As far as I am aware there has been no detailed biography about Louis Chiron or an autobiography. This is a pity because his racing career stretched from the Twenties to the Fifties and by all accounts he had an opinion about most things, and people. Are there any plans for a biography?
The impression I have is that he was a very guarded individual with regard to his private life but basked in the limelight when at the ( motor ) races. Rightly or wrongly I also get the impression that he was not particularly popular with fellow drivers. Can anybody recommend any revealing articles? Apologises if this has been widely debated already on TNF.
Louis Chiron
Started by
humphries
, Feb 03 2004 00:16
69 replies to this topic
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#2
Hans Etzrodt
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Posted 03 February 2004 - 01:32
I had written the following for 8W some years back. It is about Chiron and the 1934 French Grand Prix:
Louis Chiron made one of his famous take offs at the 1934 French Grand Prix from the third row as he had jumped the start. He had passed Caracciola, Momberger, Varzi and Stuck ahead of him and at the fall of the flag he was in the lead. Try to repeat that now, 66 years later!
Louis Chiron’s grandfather had a winery in the Provence and occasionally the winegrower Chiron drove with his son to Monte Carlo to sell his good wine to the fine hotels at the Riviera. This son, the father of the racing driver, was impressed and attracted by the world of luxury and moved to Monte Carlo to work in a hotel. He started at the bottom, worked his way up in the hotel industry, went to London and Germany to further his education and finally became Maître d’ at the very elegant Hotel de Paris in Monaco.
Louis Alexandre Chiron was born on 3. August 1899 in Monte Carlo in the Principality of Monaco. Since his father was still a French citizen, Louis also had the right to French citizenship. At the age of 15 and as son of the Maître d’, Louis began as bellboy, clerk and jack-of-all-trades. At the onset of the Great War in 1914 his father was drafted. His mother had died early and a Russian princess now took him into her Villa in Monte Carlo. Not only did he work there as a servant but he also learned languages, was taught conversation and etiquette and with 16 the chauffeur gave Louis driving lessons. Eventually the princess drove only with Louis, who stayed with her until after he became 18.
He was Monaco citizen and as such did not have to join the French army, but on 18. January 1918, at the end of the Great War, Louis Chiron voluntary joined and was serving in the 85th Artillery regiment in Dijon. His driving talent was soon recognized and he was sent to the army headquarter where he was driver for Marshall Petain and Marshall Foch, the highest officers in the general staff. After the end of the war he stayed on with the French Army for three years. At that time the army sold their surplus cars and Louis had the right connections as middleman. At headquarters he had also become acquainted with an Englishman, Captain William Grover, the later racing driver, with whom he started their trade with surplus cars at the Riviera in Nice.
Ernest Friderich, a former co-worker, racing driver and friend of Ettore Bugatti, had established a Bugatti dealership 1923 in Nice and brought Louis in contact with Bugatti. When the surplus auto trade had come to an end, the Bugatti factory employed Chiron as driver to transfer new cars on road from Molsheim to Nice. Louis had to do a lot of driving all year long because many Bugattis were sold at the Riviera. Consequently, Chiron perfected his driving skills and later bought a 1500cc Bugatti Brescia from Ernest Friderich. Louis was also employed as a dancer, a respectable job, at the Hotel de Paris where his father was Maître d’. There he met an American lady who sponsored his early driving. He participated at several mountain climbs organized by the Moto Club de Nice and according to W.F. Bradley he did so as early as 1923. Chiron’s first win came at the Barbonnet Mountain Climb, with a Bugatti in November 1924. From 1926 on, he changed to a Type 35 and started to make a name for himself. Like most drivers he began as privateer but from the 1927 British Grand Prix on he drove for the Bugatti factory till the end of 1932 after he had brought numerous victories to Molsheim. Although he had driven many other makes later on, no driver was so closely connected with Bugatti as Louis Chiron. In 1933, Chiron formed a private team with his friend Caracciola, when they purchased two Alfas and the following year he drove a factory Alfa Romeo for the Scuderia Ferrari.
The 1934 French Grand Prix has been retold innumerable times for several reasons. It was still considered the most important event of the season. Then it was a race everybody had been looking forward to, since it was the first major clash of the new 750 kg formula cars with all factory teams finally present. The new German cars from Mercedes-Benz and Auto Union were facing the full might of the already established opponents Alfa Romeo, Bugatti and Maserati. The Type B Alfa Romeos came with 2.9-liter, 8-cylinder engines, delivering 255 hp at 5400 rpm. The Bugatti T59 had a 3.3-liter, 8-cylinder engine producing 240 hp at 5400 rpm and the Maserati 6C-34 had a 3.7-liter, 6-cylinder engine generating 260 hp at 5300 rpm. Against these proven cars, which had already won several races, were pitched the new designs from Germany. Daimler-Benz had already a very long history in racing. After committing themselves for years to sports car racing, which was very popular in Germany, they designed a new grand prix car. Their Mercedes-Benz W25 came with a 3.4-liter, 8-cylinder engine, delivering 354 hp at 5800 rpm. Not just produced it almost 100 hp more than the foreign opposition, but all wheels where independently suspended, the new way to go. The other German car came from Auto Union and was a revolutionary, strange looking machine. In the back, between driver and rear axle was its 4.4-liter, V16-cylinder engine, producing 295 hp at a low 4500 rpm. The car also had independent suspension all around. What was also of importance was the fact that the newly established Nazi Government subsidized both German teams and the factories had bigger budgets for their racing departments than their opposition. The French government had tried a similar route with the SEFAC car, which was entered here for the first time with Raymond Sommer as the nominated driver. But the car did not appear and for many reasons this project was condemned to failure.
The fastest cars and drivers of the day were to fight over 40 laps on the 12.500 km long ten-year-old Montlhéry circuit, a total of exactly 500 km. The entry consisted of 16 cars, but since three of them did not make the start, only 13 drivers lined up on the starting grid, which was arranged by ballot. The teams drew lots and then the team managers usually assigned their best drivers to the front positions. This old-fashioned arrangement was still customary in 1934 but already in previous year’s Monaco GP, for the first time, the starting line-up had been arranged according to practice times. Not until 1935 would the headstrong A.C.F. yield to this new practice and drop their old grid arrangement by ballot.
On the first day in July, a blazing hot day, an estimated large crowd of 80,000 lined the Montlhéry circuit and the main grandstand was filled for the first time. At two o’clock Louis Chiron made probably one of his most famous jumpstarts at this 1934 French Grand Prix from the third row. He blatantly passed Caracciola, Momberger, Varzi and Stuck ahead of him and exactly at the fall of the flag he had snatched the lead. He held first place until lap four when Stuck’s Auto Union passed him. The German led Chiron’s Alfa by 4,5 seconds, followed by Fagioli and Caracciola, both on the new Mercedes-Benz. This was Caracciola’s first race appearance since his crash at Monaco in 1933 where he had received severe injuries to his leg. Stuck led the French Grand Prix till lap ten, closely followed by Chiron’s Alfa, then Caracciola and Fagioli both on Mercedes. Stuck then had to stop at the pits for fuel, tires and oil. That gave the lead back to Chiron, who established the fastest lap in 5m06s at 91.4 mph on lap 15. Varzi’s Alfa Romeo was in second place, 1m18s behind with Hans Stuck third, 5m22s behind Chiron. By that time all German cars except Stuck’s Auto Union were out of the race. The first to go had been Momberger’s Auto Union after ten laps with broken shockabsorber, then von Brauchitsch the next lap with supercharger problems, followed after lap 14 by Fagioli with brake hose problems. Caracciola then retired the last Mercedes-Benz on lap 15 with transmission problems. At halftime by lap 20, Moll passed Stuck’s Auto Union and Alfa Romeo now occupied the first three places. On lap 31, Stuck had stopped to have his water leak attended to. But the water pump was leaking so badly, that he parked the car on the following lap. Zehender’s Maserati was next to retire on lap 33, whereas Étancelin’s private Maserati had already disappeared after 11 laps. By that time most Bugattis were also gone; Dreyfus after 16 laps with supercharger problems and the Nuvolari/Wimille car was out after 17 laps with gearbox problems.
