17 replies to this topic

[Mobile_Chicane]

from autosport :Mugen to leave F1 at end of season


Mugen out, creating yet more problems for Prost


Following the announcement of Jordan’s five year works Honda engine deal, the future of the team’s current engine supplier Mugen does not look bright as the name is set to disappear from Formula 1 at the end of this year.

Mugen, the Honda-owned engineering specialists, re-entered Formula 1 in 1995 with the Ligier team, now Prost. Supplying Ligier was viewed as a convenient test arena for Honda to carry out development away from the limelight before returning with a full works assault. The works deal did not materialise until last year when Honda began exclusively supplying British American Racing.

With this year’s Jordan chassis looking to be increasingly competitive, Honda have now offered a works deal to Jordan and as of next year will supply both teams.

Originally this looked to have been good news for Prost as the Mugen supply would become available allowing the French team to renew its links with the Japanese firm. However, with two Honda works teams, Mugen would appear to be surplus to requirements. This leaves Prost little in the way of options on engines for next year, laying yet more woe at the French team’s door.

The team can either attempt to make peace with existing engine supplier Peugeot, who are set to leave F1 at the end of the season, alternatively a deal could be struck with Supertec creating an unofficial French national team. Either way, the options are limited.

Mugen will concentrate on existing engine programmes in the Formula Nippon series in Japan.

[Ray Bell]

Or sell up to a company wanting to come in themselves... but not a likely proposition for Alain. Could he perhaps, with his past Ferrari ties and all, get in on the deal that Sauber have to use last year's Ferrari engines?
(perhaps that's a poor choice for 2002, given the result the other day!)

[Arnaldo]

hEY RAY!! CAN'T ALAIN GET A RENAULT ENGINE? (sorry fo rhte caps, my mistake). I mean, they are both frogs, n'est pas? It seems that the Peugeot engine has suddenly become more powerful during this last race. I am sure Alain will be able to work some sort of a deal. (can't he?)

[MacFan]

I thought the rights to the Peugeot engine had been bought by a Japanese syndicate, with the intent of developing & supplying the engines a la Supertec (ok, Supertec didn't do much development). Would this not be the most likely engine for Prost next year, given that all the decent ones seem to be taken?

I heard also that the Mugen engine is definitely finished as of next year. Mugen wanted to carry on, but Honda can't or will not supply them with parts next year.

A deal with Supertec sounds unlikely as well. Renault are said to be unwilling to dilute their efforts by supplying more than just Benetton next year, and Tom Walkinshaw has an option to use the Supertecs if they are still available.

[Mobile_Chicane]

Walkinshaw does have the 2nd Renault/Supertech option. I'm pretty sure that they will retain this.

Also its interesting that Pedro de la Rosa doesn't want to leave Arrows despite other options available as he said on a previous interview that staying at Arrows was a better option.

Perhaps when Renault comes back fully they will be able to supply two teams with works engines just like they did with Williams and Benetton in the past. They have the capacity to do it.

What's the Japanese co that has Peugeots program?

[MacFan]

Mobile Chicane,

I raked through the last few Autosports to find this.

Peugeot have reportedly sold the intellectual property rights to its F1 engine to a Japanese organisation called Asian Motor Techniques. The fee is rumored to be nominal. The son of Sony's founder is believed to be involved.

The Technical Director of AMT is Enrique Scalabroni, former Ferrari designer. Minardi and Sauber are rumored to be interested in running the engines next year, and Toyota could be willing to purchase the technology to help its own F1 start-up.

David Richards has denied he is involved, although nobody asked the question..

Source - Autosport May 25 and June 1

[Nathan]

Oh man, you guys. OK listen to me very carefully now.

Mugens leaving should not be a big surprise. All Mugen ever was, and ever will be, is a way for Honda to keep in touch with F1, and not have depreciate the Honda name in F-1. They can still see whats what, and whats needed, without having to spend millions more trying to compete. Thats it. And Ill bet when Honda leaves again, within a few years guess what? I bet you will see Mugen will return. Why not? It has a F1 pedigree now I guess. The Mugen engine was 100% funded by Honda all along. I bet half of Mugens engineers are now sitting drawing CAD pictures for Honda F1 now. Everyone seems to think Mugen is so independant from Honda. ITS OWNED BY HONDA! In theory, quite a bit of last years Mugen was just Honda testing parts for this years car. Why do you think Mugen didnt become a winning engine until Honda was about to enter F1 again? And how else can Honda make such a damn good reliable engine so soon? Look at BMW. They have been doing this for years now. Since 97 I believe. Honda only decided to enter in early to mid 98.

Honda wont sell anything from Mugen. That would basically be like selling secrets from Honda! They will just neatly fold it up, and put on a shelf until Honda leaves again.

[Megatron]

Nathan is correct. Mugen was always just a name for Honda to use until they came back into F1. The Mugen engine was usually rated heavy and troublesome by most of the teams that carried it until Honda knew they were coming back into F1 in 1998. Then they started pouring all kinds of cash into the Mugen engine.

This does put Prost in a tough spot though......maybe they can pull another Minardi?

Gee....whatever happened to a good old reliable customer enigne? (oh yea, Ford dropped thier customer program).

[Witt]

But there was still a fundamental difference between Honda and Mugen, wasn't there? I always thought Mugen was run by Mr Honda's nephew in law, or something. I always thought that Honda sent their "second rate" mechanics (who are still bloody good) to mugen, while their best worked on road cars. So in essence Honda still had their finger in the pie, so when they came to build the current engine, they used all Mugen's info and used the best engineers that Honda have. Is any this right, or close to it?

