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Duesenberg in Romania


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#1 Leif Snellman

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Posted 28 January 2004 - 20:28

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This picture of a Duesenberg sent to me from my Romanian friend Mihai Dumitru may perhaps be of interest to the TNF readers.

"Built for Indianapolis with asymmetrical front-suspension, this particular car with a 4.9 litre straight-eight engine has fascinated generations of Romanians. The car with red bodywork was brought to Romania in 1932 or 1933 and started mostly secondary races, often its complexities defeating its Romanian crew. It survived WW II hidden in a tractor factory in Brasov. In the early 50s the communist regime really began to make his mark felt and with auto racing being considered a decadent activity, all racing was stopped and many expensive cars were simply melted as scrap heap. This city has a long history of anti-communism resistance. A decade later, the regime was beginning to relax, as the Red Army troops were leaving Romania, but the important thing is that the car survived those hard years. In the summer of 1978, the 1930 Duesenberg was donated to the Technical Museum in Bucharest. However, the current owner of the tractor factory in Brasov claims it was just a temporary transfer. The car is in the middle of a legal battle between the Technical Museum in Bucharest and the new owner of the tractor factory in Brasov.

Unfortunately in recent decades the red Duesenberg had little appropriate restoration and is in poor condition today."

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#2 Doug Nye

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Posted 28 January 2004 - 21:29

Ah yes, the second of our old friends the Skinny Clemons 'Wonder Bread Specials'....????????

DCN

#3 Mihai

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Posted 29 January 2004 - 13:26

Hey Douggie, are you the legendary guy who wrote 30+ motor racing books :confused:

#4 Doug Nye

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Posted 29 January 2004 - 14:51

: - no - I suspect I'm the other mortal one :drunk:

DCN

#5 Vitesse2

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Posted 29 January 2004 - 15:58

http://forums.atlasf...&threadid=51804
:)

#6 Leif Snellman

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Posted 29 January 2004 - 19:50

So that one has already been discussed too! :eek:

#7 Mihai

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Posted 30 January 2004 - 12:55

This website below says that another racing Duesenberg (ex-Whitney Straight), similar to the one presented here by Leif is on permanent display in the Brooklands Museum. I’m no expert, but I would rather say it ain’t that similar. Compare the photos and tell me if I’m wrong :

http://www.retromobi.../tehnic/teh.htm

#8 D-Type

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Posted 31 January 2004 - 23:06

Mihai,

You must remember that the English Duesenberg has undergone a total restoration to its original Indianapolis condition whereas the Romanian one has had a long life and appears to have never been restored.

After 70 years two cars that were initially identical will have evolved in different ways. Just look at the various P3 Alfas or the ERA's, or even the Maserati 250F's, which are only 50 years old or so.

#9 Doug Nye

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Posted 31 January 2004 - 23:14

The two-seat 'Wonder Breads' were Indianapolis 'Junk Formula' cars - one surviving today in Rumania, the other with Walt Hill in Florida the last I heard - while the Brooklands slimline single-seater car uses a Clemons engine which almost certainly came from Walt's two-seat car in 1932-33 and houses that in what appears to be a 1927-period Indy Duesenberg single-seater slimline monoposto. They are very different animals.

DCN

#10 D-Type

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Posted 01 February 2004 - 01:31

Thanks for clearing up the confusion, Doug, and apologies to all for posting misleading information.

#11 Mihai

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Posted 02 February 2004 - 10:27

When I was a joint-winner of the 8W game (sections 50s and 80s), the guys from 8W said ‘Are we making it too easy?’. I’m not half as smart as anyone here, could anyone explain to me what a Junk Formula car is :confused: ?

#12 Vitesse2

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Posted 02 February 2004 - 10:51

The so-called Junk Formula was really a bit of a step backward, but inevitable in the context of the time - the 1930 Depression. The idea was to lower the cost of racing and promote the use of production cars and engines. Maximum capacity was increased to 366ci (6 litres) and riding mechanics were once more required, so the more specialist single-seater racing cars which had been developed in the late 20s were now redundant. It was now possible to go racing for about $2500, rather than $15000!