After 3h39m14.6s, Chiron finished first, which was one of his greatest victories. The predominantly French crowd enthusiastically applauded their French Louis Chiron who won ahead of Varzi and Moll who shared Trossi’s car. It was also the most overwhelming triumph of the Alfa Romeo B-Type’s, the only official finishers. Robert Benoist in fourth place, already four laps behind in the misfiring Bugatti, was flagged off and did not count as finisher. On his last lap, not seen by the officials, Benoist had taken a short cut in the countryside of the circuit, which caused the timekeepers some confusion, as his last lap was unbelievably good. The speed of the new German cars had astonished everyone, although they had not yet shown the stamina needed for a long battle.
Louis Chiron made one of his famous take offs at the 1934 French Grand Prix from the third row as he had jumped the start. He had passed Caracciola, Momberger, Varzi and Stuck ahead of him and at the fall of the flag he was in the lead. Try to repeat that now, 66 years later!
Louis Chiron’s grandfather had a winery in the Provence and occasionally the winegrower Chiron drove with his son to Monte Carlo to sell his good wine to the fine hotels at the Riviera. This son, the father of the racing driver, was impressed and attracted by the world of luxury and moved to Monte Carlo to work in a hotel. He started at the bottom, worked his way up in the hotel industry, went to London and Germany to further his education and finally became Maître d’ at the very elegant Hotel de Paris in Monaco.
Louis Alexandre Chiron was born on 3. August 1899 in Monte Carlo in the Principality of Monaco. Since his father was still a French citizen, Louis also had the right to French citizenship. At the age of 15 and as son of the Maître d’, Louis began as bellboy, clerk and jack-of-all-trades. At the onset of the Great War in 1914 his father was drafted. His mother had died early and a Russian princess now took him into her Villa in Monte Carlo. Not only did he work there as a servant but he also learned languages, was taught conversation and etiquette and with 16 the chauffeur gave Louis driving lessons. Eventually the princess drove only with Louis, who stayed with her until after he became 18.
He was Monaco citizen and as such did not have to join the French army, but on 18. January 1918, at the end of the Great War, Louis Chiron voluntary joined and was serving in the 85th Artillery regiment in Dijon. His driving talent was soon recognized and he was sent to the army headquarter where he was driver for Marshall Petain and Marshall Foch, the highest officers in the general staff. After the end of the war he stayed on with the French Army for three years. At that time the army sold their surplus cars and Louis had the right connections as middleman. At headquarters he had also become acquainted with an Englishman, Captain William Grover, the later racing driver, with whom he started their trade with surplus cars at the Riviera in Nice.
Ernest Friderich, a former co-worker, racing driver and friend of Ettore Bugatti, had established a Bugatti dealership 1923 in Nice and brought Louis in contact with Bugatti. When the surplus auto trade had come to an end, the Bugatti factory employed Chiron as driver to transfer new cars on road from Molsheim to Nice. Louis had to do a lot of driving all year long because many Bugattis were sold at the Riviera. Consequently, Chiron perfected his driving skills and later bought a 1500cc Bugatti Brescia from Ernest Friderich. Louis was also employed as a dancer, a respectable job, at the Hotel de Paris where his father was Maître d’. There he met an American lady who sponsored his early driving. He participated at several mountain climbs organized by the Moto Club de Nice and according to W.F. Bradley he did so as early as 1923. Chiron’s first win came at the Barbonnet Mountain Climb, with a Bugatti in November 1924. From 1926 on, he changed to a Type 35 and started to make a name for himself. Like most drivers he began as privateer but from the 1927 British Grand Prix on he drove for the Bugatti factory till the end of 1932 after he had brought numerous victories to Molsheim. Although he had driven many other makes later on, no driver was so closely connected with Bugatti as Louis Chiron. In 1933, Chiron formed a private team with his friend Caracciola, when they purchased two Alfas and the following year he drove a factory Alfa Romeo for the Scuderia Ferrari.
The 1934 French Grand Prix has been retold innumerable times for several reasons. It was still considered the most important event of the season. Then it was a race everybody had been looking forward to, since it was the first major clash of the new 750 kg formula cars with all factory teams finally present. The new German cars from Mercedes-Benz and Auto Union were facing the full might of the already established opponents Alfa Romeo, Bugatti and Maserati. The Type B Alfa Romeos came with 2.9-liter, 8-cylinder engines, delivering 255 hp at 5400 rpm. The Bugatti T59 had a 3.3-liter, 8-cylinder engine producing 240 hp at 5400 rpm and the Maserati 6C-34 had a 3.7-liter, 6-cylinder engine generating 260 hp at 5300 rpm. Against these proven cars, which had already won several races, were pitched the new designs from Germany. Daimler-Benz had already a very long history in racing. After committing themselves for years to sports car racing, which was very popular in Germany, they designed a new grand prix car. Their Mercedes-Benz W25 came with a 3.4-liter, 8-cylinder engine, delivering 354 hp at 5800 rpm. Not just produced it almost 100 hp more than the foreign opposition, but all wheels where independently suspended, the new way to go. The other German car came from Auto Union and was a revolutionary, strange looking machine. In the back, between driver and rear axle was its 4.4-liter, V16-cylinder engine, producing 295 hp at a low 4500 rpm. The car also had independent suspension all around. What was also of importance was the fact that the newly established Nazi Government subsidized both German teams and the factories had bigger budgets for their racing departments than their opposition. The French government had tried a similar route with the SEFAC car, which was entered here for the first time with Raymond Sommer as the nominated driver. But the car did not appear and for many reasons this project was condemned to failure.
The fastest cars and drivers of the day were to fight over 40 laps on the 12.500 km long ten-year-old Montlhéry circuit, a total of exactly 500 km. The entry consisted of 16 cars, but since three of them did not make the start, only 13 drivers lined up on the starting grid, which was arranged by ballot. The teams drew lots and then the team managers usually assigned their best drivers to the front positions. This old-fashioned arrangement was still customary in 1934 but already in previous year’s Monaco GP, for the first time, the starting line-up had been arranged according to practice times. Not until 1935 would the headstrong A.C.F. yield to this new practice and drop their old grid arrangement by ballot.
