32 replies to this topic

[GregY]

Hello all,

I have become interested in historic Grand Prix racing and recently became aware of this board. I would like to get people's opinions on a couple things:

1) I seem to find the cars and drivers of the 70's to be the most interesting. What is the board's opinion on the "best" decade of Formula 1 and why?

2) I have been reading a lot about Francois Cevert. The concensus appears he was destined to be a great driver. But after winning one race in 1971, he got shut out two years in a row. What is the basis for assuming he was going to blossom in 1974? He was already 29, that seems kind of old to me, but maybe that was norm in 1970's Formula 1. For the record, I am a Cevert "fan", I am not trying to put him down by any means.

3) I regret that I was never able to attend a F1 race at Watkins Glen. I grew up about 30 minutes from the track, and was about 12 years old at the time of the last race. Can anybody tell me what it was really like (I mean REALLY paint me a picture!)? Or recommend any references?

Thank you, I really like this board!

Greg

P.S. If anybody has any pictures of Cevert at Watkins Glen (non-accident related, I've seen enough of those), or that award winning picture of him airborne (not sure when or where) could you please post them? Thanks again.

[Mawerick]

Originally posted by GregY
3) I regret that I was never able to attend a F1 race at Watkins Glen. I grew up about 30 minutes from the track, and was about 12 years old at the time of the last race. Can anybody tell me what it was really like (I mean REALLY paint me a picture!)? Or recommend any references?

Not exactly from the 70's, but from 1967 ;)

http://forums.atlasf...&threadid=64911

[Wolf]

And how about this one?

http://forums.atlasf...238#post1259238

[philippe7]

.....and this one too !

http://forums.atlasf...&threadid=62178

[Ray Bell]

The reason '74 should have been a big year for him was simple...

Jackie Stewart, the team leader he'd followed through '73, was retiring and handing over the reins to Cevert... he was in the box seat to continue netting wins for Ken Tyrrell and potentially a title for himself.

[philippe7]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
The reason '74 should have been a big year for him was simple...

Jackie Stewart, the team leader he'd followed through '73, was retiring and handing over the reins to Cevert... he was in the box seat to continue netting wins for Ken Tyrrell and potentially a title for himself.

It is of course always touchy to state if's and if not's……but the way the history of the 1974 world championship eventually turned out , one can fairly assume that , yes, François Cevert would have been a very strong contender for the title.

Jody Scheckter, in his first full F1 year , finished 3rd in the championship, only 10 points adrift from Emerson Fittipaldi . But he was totally lost during the first three races , in which he and Patrick Depailler had to use the old 005/006 Tyrrells, which were notoriously very tricky to drive…..from the moment he got hold of the 007 model, a very good design, easier to drive and reliable , he scored two wins and 9 point finishes…..and either he DNF'ed , or finished inside the points….which says a lot about the virtues of the car.

Therefore, it is fair to assume that Cevert , following on the brilliant form he was in during the 73 season, would normally have scored some points in his usual 006 during the early season races , and that he would not have done worse than Jody Scheckter aboard the 007 …..which would have brought him very close to Emerson and Gianclaudio by the end of the year …


And yes, due to his natural talent but also to Ken Tyrrell and Jackie Stewart 's coaching, François Cevert had by the end of 73 blossomed into a very , very good driver….not only fast, but reliable , steady headed, consistent….it was then , as it is today, difficult to compare drivers in different cars , but in the Tyrrell he was on par with Jackie Stewart , and in the Matra Sport Prototypes, he was head and shoulders above his team mates , Beltoise, Pescarolo and Larrousse – none of those world champion material maybe , but still…..and he was not only quicker, but with a natural ease that strongly frustrated the 3 others who had to sweat a lot to set approaching times….

There is an anecdote I read from a reliable source (maybe Jean-Claude Hallé's book, I'm not sure….) . During practice for the 1973 Monza 1000km's, Cevert was turning some laps in the Matra M670 3 liter V12 , and the three other drivers mentioned above were discussing in the pits . Francois blasted by the pit straight ( no chicanes in Monza then , remember…) and - Henri Pescarolo tells the story- " we heard the scream of his engine slowly decreasing, and , unusually, fading out to silence withought the faintest change in the note , the slightest drop of the revs……we all stared at each other in disbelief and fear……because we instantly undestood that this time, François had taken the Curva Grande flat out , without lifting his foot one second……and that now we would be expected to do the same…."

