34 replies to this topic

[Kojima_KE007]

I was just watching the 2002 FIA TGP TV programme and in an interview, John Barnard says that the first Formula One car ever to use carbon fibre was the Hill GH-1 (1975) on the plates that supported its rear wing, to his knowledge.

Was Hill GH-1 the first car to use carbon fibre in Formula One ever or was there any other examples before that?

[ian senior]

I think Brabham were experimenting with carbon fibre brakes in about 1973 or 74.

[dolomite]

Originally posted by ian senior
I think Brabham were experimenting with carbon fibre brakes in about 1973 or 74.

Not quite so early, they started looking at that in 1976.

[Doug Nye]

The Gulf-JW sports car team were toying with carbon filament stiffening in ultra-thin lightweight GRP body panels while Gordon Murray was toying with flat carbon insert panels for lightly-loaded areas within Brabham monocoque chassis where weight could be saved. In parallel Andy Smallman and the Hill team tried carbon as a rear wing mount, an application for which the material was not suitable. It fractured and Rolf Stommelen's Formula 1 Hill careered into - and over - the barrier at Montjuich Park during the 1975 Spanish GP - with fatal consequences amongst onlookers. q.v.

DCN

[Kojima_KE007]

Thanks everyone for the info.

So, it seems Hill and Brabham were the first F1 teams to experiment the use of carbon fibre in F1 in 1975 and according to Japanese Auto Sport, Brabham were the first F1 team to use the material for brakes pads as mentioned by ian senior and dolomite. The team apparantly used them from German GP (1976) on their BT45. It also says that Surtees TS19 had carbon fibre brake pads when it was launched (launch date is unknown...). Can someone confirm this?

[david_martin]

I seem to recall that Harvey Postlewaite was dabbling with monolithic carbon composites somewhere in the rear end structures on one of the earlier evolutions of the Hesketh 308 as well. That would probably put it in the late 1974 or early 1975 timeframe too.

[Kojima_KE007]

Originally posted by david_martin
I seem to recall that Harvey Postlewaite was dabbling with monolithic carbon composites somewhere in the rear end structures on one of the earlier evolutions of the Hesketh 308 as well. That would probably put it in the late 1974 or early 1975 timeframe too.

That is completely new to me.

If it is the orginal Hesketh 308, then it will be in 1974... having been desgined by Harvey Postleswaite, it wouldn't surprise me if he did experiment the material back then. Could anyone confirm this please?

[goGoGene]

Carbon Fiber brakes were used on the Concorde SST, what year was that created?

[dolomite]

Yes, Concorde was the first application of carbon brakes to a commercial airliner. The prototypes which originally flew in 1969 had steel brakes. Carbon brakes were introduced as one of the weight saving mods for the production version and initially flight tested in 1971 I believe.

[Ray Bell]

Or 'landing tested' anyway...

There was much made of the fact that the various things tried at that time in brakes were from aircraft. There were also ceramic components tried at that time (or around that time...) IIRC.

[Kojima_KE007]

So, it seems the idea of carbon fibre brakes come from Concorde, very interesting.

Did they have carbon fibre brake discs or pads, or both?

[dolomite]

Originally posted by Kojima_KE007
So, it seems the idea of carbon fibre brakes come from Concorde, very interesting.

Did they have carbon fibre brake discs or pads, or both?

I think I read somewhere that Gordon Murray was inspired to approach Dunlop about the possibility of carbon brakes for F1 after reading about the Concorde brakes in an aviation magazine.

Aircraft brakes typically consist of a stack of carbon/carbon composite discs which are compressed together by hydraulic pistons to generate the braking torque. There are no separate 'pads' as such. Here is a picture of a typical example.

[dolomite]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Or 'landing tested' anyway...

It's normal practice to refer to any testing conducted with the aircraft moving under power as 'flight testing', even when such testing takes place on terra firma.

There was much made of the fact that the various things tried at that time in brakes were from aircraft. There were also ceramic components tried at that time (or around that time...) IIRC.

I don't know about back at that time, but ceramic brake discs have recently been starting to appear on high end road cars, and are being looked at for possible future aircraft applications.