On the first day in July, a blazing hot day, an estimated large crowd of 80,000 lined the Montlhéry circuit and the main grandstand was filled for the first time. At two o’clock Louis Chiron made probably one of his most famous jumpstarts at this 1934 French Grand Prix from the third row. He blatantly passed Caracciola, Momberger, Varzi and Stuck ahead of him and exactly at the fall of the flag he had snatched the lead. He held first place until lap four when Stuck’s Auto Union passed him. The German led Chiron’s Alfa by 4,5 seconds, followed by Fagioli and Caracciola, both on the new Mercedes-Benz. This was Caracciola’s first race appearance since his crash at Monaco in 1933 where he had received severe injuries to his leg. Stuck led the French Grand Prix till lap ten, closely followed by Chiron’s Alfa, then Caracciola and Fagioli both on Mercedes. Stuck then had to stop at the pits for fuel, tires and oil. That gave the lead back to Chiron, who established the fastest lap in 5m06s at 91.4 mph on lap 15. Varzi’s Alfa Romeo was in second place, 1m18s behind with Hans Stuck third, 5m22s behind Chiron. By that time all German cars except Stuck’s Auto Union were out of the race. The first to go had been Momberger’s Auto Union after ten laps with broken shockabsorber, then von Brauchitsch the next lap with supercharger problems, followed after lap 14 by Fagioli with brake hose problems. Caracciola then retired the last Mercedes-Benz on lap 15 with transmission problems. At halftime by lap 20, Moll passed Stuck’s Auto Union and Alfa Romeo now occupied the first three places. On lap 31, Stuck had stopped to have his water leak attended to. But the water pump was leaking so badly, that he parked the car on the following lap. Zehender’s Maserati was next to retire on lap 33, whereas Étancelin’s private Maserati had already disappeared after 11 laps. By that time most Bugattis were also gone; Dreyfus after 16 laps with supercharger problems and the Nuvolari/Wimille car was out after 17 laps with gearbox problems.
After 3h39m14.6s, Chiron finished first, which was one of his greatest victories. The predominantly French crowd enthusiastically applauded their French Louis Chiron who won ahead of Varzi and Moll who shared Trossi’s car. It was also the most overwhelming triumph of the Alfa Romeo B-Type’s, the only official finishers. Robert Benoist in fourth place, already four laps behind in the misfiring Bugatti, was flagged off and did not count as finisher. On his last lap, not seen by the officials, Benoist had taken a short cut in the countryside of the circuit, which caused the timekeepers some confusion, as his last lap was unbelievably good. The speed of the new German cars had astonished everyone, although they had not yet shown the stamina needed for a long battle.
#3
humphries
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Posted 03 February 2004 - 09:40
Hans et al
Do you know anything about the Russian princess or the wealthy lady from America who sponsored him? Sounds like something from a romantic novel.
What was his relationship with Caracciola like after Baby Hoffmann left Chiron to marry Rudi? Did the former friends eventually come to terms with the upset?
Does anybody know any details of the allegations he made about "Helle-Nice" and her situation during the occupation? I appreciate the occupation is still a delicate subject in France even after all these years.
Also the name Louis Alexandre appears in a few race and hill-climb stats. Is this Chiron? Was the mame a pseudonym, simply a mistake by the compiler of the programme or another person?
Do you know anything about the Russian princess or the wealthy lady from America who sponsored him? Sounds like something from a romantic novel.
What was his relationship with Caracciola like after Baby Hoffmann left Chiron to marry Rudi? Did the former friends eventually come to terms with the upset?
Does anybody know any details of the allegations he made about "Helle-Nice" and her situation during the occupation? I appreciate the occupation is still a delicate subject in France even after all these years.
Also the name Louis Alexandre appears in a few race and hill-climb stats. Is this Chiron? Was the mame a pseudonym, simply a mistake by the compiler of the programme or another person?
#4
Ray Bell
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Posted 03 February 2004 - 13:19
I think Caratsch and Chiron remained friends... Chiron went on to drive for Mercedes-Benz after all.
I posted recently about another factor... the hatred that his family and probably a lot of the French felt for him when he went to drive for the German team.
I posted recently about another factor... the hatred that his family and probably a lot of the French felt for him when he went to drive for the German team.
#5
Pils1989
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Posted 03 February 2004 - 13:52
Hi,
I have a picture of him with Andre Pilette at the 61' Italian Grand Prix:
I have a picture of him with Andre Pilette at the 61' Italian Grand Prix:
#6
alessandro silva
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Posted 03 February 2004 - 16:09
During WWI Chiron was dancer-for-hire at tea-time dances at the hotel de Paris in Montecarlo where his father was Maitre d' hotel. The Russian duchess Athanasie Michelowna (French spelling) was a cousin of the tsar. She took Chiron at her service, had him pass his driving permit and hired Chiron as chauffeur.Originally posted by humphries
Hans et al
Do you know anything about the Russian princess or the wealthy lady from America who sponsored him? Sounds like something from a romantic novel.
Rich American Ladies there were more than one.
Originally posted by humphries
Also the name Louis Alexandre appears in a few race and hill-climb stats. Is this Chiron? Was the mame a pseudonym, simply a mistake by the compiler of the programme or another person?
Yes, that's him. Alexandre was his middle name.
Originally posted by humphries
Does anybody know any details of the allegations he made about "Helle-Nice" and her situation during the occupation? I appreciate the occupation is still a delicate subject in France even after all these years.
Ms. Seymour wrote to me while working on the Hellé Nice book - almost exactly one year ago - about this incident since she had read a biographical sketch of mine about Mme Itier who was Hellé's codriver at the Montecarlo Rallye in 1949. I never heard of it but offered to do some research for her while in Paris for my real life-life job. I couldn't find a thing. I think that she left the incident as doubtful whereas your sentence seems to imply the the incident actually took place. So let's be careful.
#7
humphries
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Posted 03 February 2004 - 17:01
As luck would have it I was passing my local bookshop this afternoon and so I popped in to see what was in the sports section. Usually it is stocked with books on football, cricket, football, golf and football. The motor-racing books are usually just pot-boilers. To my surprise The Bugatti Queen was on the shelves and was immediately purchased!
#8
Hans Etzrodt
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Posted 03 February 2004 - 22:47
John, what's hidden behind the title The Bugatti Queen? I already have a few Bugatti books. So, what is the contents all about? Do you consider this book an aid for research and if so, why?Originally posted by humphries
...The Bugatti Queen was on the shelves and was immediately purchased!
#9
Doug Nye
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Posted 03 February 2004 - 22:53
Hans - it's a detailed biography of Helle-Nice being much-hyped and exceptionally heavily promoted here in the UK at the moment. It promises to be quite good but the copy I ordered has not yet arrived so I can't tell whether this is correct or not.
Repeat 'The Bugatti Queen' is about Helle-Nice - not about Louis Chiron....
DCN
Repeat 'The Bugatti Queen' is about Helle-Nice - not about Louis Chiron....
DCN
#10
marat
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Posted 04 February 2004 - 06:08
Perhaps the next biography of Isadora Duncan will be titled "The Amilcar Queen"...
#11
Ron Scoma
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Posted 04 February 2004 - 06:59
Originally posted by marat
Perhaps the next biography of Isadora Duncan will be titled "The Amilcar Queen"...
And what would the biography of Robert Cowells be titled..... what did he drive?
Sorry,
Ron
#12
Rob29
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Posted 04 February 2004 - 09:36
My copy arrived yesterday.Worth having for the photos alone. Have only read the first 2 chapters so far,so can't comment on her relationship with Chiron but wonderful insight into spectating at the 1903 Paris-Madrid,which she apparently attended age 2 ,1/2!!Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
John, what's hidden behind the title The Bugatti Queen? I already have a few Bugatti books. So, what is the contents all about? Do you consider this book an aid for research and if so, why?
