17 replies to this topic

[Mosquito]

I read quiet a lot of the threads here, but never saw it really explicitly addressed.

Schumacher got the worse of the tire problems. Especially after the first pit stop, he suffered badly. Also, while DC and MH were being held up by Schumacher, Barrichello was pretty quickly able to catch up. In the latter stages, Barrichello looked faster than Schumacher and Schumacher looked like he was loosing more grip the Rubens.

There are a couple of explanations why it seemed Schumacher's tires were giving up quicker then Barrichello's:
- Tire pressure
- Driving style
- Lucking out with a ~bad~ set of tires.

I think that in current Formula 1, tire quallity is very consistent. Whenever a driver speaks about the fact that his xth set of tires didn't work, they usually mean tire pressure. Probably Schumacher's style of driving is much harder on the tires than that of Barrichello's. However, also after his first stop while he knew his tire wear was becoming a big problem, he was not able to keep a quick pace, and preserve the tires at the same time.

David claimed that they were driving with a low wing setting. So, one would expect them to have even more tire wear problems in that case, but it seemed as if the McLarens were not suffering much, if at all, from tire wear. And, the difference under braking at the hairpin between the McLaren and the Ferraris was just awfull.

[tifosi]

I remeber reading sometime last, while Ferrari seemed to be having a string of races with 'tyre problems' that Bridgestone mentioned that Ferrari runs a slightly different spec wheel than everyone else. Evidently, according to Bridgetone, this sometimes effected the fitting of the wheel on the rim. I don't know the exact details. Does anybody else remember this or know if Ferrari is still running a different wheel then the rest of the grid. It seems to me if you have one tyre manufacturer suplying the same tyres to everyone, you better be using the same spec wheels as everyone else.
Whatever the case, Ferrari seems to have more 'ill-fitted' tyres than anyone else

[Billy]

tifosi,

Racefax reported "Michael Schumacher's recurring problem with tires rotating on their rims is said to be because the team has gotten special lightweight wheels from BBS. The lower unsprung weight improves handling, but at the frequent cost of out-of-balance tires after they rotate. And as often as not, they lose air pressure into the bargain, as at Barcelona."

Mosquito,

I believe it is driving style. John Barnard described Schumi's style when he joined Ferrari in 1996 as follows: "I have to say that his driving style is very different to what we are used to. Of course, if he is happy to drive it like that, we are happy to set it up like that. But from what I understand of his driving style, it would require a lot of concentration from the driver to maintain that fine balance. The main difference which we have seen is his way of balancing the car on the throttle ... and that requires concentration. Picking up and getting on the throttle so early in the corner is something you don't often see."

I think Schumi uses more deliberate wheelspin than Rubens, who drives in a more classical style, reliant on front grip. Why else would Schumi select the harder compound tyres at Catalunya and Nurburgring?

[davy boy]

I think the fact that MS was pushing a lot harder than RB probably caused the difference in tyre wear.

[Sudsbouy]

Nice thread, no slagging off, just a rational discussion of the topic.

Something that I've heard about MS's driving is that he can adapt to many different situations. It seems to me that if one style was ruining his tires prematurely, he'd take another approach. These guys do race distances all the time in testing and know their competition very well.

I believe the difference in tire performance is a reflection of a basic weakness of the Ferrari chasis. Ever since Newey got to McLaren, they've been very good on tires. Ferrari has been much more marginal.

I think that MS was just pushing harder to maintain a lead he originally thought would be relatively safe (remember it was a Ferrari one-two off the start). In the current F1 to have someone enough of a performance margin to come up an pass you isn't common, especially with Ferrari and McLaren this year.

Thank you.

[Todd]

I found this comparison of Schumacher's first and second set of tires. By looking at his pace during the early laps on the tires, you can get an idea of the effectiveness of the tires before wear became an issue.

Originally posted by Dimitri:
Buzz et al,

Here are MS's lap times from lap 2 til lap 11 (10 laps) and the 10 laps following his 1st stop:

1st stint - 2nd stint

1:20.117 - 1:20.286
1:19.765 - 1:20.412
1:19.656 - 1:20.821
1:20.256 - 1:20.885
1:20.450 - 1:21.313
1:20.621 - 1:21.205
1:20.495 - 1:21.697
1:20.378 - 1:21.580
1:20.332 - 1:21.967
1:20.944 - 1:21.267

Average lap time in 1st stint: 1:20.301
Average lap time in 2nd stint: 1:21.143

These numbers clearly show that there was a definite problem with MS's 2nd set of tyres as he was running almost 1 second a lap slower from his 1st set.

As you can see, the first set of tires was superior to the second. Schumacher's first set went off several laps before his pit stop. Is it possible that Michael and his engineer tried to compensate for the unexpected wear by making an incorrect air pressure adjustment on the second set? Other possibilities are related to the fluids his car was leaking by this point of the race. He could have slowed because various mechanical components were less than perfect or because he was dumping fluids on his rear tires.

