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Minutiae:- French races


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#1 humphries

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Posted 16 January 2004 - 10:43

Just when you think you have got something sorted you suddenly realise you haven't. Motor-racing research is very much like that.

Example; on 4/7/1926 a meeting called the Circuit de Gattieres was run by the MC du Nice. Sorted. The year afterwards the race was run on the 12/6/1927. All I know is that Edward Bret won the main event. Has anybody more information? But the 1926 and 1927 events were the III and IV editions. So does anybody have dates for editions I and II? Usually local libraries will not entertain research unless you can provide the precise dates.

Likewise I now know there was a race for cyclecars organised by the Moto Club de Lyon on 21/5/1922 at Saint-Andre-de-Corcy. I only have a little information. Vassiaux (Spidos) beat Morel in his Amilcar in a time of 2:53' 05.6 over a distance of 236.8 km. Does anybody know more? And, yes, this was not the first edition but the second! Of course at the first meeting there may not have been a cyclecar race but does anybody know anything about these two meetings?

Finally, the FIR records have the 13/7/1913 race at Amiens and the 4/8/1913 at Le Mans as the first two cyclecar races to be organised. There is now a slight possibility that a cyclecar race was held on 8/9/1912 at Le Mans, the day before the II GP de France. Can anyone confirm one way or the other?

Any help would be much appreciated.

John

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#2 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 16 January 2004 - 12:07

The ugly date issue rises to the surface once more!
4/7/1926 ?
12/6/1927 ?
21/5/1922 clear
13/7/1913 clear
4/8/1913 ?
8/9/1912 ?

:confused:

#3 David McKinney

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Posted 16 January 2004 - 12:23

As here is no 13th month, these must be set out the internationally accepted way, not that used in only one or two countries (AFAIK)

#4 fvebr

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Posted 16 January 2004 - 13:14

Have a Look at That....
CLick on 'Quotes' and then get down the page...

http://club.mathis.f...A/usa.1.en.html

Not an Answer but just a Quote.....

#5 D-Type

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Posted 16 January 2004 - 14:06

I loved that article - the writer has a certain ... style.

#6 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 16 January 2004 - 17:34

Originally posted by humphries
...Finally, the FIR records have the 13/7/1913 race at Amiens and the 4/8/1913 at Le Mans as the first two cyclecar races to be organised. There is now a slight possibility that a cyclecar race was held on 8/9/1912 at Le Mans, the day before the II GP de France. Can anyone confirm one way or the other?...

Race report details from the 1913 AUTOMOBIL-REVUE:

July 13, 1913: Amiens section 15 x 17.501 km = 262.306
Cyclecars, 36 entries, 24 starters

1. Bedelia 3h55m54s
2. Sphinx 4h05m11s
3. Ronteix 4h11m16s
4.-7. etc.


August 4, 1913: 17 Sarthe 5 x 54 km = 270 km Coupe Internationale
Cyclecars, 17 entered,
1. Violet (Violet-Bogey) 3h38m54.6s
2. Bas (Bébé Peugeot) 3h39m32.0s
3. Jolibois (Ronteix) 3h43.50s
4.-8. etc.


September 21, 1913: Boulogne, Coupe des Auto, Voiturettes Grand Prix
1. Boillot ( Peugeot) 6h07m14s
2. etc.


...but no mention of a cyclecar race on 8/9/1912 at Le Mans!

#7 robert dick

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Posted 17 January 2004 - 09:27

Le Meeting du Mans 1912 :

Monday 9 September 1912 - Grand Prix de France (3 litre) + Coupe de la Sarthe (libre) - 12 laps/total distance 648 km.

Sunday 8 September 1912 - Coupe Internationale des Motocyclettes (motorcycles 250 cc, 350 cc, 500 cc, tricars, sidecars) - 22 laps of a "petit circuit"/total distance 396 km.
Voiturettes (max. displacement 1 litre) were included in the tricar class.
35 entries.
Devay (Triumph) won the general classification and 500 cc class in 5 h 6' 54".
On 14 and 15 the two Bédélias of Bourbeau (6 h 31' 30") and Bonville (6 h 33' 19").

