66 replies to this topic

[VAR1016]

It is my understanding that the first production car with twin overhead camshafts was the 2-litre Ballot, variously reported as being produced in 1921 or 1923. Apparently Ballot produced 50 cars. One survives in England (I have seen it) and was found in a lock-up garage in Hastings.

After the Ballot, the next candidate is the 3-litre Sunbeam, introduced in 1925.

Sunbeams missed the boat, because production of a car based on the 1914 T.T. winner was under consideration in 1919.

Does anyone have any further information on this topic (yes I know that the American hot-rodders did this in 1885, but apart from them.... )

PdeRL

[Ray Bell]

Would that Ballot have been the Targa Florio model as seen at Phillip Island? Maybe not... it was built, it seems for the 1926 Targa.

Anyway, the engine from this fateful car survives in Western Australia...

[biercemountain]

While not terribly nostalgic, I saw a show recently that talked about an aluminum block, DOHC, 350cui engine that was developed for the Corvette not too long ago.

I asked my brother about it (he's a mechanic) and he'd heard of it but said it was an incredibly expensive option with very high maintainence costs compared to a push rod 350. He also said you paid a premium for horsepower that wasn't THAT much more than a hot-rodded stock block.

Still, it sounds like one sweet engine.

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Would that Ballot have been the Targa Florio model as seen at Phillip Island? Maybe not... it was built, it seems for the 1926 Targa.

Anyway, the engine from this fateful car survives in Western Australia...

No, I think that these cars (i.e. the 50) were production cars. They were however, developed from Ballot's racing efforts - the 5-litre Indianapolis cars of 1919 and the 3-litre Grand Prix cars of 1920-21. Ballot retired from racing in 1922, so the car you mention must have been a special of some sort I think,

The 2-litre production versions were four-cylinders - [EDIT: 70 x 130mm]. They were capable of 90 mph, very fast for the time - especially for a 2-litre.

Particularly interesting in terms of twin-cam production cars was that the prototype Rolls-Royce "20" apparently had twin-cams and four valves per cylinder; this would have been around 1921 - do we have a R-R expert on the Forum who knows more about this?

PdeRL

[WDH74]

biercemountain-wasn't the 'Vette with the aluminum twincam engine the ZR-1? It had a special Lotus-developed mill in it, I believe, but I forget if it was a twin cam or not. Massively expensive when they were new, compared to a regular smallblock Corvette.
I remember reading that GM had problems with a batch of early ZR-1 Corvettes. Turns out that they were built in the middle of a Michigan winter, and the guy who was loading them onto train cars and trailers discovered he could spend way less time out in the cold if he just gunned the cars across the parking lot at redline in first gear on stone cold engines.
-William

[VAR1016]

On this site there is a picture of the beautiful Ballot engine. The article states that three cars survive, and Ray, the one pictured lives in Australia.

http://worm.rkweb.org/WoNov03.pdf

PdeRL

[Ray Bell]

I don't know whether that '1926 Targa Florio' description is correct or even if it denotes a model that was called that from the factory... but the car in question was the one from which the engine in Western Australia emanated.

The car crashed with fatal results in practice for the 1935 Australian Grand Prix at Phillip Island, with the remains being purchased by Jack Nelson from WA. Some bits he didn't take to the west, and so the fuel tank was used in Jim Gullan's Wolseley Hornet at the 1936 South Australian Grand Prix (with sad results...) and the car was rebuilt on a Chev 4 chassis frame.

Preparation was complete in time for the Lake Perkollili event of 1936, but the engine blew up prior to trekking the car out to the desert for this race meeting. A Ford V8 engine replaced the four prior to the Albany races.

The car was then reconstructed with a new body and over the years received a couple more of these, with engine transplants and owners coming along in number too... Syd Barker and Mick Geneve being the outstanding ones, engines included a Chrysler six and finally a Corvette V8.

This is the car that crashed at Caversham in 1959 and killed Geneve... both fatal accidents occurring when the car got out of control on long straights.

