18 replies to this topic

[Hans Etzrodt]

Because the former thread http://forums.atlasf...&threadid=15348 rests now in the archives, I started a new one, same subject. It is about this little list, which just received a minor update thanks to Gerrit Stevens. Gerrit did not like to see tricycles as winners in a table like this but rather 4-wheel cars. Well, he is right and to get rid of the cycles is not a bad idea. So, I have now eliminated the 14 tricycle and quadricycle race winners originally shown between 1898 and 1900 and replaced them with the fastest 4-wheeled CARS. I had the tricycles originally included to accommodate Ettore Bugatti’s own racing accomplishments. So, after removing the handicap events some time ago, this will further purify the list. Here the 14 races:

1898
Berlin-Potsdam-Berlin
Torino-Asti-Alessandria-Torino

1899
Verona - Brescia - Mantova – Verona
Torino - Pinerolo - Avigliana – Torino
Reggio - Brescello - Parma – Reggio
Bologna-Poggio-Renatico-Malalbergo-Bologna
Padova-Vicenza-Thiene-Bassano-Treviso-Padova
Piacenza - Cremona - Borgo – Piacenza
Brescia-Cremona-Mantova-Verona-Brescia

1900
Torino-Pinerolo-Saluzzo-Cuneo-Torino
Torino-Asti
Bologna-Corticella-Pog.R.-Malalbergo-Bologna
Berlin-Aachen
Coppa Brescia in September

To improve accuracy, I also made very minor changes in the 'Events', the 'Acknowledgements and Updates', the 'Grandes Épreuves' and the 'European Championship' sections.

[gerrit stevens]

Thanks Hans,

I noticed you did not change Paul Jamin's wins. Obviously you consider his his Bollée tricar as a real car. I can live with that, if that looks like a real car. I have not seen pictures of that vehicle but if you say so I believe that.


BTW what are the criteria you are using for a Grand Prix event.

For example I miss the Tourist Trophy 1908 also known as the Four-Inch Race. According to Higham it was a Formula Libre race like those in 1914 and 1922. Why is only 1922 included.

Same for Targa Florio Formula Libre 1912-13-14. You did however include 1919/1927 Formula Libre. And why is the 1906 event (for touring cars) included. I don't mind including touring cars but then I think the Tourist Trophy races 1905/07 and the Coupe de Liedekerke 1905/07 could also be included.

How do you look at the American races. Cohin mentions a.o. The Briarcliff Trophy 1908.
You also include the Cuban Race 1906. There was also one in 1905.
An for the rest I am thinking of;
Long Island Road race 1900 (Springfield-Babylon-Springfield) 50 miles
The longer Daytona Beach races 1904/08.
The minor events in Savannah.

And then 1939 when a lot of events (especially Italian) changed into voiturette events, because their makes could not cope with the Germans.
Actually in 1952/53 a same kind of development ( shortage of F1 cars) arose when Formula II became the formula to be run for the WDC.
Wouldn't it be logic to include those 1939/40 voiturette events as Grands Prix.


Gerrit Stevens

[Vitesse2]

Gerrit: I believe Hans omits the Daytona Beach events because it was a beach circuit. IIRC both beach and ice races are excluded, since the tracks are, by their very nature, impermanent.

As to 1939: of the events run as Voiturette races in 1939, only the Tripoli GP, the Coppa Acerbo and the Coppa Ciano had been run as GP Formula events in 1938 and in all three cases there had been 1500cc classes or races at those meetings in 1938. These attracted essentially the same fields in 1939 - the Voiturette "circus" of Alfa Romeo plus a horde of Maseratis. Only Tripoli provided variety in 1939, with Mercedes Benz participating: so the question then becomes "Where do you draw the line?" since there were also the two South African races (never held to GP Formula), the Targa Florio (Voiturettes since 1937), the Naples race (GP 1934, 1937, Voiturette 1938), the Nuffield Trophy (never held to GP Formula), Picardy GP (Voiturettes only since 1936 and as far back as 1931), Coupe de la Commission (new), Carnaro (new), Albi GP (Voiturettes only since 1935 and as far back as 1933) and the Prix de Berne (Voiturettes throughout). I can't really see a case for elevating any of these except perhaps Tripoli to GP status and it seems illogical to make an exception for that one alone.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by gerrit stevens
... you did not change Paul Jamin's wins. Obviously you consider his his Bollée tricar as a real car. I can live with that, if that looks like a real car. I have not seen pictures of that vehicle but if you say so I believe that.
BTW what are the criteria you are using for a Grand Prix event.
For example ...