#13
Holger Merten
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Posted 04 February 2004 - 10:33
Chiron and Auto Union:
And without my sources…
After the dead of Rosemeyer Auto Union tried to go forward with the development of the Typ D. Without Rosemeyer and Stuck, who was fired out of the team, there was no super professional driver for test drives. Von Delius, Müller and Hasse were less or more cadets. And they were unable to bring up better results for test-drives to improve the car. They said, that they couldn’t handle the Typ D.
Therefore teammanager Dr. Feuereissen invited Louis Chiron (and Hans Stuck) for testdrives at the Nürburgring. While Chiron wasn’t able to get better results than the “trainees”, Stuck made a top round around the “Betonschleife” and showed the team, the potentials of the car (and the driver).
Perhaps the reason, why Chiron couldn't get teammember, and maybe a secret testdrive for Chiron by AU.
And without my sources…
After the dead of Rosemeyer Auto Union tried to go forward with the development of the Typ D. Without Rosemeyer and Stuck, who was fired out of the team, there was no super professional driver for test drives. Von Delius, Müller and Hasse were less or more cadets. And they were unable to bring up better results for test-drives to improve the car. They said, that they couldn’t handle the Typ D.
Therefore teammanager Dr. Feuereissen invited Louis Chiron (and Hans Stuck) for testdrives at the Nürburgring. While Chiron wasn’t able to get better results than the “trainees”, Stuck made a top round around the “Betonschleife” and showed the team, the potentials of the car (and the driver).
Perhaps the reason, why Chiron couldn't get teammember, and maybe a secret testdrive for Chiron by AU.
#14
humphries
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Posted 04 February 2004 - 11:39
Hans et al
For me the are one of two reasons for buying a book on motor-racing. Often I want the plain boring old facts, the statistics about the competition, the details of cars etc. To supplement these I buy books that put flesh on the individuals involved in motor-racing. Very occasionally you can buy a book that is good on both counts. The Bugatti Queen is not a detailed "facts" book but it is factually O.K. even for a nit-picker like me. Didn't know it was Benoit Falchetto who was driving the Bugatti that garrotted Isadora Duncan.The book is a well-written, absorbing account of a "full" life which embraces many characters involved in motor-racing. For me a "good" buy.
The references to Chiron do little to change my opinion of him. With the knowledge I have he is not someone I would have liked.
As I said it is a great pity that a detailed, impartial book is not available about the man, as he was for many years a very successful driver.
One thing I do not understand about him is why he thought he should spend the war in Switzerland. Yes, Caracciola was there. Although Rudi did very nicely "thank you" living in Germany and driving for Mercedes-Benz, his decision not to fight or work for his country can be excused if he really believed Hitler was evil personified. But Chiron?
Did he take to arms at the beginning of the war to defend his country? Was he involved in resistance activities providing escape routes into Switzerland? Did he join the Free French Army? Why didn't he simply endure the occupation like most of his countryman?
A number of famous British people spent the war safe in America and were castigated by the public for doing so. Did Chiron receive the same criticism?
An in-depth biography is needed. Perhaps the reason one has not been written in the past is because of what my grannie used to say "If you can't say anything good about anybody, say nothing."? In a way I hope this is not the case.
John
For me the are one of two reasons for buying a book on motor-racing. Often I want the plain boring old facts, the statistics about the competition, the details of cars etc. To supplement these I buy books that put flesh on the individuals involved in motor-racing. Very occasionally you can buy a book that is good on both counts. The Bugatti Queen is not a detailed "facts" book but it is factually O.K. even for a nit-picker like me. Didn't know it was Benoit Falchetto who was driving the Bugatti that garrotted Isadora Duncan.The book is a well-written, absorbing account of a "full" life which embraces many characters involved in motor-racing. For me a "good" buy.
The references to Chiron do little to change my opinion of him. With the knowledge I have he is not someone I would have liked.
As I said it is a great pity that a detailed, impartial book is not available about the man, as he was for many years a very successful driver.
One thing I do not understand about him is why he thought he should spend the war in Switzerland. Yes, Caracciola was there. Although Rudi did very nicely "thank you" living in Germany and driving for Mercedes-Benz, his decision not to fight or work for his country can be excused if he really believed Hitler was evil personified. But Chiron?
Did he take to arms at the beginning of the war to defend his country? Was he involved in resistance activities providing escape routes into Switzerland? Did he join the Free French Army? Why didn't he simply endure the occupation like most of his countryman?
A number of famous British people spent the war safe in America and were castigated by the public for doing so. Did Chiron receive the same criticism?
An in-depth biography is needed. Perhaps the reason one has not been written in the past is because of what my grannie used to say "If you can't say anything good about anybody, say nothing."? In a way I hope this is not the case.
John
#15
David McKinney
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Posted 04 February 2004 - 12:10
If - as has been claimed (by Hans Tanner at least) - Chiron was once Marshal Pétain's chauffeur, might he nt have been associated with him again in a later period? Which would be as good a reason as any for keeping quiet about his wrtime activities, I would have thought.
#16
David McKinney
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Posted 04 February 2004 - 12:12
Originally posted by Ron Scoma
And what would the biography of Robert Cowells be titled..... what did he drive?
Sorry,
Ron
Disappointingly, the Alta driver's biography is entitled Roberta Cowell's Story
#17
alessandro silva
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Posted 04 February 2004 - 12:35
Originally posted by humphries
Did he take to arms at the beginning of the war to defend his country? Was he involved in resistance activities providing escape routes into Switzerland? Did he join the Free French Army? Why didn't he simply endure the occupation like most of his countryman?
John
Do not forget that Chiron was not French, though his father was. He held also a French citizenship, but his papers were Monegasques. For instance he was not allowed to score points for the National French Championships in the postwar years.
A Monaco passport and a Swiss residence were the best possible situation during WWII. His wife Didi was Swiss as well.
It is said that he contributed to the smuggling of escaped allied prisoners throgh Switzerland onto Southern France and Spain while living in Switzerland, but who knows.
#18
Vitesse2
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Posted 04 February 2004 - 13:48
Originally posted by humphries
Didn't know it was Benoit Falchetto who was driving the Bugatti that garrotted Isadora Duncan.
John
Oh yes, it was definitely Falchetto. However, it may not have been a Bugatti, John:
http://forums.atlasf...=&threadid=9925
#19
humphries
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Posted 04 February 2004 - 19:18
V2
A most interesting thread. Ms Seymour has done her homework and in her notes she opts for Amilcar but I did recognise a few TNF names in the Acknowledgements, which is reassuring and may explain her choice.
Isadora Duncan was of little interest to me but the "Helle-Nice" book makes you realise that the rich and famous, a relatively small world, included a lot of racing drivers in those days.
A most interesting thread. Ms Seymour has done her homework and in her notes she opts for Amilcar but I did recognise a few TNF names in the Acknowledgements, which is reassuring and may explain her choice.
Isadora Duncan was of little interest to me but the "Helle-Nice" book makes you realise that the rich and famous, a relatively small world, included a lot of racing drivers in those days.