[Megatron]

Mugen is ran by the founders son (I know his name, never try to spell it).

And yes, some of the parts that Jordan used last year has reportedly showed up on the BAR this year. (Although it should be mentioned that the new Honda is very different from the Mugen unit, a good bit lighter and more driveable to name a few).

[Nathan]

Wasnt it Hirotoshi Honda who started Mugen?

At anyrate Witt you are close to correct. The Honda is really a better design than the Mugen. I think Honda used things such as bore/stroke design, combustion chamber design, intake/exhaust design, things that have greatly changed since they were last here in the 3.5-liter days. The Mugen engineers/mechanics were I think Hondas way of motivating their staff. Promote them to the race team for a few years, and excpect very good results when they went back to designing road cars. Hey it worked.

Mega, can you fill me in on the details of the Megatron engine? I have always wondered about it. Is it Japanese?

[goGoGene]

Honda, once upon a time owned Mugen, then was partial owner of, but recently (with the BAR dealing) fully sold Mugen to Honda Jr. The founders son (as previously stated)

The only thing "Honda" about Mugen is the Presidents name. There were several articles about this earlier this year. There continues to be a relationship between these companies, but that's it, a business relationship, like Ilmore and Mercedes.

ggg

[Pascal]

Nathan, the Megatron engine was a rebadged BMW used by Arrows after the German manufacturer stopped its Formula 1 involvement in the mid-80's.

goGoGene is correct. Mugen is an independent company, though it obviously retains strong links with Honda, but not as strong as Ilmor's with Mercedes, as the latter is a majority shareholder of the former.[p][Edited by Pascal on 07-04-2000]

[Megatron]

The Megatron engine was a rebadge BMW turbo turbo after BMW ended its offical involvement.

Originally, only Arrows, who had ran BMW power since 1984, were to run it, begining in 1987.

However, after Rene Arnoux publically bashed the Alfa Romeo turbo in preseaon testing, Ligier also signed on. As a side note, the reason that Ligier suffered so many suspenion faulires in 1987 was due in part to the fact that the Megatron was heavier than that of the Alfa Romeo.

Eddie Cheever scored a podium in 1988 with it, and it took Arrows to fourth in the CC the same year, the best ever for the team.

It was based off a production BMW block with a W4 design.

It was a German engine straight from the Barvarian Motor Workers.

In 1987, it produced around 1200 HP. The engine was usually plagued by turbo problems, but was always regarded as a decent engine, although a bit thirsty.

[Nathan]

Pascal and Gogo. Who do you think funded the Mugen engine?? Muge?? HAHAHA, I dont think so guys. Do either of you have the slightest clue as to how much it costs to build and develop a Formula-One engine? Especially one that has been mid-pack the last 5-6 years. Ill grant it is a customer engine, but it is no where near as expensive as the Supertec or Ferrari. Supertec's R&D Budget was $50-million in 98. Hence why they charged $20-million a pop for use. The rest came from Renualt and owners.

Mugen doesnt even sell more than $50-million in products per year. Not too mention they also have to fund F3 engines, JGTC engine, etc. The Mugen F1 project is as I said a way for Honda to keep in touch without having to tarnish there name. Funded by Honda, built and raced by Mugen.

P.S. Thanks Megatron and Pascal for enlightening me!

[Pascal]

Nathan, you fail to consider that Mugen doesn't only sell products. They often act as an external engineering office for Honda, and get paid for that. So even if you are right to say that they've always been Honda's semi-official front in Formula 1 since the Japanese constructor closed down its official involvement, they have kept a level of independence that cannot be compared with Supertec's. Furthermore, Mugen's engineering office is working for a range of different car manufacturers, much like Lotus did when they were owned by General Motors. Therefore, I think you miss my point. I never said in my post that Honda didn't bring the money that kept Mugen's F1 on track, but seeing Mugen as simply Honda's puppet is incorrect.

[Megatron]

Mugen also does some electronics in Japan, as a foot note.

A little history:

In 1991, Honda arranged for Tyrrell to make use of the 1990 Honda V10 that powered McLaren in 1990 with Mugen doing some of the work on the engine while Honda switched to a V12 for McLaren. (Most people seem to forget that a V12 won both WC and CC in 1991, BTW).

Although they offically carried the badge "Honda", (proablly because Honda boy Nakajama was behind the wheel), in 1992 they went to Footwork.

After two not so great years with Footwork, Mugen found thier way into the Lotus in 1994.

When Lotus folded, Mugen signed to supply Minardi in 1995. But when Ligier boss Briotoire took the Renault engine away to Benetton, ol Flavio swiped the Mugens while Minardi had a standing contact!

All this with the same basic block that supplied McLaren in 1990.

When Ligier became Prost, Mugen and Honda both wanted Nakano to take a second seat, something that strained the relationship between the two.

In 1998, when they stuck with Jordan, they were really serious about coming back into F1. Is it any conicidence that during the year developement picked up tremendously?

In Germany, the Jordans were fitted with an all new Mugen engine, replacing the aging unit they had.

To say that Mugen is totally a lackey of Honda is not totally true. Honda may own most of it and I could see Mugen as a little brother to Honda but they also do a lot of home electronics in Japan.

[Pascal]

Originally posted by Megatron
Honda may own most of it and I could see Mugen as a little brother to Honda...

That's precisely the point. Mugen is owned in totality by Hirotoshi Honda, who doesn't have any official link to Honda, despite being the son of the company's founder.