23 replies to this topic

[Holger Merten]

I’d like to bring some structure in the short history of the P-Wagen.

Up to its first appearance to the Avusrennen, the Auto Union GP car was called Auto Union P Wagen. The P stood for Porsche, who developed the car.

Here a short summary from my article about the Auto Union racing department on 8W.

In November 1933 time had arrived for the future racing team and their first race-ready chassis to leave Zwickau for the Nürburgring. From 13 to 21 November 1933 the car was put through its paces.

New developments were tested at the AVUS on 12 January 1934. Here, near the heart of Berlin, it was impossible to throw up any more smoke screens - the first rumours started to emerge in the press.

Because of bad weather the team left Berlin to stage further tests at Monza. Meanwhile the racing department had completed a second car which was also dispatched to Monza. The programme was planned to run until January 30 but was extended to February 5.

On March 6 came the previously announced world speed record attempt on the AVUS, which attracted lots of bigwigs from the fields of politics, sports and technology: Major Brückner, NSKK chief Hühnlein, the German crown prince and Audi driver Wilhelm von Preussen. During the first roll-out the chief Auto Union representatives were also present, among them Horch and Audi founder August Horch, now member of the new Auto Union's supervisory board, chief engineer Willy Walb, Ernst Günter Burggaller and general director von Oertzen. They all saw Hans Stuck, Auto Union's number-one driver, set new a one-hour record (at 217.110kph), 200kms record (at 217.018kph) and 100-mile record (at 216.875kph).

There are only a very few pictures left from the history of the P- Wagen.
The P-Wagen had different body specifications and different colours (white and silver for bare metal) during the development and test drives or SRA of the car.

Perhaps we can bring some structure into these documents.
When, where, why? Here we go:

1


2



3


4


5


6

[Tim Murray]

Holger, I remember reading somewhere, a long time ago, that the original contract between Porsche and AU stipulated that the car should be called just the 'P Wagen' not 'Auto Union P Wagen'. Is this incorrect?

[Holger Merten]

This is correct Tim. That car should be called P-Wagen. And I found this name in several articles about test drives of the P-Wagen in early 1934. Like "Auto Union tests the new P-Wagen.", or something like that.

[Brun]

I've only been able to identify a few.

4. Hans Stuck, AVUS, March 6 1934.`

5. Test drives Nürburgring, either November 1933 or January 1934

6. Monza? The guy with the hat is Dr. Porsche.

[dolomite]

The car in #5 is painted white, is it not?

[Brun]

Not sure if it is painted, but the nose is polished. Weird. I've seen this picture before, but no clue as to why they did the nose like that.

[dretceterini]

Is it [possible that the nose is metal and the sides fabric?

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by dretceterini
Is it [possible that the nose is metal and the sides fabric?

Yes.

#1 looks like AVUS, but I'm confused by the grilles over the engine: they're not as raced in 1934 or 1935, so an interim design from Winter testing in 1934/5? The streamlining looks like a first try at what eventually turned up at the 1935 Avusrennen.

#2 Early 1934 in Italy? Record run on I can't remember which Autostrada ....

#3 Nurburgring, probably first half of 1934.

[dretceterini]

#1 and #2 both look like record attempts to me. Was the car ever raced with the pontoon "fairings" behind the front wheels as in #1 ??..

#3 and #4 look like very early shots, as the fabric sides are rather obvious.

[Wolf]

As for all this fabric stuff, I hope y'awl don't mind a small, related question... I've often (not all that often, but on several occassions) wondered whether this fabric was in some way preprocessed? As in impregnated and stiffened (as in heavily starched, or what they did in those days to get the job done)? Even modern cabriolets sometimes exhibit 'bulging' of the roof canvas, and the speeds those cars (not to mention some airplanes) were doing, this would pose a considerable problems... Thanks in advance.

[dretceterini]

I think the basic idea was that too rigid a body would cause stress cracks. I think most fabric bodies had considerable wood framing under them, and were stiffened with layers of paint and shelac.