#8 humphries

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Posted 18 January 2004 - 11:46

Robert

Thanks for the E-mail.

It appears that there was a sub-category for "cyclcars". Do you know if there were any other starters in this "Troisieme categorie" that retired or any other entrants that were dna?

Interesting.

John

#9 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 19 January 2004 - 02:18

Originally posted by humphries
...Likewise I now know there was a race for cyclecars organised by the Moto Club de Lyon on 21/5/1922 at Saint-Andre-de-Corcy. I only have a little information. Vassiaux (Spidos) beat Morel in his Amilcar in a time of 2:53' 05.6 over a distance of 236.8 km. Does anybody know more? And, yes, this was not the first edition but the second! Of course at the first meeting there may not have been a cyclecar race but does anybody know anything about these two meetings?...

I only found a cyclecar race on Sunday, May 21, 1922 at the Trabrennbahn (horse trotting track) at Baden, south of Vienna, Austria. Source the 1922 ALLGEMEINE AUTOMOBIL-ZEITUNG Nr.21/22, p36 with picture in Nr. 23/23 p21.
Cycle cars up to 1100 cc and 450 kg weight over 10 km:
1. – Otto Politzer (Mathis 4-cyl. 752 cc) 9m39.5s
2. – Bernhard Kandl (U-Wagen, 4-cyl. 1100 cc)
DNF – Alfred Perl (A. P.) felt impeded on lap 3 and gave up. He and Kandl put forward a protest against the winner.

Also on May 21, 1922 a cyclecar race was held for the Armangué Trophy near Barcelona.
12 laps x 30.284 km circuit, 20 starters. I have a brief report and two picures in the 1922 ALLGEMEINE AUTOMOBIL-ZEITUNG Nr.23/24 pp 14-16.

#10 robert dick

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Posted 19 January 2004 - 09:02

Originally posted by humphries
Do you know if there were any other starters in this "Troisieme categorie" that retired or any other entrants that were dna?


No : Neither "Omnia" nor "La Vie Automobile" published a complete entry/starter list.

#11 humphries

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Posted 19 January 2004 - 11:36

Robert

As I feared.


Hans

I've access to AAZ. A good source for racing in Germany and Austria up to WW2.

The 21 may 1922 II Trofeo Armangue was, as you know, stopped owing to a fatal accident on lap 2 and the race was re-run on 29 October.

In the abandoned race Alfred Neubauer was actually leading. It has always made me wonder why he made no reference to this race in his autobiography. Of course that book with its dubious accounts was probably written in part by a "ghost" writer.

Neubauer was driving a little "Sascha" Austro-Daimler and the mechanic wedged in next to the driver must have acquired a cauliflower ear, for Alf was a big lad then.


John

#12 Marcor

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Posted 02 February 2004 - 20:07

Lyon, 21 May 1922

Cyclecars 1100 cc, 236.8 km
1- Vassiaux (Spidos), 2h 53m 05s 3/5
2- Morel (Amilcar), 2h 58m 55s 2/5
3- Colas (Hinstin Sup), 3h 11m 28s 2/5

FL- Vassiaux (Spidos), 10m 02s

Cyclecars 750 cc, 177.6 km
1- Batagliola (Benjamin), 2h 28m 28s 2/5
2- Ricard (Mathis), 2h 40m 51s
3- Cellard (Mathis), 2h 51m 40s
4- Hibert (Benjamin), 3h 03m 10s
5- Lenfant (Benjamin), 3h 03m 01s 4/5

FL- Ricard

Same day as the motorcycling and sidecars GP.

