRG has some very decent LeMans-finishes to it's name:
1937 13. (A.C. Scott / E.A. Halford) 2nd 1500ccm-class
1938 10. (Peter Clark / Marcus Chambers 2nd 1500ccm-class (behind an Adler ...)
1939 14. (Clark / Chambers) 1st 1500ccm-class
1949 8. (Eric Thompson / J. Fairman) 1st 1500ccm-class
German mag Oldtimer Markt 6/2000 gives a rough summary of the marque's history. I wasn`t aware that there was a HRG racing in Germany. Interesting!

[eukie]

But there was an HRG in Germany at this time, if the car raced by Werner Hillegart in 1938 and 1939 survived

At least Hillegaart's HRG seems to have survived the war - and still exists. In 2001 a HRG said to be the ex-Hillegaart one was demonstrated at the Nürburgring Oldtimer GP by Klaus Salomon from Hamburg.

[uechtel]

and I have missed that

[eukie]

"Das Auto"-report on the 1952 Avus F2-race: Armand Philippe has been a denazification officer in Germany.

[Hugo Boecker]

Thanks to bidochon we now knew a little more on Armand Philippe

Originally posted by bidochon
some pictures of the French driver Philippe in reality : Armand Kotja , he work for French secret service , for a nebulous job !!! for these pictures my brother say : pictures taken in Deutschland palatinat in 1949 outside a house which was used like arm warehouse , we have been take here ( why ? ) by a israel colonel called Bec..ell who was found assasinate later !!! what are incredible time , sometime curious meeting in racing cars is' nt ?

from this thread

[uechtel]

A great step ahead in this cause!

And the mention of the Palatinat ("Pfalz" in German) fits very good to his Oggersheim residence as written in the first post of this thread. But Kotja doesn´t sound really French in my ears. A case similar to Orley perhaps?

[uechtel]

Ah I see, somebody asked that question already in the other thread.

[bidochon]

have a look for my thread : please help me with my father's photo archive , here is some photos of Armand Philippe

[uechtel]

Yes, I´ve seen this. Great photos!

But at the moment there is not much for me to contribute there, everything I know has already been posted.

To get this thread more complete, perhaps we should repeat the photos here, too, like Hugo has already started:




Indeed both from Saarbrücken 1949. The writing on the first picture tells it was Philippe Armand´s first race win. Unfortunately I am not able to read what is written on the second picture, but car #4 should be indeed Helfrich (as the louvres configuration on Roese´s car was different).

As I already wrote I think there was some connection between Helfrich, Karch, Philippe Armand and probably also Gräske, so it may be that Philippe got the car over this connection. Do you know whether he owned it or was it just borrowed?

[uechtel]

The Balsa Special pictures. Unfortunately I am again not able to read the text.

[GIGLEUX]

Picture 2: holding and going to victory, to my friend Prats.

Picture 4: In memory of a beautiful day. To my great friend Prats who has all my trust.

Picture 3: can somebody identify the event?

[uechtel]

Thank you for translation!

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
Picture 3: can somebody identify the event?

The advertising seems to be Spanish or maybe Portuguese. And you say Armand owned the car in 1951 and sold it to Nersessian for 1952. So could it be a support race at the Spanish GP at Pedralbes? Or maybe Oporto or Villa Real, but for those I have no knowledge about Philippe´s participation.

[Hugo Boecker]

Definitvly not Porto.
The tower in the back looks like a light house.

[GIGLEUX]

Think it is Villa Real, as you can read Recife on one of the adverts.

[Hugo Boecker]

i don't think so Jean Maurice.
Here you'll find a lot of shots from Vila Real, but none fits.
http://sportscar.com...1_pioneiros.htm

[humphries]

Just a possibility but could this No3 photo have been taken at the 1100cc Sports car race in Madrid?
This race was on 30 October,1949.
It was held on the Circuit de la Cuidad Universitaria which is on a hill above Madrid.
Armand Philippe was 6th in the 60 lap final, three laps behind the winner Raymond Sommer.
He was reportedly at the wheel of a Simca-Deho.

John

[Hugo Boecker]

John this was one of my thoughts too.
In Christian Huets book "Gordini un sorcier une equipe" is a picture from this race showing Sommer's Gordini. In the back is a cathederal-tower But I don't think it is the same .So I ruled that out.

Philippe used the Balsa-special in 1951/52 before the car was sold to Nersessian.
Perhaps the picture is from one of the lesser French race-circuits like Agen or Bressurie. There were sportcar race in 51/52

[humphries]

Hugo

I don't know the origins of the Balsa Spl (or Spls) but it may be that the Simca-Deho used by Philippe was later re-engined with a BMW unit. The "Spanish" car and the Balsa Spl identified by Jean-Maurice have much in common and the latter seems to be a beefed up version of the former with a large bulge incorporated into the bonnet.

I visited the university site, that had military connections, and there were a number of towers over the extensive campus.

It is certainly not Agen as I have visited the site of that circuit as well.

John