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#20
Jonas
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Posted 04 February 2004 - 20:12
Well, a good reason why von Delius didn't put up any good results with the D-Type in 1938 would be that he died after an accident on the 'Ring already the year before....Originally posted by Holger Merten
After the dead of Rosemeyer... Von Delius... were less or more cadets. And they were unable to bring up better results for test-drives to improve the car. They said, that they couldn’t handle the Typ D..
Sorry Holger, I just couldn't resist pointing out that little detail, insignificant as it may be..
#21
Vitesse2
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Posted 04 February 2004 - 21:49
Chiron's short bio in Georgano says it was Foch, not Pétain.Originally posted by David McKinney
If - as has been claimed (by Hans Tanner at least) - Chiron was once Marshal Pétain's chauffeur,
#22
David McKinney
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Posted 04 February 2004 - 22:25
Ah - that's a relief
#23
Ray Bell
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Posted 04 February 2004 - 22:29
Originally posted by humphries
.....The references to Chiron do little to change my opinion of him. With the knowledge I have he is not someone I would have liked.....
Nor did his family like him, it seems...
.....One thing I do not understand about him is why he thought he should spend the war in Switzerland. Yes, Caracciola was there. Although Rudi did very nicely "thank you" living in Germany and driving for Mercedes-Benz, his decision not to fight or work for his country can be excused if he really believed Hitler was evil personified. But Chiron?
Did he take to arms at the beginning of the war to defend his country? Was he involved in resistance activities providing escape routes into Switzerland? Did he join the Free French Army? Why didn't he simply endure the occupation like most of his countryman?
A number of famous British people spent the war safe in America and were castigated by the public for doing so. Did Chiron receive the same criticism?
Yeah, this is what I'm getting at...
Driving for the despised Germans, first of all M-B, and if he also tested for A-U that adds to the tale. I know it's just my assumption, but Dennis barely knows anything about his famous uncle... merely that he was a racing driver and that the family had nothing to do with him.
#24
Vitesse2
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Posted 04 February 2004 - 22:48
I've seen references in the British racing press to calls from French enthusiasts for Chiron to be stripped of his Légion d'Honneur due to his connections with Germany. I can't remember whether these were pre- or post-war though!Originally posted by humphries
A number of famous British people spent the war safe in America and were castigated by the public for doing so. Did Chiron receive the same criticism?
John
Interestingly, and perhaps tellingly, Chiron disappears from Caracciola's autobiography at the point where Baby appears. Afterwards he is mentioned just once in passing and there is nothing about him being in Switzerland during the war although Caratsch tells us a lot about his meetings there with Peter de Paolo.
#25
Tim Murray
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Posted 04 February 2004 - 23:26
Originally posted by David McKinney
If - as has been claimed (by Hans Tanner at least) - Chiron was once Marshal Pétain's chauffeur
As Hans has already pointed out in this thread, he chauffeured them both.Originally posted by Vitesse2
Chiron's short bio in Georgano says it was Foch, not Pétain.
Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
. . . where he was driver for Marshal Pétain and Marshal Foch . . .
#26
Holger Merten
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Posted 05 February 2004 - 07:59
Originally posted by Jonas
Well, a good reason why von Delius didn't put up any good results with the D-Type in 1938 would be that he died after an accident on the 'Ring already the year before....
Sorry Holger, I just couldn't resist pointing out that little detail, insignificant as it may be..
Sometimes I hope it couldn't be true that so many AU teammembers died.
#27
Holger Merten
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Posted 05 February 2004 - 12:36
Originally posted by Jonas
Well, a good reason why von Delius didn't put up any good results with the D-Type in 1938 would be that he died after an accident on the 'Ring already the year before....
Sorry Holger, I just couldn't resist pointing out that little detail, insignificant as it may be..
Jonas, I post this reminder here. And will try to get it on ebay. A nice one, from1938.
#28
marat
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Posted 05 February 2004 - 22:08
I have actually little time to check the various stories about Chiron.
Evidence is that Chiron was chauffeur at general Pétain's headquarter. I doubt he was
the entitled chauffeur of Pétain. Foch was not at the same place that Pétain so Chiron could
not drive both of them. Christian Moity wrote that he transported the mail between the
front line and Pétain's headquarter.
The Légion d'Honneur: Chiron was Officer of the Légion d'Honneur.
WWII: Chiron joigned again the french army in september 1939 and was released after the
debacle in june 1940.
Switzerland: Abeillon adds that he met Edith Bitter and got married to her.
Evidence is that Chiron was chauffeur at general Pétain's headquarter. I doubt he was
the entitled chauffeur of Pétain. Foch was not at the same place that Pétain so Chiron could
not drive both of them. Christian Moity wrote that he transported the mail between the
front line and Pétain's headquarter.
The Légion d'Honneur: Chiron was Officer of the Légion d'Honneur.
WWII: Chiron joigned again the french army in september 1939 and was released after the
debacle in june 1940.
Switzerland: Abeillon adds that he met Edith Bitter and got married to her.
#29
Hans Etzrodt
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Posted 07 February 2004 - 05:57
I came across a snippet in AUTOMOBIL-REVUE No. 105 of 18. December 1928 about Louis Chiron and the occasion of honoring him in December 1928, at a special event of the traditional ‘Banquet des Champions’, arranged annually by the ACF for racing drivers of note, with anyone of name and stature in the French automotive world also attending, when Charles Faroux awarded Louis Chiron, winner of the European Grand Prix at Monza and several other important races during 1928, with the 'Grand Prix de l’Automobile 1928'. ...WOW, what title! What was that all about? 
Prior to that, the International Sporting Commission of the A.I.A.C.R. had decided at their October meeting that the World Championship could not be pronounced that year because none of the manufacturers had fulfilled the terms of the regulations. Is it therefore conceivable, that the ACF felt particularly obliged to honor at least the best driver of the year, especially as he was French? ...A title, by the way, that would have been very fitting for Chiron in 1928. Was that something unusual, considering that the first French Championship was not yet held at that time, I presume. ...And when was the first French Automobile Championship held, anyway?
Cyril Posthumus called Chiron 'European Champion elect that season', whatever that was supposed to mean in plain English.
Prior to that, the International Sporting Commission of the A.I.A.C.R. had decided at their October meeting that the World Championship could not be pronounced that year because none of the manufacturers had fulfilled the terms of the regulations. Is it therefore conceivable, that the ACF felt particularly obliged to honor at least the best driver of the year, especially as he was French? ...A title, by the way, that would have been very fitting for Chiron in 1928. Was that something unusual, considering that the first French Championship was not yet held at that time, I presume. ...And when was the first French Automobile Championship held, anyway?
Cyril Posthumus called Chiron 'European Champion elect that season', whatever that was supposed to mean in plain English.
#30
Jimmy Piget
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Posted 07 February 2004 - 06:08
Originally posted by David McKinney
Ah - that's a relief
dear David,
Until 1939, Maréchal Pétain was viewed as a war winner, along with Foch. He was just but a military man, not yet a politician or a head of state. In these years, public opinion in France loved successful army officers (alas). So, it is not compromising for Chiron to have been Pétain's chauffeur in WWII.
On the other hand, it is compromising for him if he was his chauffeur during the Nazi Occupation of France and Vichy collaboration.
About Chiron vs Hellé Nice, I have posted something in the thread on her.
#31
Jimmy Piget
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Posted 07 February 2004 - 06:10
Erratum :
not compromising to have been Pétain's chauffeur in WWI (not WWII !)
not compromising to have been Pétain's chauffeur in WWI (not WWII !)