Circuit de St André de Corcy
Organised by the Moto Club de Lyon

#13 Marcor

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Posted 02 February 2004 - 20:47

Circuit des Gattières, 4 July 1926

Final
1- Chiron (Bugatti 1500 cc), 1h 02m 13s
2- Proal (Bugatti 35 2 L), 1h 03m 56s
3- de Joncy (BNC), 1h 10m 38s
4- Fashion (Bugatti), 1h 20m 48s
5- Oilter (Berliet), 1h 21m 11s
6- Tamme (Amilcar), 1h 21m 25s
7- Mathieu (Mathis), 1h 28m 13s

Qualifying heats:

Racing cars under 2000 cc
1- Proal (Bugatti 35 2 L), 47m 41s

Racing cars under 1500 cc
1- Chiron (Bugatti 1500 cc), 46m 55s
2- Perret (Bugatti 1500 cc), 50m 20s
3- Calvie (Bugatti 1500 cc)

Racing cars under 1100 cc
1- de Joncy (BNC), 52m 40s
2- Martinatti (Salmson), 54m 35s

Racing cars under 750 cc
1- Mathieu (Mathis), 1h 07s

Sports cars under 2000 cc
1- Caisson (Bugatti), 1h 01m 31s

Sports cars under 1500 cc
1- Fashion (Bugatti), 57m 07s 1/5
2- Grémaud (Peugeot), 1h 04m 15s

Sportscars under 1100 cc
1- Tamme (Amilcar), 54m 5s

Org: AC and MC Nice

length of the track: 15.100 km
7 laps (final) = 105.7 km

#14 humphries

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Posted 02 February 2004 - 23:54

Marcor

Thanks for the 1926 C.de Gattieres results, but unfortunately they are the results I have. My fault for using a current English expression, "sorted", which means " completed to one's satisfaction".
Like most Brits we think everyone is totally au fait with the English language!!

If you have the 1924, 1925 and 1927 results that would be spiffing!

John

#15 Marcor

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Posted 04 February 2004 - 20:47

Circuit des Gattières, 12 June 1927
1- Edward Bret (Bugatti T35C 4855 2.3 L), 1h 03m 47s 4/5


Racing car 3 L
1- Bret, Edward (Bugatti T35C 4855), 1h 03m 47s 4/5

Racing car 2 L
1- Fashion (Bugatti), 1h 04m 39s 2/5

Racing car 1500 cc
1- Palomba (Bugatti), 1h 08m 25s 2/5
1- Tallet (Bugatti), 1h 17m 45s

Racing car 1100 cc
1- Signoret (Salmson), 1h 04m 09s 3/5
2- de Joncy (X)

Racing car 500 cc
1- Mathieu (X), 1h 11m 08s

Sport 3 L
1- Nicodemi (Ford-Montier), 1h 12m 52s

Sport 1500 cc
1- Dreyfus (Bugatti 1500 cc), 1h 08m

Sport 1100 cc
1- Marret (Salmson), 1h 08m 52s


4 laps = 60.4 km
190 corners by lap

#16 humphries

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Posted 05 February 2004 - 09:29

Marcor

Cheers, progress!

John

#17 humphries

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Posted 12 February 2004 - 19:42

Bol d'Or. Has anybody the full results, and better still the entry lists as well, for the 1928, 1929, 1939, 1947, 1948, 1949, 1950 and 1953 races? For research purposes photocopies are required of any detailed race reports ( French ? ) and/or programmes. Please contact me by PM.

Also I believe there is to be a new book on Montlhery by Jolly so the later races may be covered in detail in that. Anybody seen the book?

Also I am after the entry lists and full results for the two races held at Cadours 1948 ( Winner Mauries ? ) and 1949 ( Gerbout ? ). These were very minor events. In 1950 Raymond Sommer entered the race called the Trophee de Haute Garonne only for him to die at the wheel of Schell's Cooper-JAP, as is well known. What a loss. The first two editions may have been held in September.

John

#18 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 12 February 2004 - 21:56

Originally posted by humphries
Bol d'Or. Has anybody the full results, and better still the entry lists as well, for the 1928, 1929, 1939, 1947, 1948, 1949, 1950 and 1953 races? For research purposes photocopies are required of any detailed race reports ( French ? ) and/or programmes. Please contact me by PM...

John, did you already search AUTOMOBIL-REVUE or other German language magazines?

#19 humphries

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Posted 13 February 2004 - 12:17

Hans

Not Automobil-Revue. Increasingly this magazine appears to be a very good source and one from which I have not got photocopies! I always believed it was concerned more with general motoring matters. What is its coverage of the Fifties/ Sixties like with regard to European hill-climbs and the lesser-known races?