The engine was rebuilt in recent times and put on display... Jack Nelson, fortunately, lived long enough to see this take place.



Sorry, I can't read pdf files, for some reason Adobe Acrobat has simply never worked on this computer, though I've had it running on others.

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by Ray Bell


Sorry, I can't read pdf files, for some reason Adobe Acrobat has simply never worked on this computer, though I've had it running on others.

Ray, you have my sympathy. My computer refuses to send mails with attachments - all my boffin friends cannot understand the problem.

As for "Acrobat" I HATE it - grossly overrated and in my experience pointless.

if you search "Ballot Twin-cam" on Google you will find it and you may be able to read the file in "HTML" (whatever that is)

Regards
PdeRL

[Ray Bell]

Yeah, thanks, I can read html files... whatever the bit after 'hyper text' means... and for that matter, whatever 'hyper text' means!

Have you tried setting up an e.mail account on www.myownemail.com for the purpose of sending attachments? It's a browser-based type like Hotmail, but without the spam (mostly) and the need to replenish every 30 days.

And it has a bundle of domain names to choose from... I've got raybell@mynetaddress.com for instance.

Off to check google... Jack Nelson was very happy to see that engine rebuilt, he was about 86 years old when it fired up again, he told me about it most excitedly.

[T54]

HTML = Hyper Text-Modified Language.

It's actually rather simple but I agree that Acrobat PDF files suck.

The ZR-1 engines were built by Mercury marine and were indeed, twin-cam per bank of cylinders. They gave 380HP but a good pushrod actually gave more easily and with a lot less trouble. Frankly if one looks at a single-cam engine with short pushrods, there is little wrong with it compared with an overhead cam.
The Ballot engines were of course patterned after the 1911-1913 Peugeot 4-cylinder twin-cam 4-valve designed by Ernest Henry and made to function by "les charlatans".

The Duesenberg and Miller were patterned after the Ballot... and the Bugatti T51 after the Miller. It never ends.

[GIGLEUX]

Interesting to read about the Ballot (what a beautiful engine!) and the 3 litre Sunbeam of 1925; but it seems everybody is forgetting the D type Salmson:totla production: 914 from July 1922 to July 1926 and it was a touring car!In fact it was the first production 2 OHC Salmson's car and also the first for any other motor manufacturer. Its origins were to be found in the engine made by Salmson for the 1921 French Cyclecar GP at Le Mans. Bore:65 mm, stroke 90 mm; capacity: 1193 cc.
The type D was followed by the D2: 197 cars from Feb.1926 to June 1929 and in the Sports cars series we found the GS (Grand Sport) AL3 and VAL3: 763 cars from April 1923 to Aug 1927 and then the GS8, AL6, AL7, GSS, GSC and GP and that only when speaking of the vintage period. In fact Salmson never leave the 2 OHCs for their touring and "GT" cars until they closed in 1956!

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
Interesting to read about the Ballot (what a beautiful engine!) and the 3 litre Sunbeam of 1925; but it seems everybody is forgetting the D type Salmson:totla production: 914 from July 1922 to July 1926 and it was a touring car!In fact it was the first production 2 OHC Salmson's car and also the first for any other motor manufacturer. Its origins were to be found in the engine made by Salmson for the 1921 French Cyclecar GP at Le Mans. Bore:65 mm, stroke 90 mm; capacity: 1193 cc.
The type D was followed by the D2: 197 cars from Feb.1926 to June 1929 and in the Sports cars series we found the GS (Grand Sport) AL3 and VAL3: 763 cars from April 1923 to Aug 1927 and then the GS8, AL6, AL7, GSS, GSC and GP and that only when speaking of the vintage period. In fact Salmson never leave the 2 OHCs for their touring and "GT" cars until they closed in 1956!

Thanks, that's interesting.

Those small French twin-cams were delightful. The Amilcar for example was apparnetly half of the wonmderful V-12 2-litre Delage GP car. I saw one this summer - jewellery!

As to who was first seems to depend upon whether the Ballots were made in 1921 or 1923 .