#32
David McKinney
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Posted 07 February 2004 - 06:50
Thanks Jimmy. I realised all that. But I just wondered if past associatons meant he might have rejoined Pétain in the second period.
#33
Hans Etzrodt
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Posted 08 February 2004 - 10:31
Louis Chiron had planned to take a ship to America on 18. December 1928 to start in several American races.
But which ones?
But which ones?
#35
Bjorn Kjer
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Posted 30 May 2007 - 13:26
Will someone please continue this thread. I am thinking about Chiron after the WWII ?I know he raced and owned an OSCA in the early 50s , but what else .......
#36
green-blood
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Posted 30 May 2007 - 13:54
well there was a whole heap of flag dropping a Monaco anyway
#37
David McKinney
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Posted 30 May 2007 - 15:19
BjørnOriginally posted by Bjørn Kjer
I know he raced and owned an OSCA in the early 50s , but what else .......
With the greatest of respect
If that's all you know about a man who was still a Grand Prix 'Great' in the postwar period, and was still racing into the mid 1950s, I suggest you spend 10 minutes searching the myriad websites which exist to answer such questions.
The world has moved on from a time when people would recommend which books to buy, or which archives to visit to find magazine reports.
Requests such as this one risk alienation from some at least of the TNF community ;)
When you have the background, by all means come back with specific questions
#38
Bjorn Kjer
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Posted 30 May 2007 - 21:26
At it again Mr.McKinney ? Were you a Policeman , a Teacher or a Judge in your earlier life ,or all? I do not at all consider your comments are with respect , I think they are impertinent. And have been so from the start of my membership here. I suggest YOU stay or go to the backroads , and let me go on the mainroad I chose , and let the TNF members judge by themselves. So far I have had an absolutely satisfying response from the members , not only on the TNF!
#39
Mal9444
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Posted 30 May 2007 - 21:56
I feel sympathy with Bjorn (my machine don't do slashes through letters).
I too have been eviscerated in this medium (no names, no pack drill). Is this a chat room, where friends can talk among each other about a mutual interest as in an informal atmophere, happy to ask a maybe naive or simple question in the hope of a friendly answer and encouraging remark to learn more - or a formal court where only the learned may speak, after due deliberation?
I joined in the former frame of mind - but having been somewhat hurtfully rubbished by (names deleted to protect the guilty), am now much more cautious before I post. This, I suspect, might please the lofty and others among the 'TNF community' - the historians and professionals among us - but is it what everyone wants?
For myself, when Bjorn has added to any thread I invariably look to see what he has had to contribute - as indeed is the case with DM.
Surely, at the very least, we can be polite to each other?
A couple of links to the 'myriad websites' would hardly have hurt.
to all concerned.
I too have been eviscerated in this medium (no names, no pack drill). Is this a chat room, where friends can talk among each other about a mutual interest as in an informal atmophere, happy to ask a maybe naive or simple question in the hope of a friendly answer and encouraging remark to learn more - or a formal court where only the learned may speak, after due deliberation?
I joined in the former frame of mind - but having been somewhat hurtfully rubbished by (names deleted to protect the guilty), am now much more cautious before I post. This, I suspect, might please the lofty and others among the 'TNF community' - the historians and professionals among us - but is it what everyone wants?
For myself, when Bjorn has added to any thread I invariably look to see what he has had to contribute - as indeed is the case with DM.
Surely, at the very least, we can be polite to each other?
A couple of links to the 'myriad websites' would hardly have hurt.
to all concerned.
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#40
Vitesse2
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Posted 30 May 2007 - 22:56
Bjørn, Mal:
A quick cruise through Darren Galpin's site will provide a great number of references to Chiron's post-war career. He was certainly no shrinking violet and I'd venture to suggest he's the only man who raced both at Indy and on Swedish ice!
But - again with the greatest of respect and quoting Felix Muelas - "TNF is not an answering machine". A bit of searching through BB Search can usually provide a few leads - all that is necessary then is to reactivate an appropriate thread, sit back and watch ....
A quick cruise through Darren Galpin's site will provide a great number of references to Chiron's post-war career. He was certainly no shrinking violet and I'd venture to suggest he's the only man who raced both at Indy and on Swedish ice!
But - again with the greatest of respect and quoting Felix Muelas - "TNF is not an answering machine". A bit of searching through BB Search can usually provide a few leads - all that is necessary then is to reactivate an appropriate thread, sit back and watch ....
#41
Bjorn Kjer
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Posted 31 May 2007 - 06:34
Thanks Vitesse , found the Galpin site , will look it through!To your other comment , slightly related to DMs , I would prefer not to react to , but find it neseccary :
I do not stand court to my handlings here and if others have problems with me and my questions or the like , please stand up and let me hear !
If you look at the front Forum page under THE NOSTALGIA FORUM I believe no more saying is needed.
But now I cant help it : When I started on the TNF , it was with heartbeating of excitement over having found such a fantastic looking website. It didnt take long untill I got the first , to me smack in the face , feeling like I was dumb , could not speak the language ,was not qualified! I had the greatest respect to all those clever heads here ! Things have changed as a lot of you will know and have seen . Go to Mal9444s post above or look at the OSCA thread for the latest examples. When I got a lot of nice infos going on the OSCA thread , I tried to check about Louis Chiron and here on the TNF through the SearchBB, found the first LC thread wich started well (to my wishes) then before it was half (less than 50% ) over , turned into a discussion without LC! Well ,this was not it then , scrolling again , found this one ,with interesting infos then ending .....so I just thought there might be one of the "knowers" who would be willing to or finding it a good idea , to "finish" the story of LC ! Thats all! I certainly am not without faults and things do slip for me as well , but dont anyone dare acuse me of not searching or researching! All the infos I get here and elsewhere is put together and returned in order for anyone interested ! Go to the transporter thread , where do you think I get these infos? Not on the TNF I tell you , and a lot of members appreciates it , wich the mount of private mails I get proves! And many of you know that my knowledge is not only transporters! No , I am not defending myself , just telling some facts. I also read a thread about a new website with "backroads" , so I suggest all who does not like the discription of the TNF go to these backroads and leave me and others here on the main road! Enough said , I could continue for pages and hours !
But I shall end it with this : Step forward those who dislike me and my questions!
Kind regards , Bjørn and long live the TNF
#42
Bjorn Kjer
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Posted 31 May 2007 - 07:15
Sorry had to add this to Vitesse2 :
I hope you asked for permission to involve Felix in this , as he is totally wrong too ! Simple logics , no questions - no info - no answers -dead ! And you yourself are contradictory ! Read your own last line ....and what have I done ? So far far I have not even been able to sit back and watch !
And finally if you have followed a bit of my threads or post on others threads ,you will see that in most cases ,I do follow up , and in fact has pulled out so many info just by perserverance ,well knowing that not all members can be at the right place at the right moment with their knowledge . You may not have noticed either , but I have reopened some threads getting much more info !
I want to take , give and share! (and smoke !
I hope you asked for permission to involve Felix in this , as he is totally wrong too ! Simple logics , no questions - no info - no answers -dead ! And you yourself are contradictory ! Read your own last line ....and what have I done ? So far far I have not even been able to sit back and watch !