[gerrit stevens]

Originally posted by GregY
Hello all,

2) I have been reading a lot about Francois Cevert. The concensus appears he was destined to be a great driver. But after winning one race in 1971, he got shut out two years in a row. What is the basis for assuming he was going to blossom in 1974? He was already 29, that seems kind of old to me, but maybe that was norm in 1970's Formula 1. For the record, I am a Cevert "fan", I am not trying to put him down by any means.

What is old. I don't think 29 is not that old. I will not remind you of Fangio but remember Damon Hill, already in his thirties when debuting in F1.

During the 1973 seasons there were several drivers of Cevert's age or even older
From the other 44 drivers who competed in 1973 only 13 were younger. Among them Carlos Pace (29, another would be champion), Jacky Ickx!! (28, but already past his prime), John Watson (27), Jean-Pierre Jarier (27), Jochen Mass (27), Emerson Fittipaldi (27), James Hunt (26), Niki Lauda (24) and Jody Scheckter (23).

Older were
Chris Amon (30, also past his prime)
Mario Andretti (33, not driving F1 in 1973)
Jean Pierre Beltoise (36, with 35 his only GP win)
Mike Hailwood (33)
Graham Hill (44)
Denny Hulme (37)
Ronnie Petterson (29, 11 days older than Cevert)
Clay Regazzoni (34)
Carlos Reutemann (31, first GP win in 1974)
Peter Revson (34, won his first GP in 1973)
Jackie Stewart (34, retiring)

In fact François Cevert was still one of the younger drivers. Looking at older drivers like Ronnie Petterson, Clay Regazzoni, Carlos Regazzoni one might indeed think what could have been.

But what happened to Jackie Ickx.

Gerrit Stevens

[David McKinney]

Amon past his prime in 1973?
You didn't seem him in the Ensign in 1976 then?

[petefenelon]

Therefore, it is fair to assume that Cevert , following on the brilliant form he was in during the 73 season, would normally have scored some points in his usual 006 during the early season races , and that he would not have done worse than Jody Scheckter aboard the 007 …..which would have brought him very close to Emerson and Gianclaudio by the end of the year …

Remember also that 007 would probably have been a very different car had Cevert still been around to drive it - I've seen it claimed in a number of places that Gardner would've done another short-wheelbase, "twitchy" little car like 005 and 006 if he'd had a JYS or a Cevert in the cockpit.
As it was, with Tyrrell facing a fairly uncertain driver lineup they went for a more conventional car - not that 007 was bad....

Cevert's survival brings another "what-if" into play - given the former relationship between Tyrrell and Matra (ended largely because JYS insisted on having a Cossie behind him), perhaps Tyrrell with Cevert on board could've (A) kept Elf money longer, and also (B) bagged the Matra V12 instead of Shadow (intermittently) and Ligier....?

[Arjan de Roos]

I think the seventies were a memorable decade of F1. In that era I became an F1 addict. There were some characters around, car development was quite visible even experimental, paddock freely accescible, etc. The eighties had it too. Later I became interested in sixties and fifties F1 as well. Many interesting decades. But if you arrive at a GP venue and hear the sound and smell the odours, its still damn beautiful and racing emotions boil up.

[fvebr]

Originally posted by petefenelon

perhaps Tyrrell with Cevert on board could've (A) kept Elf money longer, and also (B) bagged the Matra V12 instead of Shadow (intermittently) and Ligier....?

I Don't think so ....as ELF was sponsoring Drivers... If Cevert entered Tyrrell, it is known that Depailler, Pironi were pushed by ELF...(At the very start...Depailler was much more prefered than Cevert at Racing School final test... But they had to count with the chrono...)

ELF Stayed with Tyrrell Until Renault entered Serious F1 results (1978)
Renault was lining up 1 car in 78 and after hard work found reliability at the end of season Jabouille scoring the 1st points.