[Hans Etzrodt]

The Auto Union racing car (also P-Car) arose from Ferdinand Porsche’s own initiative. No one had given him an order for it. The 750 kg formula, specifications announced in October 1932, was very close to the ideas of Ferdinand Porsche. It had a maximum weight limit with an entirely free choice of engine, leaving the designer with the broadest latitude possible and therefore it would be the most interesting one. In fact, Porsche's technical mind was excited by it and on November 15, 1932 a calculation sheet came into being, handwritten by Rabe, based on the facts discussed by Dr. Porsche, Kales, Rosenberger and Rabe. This sheet forecast quite accurate technical data for the future Auto Union racing car: a V-16 supercharged engine with cylinders set at an included angle of 45 degrees; Maximum rpm at first 4,500 (to be increased later to 6,000) maximum speed 182 mph, bore 68, stroke 75 mm, cubic capacity 4,358 cc, 7:1 compression ratio.

But how did they get to this point? It is commonly told that Porsche was influenced through their team member Adolf Rosenberger and the Benz Tropfenwagen, a rear-engined grand prix car of 1923. Not mentioned is the fact that the qualified Porsche design team had prior experience with Austro-Daimler and Daimler-Benz racing cars. Therefore it surely is a misleading conclusion, to state that a group of highly qualified design engineers was inspired by Rosenberger and Benz. It is a fact that the Porsche design team at first laid out the engine with the highest possible capacity and the lowest weight, a V-16 with only one camshaft in the head to operate valves on both banks. To minimize the weight, there was the question of where best to locate the engine. It very soon became clear that by placing the engine in the middle of the car and the gearbox behind the axle, they would achieve the lowest possible combined weight without sacrifice of strength. Additionally, lighter torsion bar springs were introduced at the front suspension and Erwin Komenda designed the very light body of only 45 kg to be mounted to a very sturdy chassis.

To enable Porsche to build this racing car, a new company was registered under the name of Hochleistungsfahrzeugbau GmbH (High Performance Vehicle Construction Co. Ltd.), independent of Porsche’s Design office. At that time the directors of the newly established Auto Union Company approached Porsche as the right man to design a racing car for their new company. So, they asked him if he would be interested to design such a car for them. Porsche smiled at the two Auto-Union directors: ‘I’ve got it already here in my pocket.’ This racing car project carried Porsche design number 22. In the first year of its appearance it was still called the Auto Union-P to show appreciation to the designer.

Above information possible thanks to descriptions by Richard von Frankenberg and Dr. Ing. h.c. Ferry Porsche.


The car appeared in AAZ magazine descriptions as:
Porsche-Rennwagen der Auto Union (February 1934)
Der P-Wagen (February 1934)
Der Porsche-Heckmotor-Rennwagen (March 1934)
Der P-Wagen der Auto Union (May 1934)
Der P-Wagen (June 1934)
Suck auf P-Wagen (June 1934)
Die Porsche-Wagen der Auto Union (June 1934)
Momberger auf P-Wagen hatte in der ersten Runde Pech. (June 1934)
Prinz zu Leiningen, der dritte P-Fahrer …(June 1934)
Der von Dr. Ing. Porsche konstruierte Auto Union Rennwagen (July 1934)
Auto Union Rennwagen (August 1934)
Die Wagen der Auto Union … (August 1934)
Hans Suck auf Auto Union … (August 1934)
Die Wagen der Auto Union … (September 1934)
Stuck und Momberger auf P-Wagen (Auto Union)… (September 1934)
Prinz zu Leiningen auf seinem Auto Union Wagen …(October 1934)
Stuck mit seinem P-Wagen der Auto Union … (Oktober 1934)
Auto Union Wagen ( May 1935)
Auto Union Rennwagen (June 1935)
Auto Union Rennwagen (July 1935)
Varzi auf Auto Union (September 1935)
Hans Stuck auf Auto Union (September 1935)
Rosemeyer auf Auto Union (September 1935)

[Vrba]

As my knowledge on Auto Union is very basic, I would like to ask what's the difference/connection between P-Wagen and A-Typ!
Thank you.