The Junk Formula probably saved Indy, since it encouraged new manufacturers and ensured full grids and big entries.

#13 David McKinney

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Posted 02 February 2004 - 12:15

Only slightly OT...
The Wall Street Crash was in October 1929
The first "junk formula" Indianapolis 500 was in May 1930
But I'm sure I've read somewhere that the JF was announced in January 1929, yes as a measure to reduce costs, and to encourage manufacturer involvement, but not as a result of the Wall Street Crash or the Great Depression which came in its wake
Perhaps some of our American experts can elucidate (or tell me I've got the announcement date wrong :lol: )

#14 Vitesse2

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Posted 02 February 2004 - 12:23

David: our esteemed host set me right on that one a little while back when we were discussing the Golden Submarine .....

http://forums.atlasf...212#post1339212

:)

However, I plead guilty to clumsy phrasing in my post above! :blush:

#15 David McKinney

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Posted 02 February 2004 - 14:43

Thanks Richard (and especially Don) :up:

#16 Mihai

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Posted 04 February 2004 - 08:54

Thank you both very much. Vitesse2, you also know something else that I don’t. You said in a previous topic that Jean Calcianu drove a Duesenberg-engined special in the 1937 Bucharest GP. Tell me the entire story. All my various written sources are linking this car to a Romanian racing driver called Vasile Abrudan, very active during the late 40s. But I have nothing about its pre-war years like this car didn’t existed.

I can add from a recently found picture that as late as 1948, the red Duesenberg was actually white and carried a huge Indy-style number 4 on its cockpit. Four letters were written on the engine cover, the final one being an ‘A’. It was repainted red because, well, red was very popular in communism.

#17 Mihai

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Posted 04 February 2004 - 09:07

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This is the Wonder Bread Special driven by Joe Russo to 17th in the 1933 Indy 500, earning him a grand total of 320 $

#18 Vitesse2

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Posted 04 February 2004 - 13:16

Originally posted by Mihai
Thank you both very much. Vitesse2, you also know something else that I don’t. You said in a previous topic that Jean Calcianu drove a Duesenberg-engined special in the 1937 Bucharest GP. Tell me the entire story. All my various written sources are linking this car to a Romanian racing driver called Vasile Abrudan, very active during the late 40s. But I have nothing about its pre-war years like this car didn’t existed.

Looking at this again, my source may be wrong. Quite why I inserted the word "special", I can't remember: the results book I quoted just says Duesenberg, while the Georgano Encyclopaedia mentions Calcianu driving both Maserati and Duesenberg. Of course, Georgano's source may be King-Farlow, who was, I believe, working from memory in some cases when he compiled the later editions of his book - Sheldon follows King-Farlow too.

So, if you're correct and Calcianu didn't drive a Duesenberg, then maybe the unidentified 8CM in the picture in the other thread was his? Do you know what model of Maserati he had?

#19 Mihai

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Posted 06 February 2004 - 10:00

Vitesse2, concerning the no2 car in the 1937 Bucharest GP, click on the link below and read my line. I have two theories.

http://forums.atlasf...&threadid=51804

Now let’s go back to the Duesenberg. An engineer from the Technical Museum in Bucharest told me that Calcianu drove the Duesey in pre-war years but I had doubts on him. Now you’re mentioning me two sources. That’s good stuff what you’re saying to me, it may be true! The fact that the Duesey was brought to Romania in 1932 is solid reference. Someone had to put this car to work before the late 40s, when Vasile Abrudan drove it in various races.

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#20 Mihai

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Posted 21 April 2004 - 11:11

Romanian racing legend Marin Dumitrescu (now 85) confirms that this is the red Duesenberg displayed for me by Leif. Apparently, this is how it originally looked, when it came from the US. I am investigating the history of this car for a huge press material, maybe a book. Any information subscribed by you is highly praised !