Coming with 2 cars in 1979, A french constructor, with french drivers, with french tyres, showing good results... A french sponsor had to follow... Do not forget that Elf was also sponsoring Endurance cars... (And not talking about other series)

Shadow used Matra Engine in 1975 but the engine was hard to fit and encountered heat problems... If the Matra V12 didn't stay in the Shadow it's because of a lack of Money as UOP was dropping the Shadow Team.. If Tyrrell wanted the Matra Engine, Elf could have afford it...

... But it's just an opinion.... Followed by a question :

Tyrrell left Matra taking Stewart with him in 1970...How were the relationships between Matra and Ken after that ???

[joriswouters]

I like the seventies. Dunno why. It just has charm. Maybe it's because of alle the video clips of Mawerick.

[philippe7]

Originally posted by fvebr


Tyrrell left Matra taking Stewart with him in 1970...How were the relationships between Matra and Ken after that ???

Well.....it will only be a guess since not many of the people actually involved ( JL Lagardère and Ken Tyrrell above all....) are still with us to comment...but I would answer "polite and non-existent"...


Remember that the Matra/Tyrrell "split" was after all originated by the change of rules which enforced " soft" ( rubber) aviation-style fuel tanks for the start of the 1970 season....which meant that the Matra-Cosworth MS80, whose monocoque was characteristically strengthened by numerous bulkheads inside the lateral fuel tanks, was neither eligible , nor easily modifiable to the new fuel tanks rules....otherwise , we can guess that Tyrrell could have continued another year with the MS80 which was far from obsolete...

But then, Matra were for internal policy reasons expected to run their home-made V12 in 1970, and Tyrrell wanted to stick with Cosworth ( due to JYS own links with Ford , but also to the fact that they both thought the Cosworth had maybe less top-end power than the V12's , but much more torque , which seemed to matter most to them....) ....so Tyrrell bought a couple of March 701's to start the season, and soon started to work on Tyrrell 001 , whose heritage to the Matra MS80 could only be denied by shortsighted amateurs.....

[philippe7]

Originally posted by gerrit stevens



But what happened to Jackie Ickx.

Gerrit Stevens

Jackie Ickx, just like Chris Amon, wrote his last brilliant F1 pages in Mo Nunn's Ensigns.....

His last stint at Ligier, when he replaced an injured Patrick Depailler, was probably not necessary, he was out of his depth after being thrown into the "wing cars" deep end in a totally different world than what he had been used to.

But he did continue brilliantly for ages in sportcars , and even in Paris-Dakar style raids.....a very distinguished carreer from my point of view.....and above all , which is an achievement for a driver who started in the 60's , he survived to tell us about it !

[GregY]

Wow, I can't believe how much stuff you guys know.

Thank you for the links. I especially like "Gilles in the rain", that's a great story.

I am looking forward to learning more.

Greg

[Pedro 917]

A portrait of Cevert, painted by my brother :

http://home.pi.be/~mathiasg/cevert.htm


and Gilles in the rain, Zolder 1980 :

http://home.pi.be/~m...illeneuveg2.htm

[KWSN - DSM]

To me the 1970ies were the decade I became aware of an outside world, and started my interest in F1. However despite the many good drivers, and strong personalities I do not consider the decade a "Golden period".

To me the 1970ies is a decade of glorified F3000. Buy a DFV, build a chassis and go racing. That is not what F1 should be about. Apart from Ferrari no other manufacturer made a serious attempt at F1 (yes I know that Renault did start their team in the 1970ies). And part of what makes F1 the pinacle of autoracing was not a part of the overall scene then.

[philippe7]

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM

To me the 1970ies is a decade of glorified F3000. Buy a DFV, build a chassis and go racing. That is not what F1 should be about.

Yes...the "kit cars" they were called......although , you also had Matra, Alfa, Tecno, BRM......

Obviously, "feelings" have much more to do with my personal glorifying of the 70's than actual logical facts....yes, F1 racing is in fact much closer , competitive today than it was "then" , when a 1 minute , or one lap advantage for the winner , was not unusual......but the way we feel about it is more a matter of the age we were then , boyhood heroes , etc......than rationality ( I'm afraid my english will soon prove very unsufficient if I attempt to dwell into philosophical grounds.....)