Gerrit - thats a lot of stuff you're shooting in my direction.

Gimme some time to figure out how I best reply, diplomatically, without loosing face.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by gerrit stevens
I noticed you did not change Paul Jamin's wins. Obviously you consider his his Bollée tricar as a real car. I can live with that, if that looks like a real car. I have not seen pictures of that vehicle but if you say so I believe that.

At the 1897 Paris-Dieppe, Paul Jamin’s 3 hp tricar Bollée was classified as a Voiturette, according to Gerald Rose who also kept record of the separate tricycle class, won by Bertrand on 1.75 hp DeDion. But since Jamin's entry was basically a cycle, according to the entry at the Paris-Trouville event, I have now removed Jamin and instead listed as winner Albert de Dion (De Dion steamer).
The same applied to the 1897 Paris-Trouville, Paul Jamin’s 3 hp tricar Bollée was classified as a cycle, so Gilles Hourgières (Panhard 6 hp) is now shown as winner on the list.

Originally posted by gerrit stevens
BTW what are the criteria you are using for a Grand Prix event.

NOT SHOWN IN THE LIST ARE:
tricycle-, quadricycle- & motorcycle overall winners in a mixed event
handicap races
touring car races
sports car races
voiturette formula races
cycle car races
winter/ice races
sprints
speed trials
mountain- or hill climbs

Originally posted by gerrit stevens
For example I miss the Tourist Trophy 1908 also known as the Four-Inch Race. According to Higham it was a Formula Libre race like those in 1914 and 1922. Why is only 1922 included.

In the 1908 TT cars that looked like racing cars were to resemble touring cars, they carried wind-drag boards mounted behind the front seats to simulate touring carriage work; this according to Bill Boddy.
However, the 1914 TT is now included as a formula Libre event, showing K. Lee Guinness (Sunbeam) as winner.

Originally posted by gerrit stevens
Same for Targa Florio Formula Libre 1912-13-14. You did however include 1919/1927 Formula Libre. And why is the 1906 event (for touring cars) included. I don't mind including touring cars but then I think the Tourist Trophy races 1905/07 and the Coupe de Liedekerke 1905/07 could also be included.

The 1906 Targa Florio event, staged for touring cars, has now been removed to further purify the list. (As an exception it was shown here right from the beginning solely for the record)
The 1912, 13, 14 Targa races were held for touring cars.
The TT and Coupe de Liederkerke 1905/1907 events were staged for fast tourers as best.

Originally posted by gerrit stevens
How do you look at the American races. Cohin mentions a.o. The Briarcliff Trophy 1908.

Here the more important 1908 US events:
1908, Mar 19, Savannah, 342 mi
1908, Apr 24, Briarcliff, 240 mi
1908, Sep 7, Lowell, 254 mi
1908, Sep 11, Brighton Beach, 24-hrs
1908, Sep 26, Milwaukee, 24-hrs
1908, Oct 1, Brighton Beach, 24-hrs
1908, Oct 10, Long Island, 234 mi
1908, Oct 10, Long Island, 211 mi
1908, Oct 10, Long Island, 187 mi
1908, Oct 10, Long Island, 140 mi
1908, Oct 10, Long Island, 93 mi
1908, Oct 10, Fairmont Park, 195 mi
1908, Oct 24, Vanderbilt Cup Race 258 mi
1908, Nov 25, Savannah Light Car Race 196 mi
1908, Nov 26, Savannah American Grand Prize 402 mi.
The question is which events you want to pick or which ones do you want to drop. Do you want to pick all races on road courses? Do you want to drop all races held on dirt track ovals? I just picked the two most important events of the lot.

