40 replies to this topic

[27neil]

Could somebody possibly post a couple of pictures to clearly show the difference between these two designs, i am new to the technicalities of F1 and cant visualize the main differences.

Many thanks in advance.

[A3]

Look where the lower wishbone is connected to the chassis:

Single keel, Ferrari F2003GA:
http://f1.racing-liv...i/diapo_136.jpg

Twin keel, Sauber C22 (1 keel visible):
http://f1.racing-liv...r/diapo_124.jpg

[27neil]

Sooooo obvious when you see the pictures, how silly do i feel !

Thanks A3

[kenjafield]

I'm still strugling with this And feel like a dumbass!

[Double Apex]

Kenjafield, let me try and visualise it for you with a oversimplified drawing of a cutout of the nose:

Single keel:

 ______

 |		  |

 |		  |

 |_____|

	  |

Double/twin keel:

 ______

 |	 |

 |	 |

 |_____|

 |		  |

With the single keel layout the lower supension arms are both connected to a single keel right underneath the middle of the nose. with the twin keel layout, each lower supension arm has it's own keel to which it is connected, one on the left side for the left wheel and one on the right side for the right wheel.

Maybe this helps?

Edit: damn, this isn't working

Edit 2: nevermind, I can't get it right and I see Scarbs has posted some excellent pics now

[A3]

Double Apex.... (try to use the "code" tags)

Single keel: Lower part of front suspension connects to a single keel on the underside of the chassis:




Twin keel: Lower part of front suspension connects to 2 keels, 1 on each side of the chassis, which leaves an open space between them:

[Enkei]

Below a picture of the FW25, a single keel car. You can see the lower wishbones are being attached to a single point under the keel.



Here's a picture of the FW26 . You clearly see the two lower wishbones coming together at two points (one left, one right). That's why this is called a twin keel.

[eoin]

kenjafield:

See the ferrari pic. Under the nose there is a piece of the nose sticking down with a part of the suspension attached. That is a single-keel.

You can only see one part of the twin-keel in the sauber. if you mirror the image for the other side you could have 2 keels-i.e twin-keel.
nose
_________
suspension----------------------|------------------------ suspension
keel
That is a single-keel. Often called a splitter.


nose
_________
suspension--------------------| |------------------------ suspension
twin-keel

see the difference?

[scarbs]

Here's two clear examples look at the bottom of the chassis, the lower suspension arms mount together on the ferraro on a "Single Keel" while the Saubers are seperated by being mounts on "twin keels"

[A3]

Arrows'extreme twin keel on the A23:
http://f1.racing-liv...l/diapo_207.jpg

[Chevy II Nova]

Money scarbs.

Anyone feel like finding the shot of the noseless Williams?

[eoin]

...oh yeah like those shots show anything scrabs....

[F1Johnny]

Thank you. This is the clearest I have seen it explained and it shows the differences that could occur with chassis stiffness etc.

[A3]

Originally posted by eoin
...oh yeah like those shots show anything scrabs....

[kenjafield]

Thank you all! I think I know what to look for now.

[kenjafield]

Further question: what are the benefits of each design? Why all the fuss about a twin-keeled Williams, or a single-keeled Sauber?

[Double Apex]

The single keel solution allows for a more rigid and stiff chassis. The twin keel solution allows for a better flow of air underneath the front of the car. A twin keel would generally also be heavier I think.

[scarbs]

A twin keel is only a part of the aerodynamic packaging, it needs to work with the wing, nose bargeboards etc, basically is moves the obstruction of the single keel to somewhere else, in fact to two places (either side). It is not inherently better than single keel. If the aero set up can gain from a twin keel, then the designer needs to think whether the added weight (for the same stiffness as a single keel) is worth it.

Williams had looked at single keels before, even when Willis was stil there, but the cost in stiffnessweight wasnt worth the aero gain. since then williams have improved their knowledge of structures and can reduce pay off between aero and stiffness, hence the FW26.

Eoin, is there a problem with the images?

Chevy, Here's my only shot of the Wiliams nose unclothed, my photographer colleague and Suttons got better shots with their (Much) better cameras. Note how the keel is not that thick and resembles the barge board mount used last year.