Moteurs, the French monthly, is another mag ( photocopies ) that I would like for the early Fifties. Later on the stats in this mag became less reliable.

John

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#20 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 13 February 2004 - 17:02

Originally posted by humphries
...Automobil-Revue. Increasingly this magazine appears to be a very good source and one from which I have not got photocopies! I always believed it was concerned more with general motoring matters. What is its coverage of the Fifties/ Sixties like with regard to European hill-climbs and the lesser-known races?...

John – please provide me with dates for the 1928, 1929 and 1939 Bol d'Or events, so I can start checking my magazines. It must have been a minor event because I cannot find it in Ed Cohin's tome (looking for dates).

Yes, the Swiss AUTOMOBIL-REVUE was a general automobile newspaper, issued usually twice a week, Tuesday and Friday, but the paper also covered the automobile sport. They did this pretty good or at least better than most other German language auto magazines of the 20's and 30's. My research does not extend past 1949, and I have no copies of the 40’s and 50’s . Holger –I believe– is now the expert for this Swiss newspaper, living close to the source.

When I searched through magazines 15 years ago, I only copied, what seemed important to me then, which was only Grand Prix related matter. When I make copies now, I attempt to copy all motor sports matter. This, of course, takes much longer and is also more expensive. Taking digital pictures with a camera reduces the cost but takes about just as long because I have the habit to write down pertinent information for each picture as I take them. This helps me later, when titling each picture on my hard drive.

#21 David McKinney

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Posted 13 February 2004 - 18:05

Butting in :D
1928 Bol d'Or was "early June"
1939 was 4 June

#22 humphries

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Posted 13 February 2004 - 19:09

David, Hans and Holger, and anybody else who is interested! I am afraid I still treat the forum like I would a letter. I still have to remind myself not to put "dear" or "yours sincerely" etc.

The dates I have for the Bol d'Or are as follows:- 27-28/6/1928, ??/5/1929, 3-4/6/1939, 14-15/9/1947, 16-17/5/1948, 4-5/6/1949, 5-6/6/1950 and 7-8/6/1953.

With the exception of Klausen I'm interested in full results of Swiss hillclimbs that were not covered by AAZ before 1940, and those held between 1946-1963 excluding those events that were designated the annual Swiss Mountain Championship race.

John

#23 anjakub

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Posted 13 February 2004 - 19:25

I have: Bol d'Or 19-20/5/1929

#24 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 13 February 2004 - 22:30

Originally posted by humphries
Bol d'Or. Has anybody the full results, and better still the entry lists as well, for the 1928, 1929, 1939...

AUTOMOBIL-REVUE, issue 1. June, 1928, No.47 p3
Sports cars:
1. Golaz (D.F.P.) 404 laps = 1688.720 km at 70.360 km/h average
2. Barrière (Barrière 1100 cc)
3.? Violet (Sima-Violet 750 cc) 325 laps = 1358.1 km at 56.6 km/h
Racing cars:
1. ???...ault (Sénéchal) 383 laps = 1609.4 km at 66.700 km/h
2. Violette Morris (BNC)

A poor result for a 3-year search! :(

#25 anjakub

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Posted 13 February 2004 - 22:47

Bol d'Or 1929 - only class winners

Cyclecars
350 cc : Cheret (Jack Sport) 1011 km
500 cc : Saladin (Monotrace) 1003 km
750 cc : Feger (Monotrace) 1283 km (record)
1100 cc : Gueret (Sandford) 1555 km
Sports cars
1100 cc : Colas (DFP) 1626 km
Ufa (Scap)
Racing cars
750 cc : Dumoret (Sima Violet) 1254 km
1100 cc : Dhome (Lombard) 1810 km = 75,5 km/h
Vanhoof (Rally) 1613,5 km
Vernet (Salmson) 1567,5 km

source: Auto i Sport 1929 (No.3)

#26 GIGLEUX

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Posted 13 February 2004 - 23:13

Bol d'Or 1947 entry list:

Course 1100:
1 X Simca écurie Gordini
2 Fiebre Simca écurie Gordini
3 Breillet Simca-Léger
5 Guérin Guérin de Coucy
6 X Cisitalia
7 Berte Berte
8 Dourlans Amilcar
9 Gauneau Amilcar
10 Le Jamtel Amilcar
11 Leclère Anthony
12 Dubois Spéciale
14 Pouponneau Amilcar
15 de Saugé Fiat
16 Achard Simca

Sport 1100
22 Vernet Simca
23 Alin Simca écurie Gordini
24 Cayla Simca écurie Gordini
25 Baboin Simca-8
26 Camerano Fiat
27 Chauvin Chenard-Walker
28 Petit Simca-8
29 Guittard Simca-8
30 Vernot-Gaud Simca
31 Chapsal Fiat
32 Liénard Simca Monopole
34 Riche Imperia
35 Denis Singer

Course 750
42 "Jeff" Amilcar
43 Redge Simca-Surva
44 Otterbein Simca-Surva

Sport 500

46 Molinari Simca
48 Georget Anthony

Course 350

50 Monet Anthony

Cyclecars 750

52 de Victor Le Nivet

Cyclecars 1100
54 Corrouge Corrouge
55 Collignon X

Cyclecars 350
60 Renaud Villard

Results

Sport 1100
1. Cayla Simca-Gordini 1970,203 km 82,091
2.Vernet Simca-Autobloc 1912,183
3 Meo Fiat 1892,738
4. Camerano Fiat 1855,691
5. Denis Singer 1665,966
6. Riche Imperia 1571,090

Sport 500
1.Molinari Simca 1263,142 km 52,672 km/h

Course 350
1. de Victor Le Nivet 1083,257 km 45,177 km/h

Course 100
1. Le Jamtel Amilcar 1659,358 km 69,139 km/h
2. Pouponneau Amilcar 1612,291
3. Berte Berte 1612,201
4. Dubois BNC 1467,123

Cyclecars 350 Renaud Villard 1247,235 km 51,968 km/h

#27 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 13 February 2004 - 23:14

AUTOMOBIL-REVUE 1. June, 1928, No.45 p5:
84 contestants have signed up for the Bol d’Or-Race, which is to take place at Pentecost. During the event, world champion Benoist will drive one lap of honor.

#28 GIGLEUX

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Posted 13 February 2004 - 23:35

XX° Bol d'Or 1948 entry list:

Course 1100
1. Breillet Simca-Léger
2. Berte Berte
3. Chauvin C.D.R.
4. Le Jamtel Amilcar
5. Mottet M.Special
6. Testut Amilcar-Jeff
7. Monet Salmson
8. Deschamps Simca-Deschamps
9. Chauzy K.D.F.-Chauzy
10. Dubois Dubois Spéciale
11. Contebsin Antony
12. Lambert Lambert
14 Pouponneau Amilcar
15 X Simca

Course 750
20. "Jeff" Amilcar-Jeff
21. Dedreux Dubois Spéciale

Course 500
26. Holtz Antony

Course 350
28. X Antony

Sport 1100
30. Louveau Simca
31. Guillard Simca
32. Lecerf Simca
33. Leclère Simca
34. Denis Singer
35. Huc Simca-JR
36. Roux Simca-JR
37. Scaron Simca-Gordini
38. X Simca
39. x MG
40. Leduc Simca

Sport 750
50. Laborde Simca
51. C.Denis Simca

Sport 500
55. Molinari Simca

Cyclecars 1100
60. Corrouge Corrouge

Cyclecars 750

65. de Victor Le Nivet

Cyclecars 350
70. Renaud Villard

Results

Sport 1100
1. Scaron Simca-Gordini 2072,900 km 86,370 km/h
2. Camerano Simca 1996,239
3. Lecerf Simca 1927,365
4. Guillard Simca 1580,040
5. Riche Imperia 1357,946

Course 1100
1. Le Jamtel Amilcar 1642,600 68,441 km/h
2. Gauneau Amilcar-Jeff 1335,060

Sport 500
1. Molinari Simca 1219,124 50,796 km/h

Cyclecars 750
1. de Victor Le Nivet 1332,590 55,523 km/h

Cyclecars 350
1. Renaud Villard 1289,079 53,711 km/h

#29 GIGLEUX

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Posted 14 February 2004 - 00:04