Originally posted by gerrit stevens
You also include the Cuban Race 1906. There was also one in 1905.

Yes, good idea to include also the 1905 Cuban Race on February 15, with Carricaburu (Mercedes 90 hp) the winner. I did so. Thank you, Gerrit.

Originally posted by gerrit stevens
An for the rest I am thinking of;
Long Island Road race 1900 (Springfield-Babylon-Springfield) 50 miles

Which and what cars took part? Do you have data about this event? Also, do you really want to include a 50-mile race?

Originally posted by gerrit stevens
The longer Daytona Beach races 1904/08.

AFAIK, these were the events you are talking about. They were speed trials. Here they are:
1903 Daytona Beach FL 1-mi
1904 Ormond-Daytona Beach FL 1-mi, 5-mi, 1-mi
1905 Ormond-Daytona Beach FL 1-mi
1906 Ormond-Daytona Beach FL 1-mi, 5-mi
1910 Daytona-Ormond Beach FL 1-mi, 5-mi,
1911 Daytona Beach FL 1-mi

Originally posted by gerrit stevens
The minor events in Savannah.

Between 1908 and 1911 there were also races staged for light cars (161-231 cu inches) but of course only the Grand Prize Races and the Vanderbilt Cup Race were of interest. Remember, we are searching for the ultimate racing class always. The light cars had their own races and were comparable possibly to the voiturettes in Europe.

Originally posted by gerrit stevens
And then 1939 when a lot of events (especially Italian) changed into voiturette events, because their makes could not cope with the Germans.
Actually in 1952/53 a same kind of development ( shortage of F1 cars) arose when Formula II became the formula to be run for the WDC.
Wouldn't it be logic to include those 1939/40 voiturette events as Grands Prix.

In 1939 there were races for Voiturettes, like Tripoli in 1939 and then we saw races held to the GP Formula like the Bucharest GP. So, it was all very clear to everybody then. Only at the Swiss GP a final race was staged, mixing the two. Why change history?

[gerrit stevens]

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt


NOT SHOWN IN THE LIST ARE:
voiturette formula races

According to Gearld Rose (p. 109) the 1900 Paris-Rouen-Paris race (won by Théry) was a voiturette race.

The 1906 Targa Florio event, staged for touring cars, has now been removed to further purify the list. (As an exception it was shown here right from the beginning solely for the record)
The 1912, 13, 14 Targa races were held for touring cars.

Peter Higham claims 1912/14 races as Formula Libre.

Here the more important 1908 US events:
1908, Mar 19, Savannah, 342 mi
1908, Apr 24, Briarcliff, 240 mi
1908, Sep 7, Lowell, 254 mi
1908, Sep 11, Brighton Beach, 24-hrs
1908, Sep 26, Milwaukee, 24-hrs
1908, Oct 1, Brighton Beach, 24-hrs
1908, Oct 10, Long Island, 234 mi
1908, Oct 10, Long Island, 211 mi
1908, Oct 10, Long Island, 187 mi
1908, Oct 10, Long Island, 140 mi
1908, Oct 10, Long Island, 93 mi
1908, Oct 10, Fairmont Park, 195 mi
1908, Oct 24, Vanderbilt Cup Race 258 mi
1908, Nov 25, Savannah Light Car Race 196 mi
1908, Nov 26, Savannah American Grand Prize 402 mi.
The question is which events you want to pick or which ones do you want to drop. Do you want to pick all races on road courses? Do you want to drop all races held on dirt track ovals? I just picked the two most important events of the lot.

As Edmond Cohin includes this race I would say pick also the Briarcliff Trophy race.

Which and what cars took part? Do you have data about this event? Also, do you really want to include a 50-mile race?

