227 replies to this topic

[holiday]

Ok. Ralf vs. Juan - Already the subject of countless discussions on this board.

But I'd like to have a clear overview over the opinions on this board for once, be it only in order to revive this thread after their last season together at Williams.

I admit I was at first inclined to vote for "even" because I fundamentally rate both drivers in the same tier (still do). But one can't deny that it was rather Ralf who has been in the defensive since about the beginning of 2002. Still, they are very even matched for a top driver combo something which also shows in their 'mixed' raw statistics.

Finally, I opted for "JPM slighty better". But, in any case, the final verdict IMO still hangs in the balance so far and depends very much on their last mutual season.

PS: Maybe someone is so kind as to contribute the raw numbers of this duel.

Cheers.

[Spamula One]

I seem to base my driver preference on general feeling rather than qualifying numbers or championship position, after Montoya's first year in CART showed me that he is special, that he has that certain quality which all champions have. I think he has a way of driving/racing that's reassuring for all the people that work with/for him.

In my view, Ralf has become a journeyman whose performances are too bi-polar to be able to put him in the same class as Montoya.

[kouks]

Holiday, you've been on here for 3 years, you should know better than to start these fires ;)

Anyway, I'll just grab a beer, wait a while, then throw my support for the underdog in this discussion which will no doubt be Ralf.

[holiday]

Originally posted by kouks
Holiday, you've been on here for 3 years, you should know better than to start these fires ;)

To be honest, after viewing the first results it struck me again that Ralf Schumacher is far and away the most 'misinterpreted' active driver on this board. My mistake not to have taken this into consideration before, just didn't think about it.

This means nothing else than the final voting result won't almost certainly not even remotely do justice to his true calibre as a driver.

And yes, I am a bit bored now of off-season.

[baddog]

even, shading to montoya recently perhaps, but by no means a clear difference

Shaun

[Ricardo F1]

Originally posted by baddog
even, shading to montoya recently perhaps, but by no means a clear difference

Shaun

I concur.

[mach4]

Originally posted by baddog
even, shading to montoya recently perhaps, but by no means a clear difference

Shaun

poor Ralf lost his only fan

[Estwald]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1


I concur.

Likewise

[baddog]

Originally posted by mach4
poor Ralf lost his only fan

My position regarding ralf and monty has been very consistent over the period they have been teammates. Ralf still has a fan here, just a realistic one ;)

Shaun

[Superman]

Well i don't think MOntoya is that much better than Ralf, i mean if you are saying Montoya have pure pace then should out qualify Ralf every year but that not the case it is? and no excuses is allow if you are great driver you should be able to adapt to any new racing or qualifying format. The most interesting thing i am wating to see is his excuses a for leaving William is Ralf is earing more than him and soon when he move to Mc and realised Kimi will so much more money than him, what is he going to do this time? Kimi is wRONg's baby after all.

[BuonoBruttoCattivo]

Originally posted by Estwald


Likewise

idem

[chris_canuk]

JPM by alot. I think as drivers they're pretty evenly matched. As racers, I think Juan's miles ahead.

[revvhead]

Even i said.
Was considering JPM on the slightly better, but decided even is a fairer assesment.
Ralf did slog out the bad years at williams and i thought he did it pretty well then.
Almost got the nurburgring win in the winfield williams,which went to herbert's jag courtesy a puncture. I think a lot of people have forgotten about that. Everyone was saying then that Zanardi would wipe the floor with Ralf, but we know what happened there.
Also i thought that his Formula Nippon drives were pretty good..
As for being a journeyman driver

[Daemon]

In terms of raw talent, I think Juan is clearly a faster driver, but he's handicapped by his often and consistent brain fades when the going gets tough, and is prone to push to hard, or fight for an impossible position his car is not in a um....position to maintain, which has often caused him problems.

Which is where Ralf catches up to him. Whilst not so quick IMO, he takes a more mature approach to racing and it seems to balance this out in the overall championship situation.

[Superman]

I though Journeyman driver applied to the like of Jos, pedro and yoong (pay driver as well)

[holiday]

Originally posted by Superman
I though Journeyman driver applied to the like of Jos, pedro and yoong (pay driver as well)

Not quite so. "Journeyman" also applies to anti-fans and the likes...

[Lada Lover]

I like JPM and I voted Ralf as slightly better. Maybe it's his experience.