[eoin]

Eoin, is there a problem with the images?

LOL, sorry I was been sarcastic, the pictures show off the difference between single/twin-keel perfectly

question:

Does twin-keel have any effect on tyres?

[senna da silva]

Technically the term twin keel refers to two keels along the same axis. What is used on F1 cars is more accurately described as a "bilge keel", although it's no surprise that F1 journos don't know the difference and have propagated the misuse of the term twin keel.

;)

[Powersteer]

Oh my god, The Williams front suspension is as radical as its nose. I wonder what angles and length those wish bones are because they look very unconventional.

[kos]

Originally posted by Powersteer
Oh my god, The Williams front suspension is as radical as its nose. I wonder what angles and length those wish bones are because they look very unconventional.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I think that McLaren had very similar front suspension layout on MP/4-17, 18 and 19

[Chevy II Nova]

The 17 was splayed but not nearly as much as the 19 and 26.

[scarbs]

Heres the 17D mac keel

[scarbs]

Saubers 2003 twin keel



Saubers 2004 (ferrari 2003GA) single keel

[Chevy II Nova]

With the suspension mounting at that angle, flex must have been a bitch to deal with. Why didn't they splay them out like Mac?

[David Beard]

I think someone should try a much lower nose, then top and bottom wishbone mountings could be on the main chassis structure without the need for a "keel" at all....;)

[kilcoo316]

Originally posted by David Beard
I think someone should try a much lower nose, then top and bottom wishbone mountings could be on the main chassis structure without the need for a "keel" at all....;)

the ej-13 was like that, or had a greater splay than either mac or new williams, whichever way you want to look at it.

http://f1.racing-liv...diapo_118.shtml

[Fjodor]

Maybe a better picture of FW26 Twin keel design
Cheers!

[dosco]

Originally posted by David Beard
I think someone should try a much lower nose, then top and bottom wishbone mountings could be on the main chassis structure without the need for a "keel" at all....;)

Yeah, and maybe delete the IFS and go with a beam axle......;)

[furious_camel]

Originally posted by Fjodor
Maybe a better picture of FW26 Twin keel design
Cheers!

Why have all the other teams their suspension wishbones accessible when taking of the nose, whereas the new Williams is not featuring this? Has it anything to do with the shorter car?

[BRNDLL]

Originally posted by dosco


Yeah, and maybe delete the IFS and go with a beam axle......;)

Man... we are going to get some mileage out of that one. ;]

bb

[dosco]

Originally posted by BRNDLL



Man... we are going to get some mileage out of that one. ;]

bb

Hell yeah!

[Powersteer]

The camber changes that double wish bone offered all these years has now been taken over in F1.
The only hope we have now is the rear suspension.

[Wuzak]

Originally posted by David Beard
I think someone should try a much lower nose, then top and bottom wishbone mountings could be on the main chassis structure without the need for a "keel" at all....;)

Sort of like what they used to do?

[D. Heimgartner]

One keel, two keel, can we get any more keeler?

[alexbiker]

Originally posted by D. Heimgartner
One keel, two keel, can we get any more keeler?

There we go - Chrisine Keeler.

I thank yew

Alex

[superbad]

It's a good thing they don't let the suspension move at all, because that suspension geometry has to suck ass. The second Williams picture seems to show camber loss in bump. Yuck. There's a good reason lower wishbones are supposed to be longer than the top. A beam axle might not actually be a bad idea at this point.

[Bono]

Now I understand! Thanks a lot guys

[Tracy]

Can we now start to form some definitive consclusions in the single vs twin keel debate? With the exception of the Mclaren MP4/17 it seems that on the whole single keel cars seem to be more effective, eg Ferrarri, Renault, Bar. The team that has gone from single to twin keel, ie Williams seems to have gone backwards and Sauber have reverted to a single keel, although we have suspisions to the design origin of that car...

[Chevy II Nova]

It's hard to say. Williams could have just missed the mark on the rest of the car.

We will know come 2005 when Williams and Mac unviel their new designs.