And finally if you have followed a bit of my threads or post on others threads ,you will see that in most cases ,I do follow up , and in fact has pulled out so many info just by perserverance ,well knowing that not all members can be at the right place at the right moment with their knowledge . You may not have noticed either , but I have reopened some threads getting much more info !
I want to take , give and share! (and smoke !
#43
Rob Ryder
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Posted 31 May 2007 - 07:53
To say I am surprised at the latest posts to this re-activated thread is an understatement. 
I cannot see what Bjørn did wrong that so upset DM and others, his request was similar to the post the opened the thread!
TNF was/is/should be for motorsport enthusiasts whos knowledge ranges from zero to illustrious authors and historians. This has always been the life-blood of TNF, with a simple request blossoming into a meaningful and detailed source of information. Ask Allen Brown how much new information he has found for OldRacingCars from seemingly simple/naiive qustions in threads!
DM's suggestion of researching other websites is valid, but the majority of these sites are bare statistics. These websites are for the bare bones of history.. if you want meat on the bone come to TNF. Well that was always my impression...
Could I suggest that this thread now goes back 'on topic' and continues the discussing the career of Louis Chiron from where it stalled.. 09-Feb-04 post #34.
Rob
I cannot see what Bjørn did wrong that so upset DM and others, his request was similar to the post the opened the thread!
TNF was/is/should be for motorsport enthusiasts whos knowledge ranges from zero to illustrious authors and historians. This has always been the life-blood of TNF, with a simple request blossoming into a meaningful and detailed source of information. Ask Allen Brown how much new information he has found for OldRacingCars from seemingly simple/naiive qustions in threads!
DM's suggestion of researching other websites is valid, but the majority of these sites are bare statistics. These websites are for the bare bones of history.. if you want meat on the bone come to TNF. Well that was always my impression...
Could I suggest that this thread now goes back 'on topic' and continues the discussing the career of Louis Chiron from where it stalled.. 09-Feb-04 post #34.
Rob
#44
ex Rhodie racer
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Posted 31 May 2007 - 09:27
Bjorn, feel free to ask what you want, when you want. If anyone on this forum (it is a public forum I believe) has a problem with that, then they are more than welcome to ignore your request and ocupy themselves with other stuff. I, for one, find your contribution to TNF to be most enjoyable and enlightening. Keep it up. 
#45
humphries
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Posted 31 May 2007 - 13:31
As the thread originator I need to explain that I did not want to know facts and figures about Chiron's racing career. What I wanted to know was if there was some obscure book (French) about him that I was not aware of, or if somebody had intimate knowledge of the man, or whether there was some valid reason why such an illustrious driver had no autobiography or biography.
As a grumpy old man I can sympathise with David as I am interested in the minutiae of sport, and enjoy the contributions of ex-drivers, racing personnel and specialist historians and researchers. That is why I use the forum and it is probably one of the reasons why David is here.
However, I can also sympathise with Bjorn. There is an awful lot to find out about. But if you are interested in the detailed history of the sport and starting from scratch then you have some serious studying to do. Fortunately there are hundreds of books and websites that are available. Nonetheless you still need to approach the task as a student would when taking a university degree. It requires the burning of much midnight oil on your own.
Luckily for me I began taking an interest in motor-racing in the middle Fifties at a tender age. It became obvious that I needed to know about the history of motor sport in order to fully appreciate the then present. Thankfully there were only forty-odd years to learn about. I badgered my parents to buy me the few books on the subject and I read them, re-read them and read them again. I started filling notebooks about the history of the sport, particularly the actual races, and I became obsessed.
Luckily for Bjorn there is TNF now and there are people who will provide what he wants to know. I have no problem with that.
But there is a problem with the forum, and the problem is that it is becoming cumbersome. When anybody wants to open a new thread they should be directed towards the BB with flashing lights and ringing bells. Only after perusal of the BB should they begin another thread, or resurrect an old one, if a query is unanswered. Obviously Bjorn did this and utilised an appropriate thread. However his request would have been better served by other sites, of which there are many, created by fellow TNFers. Perhaps a links page controlled by the moderator would be useful?
Alas, the TNF BB is so imprecise that locating a nugget of information is often very time consuming and the continual expansion of the TNF site, a major successs story, is making matters worse. If the computer whizzkids could upgrade the site to make it more manageable that would help.
Nevertheless, TNF is still a worthwhile, and hopefully welcoming, home for the most knowledgeable through to the novice and for those of us in between.
Just as an afterthought do any of the UK universities offer a degree in the history of motor-racing?
Apparently they offer a course in just about everything else.
John
As a grumpy old man I can sympathise with David as I am interested in the minutiae of sport, and enjoy the contributions of ex-drivers, racing personnel and specialist historians and researchers. That is why I use the forum and it is probably one of the reasons why David is here.
However, I can also sympathise with Bjorn. There is an awful lot to find out about. But if you are interested in the detailed history of the sport and starting from scratch then you have some serious studying to do. Fortunately there are hundreds of books and websites that are available. Nonetheless you still need to approach the task as a student would when taking a university degree. It requires the burning of much midnight oil on your own.
Luckily for me I began taking an interest in motor-racing in the middle Fifties at a tender age. It became obvious that I needed to know about the history of motor sport in order to fully appreciate the then present. Thankfully there were only forty-odd years to learn about. I badgered my parents to buy me the few books on the subject and I read them, re-read them and read them again. I started filling notebooks about the history of the sport, particularly the actual races, and I became obsessed.
Luckily for Bjorn there is TNF now and there are people who will provide what he wants to know. I have no problem with that.
But there is a problem with the forum, and the problem is that it is becoming cumbersome. When anybody wants to open a new thread they should be directed towards the BB with flashing lights and ringing bells. Only after perusal of the BB should they begin another thread, or resurrect an old one, if a query is unanswered. Obviously Bjorn did this and utilised an appropriate thread. However his request would have been better served by other sites, of which there are many, created by fellow TNFers. Perhaps a links page controlled by the moderator would be useful?
Alas, the TNF BB is so imprecise that locating a nugget of information is often very time consuming and the continual expansion of the TNF site, a major successs story, is making matters worse. If the computer whizzkids could upgrade the site to make it more manageable that would help.
Nevertheless, TNF is still a worthwhile, and hopefully welcoming, home for the most knowledgeable through to the novice and for those of us in between.
Just as an afterthought do any of the UK universities offer a degree in the history of motor-racing?
Apparently they offer a course in just about everything else.
John
#46
HDonaldCapps
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Posted 31 May 2007 - 16:24
Off Topic to an extent on the main item, M. Chiron, but related to the issue immediately at hand, that is, what John just made a comment about.
This forum has changed quite a bit since I wondered aloud if anyone would bother to visit. However, what has not changed very much is the "technology" beneath this forum. It is, for all intents and purposes, despite some upgrades over time, basically the same as it was when the forum first saw the light of day (actually, it was the "dark of night") back in November 1999. The capability of the search facility is about what it was then -- essentially marginal, and I am unware of any major changes in the meantime. Apparently, if there were to be a significant upgrade to things, one of the problems is that you basically have to start over and all the information currently on-hand doesn't get carried forward. That was once what it was, so it might be different now.
Another major part of the change is that there has been the ebb and flow of the tides that have swept people into and out of the forum. To a large extent, part of my initial intent for the forum has happened -- we have David, John, "Our Doug," John Glenn Printz, and others that qualify as being "The Pros From Dover," who visit and use the forum as it was hoped -- as a reference tool. Aligned with that purpose is the ability to conduct collaborative research projects, there being so many now, but the 1939 European Championship being one of the crown jewels -- even if Hans' original question was never answered.