PdeRL

[Wuzak]

What about Marc Brigikt's (sp?) Hispano Suizas?

I had heard that it was from here that Ernst Henry "developed" the DOHC layout, but I can't find any info to support this.

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by Wuzak
What about Marc Brigikt's (sp?) Hispano Suizas?

I had heard that it was from here that Ernst Henry "developed" the DOHC layout, but I can't find any info to support this.

Well there were no Hispano twin-cams as far as I know. Birkigt like Henry, was Swiss.

Ernest Henry worked up to the first war at Peugeot and after for Ballot until 1922. He was copied remorslessly by, amongst others, Louis Coatalen at Sunbeams. I presume that F.T. Burgess at Humber was similarly influenced.

Again I must appeal for information about the proposed twin-cam four-valve Rolls-Royce. I only recently read about this in Malcolm Bobbitt's book "Rolls-Royce at Derby" (Breedon Books). According to Bobbitt, desgn work was completed by March 1919. Bobbitt says that one chassis was built and apparently never registered. It seems that the likely cost of producing it scuppered the design. However, the story demonstrates the influence that First World War aero-engine practice had on car engine design. I suppoes that the most successful example of this was the (single-cam) 37.2 H.P. Hispano-Suiza.

Another interesting 1920s make was the Scottish Beardmore - this was a 2-litre twin-cam and one competed at Shelsley Walsh in 1924. Do any survive I wonder?

PdeRL

[Option1]

Originally posted by T54
HTML = Hyper Text-Modified Language.

It's actually rather simple but I agree that Acrobat PDF files suck.

...

In the interest of maintaining the true pedantic traditions of TNF, it's actually HyperText Markup Language .

And I agree, PDF's do nothing that can't be done (and seen) more easily with HTML/CSS.

Neil

[Aanderson]

Originally posted by T54
HTML = Hyper Text-Modified Language.

It's actually rather simple but I agree that Acrobat PDF files suck.

The ZR-1 engines were built by Mercury marine and were indeed, twin-cam per bank of cylinders. They gave 380HP but a good pushrod actually gave more easily and with a lot less trouble. Frankly if one looks at a single-cam engine with short pushrods, there is little wrong with it compared with an overhead cam.
The Ballot engines were of course patterned after the 1911-1913 Peugeot 4-cylinder twin-cam 4-valve designed by Ernest Henry and made to function by "les charlatans".

The Duesenberg and Miller were patterned after the Ballot... and the Bugatti T51 after the Miller. It never ends.

More correctly, as lined out in most books on the Miller racing engines (and Offenhausers, Meyer Drakes, and DGS), Miller had a great opportunity to study the Peugeot and it's copycat, the Premier.

Fred Duesenberg pretty much followed his own path, however, opting for his horizontal valve "walking beam" design, then going to SOHC, and finally, after studying the Miller, chose that system for his 183/122/91 cid engines.

Art Anderson

[T54]

"More correctly, as lined out in most books on the Miller racing engines (and Offenhausers, Meyer Drakes, and DGS), Miller had a great opportunity to study the Peugeot and it's copycat, the Premier."

Not according to Griffith Borgeson who clearly spells out in his long out of print 1966 book, "The Golden Age of the American Racing Car" (W.W. Norton & Co, NY) that Harry repaired a damaged Ballot and had his eyes open very wide upon the intricacies of the French former glory.

T54

[biercemountain]

Originally posted by Option1
And I agree, PDF's do nothing that can't be done (and seen) more easily with HTML/CSS.

PDF's can contain high resolution images which HTML can't properly display or print.

Thanks to all for info on the ZR-1 engine.

[David McKinney]

t54
The first Ballot did not race till 1919, so any example Miller saw would surely have been after he'd studied Peugeot/Premier designs

[T54]

Actually, Griff's more recent Miller book from 1993 says that he had to design a whole new engine to replace the Burman-Peugeot in 1915. So much for the Ballot story...

[Option1]

Originally posted by biercemountain


PDF's can contain high resolution images which HTML can't properly display or print.

Thanks to all for info on the ZR-1 engine.