[Spamula One]

Originally posted by Superman
I though Journeyman driver applied to the like of Jos, pedro and yoong (pay driver as well)

I guess what I meant to say is that he is clearly capable of doing the job, having already posted some pole positions and race victories, but hasn't the same calibre as Montoya. When (if?) Ralf switches teams in the coming years, I'll put twenty dollars down saying he will not accomplish much, being hired because of a vast knowledge of the tracks, good testing/development skills, etc. rather than a red hot driver, obssesed with winning the championship.

[MuMu]

Ralf is one of the quickest guys in the world. He is also very good technically, ie setups etc.
He's not as consistent as Juan though, and is not very good at racing other drivers.

Juan is even quicker, but not as good as Ralf with setups etc. That will probably come as he gains more F1 experience.
He's the best overtaker in F1 at the moment, and prepared to race wheel-to-wheel with anyone.
He's also had more than his share of bad luck, but these things tend to even out over a career.

In a perfect car, JPM would be slightly better.
In a less than perfect car, JPM much better.


Both are good enough never to be dominated by any team-mate.

[MuMu]

Originally posted by Daemon

Which is where Ralf catches up to him. Whilst not so quick IMO, he takes a more mature approach to racing and it seems to balance this out in the overall championship situation.

If you look at the overall chapionship situation, the 'mature' approach of Ralf didn't seem to help him much over the last two seasons - he was beaten by JPM despite having fewer mechanical failures.

Also, there was a thread last year detailing errors (spins, crashes etc) - Ralf made far more than any other of the top drivers. I hardly call that a 'mature' approach!

JPM seems to be more 'aware' of other drivers on the track than Ralf.

I suppose it sticks in people's mind more if somebody has an incident while fighting for position than if one spins a couple of times in 8th place.

[HSJ]

Originally posted by Daemon
In terms of raw talent, I think Juan is clearly a faster driver, but he's handicapped by his often and consistent brain fades when the going gets tough, and is prone to push to hard, or fight for an impossible position his car is not in a um....position to maintain, which has often caused him problems.

Which is where Ralf catches up to him. Whilst not so quick IMO, he takes a more mature approach to racing and it seems to balance this out in the overall championship situation.

Seems to balance out? I beg to disagree after what we saw in 2003. Remember that Ralf had ZERO failures on his car. He finished every race except Hockenheim where he put himself and RB and KR out, and of course didn't take part in Monza. JPM on the other hand suffered to mechanical DNFs and was once taken out (effectively) by Pizzonia in Sepang. So with 13 finishes JPM convincingly outscored RS who had 14 finishes. Also, how can one take Ralf seriously after scoring a grand total of FIVE points in the last SIX RACES with a car that NEVER FAILED!?!? Okay, Ralf didn't take part in Monza, so make that five points in five races. But still. That has to be the definition of pathetic: in five races, with a car that was each time the best or second best, he scored five points.

[HSJ]

Originally posted by MuMu


Both are good enough never to be dominated by any team-mate.

I wouldn't make that prediction just yet. You might regret it in, oh, about one year... ;)

[Arrow]

Last year gerhard berger when asked in an interview about ralf and juan said that montoya looked like the star and that the general consensus by the F1 community was that Juan was the far better driver but surprisingly when you take a look at the results over the years they show no one is definitively better.

That pretty much sums up their parternership.

I personally think that montoya is clearly better without having been able to show it yet,for various reasons...

[holiday]

I've read now numerous comments over the years made by Berger with regard to Ralf and Juan and I can say for a FACT that he always states the same with amazing consistency : that both are a match for one another and both capable enough to win the championship.

In NO way is Berger the main authotity for an alleged Montoya supremacy. This is simply not true. Rather, he has been very anxious to not rate them hierachically.

[The Vulcan]

I would think JPM would have a slight edge over Ralf this season

[Schuting Star]

Originally posted by MuMu
In a perfect car, JPM would be slightly better.

I disagree, in a perfect car I think Ralf is better.

They still seem fairly even to me. Despite many believing JPM would walk all over Ralf it hasn't happened. This year should be very interesting indeed.

[Arrow]

Originally posted by holiday
I've read now numerous comments over the years made by Berger with regard to Ralf and Juan and I can say for a FACT that he always states the same with amazing consistency : that both are a match for one another and both capable enough to win the championship.

In NO way is Berger the main authotity for an alleged Montoya supremacy. This is simply not true. Rather, he has been very anxious to not rate them hierachically.

I stated that berger rated them even,what exactly are you addressing?