There is good reason that Felix once declared, with my full backing, that "TNF is not an answering machine" -- and not just because of the Russian F1 Quizzes. As mentioned many times by me, I had a number of ideas when I was shaping this forum. One of them was perhaps quite naive -- that most others were as curious as I was and were also willing to both provide information as well as ask for information. Honestly, I never imagined we would get to the point where both David and Bjørn have valid points. While I strongly tend to side with David, I also can appreciate the issue that Bjørn faces.
One thing that does bother me is that, inevitably, the forum has lost its culture of "intimacy" or whatever you might want to call it. I was hammered and criticized on a routine, recurring basis as the strong perception that TNF was a closed shop, not for "outsiders" and so on. Not strictly true, but the point is -- or was -- that something such as that is difficult to avoid, particularly when history clashes with nostalgia.
I still carry a great sense of failure whenever I take a moment and consider what I wanted to do with TNF. Then again, I also realize that failure was a given, something that folks like me are not easily given to taking very well. Of course, that is in terms of being a personal failure since few seemed to understand and fewer care as to what led to the Great Meltdown.
So, I guess all I can say is that, Bjørn and others, that this is still the best such forum around, but size and time are taking a toll. I don't have any easy solutions or answers to what Mal and Bjørn and others perceive as the cold-hearted aspects of TNF. Part of it is the nature of the Internet Beast and part of it is the approach and part of it just how life is.
At any rate, here I am trying to greatly reduce my participation in the fora I still somewhat participate in so I can get some work done on my projects and I write another epistle....
PS: I somehow forgot to mention that one major goal was to provide for the growth of the new "Pros From Dover," that is, provide them an environment to develop and grow, and demonstrate their abilities. I think we have done okay on that point -- not as great as I might have like, but not bad, either. A major failing on my part is/was being able to get a sense between those who would like others to do their research for them -- lots more of these out there than I ever realized, and those whose questions and so forth are the result of simple enthusiam or interest or curiosity. The latter are poorly served by the lack of some form of indexing or whatever of the (vast quantities of) information within TNF.
This forum has changed quite a bit since I wondered aloud if anyone would bother to visit. However, what has not changed very much is the "technology" beneath this forum. It is, for all intents and purposes, despite some upgrades over time, basically the same as it was when the forum first saw the light of day (actually, it was the "dark of night") back in November 1999. The capability of the search facility is about what it was then -- essentially marginal, and I am unware of any major changes in the meantime. Apparently, if there were to be a significant upgrade to things, one of the problems is that you basically have to start over and all the information currently on-hand doesn't get carried forward. That was once what it was, so it might be different now.
Another major part of the change is that there has been the ebb and flow of the tides that have swept people into and out of the forum. To a large extent, part of my initial intent for the forum has happened -- we have David, John, "Our Doug," John Glenn Printz, and others that qualify as being "The Pros From Dover," who visit and use the forum as it was hoped -- as a reference tool. Aligned with that purpose is the ability to conduct collaborative research projects, there being so many now, but the 1939 European Championship being one of the crown jewels -- even if Hans' original question was never answered.
There is good reason that Felix once declared, with my full backing, that "TNF is not an answering machine" -- and not just because of the Russian F1 Quizzes. As mentioned many times by me, I had a number of ideas when I was shaping this forum. One of them was perhaps quite naive -- that most others were as curious as I was and were also willing to both provide information as well as ask for information. Honestly, I never imagined we would get to the point where both David and Bjørn have valid points. While I strongly tend to side with David, I also can appreciate the issue that Bjørn faces.
One thing that does bother me is that, inevitably, the forum has lost its culture of "intimacy" or whatever you might want to call it. I was hammered and criticized on a routine, recurring basis as the strong perception that TNF was a closed shop, not for "outsiders" and so on. Not strictly true, but the point is -- or was -- that something such as that is difficult to avoid, particularly when history clashes with nostalgia.
I still carry a great sense of failure whenever I take a moment and consider what I wanted to do with TNF. Then again, I also realize that failure was a given, something that folks like me are not easily given to taking very well. Of course, that is in terms of being a personal failure since few seemed to understand and fewer care as to what led to the Great Meltdown.
So, I guess all I can say is that, Bjørn and others, that this is still the best such forum around, but size and time are taking a toll. I don't have any easy solutions or answers to what Mal and Bjørn and others perceive as the cold-hearted aspects of TNF. Part of it is the nature of the Internet Beast and part of it is the approach and part of it just how life is.
At any rate, here I am trying to greatly reduce my participation in the fora I still somewhat participate in so I can get some work done on my projects and I write another epistle....
PS: I somehow forgot to mention that one major goal was to provide for the growth of the new "Pros From Dover," that is, provide them an environment to develop and grow, and demonstrate their abilities. I think we have done okay on that point -- not as great as I might have like, but not bad, either. A major failing on my part is/was being able to get a sense between those who would like others to do their research for them -- lots more of these out there than I ever realized, and those whose questions and so forth are the result of simple enthusiam or interest or curiosity. The latter are poorly served by the lack of some form of indexing or whatever of the (vast quantities of) information within TNF.
#47
Rob Ryder
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- 2,649 posts
- Joined: June 00
Member
Posted 31 May 2007 - 19:22
I think I have read that post before... deja vu?
I'll check the with the search facility...;)
Rob
I'll check the with the search facility...;)
Rob
#48
Rob Ryder
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- 2,649 posts
- Joined: June 00
Member
Posted 31 May 2007 - 20:38
JohnOriginally posted by humphries
....
However, I can also sympathise with Bjorn. There is an awful lot to find out about. But if you are interested in the detailed history of the sport and starting from scratch then you have some serious studying to do. Fortunately there are hundreds of books and websites that are available. Nonetheless you still need to approach the task as a student would when taking a university degree. It requires the burning of much midnight oil on your own.
John
Bjørn is not starting from scratch. He has been compiling hand-written reports and statistics since the mid 1950s and has a large collection of magazine/press clippings (some of which he has graciously sent to me). He also has a collection of motorsport books that would be the envy of most TNF members.
Bjørn is far from being a newbie to motorsport history
Rob
#49
HDonaldCapps
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- 2,482 posts
- Joined: April 05
Member
Posted 31 May 2007 - 20:58
Originally posted by Rob Ryder
I think I have read that post before... deja vu?
I'll check the with the search facility...;)
Rob
While that is probably true, but there is a strong possibility that I will finally become primarily a lurker and occasional poster -- probably to the complete relief of almost everyone. I realize that I am way past my shelf life. Simply a reflection of reality.
#50
Ray Bell
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- 82,286 posts
- Joined: December 99
Member
Posted 31 May 2007 - 21:15
Fact is, Don, once you get beyond your bitterness and snarling about it, your contributions are very worthwhile...
I'd hate to think that you would become a lurker, as Mike has and others. Participation by you and such people is important to the life of the forum.
Now... I don't see any of my posts about Dennis Chiron in this thread... where are they?
I'd hate to think that you would become a lurker, as Mike has and others. Participation by you and such people is important to the life of the forum.
Now... I don't see any of my posts about Dennis Chiron in this thread... where are they?
