Can anyone tell me, why John Cooper stoped his F1 activities in late 60ies?
John Cooper's F1 end
Started by
tyrrellp34
, Jan 03 2004 12:08
38 replies to this topic
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#2
bill moffat
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Posted 03 January 2004 - 12:54
The answer probably lies in the year 1964. In that fateful year Charlie C. died and John was seriously injured in a road accident. Although John remained an influence the team was subsequently sold on and was effectively under the leadership of Ken Tyrrell.
Under the 3 Litre formula the team struggled somewhat with Maserati and BRM engines, then McLaren left to form his own team. Other setbacks included the death of team-driver Scarfiotti and Redman's massive accident at Spa.
A bit like Lotus a couple of decades later the team sort of fizzled out. Similar circumstances you could argue..
Under the 3 Litre formula the team struggled somewhat with Maserati and BRM engines, then McLaren left to form his own team. Other setbacks included the death of team-driver Scarfiotti and Redman's massive accident at Spa.
A bit like Lotus a couple of decades later the team sort of fizzled out. Similar circumstances you could argue..
#3
VDP
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Posted 03 January 2004 - 13:02
John Cooper never recovered with his injuries while trying the twin Mini, and the dead of Charles Cooper his father, the managing of the racing team was given to K Tyrrel as interim for the formula 1, In 1965 cooper was sold to Chipstead, a company owned by ex driver J Sieff and the racing was managed by R Salvadori.
in 1966 cooper adopted te Maserati engine due mainly because Chipstead was also importe of Maserati for UK.
The fall ended in 1969 with the public auctionin 1969 for the remaining materials and cars like Cooper F 5000.
iF MY MEMORY IS GOOD
Try to find a book wrote by ... Doug Nye .
Robert
in 1966 cooper adopted te Maserati engine due mainly because Chipstead was also importe of Maserati for UK.
The fall ended in 1969 with the public auctionin 1969 for the remaining materials and cars like Cooper F 5000.
iF MY MEMORY IS GOOD
Try to find a book wrote by ... Doug Nye .
Robert
#4
tyrrellp34
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Posted 03 January 2004 - 17:47
Originally posted by bill moffat the team was subsequently sold on and was effectively under the leadership of Ken Tyrrell.[/B]
I never heard this before..
#5
Mike Argetsinger
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Posted 03 January 2004 - 18:35
I remember it a little differently than some of the statements above would indicate.
First of all John Cooper's accident, as I recall, was some time in the Spring of 1963. Charles Cooper's fatal heart attack was in October 1964. So they were not in the same year - in fact, nearly a year-and-a-half apart.
It was after John's accident in 1963 that Ken Tyrell stepped in to help Charles by handling the management of the race team. I don't recall how long this arrangement lasted but I don't believe it extended in to 1964. And most emphatically, Tyrell's involvement was unrelated to the eventual sale of the company as would be inferred from above.
Finally, I cannot go along with the assertion that John Cooper "never recovered" from his injuries. In fact he remained a vital part of the team throughout 1964 (I don't recall how soon he became active again in '63 after his accident) and even played a role, albeit a diminished one, after the sale to the Chipstead Group. One may say (as many have) that he was never quite the same again - and for the basic purpose of this thread that point of view may have relevance - but I just want to correct the impression that may have been given that he never recovered. He may never have been the same - but he was still a hell of a guy!!
First of all John Cooper's accident, as I recall, was some time in the Spring of 1963. Charles Cooper's fatal heart attack was in October 1964. So they were not in the same year - in fact, nearly a year-and-a-half apart.
It was after John's accident in 1963 that Ken Tyrell stepped in to help Charles by handling the management of the race team. I don't recall how long this arrangement lasted but I don't believe it extended in to 1964. And most emphatically, Tyrell's involvement was unrelated to the eventual sale of the company as would be inferred from above.
Finally, I cannot go along with the assertion that John Cooper "never recovered" from his injuries. In fact he remained a vital part of the team throughout 1964 (I don't recall how soon he became active again in '63 after his accident) and even played a role, albeit a diminished one, after the sale to the Chipstead Group. One may say (as many have) that he was never quite the same again - and for the basic purpose of this thread that point of view may have relevance - but I just want to correct the impression that may have been given that he never recovered. He may never have been the same - but he was still a hell of a guy!!
#6
Jesper O. Hansen
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Posted 03 January 2004 - 18:58
Originally posted by Mike Argetsinger
Finally, I cannot go along with the assertion that John Cooper "never recovered" from his injuries. In fact he remained a vital part of the team throughout 1964 (I don't recall how soon he became active again in '63 after his accident) and even played a role, albeit a diminished one, after the sale to the Chipstead Group. One may say (as many have) that he was never quite the same again - and for the basic purpose of this thread that point of view may have relevance - but I just want to correct the impression that may have been given that he never recovered. He may never have been the same - but he was still a hell of a guy!!