[Sith]

Originally posted by MuMu
In a perfect car, JPM would be slightly better.
In a less than perfect car, JPM much better.
Both are good enough never to be dominated by any team-mate.

I was a big JPM fan, and never thought much of Ralf. That all turned around last year. When that FW25 was at the very front of G.P's, it was Ralf doing the winning, and JPM trailing behind him. JPM can drive around the problems of a car, as seen in all the pole laps he did in 02'. I'm looking forward to the outcome this year, i'm tipping Ralf. JPM was thought to be the next big thing, well that all starts with DOMINATING your team-mate. They're about the same, they have they're weakness's/strengths. but way short of M.S! History tells us that we only get a handful of "real battles" between team-mates over a season. Let's see what 04' brings us form these 2!

[checkonetwo]

until one year ago i would have said montoya is clearly the better driver. but after some really annoying drives from ralf in the beginning of last season where i seriously started to consider him a journeyman compared to juan, the car got better and better and this was when he started to FLY. he was all over juans place and it really made me wonder. then came hockenheim with his annual total brainfade (juans came in indianapolis). question marks again.

but

ralf in hungary was IMO one of the three single best races we saw from any driver last year. incredibly fast, error-free and aggressive. i think there for the very first time we have seen all he`s got and it´s plenty.
i voted even. if the ferraris do not beat the **** out of everybody, ralf is a serious contender for the WDC title and can more or less handle monty, which in itself is a feat.

[Smooth]

Originally posted by baddog
even, shading to montoya recently perhaps, but by no means a clear difference

Shaun

Yep. They both have their strengths, and weaknesses. They about even out.....

[umapathypon]

I think it's about even between them.

I am not too sure abt JPM being better in a less than ideal car while Ralf being better when the car is good thing either.It might seem so based on last year's performance.
But,looking back to 2002,JPM had 7 pole runs while Ralf had none.But qualifying was only 9-8 to JPM which seems to say that JPM got his act together when his car was working well compared to the other cars while Ralf did better when the car was not as good compared to the other cars.
Anyway,this is the closest matched pair on the grid and looking forward to seeing them next year.

[Tomecek]

Oh no, neverending war of words whether Ralf or Juan is better continues this season.... :


Ralf is excelent if he is alone in the lead for example, while this is Juan's week point and vice versa.

I rate them both very high though.

[troyf1]

Originally posted by chris_canuk
JPM by alot. I think as drivers they're pretty evenly matched. As racers, I think Juan's miles ahead.

I agree. Ralf might be a bit quicker in terms of raw speed but in terms of willingness to gun it out in a wheel to wheel battle on the track JPM is better IMHO.

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Smooth
Yep. They both have their strengths, and weaknesses. They about even out.....

Mostly agreed but not completely.

Ralf is a great driver, but IMO JPM is the better racer. I can see RS becoming WDC, like I saw Damon Hill becoming WDC. In a dominant car, that he's comfortable in, fighting his teammate. JPM on the other hand can be WDC in any top 3/4 car and could even become multiple WDC. Somehow I don't see Ralf becoming a multiple WDC.

It's hard to rate one over the other, purely based on results. But, for some reason, JPM impresses me more, so I rate him just a little bit higher.

[Jerry Lee]

Originally posted by revvhead
...Almost got the nurburgring win in the winfield williams,which went to herbert's jag courtesy a puncture. I think a lot of people have forgotten about that...

ALOT of drivers almost won that race.

Originally posted by revvhead
...Everyone was saying then that Zanardi would wipe the floor with Ralf, but we know what happened there....

I admit I expected him to do better but I think Zanardi wiped the floor with himself and Ralf had little to do with it.


I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion, (its a very close call) just the particular reasons you cited.

I'm leaning toward slightly better myself.

[Jhope]

Where's dan2k?

[Vilenova]

Originally posted by HSJ


I wouldn't make that prediction just yet. You might regret it in, oh, about one year... ;)

LOL, yep. I can imagine the "Kimi is better, no Juan is" threads already.

[Tomecek]

Originally posted by Jhope
Where's dan2k?

he is shaking his head ;)

[DukeNukem]

Monty is too hot headed, he is a liability. Ralf is calmer.
If you need proof of how hot-headed monty can get listen to this

its 260Kb right-click and save target as Upset monty

[acey]

Regarding the need to dominate your teammate if you want to be "big". Well, thats true if you have teammates which are under contract like Rubens, Herbert, Irvine, Verstappen etc. Do you really think Schumi if he'd go to McLaren or Williams would dominate Montoya, Ralf or Kimi? Sorry dont think so. You didnt see Prost dominate Senna or vice versa did you?