[RJH]

In the late 60's we enjoyed a somewhat tenuous relationship with CIBA GEIGY, using their various honeycombs, and building a small rig to examine jointing methods. In 1969 a large packet of black strands arrived. Described as carbon fibre it was trailed as having been used in an aero engine application. We laid up bundles of the strands in the roofs and undertrays of our GT cars (Lenham P68) in a similar usage to paper string and really thought no more about it. Except to answer questions from CIBA GEIGER and discuss methods of making a weave.

[63Corvette]

The Gulf-JW sports car team were toying with carbon filament stiffening in ultra-thin lightweight GRP body panels while Gordon Murray was toying with flat carbon insert panels for lightly-loaded areas within Brabham monocoque chassis where weight could be saved. In parallel Andy Smallman and the Hill team tried carbon as a rear wing mount, an application for which the material was not suitable. It fractured and Rolf Stommelen's Formula 1 Hill careered into - and over - the barrier at Montjuich Park during the 1975 Spanish GP - with fatal consequences amongst onlookers. q.v.

DCN

At the 1969 CanAm race at Texas World Speedway, Denny Hulme hit a marker cone at 208mph which shattered his fender. He ramarked of the broken pieces: "that stuff costs about $10,000/lb ya know." When questioned about his statement, it turned out that he was referriing to the fact that his fenders (wings?) were made of fiberglass reenforced with carbon fiber.

[JAPMagna]

Someone told me that Mo Gomm's Gomm Metal Developments manufactured most of the wings / aerofoils for racing cars when they first became fashionable and that Gomm became experts using lightweight alternatives to metal. I also believe that Graham Hill's team borrowed part of Gomm's premises in their earliest days, before they had secured Embassy backing. I think Gomm was significantly involved in manufacturing the cars (or major parts of them) too. So there could be a link here.

[mac miller]

.

 

Although not F1, I was surprised to encounter long strands of carbon fiber roving molded into a mid 60s Ford GT 40 tail/engine cover that I was repairing.

 

      mac miller in INDY

[kayemod]

At the 1969 CanAm race at Texas World Speedway, Denny Hulme hit a marker cone at 208mph which shattered his fender. He ramarked of the broken pieces: "that stuff costs about $10,000/lb ya know." When questioned about his statement, it turned out that he was referriing to the fact that his fenders (wings?) were made of fiberglass reenforced with carbon fiber.

 

Denny wasn't a fan of the stuff as most used it back then. A normal M8 or similar nose or tail section would have strips of carbon known as "tows" laid onto flat sections of the panels while still wet and in the mould, we laid it out in a sort of windowpane pattern with about 5" squares, ends and where the stuff crossed reinforced with an overlaying small patch of fibreglass. These tows came in lengths about two feet long, and they were like thick string, very fine dead straight filaments bound together with a size to stiffen them for handling purposes. It's true that the stuff was expensive, though much less than that $10,000/lb figure. I doubt if even a large body like a CanAm car would contain more than a few ounces of the stuff, later developments moulded with carbon cloth or pre-pregs would use a great deal more of course, but the cost had come right down by the time things reached that stage. What Denny didn't like was the fact that these tows weren't really an integral part of the moulding, most bodies were made with polyester resin back then not epoxy, which would have made a much stronger bond, the tows were just laid onto the inner surface, and on impact they could separate and cause injuries. One driver got speared right through his hand by a separated tow, though that can't have been Denny, he'd have come straight over hammering on the SM door to tell us about it. I never saw "The Bear" in anything but in a cheerful mood, he was one of our favourite visitors, but in his way he was every bit as tough as A J Foyt, you'd have been risking real trouble if you upset him.

[Doug Nye]

Absolutely right about Denny.  He could be at his most bearish with journalists and media people in general - and at his most comfortable, relaxed, amused and amusing with the men who built and ran the cars he drove so well. Once at Colnbrook he noticed I was sketch a new McLaren's suspension - on the M19A I think - rather than scribbling notes describing it, and he seemed to approve.  In conversation it then emerged that I'd also drawn a house extension we were then building. He really related to that - having been down the same route.  Thereafter I found him always very much more friendly and approachable than ever before. I think it's because he'd suddenly noticed some level of skill of which he approved - in stark contrast to just scribbling words on paper and tappin' a typewriter - which plainly constituted no fit job for a man...  