Hmmm, I disagree - given that resolution that can be seen on a screen is governed by the monitor's resolution and not the image's. Certainly I can include high-res jpg or png files in HTML/CSS pages AND get them to print correctly sized and positioned. What is harder, at the moment, is to control the resolution at which they print. Then again given the annoyance of waiting for Acrobat reader to load then the massive PDF to download (and that's on broadband) I fail to see why web designers continue to annoy a maximum number of users for a minimum benefit. However, given it's lack of nostalgic value I'll drop out of this discussion.

Neil

[davidsmanson]

Douglas Blain is preparing a definitive article on all the twin-cam Ballot types for a future issue of The Automobile. He owns the U.K. 2LS survivor. A second 2LS survivor, with 1933 bodywork, lives happily in Adelaide - it has a long competition history, possibly including a race at Maroubra Speedway. A third survivor lives with the son of its original owner, in Melbourne. The engine in W.A. is all that's left of the most competition-rich one of all, Harold Cooper's. The fact that Cooper's car was registered in Melbourne in December 1922 suggests that 1921 is a valid date - that's also when one was exhibited at the Salon de l'Automobile.

A twin-cam Beardmore with a good 1920s competition record survives in New Zealand, restored to original I believe. An elegant 4-seater tourer with rocket-like performance.

[David McKinney]

My notes say the NZ Beardmore had a single-cam engine, though I may be wrong about that. Either way, it blew in 1968, and was replaced by smaller (1656cc) 1921 engine. It was in this form when I saw it in 1984, but maybe they've located a DOHC unit by now, or patched up the old one?

[Ray Bell]

davidsmanson... first, a belated welcome to the forum... and about the Cooper car...

I would think there's a vague possibility that the fuel tank still survives, maybe even somewhere still strapped on the back of a Wolseley Hornet.

Thanks for verifying the earlier date for the Cooper car, too... it would seem that there was some wrong information about somewhere. And I just realised that it was probably me that published the year!

Maybe John Medley can come in on this, or even Graham Howard... I hadn't realised that the Coopers had Ballots quite that early...

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by davidsmanson
Douglas Blain is preparing a definitive article on all the twin-cam Ballot types for a future issue of The Automobile. He owns the U.K. 2LS survivor. A second 2LS survivor, with 1933 bodywork, lives happily in Adelaide - it has a long competition history, possibly including a race at Maroubra Speedway. A third survivor lives with the son of its original owner, in Melbourne. The engine in W.A. is all that's left of the most competition-rich one of all, Harold Cooper's. The fact that Cooper's car was registered in Melbourne in December 1922 suggests that 1921 is a valid date - that's also when one was exhibited at the Salon de l'Automobile.

A twin-cam Beardmore with a good 1920s competition record survives in New Zealand, restored to original I believe. An elegant 4-seater tourer with rocket-like performance.

Thank you David.

So if the Ballots were made in 1921, then surely they must be the first "production" twin-cams - if 50 can be counted as "production". Otherwise I suspect that it would be the Salmsons mentioned above - with Beardmore not far behind although were these true "production" cars?

If these were to be excluded then I suppose the crown would have to go to the handsome 3-litre Sunbeam.

Thanks again

PdeRL

[karlcars]

Just a note that in Britain both Newton and Maudslay showed putative production models with twin overhead cams in the autumn of 1923.

In his book "Driivng Force", Jeff Daniels considers the Salmson 1194 cc Type D 'the first true series production DOHC engine anywhere in the world,' pointing out that the Ballot was made 'in very small numbers.'

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by karlcars
Just a note that in Britain both Newton and Maudslay showed putative production models with twin overhead cams in the autumn of 1923.

In his book "Driivng Force", Jeff Daniels considers the Salmson 1194 cc Type D 'the first true series production DOHC engine anywhere in the world,' pointing out that the Ballot was made 'in very small numbers.'

Yes, my understanding was that 50 Ballots were made. How many Salmsons?

I have heard of course of Maudslay - but Newton is a new one to me.