I do not want to include all 50 miles races although there are some of less distance in your list.
But this is the in my files since 1896 the first 'long' and the last before the Daytona races.
Here is the result.
Long Island Road Race

18 April 1900 – Springfield-Babylon-Springfield: 80,465 km (50 miles)/24,29 mph



[FONT=courier new]

FP  # Driver					 Car					 Time/Laps - reason out	 

 1  1  Anthony L. Riker		  Riker Electric			2:03.30

 2	 S.T. Davis				Locomobile Steamer 4.5	2:18.27

 3  9  Alexander Fischer		 Gasmobile 5			   2:30.01

 4  5  David W. Bishop		   Winton 6				  2:38.08

 5  4  Albert C. Bostwick		Winton 6				  2:46.40

 6	 George F. Chamberlin	  Winton 6				  2:48.42

 7	 C.J. Field				de Dion Bouton			3:12.54

Did not finish

 8	 W.H. Hall				 Locomobile Steamer 5		 42 miles

 9	 Dave Morris			   Steamer 5					38 miles[/FONT] 

Notes:

 1. Source: AAA records, NY Times

 2. Promoter: Automobile Club of America.

AFAIK, these were the events you are talking about. They were speed trials. Here they are:
1903 Daytona Beach FL 1-mi
1904 Ormond-Daytona Beach FL 1-mi, 5-mi, 1-mi
1905 Ormond-Daytona Beach FL 1-mi
1906 Ormond-Daytona Beach FL 1-mi, 5-mi
1910 Daytona-Ormond Beach FL 1-mi, 5-mi,
1911 Daytona Beach FL 1-mi

There was a 50 miler in 1904 and 100 milers in 1905, 06 and 1907. In 1908 there were even 250 mile races. In due time I may give you the results. Just pick the most important one of every year if you want to.



Gerrit Stevens


BTW in my own list I will carry various kind of races (which you exclude) based on different sorts of listings. I hope you won't mind.

[GIGLEUX]

I perfectly understand Hans first position about Léon Bollée vehicules.
Origins: at first you have cycle from latin cyclus which find its origins in ancient greek kuklos meaning circle. In the 19 th century with development of transport, in the cycle family you find bi-cycle (two circle, refering to the wheels): two wheels, and tri-cycle three wheels. Then came the bicycle moved by an engine: the motocycle always from latin motor: which put on movment motor itself being issued from movere, to move. Then a second familly appeared, the automobile which means moving by itself and not thanks to human strength; the automobile were also called voiture which is a very old french word (from latin vectura, transport) voiture becoming the mean of transport. The two families developed separately: on one side the cycle with bicyclette, motocyclette (motor-bicyclette, motor bike, bike) and tricycle which were in fact without or with an engine.
Voiturette: petite voiture (little car). It seems the word was if not created but popularized by L.Bollée with his three wheeled car he called "voiturette".
When looking at a tricycle and a Bollée voiturette you realize they were not at all playing in the same garden: the tricycle is really a motorbike with three wheels, a frame, pedals+engine, and a saddle. The L.Bollée for me is in the "voiture" family: a steering wheel, two seats and a stronger appearance.
Later, for "political" reasons cars with three wheels raced in the motorbike family but do you consider the Morgans, Sandfords, or even the Bonds as cars or tricycles. At the end of the 19 th century you have not such a classification but were considered Voitures, Tricycle and motorbikes. If I understand well it is in the 1897 Paris-Dieppe that a first logical attempt was made to have a classification with two places cars, four places cars, six places cars, voiturettes and tricycles but it was the only race where it applied as being too rudimentary!

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt

However, the 1914 TT is now included as a formula Libre event, showing K. Lee Guinness (Sunbeam) as winner.

Was the 1914 TT Formula Libre? I thought there was a capacity limit of 3310cc.

[Don Capps]

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
Gerrit did not like to see tricycles as winners in a table like this but rather 4-wheel cars. Well, he is right and to get rid of the cycles is not a bad idea.

I didn't say anything at first, but I now wonder exactly what was the problem with the tricycles? Instead of presenting what were complete results, now there are "revised" or "altered" results. In a few years someone will ask, "Where are the tricycles? Why aren't they included in the results?"

:

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by gerrit stevens
According to Gearld Rose (p. 109) the 1900 Paris-Rouen-Paris race (won by Théry) was a voiturette race.

That is correct and the reason why I don’t show this event on the list.