I am in the 40+ bracket , and for me the 70's were THE golden years.....some folks here are in their 50's and will consider the 60's as the best ever.....that's life.....that's the human touch . Doesn't matter......( and yes, I've had a little too much wine over lunch...)

The only SURE ;) thing is that drivers then were a very special breed of human beings....

[D-Type]

Originally posted by philippe7



~
I am in the 40+ bracket , and for me the 70's were THE golden years.....some folks here are in their 50's and will consider the 60's as the best ever.....that's life.....that's the human touch . Doesn't matter......( and yes, I've had a little too much wine over lunch...)

The only SURE ;) thing is that drivers then were a very special breed of human beings....

How true. I am in my fifties and I look back to the 50's and 60's. Fangio, Moss, Brabham, Clark, Hill, Gurney, etc

[LittleChris]

Originally posted by philippe7




I am in the 40+ bracket , and for me the 70's were THE golden years.........

Me too. For me 1973 was a seminal, though tragic, year, I left little school & went to BIG school and at the same time began to take a more detailed interest in the motor sport world courtesy of passed on copies of Motoring News and Motor Sport, whereas before, much of my interest had been based on what I saw on TV as opposed to the few meetings I'd been taken to over the previous 5 years.

Incidentally 'Hawkeye' by Ivan McLeod is a classic along the lines of 'All Arms & Elbows '. Buy it now !

Chris

[Lotus23]

D-Type, I agree with your observation that much beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder.

For me, the sixties were "golden", but only because I was young and single and able to follow the sport more closely then.

For me the 70s and 80s were more given over to raising kids and starting a second career, so it wasn't 'til the nineties that I really got back on track again.

I think that any decade has its proponents, and you'll find 'em all here!

[KWSN - DSM]

I am a +40 sentient male as well, although a fairly new addition. Born November 7th, 1963. My "golden decade" is the 1980ies.

[Rainer Nyberg]

Originally posted by philippe7
I am in the 40+ bracket , and for me the 70's were THE golden years.....

This is true for me as well and to be more specific, before the advent of the ground-effects cars.
This phenomena killed the otherwise wonderful design diversity of this era.

[Lec CRP1]

I'm here as one of the few(?) people on TNF who was actually born in the 70s (8th Dec. 1975). My, well, "golden" years were the early 1990s (yes, I can hear the various snorts and nervous laughter). I've watched Schumacher change from a promising youngster into a global dominator.

But then, I'm mostly here to find out about 60s and 70s F1. For me, it's more interesting because I wasn't there. My memories only stretch as far back as Keke Rosberg. I read TNF (and various other things) for history, always a passion of mine, not nostalgia.

[2F-001]

That's an interesting point, Matthew: the term 'nostalgia' does imply a remembrance (and cherishing) of things from past experience. I'm sure most of us here do that, but very many are also interested in what you properly term as history. I guess there is less actual nostalgia for you, hereabouts, than practically everyone else. (I guess we shouldn't hang too much baggage on the actual name of the forum!)

[Rainer Nyberg]

Originally posted by 2F-001
That's an interesting point, Matthew: the term 'nostalgia' does imply a remembrance (and cherishing) of things from past experience. I'm sure most of us here do that, but very many are also interested in what you properly term as history.

Then the 70s-80s are nostalgia for me, and everything prior to that is history at least for me

The 1990s were mostly an yawn as the current era.

The history part grows in me more and more (to a large part thanks to this forum!), but I am also generally interested in history (to be specific the 1850-1970s era).

[baggish]

Originally posted by Rainer Nyberg


This is true for me as well and to be more specific, before the advent of the ground-effects cars.
This phenomena killed the otherwise wonderful design diversity of this era.

That's almost my opinion as well, except I tend to put the blame on the turbos. Turbos needed money to develop them, which meant i) the return of the manufacturers ii) fewer teams could afford the engine iii) larger investment means fewer risks. Ground effects did lead to some interesting designs e.g. Brabham fan car, Lotus 80 and 88, Arrows A2, etc.

Of course the turbo cars were spectacular as well, but the racing was less interesting to me. Partly this was due to the need to make 220 (and later 195) litres of fuel last the whole race, but mainly because the number of potential winners of each race was significantly reduced. Especially in 1984 and 1988, one could wake up on race morning with about a 75% chance of seeing a McLaren victory later in the day. There was no mystery or tension there! This was a problem for me for most of the 1990s as well.