[molive]

Why can´t you MS fans admit MS for once was plainly slower, off-the-pace, a moving chicane? Why keep searching for answers, like Tire problems, oil leaks, etc?. MS got beat by DC, was slower than MH and RB in the second part of the race, period.

[goGoGene]

Molive, face it, we can admit that Mika can be a bit off the pace. Schumie fans will always find a tire, or rim, or steering wheel, to blame. I don't know why, but that's the way it is. Oh, also, if Mika or DC wins the WDC, it's the car, if MS wins, it because he's the best.

Remember, MS always wins...unless his Ferrari loses.

ggg

Oh, and you can only compare MS to dead drivers, the living are just not good enough. Prost is the one exception, but his name doesn't come up that much.

[Smooth]

Originally posted by molive
Why can´t you MS fans admit MS for once was plainly slower, off-the-pace, a moving chicane? Why keep searching for answers, like Tire problems, oil leaks, etc?. MS got beat by DC, was slower than MH and RB in the second part of the race, period.

As soon as you can tell give us a realistic reason for Rubens performances.;) I guess MS was off the pace, what with a blown engine it is hard to get around! If not mechanical, tires, or something, how was it that MS was 2 seconds a lap slower than DC? DC looked good, MS looked mediocre, and probably hurt himself with his setup, but it wasn't all down to driving, Molive. I wish life were so black and white....

[The RedBaron]

You'll both be eating humble pie come Malalysia GP

A battle was lost but not the war!!

[goGoGene]

Bring it on baby! I want to see a good fight for the WDC!

ggg

[Clatter]

You have to remember that DC had been fastest all weekend when he had a car that was working. The only reason he didnt get pole was because his car had failed again and he had to take the spare which was setup for MH. He tried a bit to hard on first attempt and spun, but was already 1/10th up in the first sector, so would likely have been well ahead by the end of the lap. He had to make sure of a time on the last run so didnt commit as much as he would have done had he already had a time in the bag. So it was no surprise to me that he was faster than MS in the race.

[Jecko]

Well molive,

The reason that there is this discussion going on is that MS was clearly quick on his first set of tires and much slower on his second.

If his pace was slow throughout the whole race then you could have an argument about him being crap and RB being God. But maybe we will have to hold your hand and walk you through the reasoning of how a driver just doesn't become crappy after his first set of pit stops.

[tifosi]

Sudsboy.

See, it didn't take long for people like molive and goggene to find this thread and start yet another slagging war. The possibility of having an intelligent conversation on this BB without becoming an 'MS sucks-MS is god' match is about as high as Minardi winning the WCC this year.

[GoAlesi]

I was quite surprised to see Schumacher struggling with tyre wear given that the teams tested extensively at Magny-Cours after the Canadian GP.

I guess they may have been caught out by the high track temperature on race day.

[molive]

Tifosi, Todd, et al.

I´m sorry, next time I post something sarcastic I´ll have to remember posting a smiley so that you can get it, ok?

My intention (and I believe GGG´s too) was not to screw-up the thread, but to show you how annoying it can be when you´re discussing why and how your favourite driver has failed and people say you´re just trying to find excuses...got it now?;)

[Ray Bell]

Such frustration... wading through the slag... and it did start out so well.
Possibly there was a minor setup variation with the cars, but apart from that I would say that driving style was the cause.

[tifosi]

molive,

I don't mind the sarcastic comments or even some slagging, however as was pointed out by sudsbouy, this was actually an intelligent converstation that had nothing to do with any particular drivers or excuses or 'my-driver-is-better-than-yours' stuff. It was about tyre wear on the cars. As was pointed out VERY early in the thread, Bridgestone stated last year that there was a difference in the Ferrari wheels (has NOTHING to with the drivers), that causes mounting problems sometimes.
Yes, some drivers styles wear tyres harder than others, but I don't think this problem has anything to do with that. This is a problem between the wheel and the tyre that Ferrari needs to get fixed since evidently it has been going on for at least two years, as stated by Bridgestone. Remember all the tyres are the same except for manufacturing variances and compounds. All the tyres are mounted by Bridgestone technicians for all teams. You expect the occaisional error but Ferrari has had so many problems with tyres that it is obvious that there is a problem. And I will be the first to admit that Schumacjer's driving style and type of set-up, i.e. very stiff and responsive, leads to excess tyre wear, but there is a lot more to it than that what with tyre spinning on the rims and all. That is something Ferrari need to fix.

BTW molive, I will also be the first one cheering when Reuban's wins his first of I hope many Grands Prix with the Scuderia, hopefully these early problems are just teething problems and he will develop into a WDC.