30 replies to this topic

[Enzo]

It is said that the VW Beetle was a copy-paste of the Tatra T97 car. Could anyone shed more light to this? Thanks in advance!

[diego]

I suggest you read Ludvigsen's book "Battle for the Beetle".

Not really a "cut and paste", but certainly followed a similar design philosophy.

[Enzo]

According to the Tatra's site, the Beetle is actually a copy-paste of the T97...

In the late 1930s it became clear that VW had used several patents of the Tatra factory. It's likely Porsche used these patents because of the enourmous presure from Hitler to develop the KdF-Wagen in a short time and on a tight budget. Just before the outbrake of WWII Tatra had ten legal claims against VW for infringement of patents. Although Porsche was about to make a settlement with Tatra, Hitler stopped him and told Porsche he would "solve this problem". Shortly after he invaded Czechoslovakia and gained control over the Tatra factory. Hitler immediately stopped the production of the T97 after only 508 cars were built. The T97's big brother, the V9-powered T87, did remain in production during the first years of the war. The T87 was considered by German high command as the ultimate car for the new German Autobahns and was a real favourite amongst German officers.

In the following link you can read the full story:


Tatra T97

[Wolf]

Enzo, but the difference is also pointed out in that article- a difference that made for a huge chunk of Beetle's success:

even though the T97 was listed at more then five and a half times the KdF-Wagen's target selling price.

As a small O.T., I was watching 'Herbie Goes to Monte Carlo' (don't mock me, I actually like those movies ) this afternoon and was wondering which engine sound they used for the car- does anybody know?

[diego]

Oh, I didn't realize that was a rhetorical question you posed. I thought you were actually looking for new information.

[Enzo]

Originally posted by Wolf
Enzo, but the difference is also pointed out in that article- a difference that made for a huge chunk of Beetle's success:



As a small O.T., I was watching 'Herbie Goes to Monte Carlo' (don't mock me, I actually like those movies ) this afternoon and was wondering which engine sound they used for the car- does anybody know?

I will stop to your phrase: "a difference that made for a huge chunk of Beetle's success".
It makes me wondering.... what's really success? Big sale numbers or new tecnological breakthroughs that "opens the road of evolution" of automobiles...?

Technologically and in terms of design, Beetle was a real copy-paste of the Tatra T97...But the success -with the meaning of the word success that we are used to give- went to VW, not Ledwinka, this brilliant engineer...

[Wolf]

Enzo- in my book, success is not so easy to define. Sales may or may not have something to do with it, albeit when someone sells gazzilion models and that basically unchanged design remains in production for half a century, one must be doing something right... OK, so what constitutes Beetle success? Design for one- part of it may stem from T97, but still functionality and simplicity were trademarks of mechanics of the car, while visual design certainly made impact.

But still, let's face it- ask any proud owner of Beetle (myself included) whether he or she would have purchased it at five times the price they paid, and I think You'll get the same answer... One can have revolutionary car that is not successful, if it's not 'available'. It's akin to many innovations being attributed to Chapman, despite their well recorded existence in GP racing before that, only because nobody jumped on the bandwagon before he did it. I fear in that price range, T97 never stood a chance to become as successful (in sales terms, but also in terms of recognizability, massive affection from public, or what it did for company that produced it).

BTW, Your remark reminds me of the saying about aircraft engineers- they are people who can design a part that weighs 5lb, which any idiot can design to weigh 10lb. In a way, Porche made the desigh 5x cheaper than Ledwinka could, and that also means quite a bit in terms of mechanical engineering/design of a production car.

[Enzo]

Originally posted by Wolf
Enzo- in my book, success is not so easy to define. Sales may or may not have something to do with it, albeit when someone sells gazzilion models and that basically unchanged design remains in production for half a century, one must be doing something right... OK, so what constitutes Beetle success? Design for one- part of it may stem from T97, but still functionality and simplicity were trademarks of mechanics of the car, while visual design certainly made impact.