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Chasing the Duesenberg in this early post-war picture taken in a Bucharest race is Marin Dumitrescu in a Romanian-built ‘Eigenbau’ based on the BMW 328. Eventually, the methanol-burning Eigenbau won by quite a margin on the twisty street-track where the massive Indy beast couldn’t be driven at constant high speeds, like God intended to.

Hi-res 300 dpi version of this pic available for you if you send me your email address by a PM.

#21 uechtel

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Posted 21 April 2004 - 12:33

zzzzing!

Did I hear "BMW 328"?

PM is under way... :wave:

#22 David McKinney

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Posted 21 April 2004 - 13:11

Thanks Mihai
I don't need a hi-res pic, but
1) Do you know what year this is?
2) Who's driving the Duesenberg?

#23 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 21 April 2004 - 16:31

Mihai, I looked trough my German language magazines but I cannot find any noteworthy mention about the Bukarest races, let alone the Duesenberg. :(

#24 Don Capps

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Posted 21 April 2004 - 21:33

This is exactly the sort of thread that this place exists to support.... I really enjoy this sort of thing.


As an aside, I may have found a way -- as awkward as it might be be -- to access my AAA microfilm with a reader. The tricky part is that my film is 16mm and were it 35mm there would be no problem. We are going to play around with it this weekend. I mention this since no end of interesting tidbits pop up in the Contest Board Bulletins and there just might be something there they could help with this effort. I don't know, but we will see.

#25 Aanderson

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Posted 22 April 2004 - 03:42

Originally posted by David McKinney
Only slightly OT...
The Wall Street Crash was in October 1929
The first "junk formula" Indianapolis 500 was in May 1930
But I'm sure I've read somewhere that the JF was announced in January 1929, yes as a measure to reduce costs, and to encourage manufacturer involvement, but not as a result of the Wall Street Crash or the Great Depression which came in its wake
Perhaps some of our American experts can elucidate (or tell me I've got the announcement date wrong :lol: )


Essentially, you are correct. The announcement of the so-called Junk Formula by Triple A/Indianapolis Motor Speedway was in early 1929, as a response to the less-than stellar field (numbers-wise) in 1928 at the Speedway. This did pre-date the stock market crash and the ensuing recession-turned-depression by about 9-10 months.

The Wonder-Bread Duesenberg, and the Rumanian Duesenberg are "Junk-formula" era cars, but their engines were hardly junk! Those are Duesenberg Model A passenger car engines, dating from the first go-round of Duesenberg passenger cars, having been built from 1922-27, prior to the famed, and certainly stellar Duesenberg Model J and SJ engines. Sadly, after the fiery, tragic crash of the Gordon Buehrig-designed, "Double Barrel Duesenberg" into the pits at Indianapolis in practice for the 1933 500, all Duesenberg Model A Engines were summarily banned for further competition at Indy, and other AAA sanctioned events. The Double Barrelled Duesenberg suffered the misfortune of breaking its crankshaft, having only 6 main bearings to support an 8-throw crank, not unreasonable at the time it was designed (even the 420cid, 265hp Model J had but 6 main bearings), but with a terribly light crankshaft stemming from the Duesenberg brothers' insistence on lightweight, powerful engines--the Model A Duesy was simply not designed for high-speed racing.

Art Anderson

#26 Mihai

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Posted 22 April 2004 - 08:54

Originally posted by uechtel


Did I hear "BMW 328"?


Indeedy-doo! It’s based on the pre-war BMW 328 sports car. Full technical data on the transformation is described on 10 pages in his memory book. Some years ago I read a superb article about the Eigenbau period in Germany only to discover in recent months that Romania’s Marin Dumitrescu built 3 of these for himself. I had a marathon-interview with him because I had so many questions and I still have. His son owns a Citroën service and a showroom in Bucharest, and he goes there every day. Impressively active for his age, I should say. I don’t know how many Eigenbau artisans are still alive, he is very much so.

