16 replies to this topic

[VDP]

Can somebody give me more nfos about the Buc 1500 build in the 20 s , info is very scarce about his one off racing car
thanks

Robert

[bill moffat]

..a little. The Bucciali brothers produced their own vertical twin and V4 two-stroke specials in 1922 and 1923, enjoying success at Boulogne in particular.

In 1924 they went into production with the AB5, powered by a rather more conventional 4 pot SCAP engine. These cars were raced extensively and evolved into the one-off AB6 which was motivated by a 1489cc single ohc engine. Most notable result for this latter car was 8th in the 1927 San Sebastian GP.

Various other non sporting fwd cars were then built getween 1928 and 1933.

[VDP]

Thanks for it
Production for racing cars or touring AB 5 wasn t the SCAP engine used on most of the light cars like Lombard, ... ?
Engine capacity 1100 ?
Robert

[bill moffat]

Yes. the Lombards had a 1.1. Litre twin ohc engine, latterly available with a Cozette blower.

However the SCAP engine in the Bucs was a 1600 I believe.

[Vitesse2]

The Bucciali which de Maleplane drove to 6th in the National Trophy at Boulogne was another car altogether: in fact it was a Guyot Spéciale under another name - not sure whether it was the original 1925 car or a 1926 Indy model. But presumably not the one involved in de Courcelles' fatal accident?

[VDP]

Fresh my memory Courcelles was it at Monthléry in 1926 or 1927 in the opening event ?

robert

[Vitesse2]

Course de Formule Libre de l'ACF, July 2nd 1927.

[VDP]

Thanks for it

Robert

[dretceterini]

Isn't Christian Huet, the Gordini expert, related by marriage to the Bucciali family?

[fines]

Wasn't the Guyot actually a Rolland-Pilain? And what about the Schmid, wasn't that the same car, i.e. born as Rolland-Pilain and precursor of the Guyot???

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by fines
Wasn't the Guyot actually a Rolland-Pilain?

The original Guyot Spéciale was based on a Rolland-Pilain chassis but with a Burt McCollum sleeve-valve engine installed. Whether this chassis was one of the Grillot-designed straight eights or a Henry/Schmid six (see below) I don't know. There is a grainy picture of a Duesenberg-engined Rolland-Pilain special built by Guyot in "Blue Blood" - that appears to be a straight eight chassis.

Originally posted by fines
And what about the Schmid, wasn't that the same car, i.e. born as Rolland-Pilain and precursor of the Guyot???

Michael, are you mixing up your Schmidts and Schmids?

Two of the 1926 Indianapolis Guyots were raced as Schmidt Specials, while Schmid was the name used in 1924 for the former Rolland-Pilain 6-cylinder cuff-valve cars. So you would probably be right if it turned out that the 1925 Guyot Spéciale was based on a Henry/Schmid six.

[GIGLEUX]

Gentlemen, please the thread is about Buc and Bucciali and not Rolland-Pilain, Schmid, Guyot and
Scmidt! Please no confusions: the first Guyot was based on a Rolland-Pilain chassis with a 3 liter 8 cyl Duesenberg engine. The Schmid also had a R-P chassis and a specifical 6 cyl sleeve valve engine
(the car was first entered in 1923 ACF GP as a R-P but did'nt appear then in 1924 at ACF and italian GP as a Schmid). The 1925 Guyot had a Guyot frame and a Guyot engine, sleeve valve based onBurt Mc Collum principle and developped with help from René Cozette.The Indy cars were named Schmidt Sp from Albert Schmidt managing director of the Continental Motor Co; they also were with sleeve valve 6 cyl engine fitted. Ernst Schmid (from the R-P-Schmid, 1923-1924) was one of the technical managers of SRO firm which produced roller balls.