John Cooper was the guest in BBC's "Hard talk" a few years ago (we're talking ca. 2000 - first time I ever saw pictures of him). I estimated him to be about seventy at the time and he didn't exactly
looked like a person that was any shadow of his former self, but instead an elder, thoughtfull, easygoing fella in an engaging conversation with a host interested in his guest and his story.
But how did he spend the interviening three decades then?
Jesper O. Hansen
#7
Ray Bell
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Posted 03 January 2004 - 19:12
Brabham's departure (and commencement as a competitor in the business...) in 1961... McLaren's similar departure and setting up in opposition at the end of 1965, these were undoubtedly hurdles to be overcome.
The increasingly competitive nature of F1, the increasing costs, I believe the scene was becoming one where Cooper's talents were just not enough any more.
The increasingly competitive nature of F1, the increasing costs, I believe the scene was becoming one where Cooper's talents were just not enough any more.
#8
petefenelon
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Posted 03 January 2004 - 21:15
Originally posted by Jesper O. Hansen
John Cooper was the guest in BBC's "Hard talk" a few years ago (we're talking ca. 2000 - first time I ever saw pictures of him). I estimated him to be about seventy at the time and he didn't exactly
looked like a person that was any shadow of his former self, but instead an elder, thoughtfull, easygoing fella in an engaging conversation with a host interested in his guest and his story.
But how did he spend the interviening three decades then?
Jesper O. Hansen
He spent most of it running a garage in Sussex - think he bought it from Salvadori....
#9
Felix
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Posted 03 January 2004 - 21:30
It was (still is) a BMW dealership in West Sussex, and when BMW introduced the new Mini and included first a Cooper version, then a 'Works' evolution, the wheel had turned full circle.
#10
D-Type
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Posted 03 January 2004 - 21:38
No single reason, more a combination of unfortunate events that were more critical in combination than they would have been if considered individually.
As well as running a Formula 1 team, Cooper were in business to sell racing cars. They had a virtual monopoly of the 500cc Formula 3 until it died out. They were the only manufacturer to actively sell cars for the 1500cc Formula 2 from 1956 to 1960. After Maserati's demise they became the main manufacturer of production Formula 1 cars. In 1960 Lotus came along with the 18, followed by the 20, 21, 22, and 24. Then Brabham came on the scene as well. Cooper couldn't compete in the customer stakes and lost their main source of income.
Although the Mini Coopers were successful, Coopers didn't make that much out of them. The downside was that Cooper were forced into using a BMC engine in their Junior / Formula 3 car when the Ford-based engines were clearly superior. This also contributed to their lost sales.
Jack Brabham left to set up on his own. He was more than just a driver and had a large input into the design and development of the cars. Then they lost Mclaren who was in the same mould.
Then John Cooper had his accident and the team lost his leadership and enthusiasm.
Then finally they lost Charlie Cooper, who for all his faults did ensure that what budget they had was well spent. (Whether he knew where it was really going or not)
You could say that their whole world fell in.
I strongly recommend you read Doug Nye's Cooper Cars which I was lucky enough to be given for Christmas.
As well as running a Formula 1 team, Cooper were in business to sell racing cars. They had a virtual monopoly of the 500cc Formula 3 until it died out. They were the only manufacturer to actively sell cars for the 1500cc Formula 2 from 1956 to 1960. After Maserati's demise they became the main manufacturer of production Formula 1 cars. In 1960 Lotus came along with the 18, followed by the 20, 21, 22, and 24. Then Brabham came on the scene as well. Cooper couldn't compete in the customer stakes and lost their main source of income.
Although the Mini Coopers were successful, Coopers didn't make that much out of them. The downside was that Cooper were forced into using a BMC engine in their Junior / Formula 3 car when the Ford-based engines were clearly superior. This also contributed to their lost sales.
Jack Brabham left to set up on his own. He was more than just a driver and had a large input into the design and development of the cars. Then they lost Mclaren who was in the same mould.
Then John Cooper had his accident and the team lost his leadership and enthusiasm.
Then finally they lost Charlie Cooper, who for all his faults did ensure that what budget they had was well spent. (Whether he knew where it was really going or not)
You could say that their whole world fell in.
I strongly recommend you read Doug Nye's Cooper Cars which I was lucky enough to be given for Christmas.