It is difficult to define a "production" car when in the 1920s there were so many makers.

After all only about 660 4.5 litre Bentleys were made!

PdeRL

[robert dick]

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
... the D type Salmson:totla production: 914 from July 1922 to July 1926 ...

The 2-litre Ballot appeared as racing car at the 1920 Gaillon hillclimb (driven by Renard) and a few months later in the 1921 GP de l'ACF/Le Mans (Goux). The production chassis was announced at the same time, but it was not before 1924 that "La Vie Automobile" published a test (of the production car).

In Italy, there was the SPA tipo 24 and 24S (two overhead camshafts + vertical valves = no pentroof or hemispherical combustion chamber as in the Ballot or Salmson).

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by robert dick


The 2-litre Ballot appeared as racing car at the 1920 Gaillon hillclimb (driven by Renard) and a few months later in the 1921 GP de l'ACF/Le Mans (Goux). The production chassis was announced at the same time, but it was not before 1924 that "La Vie Automobile" published a test (of the production car).

In Italy, there was the SPA tipo 24 and 24S (two overhead camshafts + vertical valves = no pentroof or hemispherical combustion chamber as in the Ballot or Salmson).

Yes but I see that one was registered in New Zealand in 1922...

SPA - another one I have never heard of - it would certainly qualify - when and how many??

PdeRL

[GIGLEUX]

VAR1016: How many Salmson made? Please just read what I wrote sooner in this thread!!

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
VAR1016: How many Salmson made? Please just read what I wrote sooner in this thread!!

Apologies - old age (entropy) is getting to me

PdeRL

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by VAR1016
Yes but I see that one was registered in New Zealand in 1922......

New Zealand?

davidsmanson also mentions one being displayed at the Salon d'Automobile in 1921.

By the way, Ballot were obviously very capable people. They turned out those Indianapolis cars in some very short time... I remember discussing this with the owner of the car now in Lyons, just after he'd spent over 1000 man hours building up a new crankshaft (four pieces, from memory, with each piece joined to the next by a tapered joint... a very small machining error would make a large difference to the length of the crank and thus make all that work useless...), and in the context of the time it took to build the four cars for Indy I remarked on how little time they had to make such mistakes.

But Racing Ron remarked that an error on one could be corrected on the next crank, so enabling them to live with those tolerances until they were making the final crankshaft.

My point is, having taken minds well away from it all by myself, that just two years later Ballot were into a production twin cam car. Their obviously enthusiastic team of machinists and foundrymen and other craftsmen had proved themselves well capable of doing this kind of job in this kind of time. Easily...

And for my money, fifty cars is well within the description of 'production'...

[dbw]

the miller influenced [read copy] twin-cam design was actually first applied by bugatti to the single-cam t-46 to create the t-50....this predated the t-35 to t-51 conversion...legend [mark dees] has it that the spark plug /water jacket sealing tubes were interchangable from a miller 91 to a t-51/t-55...i don't really know if this is true as i've never tried it....however i do know both do leak quite easily!!!

[T54]

"however i do know both do leak quite easily!!! "

And so do the water-return jackets of both my 166 Offy turbo and all my Harry Mundy FPF's... all inspired by this design. Arrrrgh!

The two Miller FWD that were brought to Yurrup by Duray were at the Bugatti works in Molsheim for many years, and I remember as a kid, during a visit with my father, to have seen the black and white machine, sans engine. The tires fascinated me with the painted letters. I thought that it was so neat! (that was before "groovy" and "cool" of course). But I doubt that the jackets would be interchangeable. I think this is Urban Legend of the Wishful. No doubt that Ettore had a good look, but all the bits ARE different on a T46 or a T51 from a "91".

Both the T51 and the Miller FWD were such beautiful cars, but the one more modern is the Miller, no discussion there. Except may be for the wheels.