 

DCN

[kayemod]

That's him alright, I suspect that the phrase "not suffering fools gladly" was first used in connection with Denny.

[f1steveuk]

Having archived a few bits of Gordon's (Murray) material, I can confirm what Doug said. There were a few flat panels, the scuttle panel from footbox to the steering hoop for example on the BT48, which also used puck type Carbon brakes, a direct copy of the type as used on Concorde.

 

I used to have a Hill GH1 rear wing support (unused) and it showed how teams were struggling to get to grips wwith the "new" (to them) material. Carbon, and Kevlar, are very light and strong, but the strength tends to be in one plane, witness a carbon suspension arm that can hold the car off the track with all the aero' download, then watch it crumble when the wheel it's holding lightly taps a wall sideways. This was one of the problems on the GH1, that and a lack of alloy bobbins for tthe fixing bolts.

 

It's news to me Carbon was used before these examples, I'll have to do some research.

 

There was a use of composites in WWII, when they clad a Spitfire in resin coated calico, to save on ali', but it's not Carbon!

[63Corvette]

Kayemod (Rob?) and Doug.... I am constantly amazed by the very interesting details of information which I find dropped so casually on this Forum.

My meeting with Denny happened this race week as he stepped out unexpectedly from between two parked cars, just as I was turning in to park my 1967 427 Corvette. I got out and appologized to him, and mentioned that I thought he had just done a road test of the 1968 427 Corvette (which he did not appear to have liked). He agreed on both counts, was pleasant, and when asked about car pictures, suggested that I ask each team separately. Teddy Mayer said that since it was the end of the season, I was welcome to photograph anything, which earlier in the season would have not been tolerated. However, when photographing the high wing M8 (B? D?), I clumsily walked throught he "string" with which the team were aligning the car, and was promptly banished from their pits. I took off work, was there at TWS for 5 days, and met all of the drivers, crews and their wives/girlfriends. Bruce won when Denny burned a piston. Mario blew twelve (12) Boss 429er (494CID) Ford engines and won pole. Cris Amon blew up the 7 liter Ferrari engine right in front of me as I was filming from the top of the catch fence above the front straight. And Jack Brabham came 2nd with his original Boss 429er engine. I stil have the film (about 8 rolls of super 8 film) of the practice and race. Grand memories from long, long ago.

[Doug Nye]

Wonderful.  It was a great period of racing - and of human endeavour - and individually each of us have certainly been very lucky to see our various bits of it... I just hope that not too many who were simply born too late get bored to tears by this stuff.

 

DCN

[Ray Bell]

A great hope, Doug...

But many of the 'born too late' people simply won't believe that what we did and saw was ever possible.

[TIPO61]

What about Frank Nichols work?

[Doug Nye]

Ummm - what about it?

 

DCN

[TIPO61]

Seems to me I remember that he was responsible for the carbon-fibre tub of the MP-4...I believe.

Seems like I recall a Utah, USA part to his story.

Perhaps I'm wrong...

or worse.

[PeterElleray]

You're thinking of Steve Nichols, no relation...

[f1steveuk]

I don't know who actually put pencil to paper for the tub of/bodywork the MP4, which unlike the ATS D6 (the first car to do away with seperate tub and bodywork and have a one piece monocoque), simply replaced the ali/alloy tub, with a carbon one. I do recall it was built in the 'States by Hercules Industries

[sabrejet]

I think Brabham were experimenting with carbon fibre brakes in about 1973 or 74.

 

Carbon fibre brakes? Surely a mistake?

 

I'm not being pedantic, just that I assumed carbon brakes had always been solid carbon.

[kayemod]

Carbon fibre brakes? Surely a mistake?

 

I'm not being pedantic, just that I assumed carbon brakes had always been solid carbon.