But still, let's face it- ask any proud owner of Beetle (myself included) whether he or she would have purchased it at five times the price they paid, and I think You'll get the same answer... One can have revolutionary car that is not successful, if it's not 'available'. It's akin to many innovations being attributed to Chapman, despite their well recorded existence in GP racing before that, only because nobody jumped on the bandwagon before he did it. I fear in that price range, T97 never stood a chance to become as successful (in sales terms, but also in terms of recognizability, massive affection from public, or what it did for company that produced it).

BTW, Your remark reminds me of the saying about aircraft engineers- they are people who can design a part that weighs 5lb, which any idiot can design to weigh 10lb. In a way, Porche made the desigh 5x cheaper than Ledwinka could, and that also means quite a bit in terms of mechanical engineering/design of a production car.

I admit that making a product that is cheap and can find its way to the poorer people is one part of the success. I never said that selling is not a success. But for me, the real part of the success is the technological breakthroughs that Ledwinka gave to the automobile world. There were many people that opened the road and made cars as they are like today. One major example is Vincenzo Lancia. Do you know his patents? Lancia Lambda was the car that changed the way of constructing and designing cars. It was the car that was "responsible" to the fact that today we are seeing cars with load-bearing body or cars with no seperate chassis as was these days, or cars with independent front suspension. Vincenzo Lancia was the man who built a car with an integrated electrical system, with springs in clutch plates, etc. I don't mind if he sold 1.000.000.000 cars or more. I can say that he was successful because he was a pioneer. For me, this type of things deserves the 90% of the success and sales the 10% or even less of the whole success.

[Wolf]

Enzo- but what was exactly, engineering-wise, so avant garde about Beetle? I cannot think of one thing it pioneered (except for New Beetle*, which probably pioneers world's first dashboard flowerpot holder)...

* I really dislike that car- engine and driven wheels on wrong end of the car, wrong engine cooling medium... The only thing, apart from body curvature, which it has in common with KdF Beetle is lack of interior space.

[diego]

Yawn!

The "Porsche stole the Tatra" argument is so tired and mundane; when I hear people go on about it I'm reminded of a teenager ranting on about "the man is trying to keep us down".

Tatra's design didn't spring fully-formed out his head alone, either. That's why I recommended Ludvigsen's book -- as any good historian should do with his subject, he puts it in the context of its times, and that context includes technological trends. In his book he shows all of the other rear engine packaging approaches that were in vogue during the period, and how they helped lead to the VW.

[Enzo]

Originally posted by Wolf
Enzo- but what was exactly, engineering-wise, so avant garde about Beetle? I cannot think of one thing it pioneered (except for New Beetle*, which probably pioneers world's first dashboard flowerpot holder)...

* I really dislike that car- engine and driven wheels on wrong end of the car, wrong engine cooling medium... The only thing, apart from body curvature, which it has in common with KdF Beetle is lack of interior space.

I don't know how engineering-wise anant garde the Beetle was. If you want an answer to that, you have to ask someone at Porsche firm, or see the first Porsche, the 356 which was based on the Beetle...;)

[Enzo]

Originally posted by diego
Yawn!

The "Porsche stole the Tatra" argument is so tired and mundane; when I hear people go on about it I'm reminded of a teenager ranting on about "the man is trying to keep us down".

History is history, unchangeable and can be written only once, my friend...
History is a fact, rock as solid and whether you judge it as tired or mundane, you can't change it... As you can't change the fact that Porsche layout, for so many years up to today, has its roots to the engineering concept of Ledwinka. The same way you can't change other facts. Like the fact that ALL cars after the Lancia Lambda, copied it and now have a no seperate chassis. It may seems mundane and "banal" to go back to 1923 to prove something, but history is being started at where it is really started, not at where we want to start it ourselves, or at the where history is not even more "banal"...;)

[Don Capps]

Everyone seems to forget about the MB Typ 130 (W.23/M.23) when rear-engined cars of this period are discussed:

[D-Type]

And was the Renault 750 inspired by the VW/Tatra T97/ Mercedes MB130, or was it conceived independently?