T54

[robert dick]

SPA tipo 24 (Societa Piemontese Automobili) was produced between 1921 and 1926 (production number unknown), a 6-cylinder 4.5-litre (85/130 mm), crankshaft in three main bearings, long chassis (wheelbase 373.5 cm) as tipo 24, shorter sport chassis (340 cm) as 24S.
see SPA at : http://www.carsfromi...hers/index.html

In Germany there was the Simson-Supra S8/50 built between 1924 and 1928, a two-litre (70/128 mm) sports chassis similar in its layout to the Ballot 2LS.

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by Ray Bell


New Zealand?

I meant Australia!

The Indianapolis Ballots: they were entered on Christmas Eve 1918 for the 1919 race and there fore had to be ready for shipping to the U.S. in April. The achievement to design and build a team of advanced cars in four months is breathtaking.

Similarly the incredibly complex V-12, 2-litre four-cam Delages were built in a few months in 1924/5.

I wonder if these 1920s people knew something that has since been forgotten?

PdeRL

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by Ray Bell



By the way, Ballot were obviously very capable people.

Ballot was taken over by Hispano-Suiza in 1931, following the failure of the late models e.g. the RH3.

David Scott-Moncrieff wrote: "[Hispano] must have been pleased to have acquired so many highly-skilled workmen, even if the design staff were no great asset"

PdeRL

[robert dick]

Originally posted by VAR1016


... The achievement to design and build a team of advanced cars in four months is breathtaking.
Similarly the incredibly complex V-12, 2-litre four-cam Delages were built in a few months in 1924/5.
PdeRL

It is true that, according to the legend, the 4.9-litre Ballots were designed and built between Christmas 1918 and April 1919. Just "built" or "assembled" would be the better expression since Ernest Henry had the entire war, four years for the design. The suppliers were exactly the same as in the case of the Peugeots, the general layout of the car was the same, the only difference being the straight-eight = in principle two Coupe de l'Auto Peugeots in a row. There was no miracle.

The same is true in the case of the Vee-twelve Delage which appeared as prototype at the 1923 GP de l'ACF at Tours where it retired because of insufficient lubrication, driver Thomas saying that the sump was just good enough to cook French fries. For the 1924 season designer Lory replaced Planchon and remodelled the car so that it was able to finish second at Lyon. In 1925 the Vee-twelve was supercharged, broke down at Spa, after two years of development. At Montlhéry the Delage won, whereby it has still to be clarified whether or not Benoist would have been the victor in presence of the Alfas. Again there was no miracle.

[Henk]

Originally posted by Wuzak
What about Marc Brigikt's (sp?) Hispano Suizas?

I had heard that it was from here that Ernst Henry "developed" the DOHC layout, but I can't find any info to support this.

It is often alledged that Marc Birkigt developed a prototype twin-cam engine in 1911, whose design was appropriated by Ernest Henry then working for Hispano Suiza, and later presented as his own creation for use in the racing Peugeot developed by ‘les charletans’. The story goes that Birkigt sued and won for the theft, but Peugeot could keep the design.

[Henk]

Originally posted by robert dick
In Germany there was the Simson-Supra S8/50 built between 1924 and 1928, a two-litre (70/128 mm) sports chassis similar in its layout to the Ballot 2LS.

The twin-cam of the Simson Supra S may have been inspired by the Ballot, but was by no means a copy. Designed by Paul Henze, the engine was widely recognized as the most advanced German design of its time. Notably innovative metallurgic construction details attracted attention. Henze had pioneered with newly developed light alloys. For the crankcase he made use of ‘silumin’ (aluminium-silicium alloy), while pistons were made of the super-light ‘elektron’ (magnesium alloy with 9% aluminium and 1% zinc) developed in Germany during WWI as a substitute for aluminium alloy. The crankshaft was chrome-plated.

Such engines were extremely expensive. It’s not surprising that not more than 50 twin-cam Supras were produced.

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by robert dick


It is true that, according to the legend, the 4.9-litre Ballots were designed and built between Christmas 1918 and April 1919. Just "built" or "assembled" would be the better expression since Ernest Henry had the entire war, four years for the design. The suppliers were exactly the same as in the case of the Peugeots, the general layout of the car was the same, the only difference being the straight-eight = in principle two Coupe de l'Auto Peugeots in a row. There was no miracle.