Originally posted by gerrit stevens
Peter Higham claims 1912/14 races as Formula Libre.

The TF events of 1912, 13 & 14 were called Giro di Sicilia, because the race was a 975 km ordeal around the island itself instead the Madonie Circuit. In 1912, Cyril Snipe, an English lad, drove a SCAT Libre touring car with fenders, lights, three spares and all around the isle, to complete the distance in 24h37m9.8s. No mean feat this, considering it was all done in one go, except perhaps of two hours forced sleep, due to mental collapse by the brave driver. These were no ordinary country roads through British high land but Sizilian roads of worst repute. Vincenzo Florio learned from this first Tour and the following two years the Giro di Sicilia was held over two days, with the cars compounded during the night, so drivers and mechanics could have a nap. Grand Prix race this? Not in my book.

Originally posted by gerrit stevens
As Edmond Cohin includes this race I would say pick also the Briarcliff Trophy race.

I don’t feel inclined to add a race just because it shows up in Cohins ‘Bible’ or Paul Sheldon’s ‘Black Books’ for that matter. Of course, I am interested to see what races are listed in Sheldon’s or Cohin’s books or in Roland King-Farlow’s and Gregor Grant’s lists or what’s shown by Gerald Rose or Charles Jarrott in their books. I see no point in adding the 1908 Briarcliff Trophy race as you suggested above since it was not an important event, which was standing out from the others. Why Ed Cohin decided to show this race in his book and none of the other races, I do not know. Especially with the American races in Cohin’s book, I cannot find a consistency. From 1904 on he shows the Vanderbilt Cup Races. From 1908 on he also shows the American Grand Prize races and also for the first time one of several others, namely the Briarcliff Trophy race, but does not mention the other events. In 1909, he decides to show 11 American races besides the two important ones (Vanderbilt and Grand Prize). Why just 11 races, there were more. In 1910 he again shows 11 races of different classes but there were more races than that. Either way, I don’t open Cohin’s book to find guidance on the American scene.

Originally posted by gerrit stevens
I do not want to include all 50 miles races although there are some of less distance in your list.
But this is the in my files since 1896 the first 'long' and the last before the Daytona races.
Here is the result.
Long Island Road Race
18 April 1900 – Springfield-Babylon-Springfield: 80,465 km (50 miles)/24,29 mph
FP # Driver Car Time/Laps - reason out
1 1 Anthony L. Riker Riker Electric 2:03.30
2 S.T. Davis Locomobile Steamer 4.5 2:18.27
3 9 Alexander Fischer Gasmobile 5 2:30.01
4 5 David W. Bishop Winton 6 2:38.08
5 4 Albert C. Bostwick Winton 6 2:46.40
6 George F. Chamberlin Winton 6 2:48.42
7 C.J. Field de Dion Bouton 3:12.54
Did not finish
8 W.H. Hall Locomobile Steamer 5 42 miles
9 Dave Morris Steamer 5 38 miles
Notes:
1. Source: AAA records, NY Times
2. Promoter: Automobile Club of America.

That’s very interesting information about an early road race, Gerrit. I never looked too deeply into the American racing szene. Therefore I feel tempted to add this early race. I have seen the soures below, thank you, but I would like to know where this information comes from, a book, magazine, web page or what? Who put it together?

Originally posted by gerrit stevens
There was a 50 miler in 1904 and 100 milers in 1905, 06 and 1907. In 1908 there were even 250 mile races. In due time I may give you the results. Just pick the most important one of every year if you want to.

I definitely want to hear more about your source for those Daytona races. As I mentioned before, I never dwelled too deeply into the American races. Elgin was my closest encounter and that fell asleep. Please give me your source, book, magazine or web page, so I can read up on it. I truly hate to copy results unless they come from a primary source. Then I don't see a problem, at least not immediately.

Originally posted by Roger Clark
Was the 1914 TT Formula Libre? I thought there was a capacity limit of 3310cc.

You are of course right, Roger. The 1914 TT was not held to the Libre or 1914 GP formula. They had their own regulations to which the cars had to comply. I would have to look up the details but I don’t need to have that information for my list, so I can skip it for now. But it would be interesting to know anyway.