XXI° Bol d'Or 1949 entry list

Sport 1500
1 Lachaize DB-Citroën
2 Laverdure Berte Sp
4 Quentin Simca

Course 1100
10 Serraud Simca-Deho
11 Mottet M.Special
12 Vinot Amilcar-Jeff
14 Pouponneau Amilcar
16 Lambert Lambert Sp
17 Georget Chauzy-Sp
18 Vernet Simca
19 Le Jamtel Dergi
20 Breillet Simca-Léger
21 X Cisitalia
23 Robert Renault
24 "Jeff" Amilcar-Jeff

Sport 1100
30 Lecerf Simca
31 Puigesch Simca-Deho
32 Lacroix Simca-Deho
33 Estager Simca-Deho
34 Camerano Simca-Camerano
35 Fanfani Simca
36 Chauzy Chauzy-Sp
37 Ferid Simca-Ferid
38 Guillard Simca
39 Herbet BNC
40 Boyer Renault
41 Huc Simca
42 Fièbre Simca-Gordini
43 Manzon Simca-Gordini

Course 750
44 Pagès RS
45 Dubois Dubois Sp

Sport 750
50 Molinari Simca-Deho
51 de Malleville Dynamit
52 Gilson Simca
53 Brousse Simca-6
55 Bianchi Renault

Course 500
60 Denis ARS

Cyclecars 3 roues 1100
64 Corrouge Corrouge

Cyclecars 3 roues 750
65 Cornet Le nivet

Cyclecars 3 roues 500
66 Renaud Villard


Results

Sport 1100
1. Manzon 2487,542 km 101,586 km/h
2. Fièbre 2391,830
3. Huc 2205,043
4. Lecerf 2086,484
5. Guillard 2062,308
6. Fanfani 1754,466
7. Lacroix 1616,228
8. Ferid 1344,227

Sport 750
1. Molinari
2. Gilson
3. Brousse
4. Bianchi

Course 1100
1. Vernet 2282,279 km
2. Vinot
3. Lambert

Cyclecars 750
1. Cornet

Cyclcars 350
1. Renaud

#30 humphries

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Posted 14 February 2004 - 12:01

Jean-Maurice

Brilliant. Mersey buckets, as we used to say as schoolchildren.

Some interesting names and cars in that lot!

John

#31 RAP

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Posted 21 February 2004 - 09:49

Gigleux
Thank you very much for providing excellent details on the Bol d'Or. I wonder if I could ask you to clarify -
do the results list ALL finishers so that Overall finishing order can be calculated from distances?
you have provided entry list but I assume it is not known whether cars not listed in results were a retirement or if they did not start?

#32 Marcor

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Posted 10 September 2004 - 21:53

As I had recently access to a local source, the newspaper Lyon based LE PROGRES, I can add something about the cyclecar races at Saint-André de Corcy.

1920, GP du MC de Lyon, only motorbikes.

GP du MC de Lyon, 21 May 1922

Cyclecars 1100 cc, 236.8 km, 16 laps
1- Vassiaux (Spidos #55), 2h 53m 05s 3/5
2- Morel (Amilcar #56), 2h 58m 55s 2/5
3- Colas (Hinstin Sup #58), 3h 11m 28s 2/5

FL- Vassiaux (Spidos), 10m 02s

also entered:
#57, Mestivier
#59, Lecot
#60, Marchand


Cyclecars 750 cc, 177.6 km, 12 laps
1- Batagliola (Benjamin #52), 2h 28m 28s 2/5
2- Ricard (Mathis #51), 2h 40m 51s ((Le Progres: 2h 40m 51" 3/5)
3- Cellard (Mathis #50), 2h 51m 40s ((Le Progres: 2h 51m 40" 3/5)
4- Hibert (Benjamin #54), 3h 03m 10s (Le Progres: 3h 03m 10" 4/5)
5- Lenfant (Benjamin #53), 3h 03m 01s 4/5 (Le Progres: 3h 06m 01" 4/5)

FL- Ricard