The same is true in the case of the Vee-twelve Delage which appeared as prototype at the 1923 GP de l'ACF at Tours where it retired because of insufficient lubrication, driver Thomas saying that the sump was just good enough to cook French fries. For the 1924 season designer Lory replaced Planchon and remodelled the car so that it was able to finish second at Lyon. In 1925 the Vee-twelve was supercharged, broke down at Spa, after two years of development. At Montlhéry the Delage won, whereby it has still to be clarified whether or not Benoist would have been the victor in presence of the Alfas. Again there was no miracle.

Oh dear!

The worst of growing old is that one's illusions are constantly shattered! Thanks though for the fascinating information.

It must be said though that the Coupe de l'auto Peugeots had quite large engines: and the Ballot was 4914cc so a fair amount of drawing would have been required just for the cylinder block(s).

Best wishes

PdeRL

[T54]

A few years back, I had the priviledge to see the 2-liter Delage V12 engine being re-assembled by Steele Thierklesson for the late Bob Sutherland. I took lots of pictures, and we pondered on the lubing and cooling problems caused by what we felt was incorrect design of both systems. I was laso amazed by the poor quality of the castings, the Alpax looking more like Bultaco engine cases from the dark days of the Spanish Franco dictatorship. Looked like you could peel layers of metal like old cardboard... Time for JB Weld everywhere!
Steele got the thing together eventually and the splendid car with its engine-turned body made a spectacular appearance at the Monterey Hysterics. It was not too fast but sure looked the business.
It is very sad that Bob Sutherland's children could not care less for these old cars and dumped all the cars at auction for what I consider to be peanuts because they were not willing to wait for the market to come back, which it did.

T54

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by T54
A few years back, I had the priviledge to see the 2-liter Delage V12 engine being re-assembled by Steele Thierklesson for the late Bob Sutherland. I took lots of pictures, and we pondered on the lubing and cooling problems caused by what we felt was incorrect design of both systems. I was laso amazed by the poor quality of the castings, the Alpax looking more like Bultaco engine cases from the dark days of the Spanish Franco dictatorship. Looked like you could peel layers of metal like old cardboard... Time for JB Weld everywhere!
Steele got the thing together eventually and the splendid car with its engine-turned body made a spectacular appearance at the Monterey Hysterics. It was not too fast but sure looked the business.
It is very sad that Bob Sutherland's children could not care less for these old cars and dumped all the cars at auction for what I consider to be peanuts because they were not willing to wait for the market to come back, which it did.

T54

I too am amazed that the quality of the ccastings was poor.

It is well known that Louis Delage did not hold back when funding these GP cars.

Apparently the rear axle casing was machined from the solid...

PdeRL

[T54]

The alloy used was horrid. It reminded me of the terrible aluminum and steel alloys forced onto the Spanish motorcycle raring industry in the 1960's. I cannot tell you how many Borgo pistons and rings seized or broke on my Derbi and Bultacos...
Junk it was because of the import restrictions by Franco. As a matter of fact, the German Kreidler company built a nearly complete engine for Hans Ancheidt's Bultaco out of Mahle forgings and better metals for crank, rod and cases, so that Hans could practice on the 125cc that was going barely faster than the 12-speed exotic dual-gearbox Kreidler 50cc GP bike.

As far as the Delage, Alpax was quite new then, and may be what appears to be crummy today was state of the art then. A recent example would be the original Coventry-Climax FPF cases and head castings compared with the Crosthwaithe & Gardiner beautiful castings of today. And we are only talking 1950's to 1990's here.
Regards,

T54

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by T54
The alloy used was horrid. It reminded me of the terrible aluminum and steel alloys forced onto the Spanish motorcycle raring industry in the 1960's. I cannot tell you how many Borgo pistons and rings seized or broke on my Derbi and Bultacos...
Junk it was because of the import restrictions by Franco. As a matter of fact, the German Kreidler company built a nearly complete engine for Hans Ancheidt's Bultaco out of Mahle forgings and better metals for crank, rod and cases, so that Hans could practice on the 125cc that was going barely faster than the 12-speed exotic dual-gearbox Kreidler 50cc GP bike.