Given that Porsche and Ledwinka were well acquainted (even friends?) how much cross-fertilization of ideas in either direction could have taken place?


Edit - typos corrected

[Wolf]

Originally posted by D-Type
Given thet Porsche and Ledwinka were well acquainted (even friends?) how much cross-fertilization of ideas in eithrer direction could have taken place?

The Tatra site previously linked to has this to say:

For several years during the 1930s, since the construction of the 1933 Tatra V570 prototype, Hans Ledwinka and Ferdinand Porsche regulary met to discuss their automotive work and designs (see picture from 25 August 1935 at Masaryk race- from left to right: Porsche, the famous 1930s Czech Bugatti racing driver Elisabeth Junek & Ledwinka).

[diego]

Originally posted by Enzo


History is history, unchangeable and can be written only once, my friend...
History is a fact, rock as solid and whether you judge it as tired or mundane, you can't change it... As you can't change the fact that Porsche layout, for so many years up to today, has its roots to the engineering concept of Ledwinka. The same way you can't change other facts. Like the fact that ALL cars after the Lancia Lambda, copied it and now have a no seperate chassis. It may seems mundane and "banal" to go back to 1923 to prove something, but history is being started at where it is really started, not at where we want to start it ourselves, or at the where history is not even more "banal"...;)

Yes, yes, yes... spare me your sermon. I believe you need to better distinguish between a design principle and a specific design. To be sure, not "all cars after the Lancia Lambda copied it", as you've written. Yes, many cars use the design principle of unitized construction in their design, but they are not, as you would put it, "cut and paste" versions of the Lancia. Just as the Beetle was not a cut and paste version of the Tatra, but rather a car built to a similar philosophy of design. Designs done within a specific technological context, using similar constraints and inputs, often come out looking very similar.

I leave this thread with two thoughts:

1) Read Ludvigsen's book -- its a helluva a lot more informed than the "Tatra" website you keep referring to
2) In the future, please avoid starting threads based on a personal statementl/belief posing as a question. I, like many other members of TNF, have little time or interest debating dubious historical "facts" with agenda-driven fanatics

[Yorgos]

Why nobody mentioned yet "Tatra: The Legacy of Hans Ledvinka"?

Cheers
Yorgos

[Enzo]

Originally posted by Don Capps
Everyone seems to forget about the MB Typ 130 (W.23/M.23) when rear-engined cars of this period are discussed:

There are 2 possibilities here:

1) Porsche copied Mercedes,
2) Porsche copied Ledwinka,
3) Ledwinka copied Mercedes, then Porsche copied Ledwinka.

Which of these is more possible, in you opinion?

[Enzo]

Originally posted by diego
I leave this thread with two thoughts:

1) Read Ludvigsen's book -- its a helluva a lot more informed than the "Tatra" website you keep referring to
2) In the future, please avoid starting threads based on a personal statementl/belief posing as a question. I, like many other members of TNF, have little time or interest debating dubious historical "facts" with agenda-driven fanatics

1) Do you beleive that the web site that i quoted is not valid? Could you prove it?
2) Read again answer #1.

[Holger Merten]

MB H-modells, the Tatra and the Volkswagen Beetle?

Don't forget the persons behind these cars. Let me say it like that. The rear-engined car is an idea of Hans Ledwinka (Tatra) and Bela Bareny (later responsible for the MB safety ideas). And Porsche was in contact with those guys in the late 20s and arround 1930. Working for MB he gave the idea to develop the rear engined MB modells. Which were less or more unsuccessful while Porsche wasn't working for MB any more.

On the other hand was Tatra - a small company. Not enough power, to brake the wall for the idea of a rear engined car.

But in the 30s Porsche took his chance, when Hitler gave him the chance to develop a Volkswagen for nazi propaganda reasons.

That's the story. Documentated by the Volkswagen archiv. You can read this in the doctoral thesis of the chief of the Volkswagen Museum, Dr. Bernd Wiersch.