#11
Mike Argetsinger
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Posted 03 January 2004 - 22:51
Originally posted by D-Type
Then John Cooper had his accident and the team lost his leadership and enthusiasm.
Then finally they lost Charlie Cooper, who for all his faults did ensure that what budget they had was well spent. (Whether he knew where it was really going or not)
You could say that their whole world fell in.
Perhaps. But let us not forget that in 1966 Cooper fielded a very competitive team and enjoyed some excellent results. They had great drivers, an excellent engineer/designer, ditto for the team manager, and a seasoned and accomplished group of mechanics. And they won their final Grand Prix in '67 although, admittedly, they became less a factor as the year progressed. '66 was really their last year as a potential winning combination on a consistent basis.
#12
petefenelon
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Posted 03 January 2004 - 23:36
I think some teams are "of their time" and Cooper was one of them - they were the arch-improvisers - mechanics rather than engineers, taking a very pragmatic approach to the sport. If you look at the years where Coopers were strong in F1, they really were transitional periods - going onto Avgas in '58 with the prospect of the 1.5l F1, with Vanwall and Maserati essentially going away, meant that it was really down to whether Cooper could stretch their sensible, reliable cars enough to beat a complacent Ferrari or a fragile Lotus. And they did. BRM were never quite a force over a whole season...;) Their resurgence in '66-7 was down to them having one of the few full 3.0l engines and a fairly decent car, nothing special; even then they were clearly well behind Brabham and arguably no better than Ferrari at the time...
I admire Cooper immensely for what they achieved in F1 with limited resources, and for "legitimising" the mid-engined F1 car (although i'm sure that would've happened pretty soon anyway - those funny little Porsches anyone?;) - but they're a team that seized the initiative when the opposition wasn't quite as strong as it could be. Lotus and BRM and Brabham eventually ate them alive in the 1.5l formula because Cooper didn't have the resources to move forwards (i wonder what their monocoque might've achiever though?) - the same happened when the DFV arrived in F1. Had Cooper been able to secure DFV supplies who knows - they might've survived into the 70s, but I doubt John would've felt at home in the sponsorship-driven paddocks of that era and I suspect he would've slipped into retirement soon anyway even if the team had carried on... maybe Uncle Ken, who was well-connected to Cooper's anyway, would've developed his setup around the bones of the Cooper team? - now there's a what-if ;)
I admire Cooper immensely for what they achieved in F1 with limited resources, and for "legitimising" the mid-engined F1 car (although i'm sure that would've happened pretty soon anyway - those funny little Porsches anyone?;) - but they're a team that seized the initiative when the opposition wasn't quite as strong as it could be. Lotus and BRM and Brabham eventually ate them alive in the 1.5l formula because Cooper didn't have the resources to move forwards (i wonder what their monocoque might've achiever though?) - the same happened when the DFV arrived in F1. Had Cooper been able to secure DFV supplies who knows - they might've survived into the 70s, but I doubt John would've felt at home in the sponsorship-driven paddocks of that era and I suspect he would've slipped into retirement soon anyway even if the team had carried on... maybe Uncle Ken, who was well-connected to Cooper's anyway, would've developed his setup around the bones of the Cooper team? - now there's a what-if ;)
#13
RAP
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Posted 05 January 2004 - 13:38
Just to clarify one point, until last week John Cooper Garages was in Ferring, West Sussex and was a main dealer for HONDA, not BMW. They also sold the Mini Cooper but NOT other BMWs. It has now sold the Honda dealership and does the BMW Mini and the "old" BL Minis only, now run by John's son (can't remember his name off hand- Michael ??). They also run the UK Mini Challenge series of races & hillclimbs. All Hondas sold by Cooper had a sticker placed on them of a winners garland with "World Champion 1959/60" inside it. John was a regular at places like Goodwood until his death.
#14
T54
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Posted 05 January 2004 - 17:41
Question for Doug Nye:
How much new material in your latest Cooper book is added to what is in your older one, of which I have a cherished copy signed by both Sir Jack and John Cooper?
Not that I am cheap but if it is a re-edition, there is no point...
Thanks a million regardless, the original book is just terrific!
Regards,
T54
How much new material in your latest Cooper book is added to what is in your older one, of which I have a cherished copy signed by both Sir Jack and John Cooper?
Not that I am cheap but if it is a re-edition, there is no point...
Thanks a million regardless, the original book is just terrific!
Regards,
T54
#15
Doug Nye
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Posted 05 January 2004 - 17:46
T54 - none so far as I know - it's a straight American reprint of the last previous mildly revised and extended edition which we did for John - including more Mini saloon coverage by Mike Lawrence. My interest in 'racing cars' kind of sags when you're talking about something with space for four or more seats, which is roofed-in, and basically manufactured in thousands. Save your money mate.