As for Cevert, I think he's a little over-rated: here's one reason: http://forums.atlasf...497#post1509497

Jon

[philippe7]

Originally posted by baggish

As for Cevert, I think he's a little over-rated: here's one reason: http://forums.atlasf...497#post1509497

Jon

Well, that's Jenks's opinion, and he was entitled to think so....

Also, that was in '71.....early in François' career .

[dmj]

Isn't at some extent truth that during past few years we had many times accused Barrichello and Irvine for doing more or less the same job Cevert did, whilst we all praise Cevert? Sounds a little bit illogical to me. I have no doubts that Cevert was a good racing driver but even if he'd survived I don't consider him a true match to likes of Fittipaldi and Lauda. I see him as an occassional winner, like Peterson, Ickx, Reutemann or Regazzoni, maybe even a champion if in right place in right time, like Scheckter or Hunt. Of course, I hope you understood that I hold Cevert in high regard, obvious from with whom I'm comparing him! And I don't think winning the championship is the only goal of a racing driver - I simply think that Lauda and Fittipaldi were two obviously best F1 drivers of their generation (along with Andretti - but he wasn't so strictly focused to F1 to truly exploit it) and Cevert was just one of other great drivers of that era.

But there is "number two" case too. Was there ever a driver that was an obvious number two in his team and went to win the championship, apart from Damon Hill? I doubt so (Mansell? Hulme? Graham Hill? No, I don't think so...) Almost as to say "once number two, always number two". Even Stirling Moss can be fitted into this plot, even if he was number two to one of strongest candidates for title of the best and most completely skillfull driver of all the time. There were cases when a champion was obviously slower than his teammate after he'd already won the title (Farina, Hill, Piquet...) but one who in early stages of career found that his teammate is simply faster almost never managed to reach the top afterwards...

[JaviM]

I am in 30,and started to follow F1 in the 80s,but I don´t consider that decade as the best,neither the 90s.
The late 60s and 70s were,for me, the best eras. Appearing the wings,new chassis designs,the wing-cars,the sponsors in cars,cars sliding everywhere,four wheel drift and obviously drivers like Stewart,Rindt,Hill,Lauda,Andretti,Peterson....make the era my best choice.

[Barry Boor]

Buy a DFV, build a chassis and go racing. That is not what F1 should be about.

[jj2728]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by GregY

3) I regret that I was never able to attend a F1 race at Watkins Glen. I grew up about 30 minutes from the track, and was about 12 years old at the time of the last race. Can anybody tell me what it was really like (I mean REALLY paint me a picture!)? Or recommend any references?

[/QUOTE

2 immediate memories one good one very sad:

1970 and i was walking along on the infield portion of the track that bordered the main straight through a group of trees. i remember it being a typical "glen" day...brilliant fall colours, crisp air, etc.,.....anyhow from a distance i could hear the wail of a matra v-12 as it got closer and closer...in a blue flash it was by me headed for "zoo corner"....to this day i have yet to hear an engine sound as glorious as that matra v-12

1973 and we were a top the pits when cevert had his accident...one minute the sound of engines and cars flashing by......the next, total silence.....it was very surreal and sad......i shall never forget it...i have a picture that my father took of beltoise walking down pitlane after he'd found out that his brother-in law had been killed...it is a very touching yet haunting photograph....

those are 2 of my glen memories....there has never been a finer place on this continent imho to hold a grand prix

[eldougo]

Greg Y . To my way of thinking the 70's where just a great time for F1 cars and motor racing all together , the big MONEY people had not got there gubby hands on the( sport ) which is was then
and it allowed lots of young designer chaps to enter with new ideas and create a f1 kit car that could on it's day run with the works teams and give them a taste of what it's like and i can tell
you from personal experience to get your car into the points was a major step and as good a
feeling as winning the GP .
The cars had feeling and simplicity that was lost in later years ,unique looks was the order of the time an people were not affraid to try something different to get the edge most failed but that was
for us progress . Anyway i had my rave, thanks for bringing up the topic of the 70's i wasin my 20's and enjoyed ever minute of it.