Originally posted by Don Capps
I didn't say anything at first, but I now wonder exactly what was the problem with the tricycles? Instead of presenting what were complete results, now there are "revised" or "altered" results. In a few years someone will ask, "Where are the tricycles? Why aren't they included in the results?"

Don, the list was never a complete one from the beginning, although I had thought that it was. But many of the people here at TNF have contributed to make the list what it is today compared to February three years ago when Leif added the list to his home page. It is just a little list about the Grand Prix winners and therefore it would be incorrect to show a very light tricycle or even lighter motorcycle as winner instead of the ‘grand prix’ cars we are looking for. At some events the two-seated heavy car race was amalgamated with the 'Voitures Légères' - light cars -, voiturettes and four-seated cars races. Voiturettes, light cars and four-seated cars had on few occasions defeated the heavy or two-seated cars, equals to the GP cars. This happened at the 1902 Paris-Vienna race and the 1910 Targa Florio. The outright winner is shown, coming from a minor category instead the first two-seated heavy car. In some races before 1901 motorcycles, tricycles and quadricycles were the overall winner, beating the bigger cars due to their better power to weight ratio. They are not shown here but instead the fastest, usually two-seated heavy car, which resembled the swiftest racing machine at the time.

[gerrit stevens]

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt


That’s very interesting information about an early road race, Gerrit. I never looked too deeply into the American racing szene. Therefore I feel tempted to add this early race. I have seen the soures below, thank you, but I would like to know where this information comes from, a book, magazine, web page or what? Who put it together?

I definitely want to hear more about your source for those Daytona races. As I mentioned before, I never dwelled too deeply into the American races. Elgin was my closest encounter and that fell asleep. Please give me your source, book, magazine or web page, so I can read up on it. I truly hate to copy results unless they come from a primary source. Then I don't see a problem, at least not immediately.

Hans, I got these results also the Daytona ones from Phil Harms a few years ago. Maybe he can give you some more details.
Does the fact that the Daytona races were beach races play a role in your opinion

Don, the list was never a complete one from the beginning, although I had thought that it was. But many of the people here at TNF have contributed to make the list what it is today compared to February three years ago when Leif added the list to his home page. It is just a little list about the Grand Prix winners and therefore it would be incorrect to show a very light tricycle or even lighter motorcycle as winner instead of the ‘grand prix’ cars we are looking for. At some events the two-seated heavy car race was amalgamated with the 'Voitures Légères' - light cars -, voiturettes and four-seated cars races. Voiturettes, light cars and four-seated cars had on few occasions defeated the heavy or two-seated cars, equals to the GP cars. This happened at the 1902 Paris-Vienna race and the 1910 Targa Florio. The outright winner is shown, coming from a minor category instead the first two-seated heavy car. In some races before 1901 motorcycles, tricycles and quadricycles were the overall winner, beating the bigger cars due to their better power to weight ratio. They are not shown here but instead the fastest, usually two-seated heavy car, which resembled the swiftest racing machine at the time.

If the Bollée tricar is more like a car than a cycle than maybe it should be considered a voiturette. In that respect I would not mind if it is included in the winners list. About quadricycles, tricycles and (motor)bicycles. They are not cars. For completeness sake they could be shown in the results without a ranking number.
Here an example

Criterium des Entraineurs

11-12 May 1898 - Paris-Bordeaux: 573.7 Km/ 37.60 kmh (23.36 mph) 

FP  # Driver					 Car				   Time/Laps - reason out	 

 1  1 René De Knyff			  Panhard			   15:15'31"2   

 2  2 Fernand Charron			Panhard			   17:43'24"

 3 11 Breuil					 Panhard			   18:20'01"8

   10 Jean Corre				 de Dion tri		   18:38'10"4   cycle

 4 19 Georges Richard			Richard			   19:47'33"6

 5  6 Balacéano				  Panhard			   19:51'33"4

   16 Marot					  de Dion tri		   19:56'08"	cycle

   17 Alexandre Caron			de Dion tri		   20:24'53"	cycle

Gerrit Stevens

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by gerrit stevens
...I got these results also the Daytona ones from Phil Harms a few years ago. Maybe he can give you some more details.
Does the fact that the Daytona races were beach races play a role in your opinion...