[diego]

Originally posted by Enzo


1) Do you beleive that the web site that i quoted is not valid? Could you prove it?
2) Read again answer #1.

My friend, I never stated or implied that the website is "not valid". I only recommended that you read Ludvigsen's book, as I believe it to be the best account of all of the influences acting on the Porsche team as they banged out the design of the Beetle. Find a copy and read it some Sunday afternoon -- it's a fabulous read.

And, to be clear, my reservations regarding your thesis statement above had only to do with your interpretation of the history, not of the historical facts. Believe me, as a Tatra afficionado, I fully recognize the genius of Ledwinka. I also recognize the fact that compensatory patent payments were made by VW after the war. However, to characterize the design of the Beetle as merely a "cut and paste" is a gross simplification of a rather complex historical situation, and does an injustice to the individuals involved. All designers borrow from their predecessors and contemporaries; it's the way things work.

As a new member of TNF, I would urge you to take a less strident approach to your posting (i.e. avoid macho histrionics such as "read again answer #1). You'll learn more, have more fun, and maybe even make some friends (and fewer enemies) in the process, too.

[dmj]

Originally posted by Enzo
The T87 was considered by German high command as the ultimate car for the new German Autobahns and was a real favourite amongst German officers.[/I]

Well... not too long. Later German military authorities banned officers from driving T87s as that car proved too lethal and there were a lot of accidents. Apparently front end used to lift at Autobahn speeds and a lot of cars were crashed that way. Now, it might be a legend and I don't know if corresponding Wermacht order was ever really published - but anyway I like the story. Car that killed bloody Nazis so much they had to ban using of it - a small part of reasons why T87 is THE dream car of mine.
But, some Beetle variants are also among my shortlist of dream cars (21/23 window Bus, 1600 TL fastback...) so, even as a Tatra fan big enough to choose their sign as avatar, I believe it's more in the picture than meets the eye. T97 was a genial, influential design. So is Beetle, influenced by Tatra. Both cars are great and significant. T97 would be my pick, because I prefer obscure things - but Beetle did so much more for not only car industry but human society of second part of 20th century, becoming one of true symbols of the era, even influencing certain movements and lifestyles in a way no car ever did (with possible expection of Model T). Considering it a carbon copy of Tatra would be both nitpicking and unjustified. Similarities do exist but Beetle is an inmeasurably more important part of car history - even the world history, it should be said so.

[Henk]

Originally posted by diego
Believe me, as a Tatra afficionado, I fully recognize the genius of Ledwinka. I also recognize the fact that compensatory patent payments were made by VW after the war. ....

Diego - It is frequently stated that Porsche used several patents of Tatra. Do you have any specific information on which patents were actually infringed by Porsche?

For some time I have been tracing patents filed by Tatra and Porsche in the 1930s. A wide variety of interesting claims. But so far I didn’t find any convincing example of a patented Tatra design that appeared in the early Beetles.

[diego]

Originally posted by Henk

Diego - It is frequently stated that Porsche used several patents of Tatra. Do you have any specific information on which patents were actually infringed by Porsche?

For some time I have been tracing patents filed by Tatra and Porsche in the 1930s. A wide variety of interesting claims. But so far I didn’t find any convincing example of a patented Tatra design that appeared in the early Beetles.

Henk,

No, unfortunately I don't have any details regarding the specific patents infringed upon by the Porsche design team.

However, in his wonderful book "Battle for the Beetle", Karl Ludvigsen states that "Ledwinka would have priority over Porsche in several areas, including engine position, the layout of the gearbox, and the ducted-fan cooling... Before a tiral verdict was reached the parties settled out of court." (pp. 225-226). Mr. Ludvigsen's source for this information is a work that I don't have called "Tatra -- The Legacy of Hans Ledwinka", by Ivan Margolius & John Henry, Harrow: 1990.

Good luck! Let us know what you find out.