As far as the Delage, Alpax was quite new then, and may be what appears to be crummy today was state of the art then. A recent example would be the original Coventry-Climax FPF cases and head castings compared with the Crosthwaithe & Gardiner beautiful castings of today. And we are only talking 1950's to 1990's here.
Regards,

T54

Alpax is a name that I have not come across. And it was of course the Italians who were the original masters of aluminium alloy casting.

Given your comments re Franco, one wonders was there an exemption for Ricart at Pegaso or were these also made of dreadful stuff?

It also makes me wonder how Ferrari could afford his Siluminium castings given that economic state of Italy in 1947.

Is it possible that this particular alloy deteriorates with time? Incidentally Doug Nye's BRM book refers to porous castings on the V-16 which certainly surprised me.

PdeRL

[GIGLEUX]

Originally posted by VAR1016


Oh dear!

The worst of growing old is that one's illusions are constantly shattered! Thanks though for the fascinating information.

waIt must be said though that the Coupe de l'auto Peugeots had quite large engines: and the Ballot s 4914cc so a fair amount of drawing would have been required just for the cylinder block(s).

Best wishes

PdeRL

In fact it was two 2.5 1914 Coupe de l'Auto Peugeot engines, 75x140 2472cc 4 cyl. The 1919 Ballot was 74x140 4817cc 8 cyl. Not very big differences!

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by GIGLEUX


In fact it was two 2.5 1914 Coupe de l'Auto Peugeot engines, 75x140 2472cc 4 cyl. The 1919 Ballot was 74x140 4817cc 8 cyl. Not very big differences!

Blimey!

I'm surprised that the Coupe de l'auto cars were so small.

And given those dimensions, I'm surprised that Henry did not make the cars in four weeks rather than four months!

PdeRL

[Ray Bell]

Absolutely fascinating stuff... and for a mere observer who simply had the joy of seeing Ron Egerton return his car to life after innumerable blowups by making a new crank of his own and substituting Oldsmobile conrods and providing pressure lubrication to the big ends... well, you understand I hope.

There are some lovely legends around this car and its reconstruction... culminating in Ron owning and using the car for seven or eight years towards the end of his life and then selling it on to the museum well before he died... effectively both having his cake and eating it.

One is the means by which he acquired the spare engine from Briggs Cunningham after he found the car, then Ford V8 powered, under a haystack on a farm in western NSW while looking for vintage motorcycles. But I think I've told that one before...

[marion5drsn]

I have oftentimes wondered about the relationship of Ernst Henri and Marc Birkigt Anen and if Henri had anything to do with the 718 cubic inch aircraft engine used so much by the French in World War 1. Some of the places I have read of a friendship between the two but no place have I read of the fact that Henri worked for Hispano-Suiza. For example just where was Henri when the Hisso engine was designed? I find it somewhat hard to believe that the engine was designed without Henri’s help and input. I also have been unable to find any history of Henri’s life and death.
That the charlatan & faker Louis Coatalen copied Henri is not very hard to understand. As when he copied the bore and stoke of the De Dion Bouton he failed completely on the connecting rods and used articulated rods, which were far too short and created the Worlds Worst V-8 engine. Some people have said that he caused Sunbeam to fail in aircraft engines, as no one trusted their engines again. M.L. Anderson

[T54]

"I have oftentimes wondered about the relationship of Ernst Henri"

Eeeer... Ernest Henry

"and Marc Birkigt Anen and if Henri had anything to do with the 718 cubic inch aircraft engine used so much by the French in World War 1."

It sounds doubtful since Ernest Henry was spirited by Peugeot from Hispano years before the war and years before that engine was designed... But someone here may know better?

"That the charlatan & faker Louis Coatalen copied Henri is not very hard to understand."

Henry WAS one of the "Charlatans". Why would Coatalen, as part of the group, be a faker?