I plan to start an entire new thread dedicated to the Romanian Eigenbaus. But for the moment could you tell me about the Duesenberg’s racing background in the US after looking at its livery?

Year: 1949
Duesenberg’s Driver: Vasile Abrudan

#27 uechtel

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Posted 22 April 2004 - 11:35

Originally posted by Mihai


Indeedy-doo! It’s based on the pre-war BMW 328 sports car. Full technical data on the transformation is described on 10 pages in his memory book. Some years ago I read a superb article about the Eigenbau period in Germany only to discover in recent months that Romania’s Marin Dumitrescu built 3 of these for himself. I had a marathon-interview with him because I had so many questions and I still have. His son owns a Citroën service and a showroom in Bucharest, and he goes there every day. Impressively active for his age, I should say. I don’t know how many Eigenbau artisans are still alive, he is very much so.

I plan to start an entire new thread dedicated to the Romanian Eigenbaus.


I´m already excited...

But sorry, I can´t help you on the Duesy :|

#28 Mihai

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Posted 23 April 2004 - 12:57

Don, you're a prince! Thank you for making it a 'sticky'.

Interesting details: the Duesenberg’s engine was so loud on the grid that all drivers had to literally read the starter’s lips as he was counting in reverse order, before waving the flag. Also, the huge exhaust pipe of the car was frightening for all drivers running behind the Duesenberg because it was the source of long pink-blue flames, according to former local ace Marin Dumitrescu.

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Rear view of the Duesenberg now hosted by the Technical Museum in Bucharest. The yellow thing in the background with an erected steering wheel is a 1920 electric car made by Nürnberger Aktien Gesellschaft.

#29 Mihai

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Posted 15 May 2004 - 07:43

Originally posted by Doug Nye
We always understood that the Rumanian car was one of the two Clemons-engined 'Wonder Bread Special' cars built for Indy circa 1931-32. This was a sister to the Junk Formula car now owned by the Jaguar collector Walt Hill in Florida.
DCN


Farnham’s most illustrious son mentioned the name of Walt(er) Hill. A Google search revealed me that the October 16, 1995 issue of the Auto Week wrote about a vintage racing cars exhibition in Milwaukee, where the honourable Walt Hill took part in a or the Duesenberg Wonder Bread Special. His car is also red, as you can see both him and the car in the picture in the middle of the page. Is it the sister of the Duesenberg in Bucharest ?

Posted Image

The caption says: Walter Hill, jauntily attired in period "helmet" and goggles, explained that his gaily-painted 1933 Duesenberg Wonder Bread Special had spent its career as just a workhorse at Indianapolis.
Read the entire story from:
http://www.leydonres...95/95autwk.html

#30 Doug Nye

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Posted 03 July 2004 - 23:31

Sorry not to notice this before - yes Mihai - as far as I understand the situation, Walt's car is the sister of the Bucharest car - Skinny Clemons and Augie Duesenberg having put together the two Wonderbreads followed by the slender single-seater which went to Trossi/Straight/Duller....Jenks/Brooklands Museum.

DCN

#31 Mihai

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Posted 06 July 2004 - 12:22

Thank you, DCN. Btw you look great in the Nazi Grand Prix documentary on Discovery.

In your first reply to this thread you mentioned Wonder Bread, that intrigued me. What on Earth was this sponsor ? Another Google search revealed me this picture of a Wonder Bread delivery truck in the early 30s. Please notice on the side of the truck that the product advertised there has dots very similar to the design of Joe Russo’s car (pictured above at post #17). You know more about this odd sponsorship ?

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#32 Vitesse2

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Posted 06 July 2004 - 12:45

Indianapolis was the original home of Wonder Bread and the dots are actually meant to represent balloons, which were the inspiration for the trademark:

http://www.wonderbre...m/twenties.html

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#33 Don Capps

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Posted 06 July 2004 - 14:01

And, most importantly, Wonder Bread was one of the sponsors of the Howdy Doody Show for a number of years.....