Gerrit - Thanks. I will ask Phil for advice on these early American races. In regards beach races, I don't have a particular problem at this time. I show on the list the La Baule Grand Prix races during the twenties and thirties where many well known grand prix drivers participated. These were regular races, no handicap events.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
…When looking at a tricycle and a Bollée voiturette you realize they were not at all playing in the same garden: the tricycle is really a motorbike with three wheels, a frame, pedals+engine, and a saddle. The L.Bollée for me is in the "voiture" family: a steering wheel, two seats and a stronger appearance.
Later, for "political" reasons cars with three wheels raced in the motorbike family but do you consider the Morgans, Sandfords, or even the Bonds as cars or tricycles. At the end of the 19 th century you have not such a classification but were considered Voitures, Tricycle and motorbikes. If I understand well it is in the 1897 Paris-Dieppe that a first logical attempt was made to have a classification with two places cars, four places cars, six places cars, voiturettes and tricycles but it was the only race where it applied as being too rudimentary!

Jean-Maurice – Thank you for your explicit clarification. I have looked at the picture submitted by Henk in another thred http://cnum.cnam.fr/...i?4KY28.46/0373 , which probably shows the Bollée you have described.

[Don Capps]

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
Don, the list was never a complete one from the beginning, although I had thought that it was. .....It is just a little list about the Grand Prix winners and therefore it would be incorrect to show a very light tricycle or even lighter motorcycle as winner instead of the ‘grand prix’ cars we are looking for.

Just thought I would say something....

[GIGLEUX]

The two rivals: art first, the De Dion Tricycle, very frail...


and here the L.Bollée voiturette, Léon Bollée at the wheel and his brother Camille in the passenger seat.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Jean-Maurice,
Thanks a lot for the excellent pictures, clearly showing the two different machines.

[Phil Harms]

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
Gerrit - Thanks. I will ask Phil for advice on these early American races. In regards beach races, I don't have a particular problem at this time. I show on the list the La Baule Grand Prix races during the twenties and thirties where many well known grand prix drivers participated. These were regular races, no handicap events.

For data on Daytona, a good book is Racing On The Rim by Dick Punnett. I believe it was self-published --- address is Tomoka Press, 115 Coquina Ave, Ormond Beach, FL 32174. Photos are great, stats limited (winners only). Covers 1903-1910. Published in 1997 so copies are probably still around. Highly recommended.

Between Motor Age, The Automobile and Horseless Age you can get a fairly complete rundown on the Daytona speed trials. The New York Times also had detailed daily coverage over the years; they usually had a correspondent on site. But beware, all of these sources do not agree. Certainly a rich field awaiting in-depth research.

For 1904 the Feb 6 issue of The Automobile had rather complete results on all races. One of the biggest headache of these early races is that it is difficult to determine who was the driver. Often they list names which are probably the owner.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Phil,

Thanks for your clear source information. Some years ago, when I inquired about the Elgin races, I utilized the services of the AACA Library and Research Center in Hershey, PA. I have not dealt with them since 1999, but I believe they keep the relevant magazines you have mentioned above and should still be able to research and make photo copies at a reasonable charge. Another route would be the National Automotive Historic Collection of the Detroit Public Library. I believe they arrange for research by mail but at considerably higher cost.

It would be interesting to find out and possibly Don might know if these magazines are also available at the Watkins Glen Library. If that is the case, can arrangements be made to hire a local staffer/researcher by mail and at what costs to make the required photo copies?

In spite of all that, I have my work cut out for this year with two major projects at hand, so I could not pick up another unsettled matter.

[quintin cloud]

Originally posted by GIGLEUX

The two rivals: art first, the De Dion Tricycle, very frail...


and here the L.Bollée voiturette, Léon Bollée at the wheel and his brother Camille in the passenger seat.

I have always wondered what the tricycles looked like, great pics Gigleux