DCN
DCN
#16
T54
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Posted 05 January 2004 - 18:46
Doug,
Thanks. Regardless, the content of the book is first class, so even with the added Mini-Cooper stuff (I am with you on this, giant yawn...) I highly recommend it to the elitists out there to become a bit more modest about the achievements of humble people.
Regards,
T54
Thanks. Regardless, the content of the book is first class, so even with the added Mini-Cooper stuff (I am with you on this, giant yawn...) I highly recommend it to the elitists out there to become a bit more modest about the achievements of humble people.
Regards,
T54
#17
Doug Nye
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Posted 05 January 2004 - 20:34
Originally posted by T54
Doug,
Thanks. Regardless, the content of the book is first class, so even with the added Mini-Cooper stuff (I am with you on this, giant yawn...) I highly recommend it to the elitists out there to become a bit more modest about the achievements of humble people.
Regards,
T54
Thanks - the Cooper book remains my personal favourite amongst those I've done.
As for "more modest about the achievements of humble people"...ummm - I take it you mean "more enthusiastic"????
DCN
#18
petefenelon
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Posted 05 January 2004 - 21:02
Originally posted by T54
Doug,
Thanks. Regardless, the content of the book is first class, so even with the added Mini-Cooper stuff (I am with you on this, giant yawn...) I highly recommend it to the elitists out there to become a bit more modest about the achievements of humble people.
Regards,
T54
If you want another Cooper book to go with DCN's there's always Grand Prix Carpetbagger, a John Cooper autobiography (that felt very ghosted), Arthur Owen's "The Racing Coopers" (pretty good on the early days), or Mike Lawrence's short, non-definitive but amusing and nicely illustrated book on Cooper in the Sutton's Photographic History of Transport series.
(I am not quite sure how it happened, but I found my copy of "Cooper Cars" sitting forlornly in a bookshop that had no other racing books, marked down to about 6 quid, in the early 90s. Talk about a bargain!
#19
petefenelon
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Posted 05 January 2004 - 21:03
Originally posted by Doug Nye
Thanks - the Cooper book remains my personal favourite amongst those I've done.
DCN
Certainly the most entertaining and the one with the most "stories" in it - and probably the one I've read most times!
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#20
T54
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Posted 05 January 2004 - 21:55
I take it you mean "more enthusiastic"????
Yes of course. I am a bit tired of all the snobs vaunting the greater social value of a sophisticated and noble Maserati, Vanwall or Ferrari front-engine car, regardless if Moss or Brabham cleaned their clock with those "ugly little bugs built by backwards engineers who just lucked out", as one of them' baronets once told me
. You can imagine my reply
...I have two other Cooper books, one given to me by John Cooper and the other by Ed Hugus. But yours is just wonderful, and I have been able to personally verify how accurate it was in its smallest of details.
T54
#21
Richard Neale
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Posted 07 January 2004 - 11:51
Among the many reasons for Coopers demise not yet metioned were ~~~
Owen Maddock's departure, the withdrawal of the St Michael (M&S) sponsorship deal due to the poor showing of the Maserati engine and of course the end of the 'Garageist' era with the onward march of technology.
Owen Maddock's departure, the withdrawal of the St Michael (M&S) sponsorship deal due to the poor showing of the Maserati engine and of course the end of the 'Garageist' era with the onward march of technology.
#22
ian senior
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Posted 07 January 2004 - 12:24
[QUOTE]Originally posted by petefenelon
[B]
If you want another Cooper book to go with DCN's there's always Grand Prix Carpetbagger, a John Cooper autobiography (that felt very ghosted)
Can I make a personal plea for everyone to avoid this book like the plague. One of the major disappointments in my book-buying career. Go for Doug's book instead.
[B]
If you want another Cooper book to go with DCN's there's always Grand Prix Carpetbagger, a John Cooper autobiography (that felt very ghosted)
Can I make a personal plea for everyone to avoid this book like the plague. One of the major disappointments in my book-buying career. Go for Doug's book instead.
#23
Richard Neale
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Posted 07 January 2004 - 12:40
Another good book is 'Racing Coopers' by Arthur Owen.
As for Grand Prix Carpetbaggers ~ I can only agree ~ complete waste of space!
As for Grand Prix Carpetbaggers ~ I can only agree ~ complete waste of space!