Regards,

Diego

[Pils1989]

Is there some technical literature or documents, in English or French. available about the racing Tatras?
I have this 603 I'm going to refurbish soon...;)

[tam999]

Here's a thoroughly apocryphal story that I heard once regarding the common origins of VW and Tatra, and later Porsche. Could someone tell me if there's any truth to this?

According to this tale: Dr. Porsche and Dr. Tatra were both trained by a Professor Rumpler. Professor Rumpler had decreed, as high ranking German academics were capable of decreeing, that for ergonomic reasons the optimal automotive design used a rear-mounted air-cooled engine. Hence the use by both Dr. Porsche and Dr. Tatra of rear-mounted air-cooled engines in their automotive designs.

Is this hokum?

Tam McPartland

[dbw]

interesting thread...how about the car made by the waltham co in the states..the orient buckboard was an inexpensive car with a twin cylinder air-cooled mounted behind the rear axle with the crankshaft 90 degrees to the axle...1902 to 1904.[plus the chassis doubled as the suspension!]

i am also surprised to learn that all "modern" cars have monocoque body/chassis. my old ferrari 308 had a separate large diameter tube chassis..not unlike an auto union type d, it seems to work ok.

[Terry Walker]

The Rumpler car, an air-cooled rear-engined "streamliner" was produced after W W 1.

[Vitesse2]

I don't think Rumpler was the only proponent of that theory. Some time ago I had the opportunity to browse through a more-or-less complete set of a German magazine called Motor-Kritik, which ran for most of the inter-war period. There was a fascination in Germany for streamlining, exemplified in cars like the Rumpler and Benz RH, which acquired their slippery shape by the simple expedient of putting the engine in the back and eliminating the solid vertical lump that was a front-mounted radiator. Designs for cars very like the T97, Typ 130 and the VW were being sketched and published there in the mid-20s.

[r.atlos]

Originally posted by tam999 According to this tale: Dr. Porsche and Dr. Tatra were both trained by a Professor Rumpler. Professor Rumpler had decreed, as high ranking German academics were capable of decreeing, that for ergonomic reasons the optimal automotive design used a rear-mounted air-cooled engine. Hence the use by both Dr. Porsche and Dr. Tatra of rear-mounted air-cooled engines in their automotive designs.

Dr. Tatra ??? C'mon, Tam - their constructor and Technical Director during their key years was called Hans Ledwinka (1878 - 1967).

There has never been somebody like a Mr. (oder even Dr.) Tatra. The company had been formed as "Nesseldorfer Wagenbau Fabriks Gesellschaft" in 1891 (please note: "Fabriks" is not a spelling mistake, it was like that in their first company logo) - obviously at a time when the region was still part of the Austrian-Hungarian Empire. [I save you an excursion into its years prior to that when they were building carriages and railways waggons.] After WW1 the company became Koprivnice & Nesseldorfer and "Tatra" was launched as their brand.

[Allan Lupton]

Originally posted by r.atlos
Dr. Tatra ??? C'mon, Tam - their constructor and Technical Director during their key years was called Hans Ledwinka (1878 - 1967).

There has never been somebody like a Mr. (oder even Dr.) Tatra. The company had been formed as "Nesseldorfer Wagenbau Fabriks Gesellschaft" in 1891 (please note: "Fabriks" is not a spelling mistake, it was like that in their first company logo) - obviously at a time when the region was still part of the Austrian-Hungarian Empire. [I save you an excursion into its years prior to that when they were building carriages and railways waggons.] After WW1 the company became Koprivnice & Nesseldorfer and "Tatra" was launched as their brand.

. . . which was named after their nearby mountain range.

Dr. Tatra must join the ranks of the well-known non-people known to the popular press, cf. M. Clement-Talbot.

The cars designed by Edmund Rumpler were not air-cooled, and the Rumpler designed Benz GP and sports cars had a big external radiator above the engine. Rumpler's Tropfenwagen had rear radiators too, but concealed.

Ferdinand Porsche designed a pushrod flat-four aircooled aeroplane engine in about 1912, so you could say that the KdF engine has its origins there.