 

Carbon fibre reinforced carbon, also referred to as Carbon-Carbon, usually abbreviated to C/C or Reinforced Carbon/Carbon RCC, or even Carbon-Fibre-Reinforced Carbon, that’s CFRC, a composite material consisting of carbon fibre reinforcement in a matrix of graphite. It was originally developed for the nose cones of ICBM missiles, and was used for the nose cone and wing leading edges of the Space Shuttle orbital space craft. It has been used in the brake systems of F1 racing cars from around 1976(?), and as we know, carbon-carbon brake discs and pads are standard components of most racing car braking systems today, even some road cars at huge additional cost. My commercial involvement with the stuff ended many years ago, but I think I got all that right. Brake discs, or “rotors” as some apparently refer to them, have to contain reinforcement of some kind, and a good way of understanding this is GRP or Glass Reinforced Plastic car bodies from years ago, “Fibreglass” in popular parlance, though that is really just the name of one of the original manufacturers of commercial glass fibres. The glass reinforcement is white floppy stuff, no real strength on its own except to some extent in tension, but it has to be supported in some way to create a useful product like a car body. We’ve moved on a long way, but the original method was to use catalised polyester resin in a female mould. When the resin sets, the glass fibres are supported so that they are no longer floppy, and you end up with a useful item, remarkable strong and rigid for its weight, and carbon brake disks follow the same basic principles. It’s far from simple of course and there’s a lot of heat, pressure and exotic chemicals involved in the process, which explains the phenomenal costs, It’s a very complicated manufacturing process, but there’s an awful lot more to it than just pouring some black stuff into a mould.

 

Now you’re probably wishing you hadn’t asked the question...

[sabrejet]

Carbon fibre reinforced carbon, also referred to as Carbon-Carbon, usually abbreviated to C/C or Reinforced Carbon/Carbon RCC, or even Carbon-Fibre-Reinforced Carbon, that’s CFRC, a composite material consisting of carbon fibre reinforcement in a matrix of graphite. It was originally developed for the nose cones of ICBM missiles, and was used for the nose cone and wing leading edges of the Space Shuttle orbital space craft. It has been used in the brake systems of F1 racing cars from around 1976(?), and as we know, carbon-carbon brake discs and pads are standard components of most racing car braking systems today, even some road cars at huge additional cost. My commercial involvement with the stuff ended many years ago, but I think I got all that right. Brake discs, or “rotors” as some apparently refer to them, have to contain reinforcement of some kind, and a good way of understanding this is GRP or Glass Reinforced Plastic car bodies from years ago, “Fibreglass” in popular parlance, though that is really just the name of one of the original manufacturers of commercial glass fibres. The glass reinforcement is white floppy stuff, no real strength on its own except to some extent in tension, but it has to be supported in some way to create a useful product like a car body. We’ve moved on a long way, but the original method was to use catalised polyester resin in a female mould. When the resin sets, the glass fibres are supported so that they are no longer floppy, and you end up with a useful item, remarkable strong and rigid for its weight, and carbon brake disks follow the same basic principles. It’s far from simple of course and there’s a lot of heat, pressure and exotic chemicals involved in the process, which explains the phenomenal costs, It’s a very complicated manufacturing process, but there’s an awful lot more to it than just pouring some black stuff into a mould.

 

Now you’re probably wishing you hadn’t asked the question...

 

No - glad I did: many thanks for the explanation. Hopefully this will put an end to folks talking about carbon fibre brakes!

 

Mind you I've been hoping for years that less well-informed observers would stop saying "aerodynamic" to describe something aerodynamically efficient. I'm still waiting for that to happen and it seems to have permeated into mainstream motorsport publishing.

Edited by sabrejet, 23 August 2015 - 10:34.

[TIPO61]

You're thinking of Steve Nichols, no relation...

Face Palm!

Edited by TIPO61, 23 August 2015 - 23:11.

[cedricselzer]

In 1964 Peter Jackson of Specialised Mouldings supplied Team Lotus with body panels that were reinforced with carbon fibre strands.

[polarboy]

Carbon disc,s and pads are "grown" its not like any other pare on the car,all the other parts are a pre preg where there is resin is combined with the material

discs stars with strands of carbon fabric which has a very high temperature flame played on it while certain gasses are applied along with the flame and as they burn they slowly deposit pure carbon onto the carbon strands. this takes weeks/months

by altering the gases or the amounts you can slightly alter the performance of the disc

The very first discs in f1 were actually "centres" and scrap that were cut out of the centre of an aircraft disc