Hrvoje

[karlcars]

Great thread, guys!

The body designer was Erwin Komenda and he has a website at www.komenda.at.

I kommend it!

[Holger Merten]

After Hans short summary of the early days of the P-Wagen I will come back to the pictures. Although we are only talking about some six month, you can identify several body configurations.

For the future I will get some order in those pictures.

1, 2, 3:
So I'm sure, these pictures were taken during the SRA at the Avus on 6th march 1934

4:
Also Avus? Please consider, the car has no aerodynamic covers at the axle.

5:
This must be the Nürburgring. In the background I can identify a DKW (700 ccm two-stroke-engine). Would be a long trip to Monza with this small car. I would have preferred a Horch.

6:
The last one is original posted by Jean-Maurice GIGLEUX to TNF, who supports us here always with really new material. And he indicated this picture as Monza.

[Brun]

Originally posted by Holger Merten

4:
Also Avus? Please consider, the car has no aerodynamic covers at the axle.

Kirchberg also shows that picture. He wrote that it is at the AVUS.

[Holger Merten]

Perhaps I have to add this link:

It shows the P-Wagen during the first tests at the Nürburgring in November 1933. Beside the car: Teammanager Willy Walb.

Here is the picture.

[Holger Merten]

Originally posted by Brun


Kirchberg also shows that picture. He wrote that it is at the AVUS.

Yes Brun. But I have an information that the P-Wagen was tested also at Avus in January. But I couldn't proof that information by my sources.

Pönisch told me that the following picture was also taken during tests in January at Avus. But I won’t agree. Such a committee is only for smiling winners (of SRA). And not for an inofficial presentation of a new car.

BTW: Have alook at the covers at the axle.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by karlcars
...The body designer was Erwin Komenda and he has a website at www.komenda.at.

I kommend it!

It was my mistake to misspell his name.
I corrected it now.

[GIGLEUX]

Only for fun, the P-Wagen when breaking records in March 1934. A picture published at the time to show how quick was the car!!!

Stuck at the wheel before or after the record breaking.

[Holger Merten]

Originally posted by GIGLEUX

Stuck at the wheel before or after the record breaking.

I havethe whole picture. It was taken after the successful record attempts. Stuck looks really happy.

[Holger Merten]

Originally posted by Vitesse2



#1 looks like AVUS, but I'm confused by the grilles over the engine: they're not as raced in 1934 or 1935, so an interim design from Winter testing in 1934/5?

These grills are the most important design differencies between the P-Wagen and the Typ A. Until the debut at Avus the Auto Union GP car hadn't any longer those grills.

[aldo]

Just for adding something from a secondary source. The official magazine of the Royal Italian Automobile Club, named R.A.C.I., published a two-pager on the new Auto Union in the end of January 1935 issue. The car is presented as the "P.Wagen" and its color is reported as silver paint.

[GIGLEUX]

How the P-Wagen was presented in french magazins.
From L'Actualité Automobile April 1933, under the title: A new german racing car.

Mercedes which was alone in Germany to build and raced racing cars is to have now a national contender. And this new contender is also to appear on Europe's tracks and circuits.
The creator of this car is the Dr. Porsche, well known in the cars circle, who established the plans of the 8 liter racing Mercedes and designed Austro-Daimler and Steyr engines.
Technical director of Wanderer he is to build this racing car for a newly created subsidiary company of Wanderer, the Hochleistungs Fahrzeug AG.
Some words about the car: single seater, conforming to the 1934-36 formula, four independant wheels. 16 cyl engine, cc between 3 and 4 liters with two superchargers and a five gears gearbox.
The power will be of 300 hp and speed approx. 250 km/h.
The engine is built at the Zundapp plant of Nuremberg and the chassis at Horch, Zwickau.
It is expected that the first tests will occur in some weeks and that the car could participate to the main events of the season. The following drivers, Hans Stuck, zu Leiningen and Sebastian are to race it.
Other descriptions were published later. Are you interested?