[fines]

Hence my confusion: Both the 1924 Schmid and 1925 Guyot had 6-cylinder Burt-McCollum engines and were based on Rolland-Pilain chassis - or are you saying the 1925 Guyot wasn't? BTW, I'm slightly confused here: I don't think I've ever heard of a Duesenberg-engined Guyot!

[GIGLEUX]

The 1923-1924 Schmid had a Rolland-Pilain chassis and a 6 cylinder sleeve valve engine Schmid system.
The 1925 Guyot Sp (GS) had a Guyot chassis and a 6 cylinder sleeve valve engine Burt Mc Cullom
system and made by Guyot.
As Guyot was an ex-works driver for Rolland-Pilain and Duesenberg at Indy he had the opportunity to obtain a Rolland Pilain chassis and a Duesenberg 8 cyl 3000cc engine which he mated together
and by so building a Special he raced in little races and maybe hillclimbs. He finished third at Miramas for the Opening meeting of the banking on July 13 th 1924.

[robert dick]

1.5-litre Buc AB6 : engine designed by Némorin Causan (in 1908 Causan was responsible for the single-cylinder of the Delage which won (driven by Guyot) the GP des Voiturettes/Dieppe), 6-cylinder, OHC-head, 61/85 mm, 70 HP at 4000/min.

= = = = =

Confirmation of Jean-Maurice's post :

Schmid/driven by Goux in the 1924 ACF : 6-cylinder built by SRO (ball bearing factory of Schmid & Roost in Oerlikon near Zürich and Annecy/France), desing by Ernst (or Ernest) Schmid (no "t") sleeve-valve system similar to the Peugeot displayed at the 1919 Paris Salon (neither Knight nor Burt/McCollum).

First Guyot Spéciale : 1923 Rolland-Pilain frame + 3-litre 8-cylinder Duesenberg engine.

"Real" Guyot Spéciales : 2-litre and 1.5-litre 6-cylinders according to Burt/McCollum system, design by Albert Schmidt (with "t").

[robert dick]

Buc racing cars :
1922 GP des Voiturettes/Boulogne - Violet engined Buc driven by Angelo Bucciali - 2-cylinder 2-stroke (82/130 mm), similar to the Violet engines used in the Weler of the 1921 Coupe des Voiturettes (September 1921/Le Mans).

1923 GP des Voiturettes/Boulogne - Violet engined Buc driven by Angelo Bucciali - same engine but shorter frame (wheelbase 228 cm) - the latest engine, a Violet Vee-four (70/95 mm) + compressor was not ready.

1924 Boulogne/Montlhéry - CIME 4-cylinder (67/105 mm), OHC-head, Cozette compressor; wheelbase 250 cm, track 122 cm.

1925 Boulogne/Montlhéry - Causan 6-cylinder (61/85 mm), OHC-head, 7 main bearings.

Buc production cars :
type AB4-5 - SCAP 1.6-litre engine (70/105 mm), OHC-head, wheelbase 267,5 cm, track 128 cm - around 100 cars produced between 1925 and '27.

= = = = =

Guyot racing cars :
- Rolland-Pilain frame + 3-litre Duesenberg engine was called Guyot Spéciale in 1924
- 1925 - one two-litre 70/86 mm two-seater (design by Cozette + Guyot - Burt/McCollum system)
- 1926 - four 1.5-litre 60,7/86 mm single seaters/Indianapolis 500 (design by Cozette + Guyot + Albert Schmidt - Burt/McCollum system)
- 1926/27 - two 1.5-litre two-seaters (flat radiator) - the first one appeared in Octorber 1926 with Guyot at the wheel at Montlhéry/Coupe du Salon, the second one in March 1927 with de Maleplane at Miramas.
This second 1.5-litre two-seater was sold to Bucciali and received a Bucciali badge.

[ERault]

According to MotorSport, Jacques Guerin raced "one of the old 2-litre Guyot Specials" at the 1932 Grand Prix de la Baule. That would make it the 1925 car in Robert's list. Can anyone confirm ?