#24
T54
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Posted 07 January 2004 - 17:42
If you want another Cooper book to go with DCN's there's always Grand Prix Carpetbagger, a John Cooper autobiography (that felt very ghosted)
I know that it's not the greatest, but mine is signed by John Cooper (who gave it to me as a gift) and subsequently signed by Moss, Salvadori, Hill and Brabham. So am I to throw it away?
Phat chance!
T54
#25
Richard Neale
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Posted 07 January 2004 - 19:48
T54 ~~~~ You could always sell it and reinvest in a 'Good Book' !
#26
Ray Bell
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Posted 07 January 2004 - 21:47
Several good books!
Those autographs would surely draw a good quid...
Those autographs would surely draw a good quid...
#27
HistoryFan
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Posted 20 January 2016 - 16:34
what can you say about the Maserati engines, which were really old, heavy and so on. Why did Maserati not build newer engines? Was there just no interest in F1? Why not?
#28
D-Type
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Posted 20 January 2016 - 17:55
They were available at a price Chipstead/Cooper could afford. They were 3-litre engines and more powerful than stretched Climax and BRM V8s. If you look at 1966 there was very little available. Then the DFV came along and every other racing engine was outdated.
#29
Doug Nye
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Posted 20 January 2016 - 20:54
Considering their respective budgets, and the opposition they faced - Team Lotus, Brabham-Repco, some Eyetie outfit called Ferrari - , and their V12 engine's specific fuel consumption (and its weight), Cooper and Maserati did a pretty darned good job 1966-67.
They won two Grands Prix, after all - which is more than McLaren-Honda has managed in its latest iteration, or Red Bull-Renault for that matter...
#30
john winfield
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Posted 08 July 2020 - 18:46
Jonathan Sieff, racing driver, head of Chipstead, and one-time owner of Cooper, died earlier this month.
https://peeragenews....ooper Cars, &c.
#31
Richard Jenkins
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Posted 08 July 2020 - 19:24
Oh that is sad news. Thanks for posting this John.
#32
Vitesse2
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Posted 13 July 2020 - 21:46
Obituary for Jonathan Sieff now on the Telegraph website. Possibly paywalled, but for some reason I can read the site without paying! (Don't tell the Barclay brothers!)
https://www.telegrap...-marks-spencer/
#33
ChrisJson
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Posted 14 July 2020 - 06:23
Also I could read it and was a little bemused by this. "Chris Bristow was then delegated to drive with Jonathan,
but he and Alan Stacey were killed in the Belgian Grand Prix at the wheels of Chapman Lotus Elites."
Christer
#34
Derwent Motorsport
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Posted 14 July 2020 - 08:25
Wasn't Sieff so part of the M&S owning family?
#35
Tim Murray
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Posted 14 July 2020 - 08:47
Yes - check the obituaries above. 
#36
john winfield
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Posted 14 July 2020 - 10:45
Here's Allen's obituary of JS for those of us, unlike Vitesse, unable to escape the Barclays' bugging devices:
https://www.oldracin.../Jonathan_Sieff
In Maurice Hamilton's Grand Prix - British Winners (1991) there's an excellent picture (p.108/9) of Sieff, Surtees and a Cooper mechanic walking back to the Reims paddock in 1966 as, in the distance, the Cooper-Maserati is pushed away. Big John had snatched the lead from the middle of the front row (between the two Ferraris!) only for the car to falter within yards of the start. In the picture Jonathan Sieff is listening to a remarkably cheerful-looking Surtees as they stroll across the straw of the Reims infield.
Edited by john winfield, 14 July 2020 - 10:46.
#37
Richard Jenkins
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Posted 14 July 2020 - 11:22
Here's Allen's obituary of JS for those of us, unlike Vitesse, unable to escape the Barclays' bugging devices:
https://www.oldracin.../Jonathan_Sieff
In Maurice Hamilton's Grand Prix - British Winners (1991) there's an excellent picture (p.108/9) of Sieff, Surtees and a Cooper mechanic walking back to the Reims paddock in 1966 as, in the distance, the Cooper-Maserati is pushed away. Big John had snatched the lead from the middle of the front row (between the two Ferraris!) only for the car to falter within yards of the start. In the picture Jonathan Sieff is listening to a remarkably cheerful-looking Surtees as they stroll across the straw of the Reims infield.
John, WATN is my side, so that link you refer to is written by myself on Allen's site.
#38
john winfield
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Posted 14 July 2020 - 12:21
John, WATN is my side, so that link you refer to is written by myself on Allen's site.
Richard, sorry! I didn't appreciate the WATN / ORC link-up. I should have noticed your 'byline'......
#39
Richard Jenkins
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Posted 14 July 2020 - 14:36
No worries John, I appreciate the link in the first place.