I think Juan is the slightly faster driver but as someone said in a perfect car Ralf is very, very fast indeed.

[Smooth]

Originally posted by Frogman

Mostly agreed but not completely.

Ralf is a great driver, but IMO JPM is the better racer. I can see RS becoming WDC, like I saw Damon Hill becoming WDC. In a dominant car, that he's comfortable in, fighting his teammate. JPM on the other hand can be WDC in any top 3/4 car and could even become multiple WDC. Somehow I don't see Ralf becoming a multiple WDC.

It's hard to rate one over the other, purely based on results. But, for some reason, JPM impresses me more, so I rate him just a little bit higher.

JPM had a top 2 car last year, the top car on many occasions. And what happened? JPM is as likely to be a WDC as Ralf. They both make dumb errors, and they both need to keep their heads in the game more.

If you take away all the hype about JPM, you have two pretty even drivers.....

[Jerry Lee]

Originally posted by DukeNukem
...If you need proof of how hot-headed monty can get listen to this

its 260Kb right-click and save target as Upset monty

I'm a rather calm person and I act like that every day on the way to work. Apparently it what happens when you drive a car.

[DukeNukem]

Originally posted by Jerry Lee


I'm a rather calm person and I act like that every day on the way to work. Apparently it what happens when you drive a car.

I've been looking for an exuse to post that file for ages, I just think its hilarious that it was broadcast at 2-4pm on UK tv (albeit PPV F1) without bleeping or anything.

You have road rage he has F1 rage then

[Tomecek]

Originally posted by DukeNukem
Monty is too hot headed, he is a liability. Ralf is calmer.
If you need proof of how hot-headed monty can get listen to this

its 260Kb right-click and save target as Upset monty

Outspokenness doesn't stand for being hot headed ;)

[chris_canuk]

Originally posted by DukeNukem
Monty is too hot headed, he is a liability. Ralf is calmer.
If you need proof of how hot-headed monty can get listen to this

its 260Kb right-click and save target as Upset monty

What's the context in which Monty's "outburst" took place?

This doesn't mean anything. Even if Monty were hot-headed, which he probably is, it does not necessarily make him a liability. Just like Ralf being calmer does not make him better. One could argue that Monty has a passion which is sorely lacking in Ralf. In fact, let me be the first to make that statement.

[MortenF1]

They're both extremely good, and there's not much between them. With Ralf's great mid-season performances fresh in mind, I think both could become WDC(But yes HSJ, he wasn't exactly impressive in the latter third of the season, but it wasn't only down to him). I voted "even", but having thought about it a bit more, I regret and wish I had voted "Montoya slightly better". But that's not by much IMHO, but I think he's a little faster, and just a bit more complete driver. He's better and more aggresive when passing others, but Ralf showed us all he knows how it's done in Hungary last year.
to both Williams drivers!

[MortenF1]

Originally posted by chris_canuk


What's the context in which Monty's "outburst" took place?

It all happened during qualifying on Spa in '02. Kimi was on his way into the pits, and Juan Pablo was behind, on a fast lap, NOT going into the pits, but Kimi just strolled slowly in the middle of the racing line right before the Bus Stop, and the pit entrance, and thereby f**ked up Juan Pablo's qualifying attempt.

[DukeNukem]

Originally posted by chris_canuk


What's the context in which Monty's "outburst" took place?

This doesn't mean anything. Even if Monty were hot-headed, which he probably is, it does not necessarily make him a liability. Just like Ralf being calmer does not make him better. One could argue that Monty has a passion which is sorely lacking in Ralf. In fact, let me be the first to make that statement.

IIRC this happened at Spa 02, JPM was behind KR as he approached the bus-stop (the pitlane entrance used to be straight on from there?) KR slowed early to enter the pits and baulked JPMs lap, this was in free practice I think. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, not 100% sure of the exact details.

EDIT> Thanks for correcting race addicted


I wouldn't deny he is passionate, too much so if you ask me, there has to come a point were passion stops and logic takes over. If you are going into a overtake and it looks like you are not going to make it logic should say abort it, but passion would say no sod it and you keep your foot in. The result for example Indy 2003, you lose the WDC (I don't want to get into a debate about the semantics of that particular overtake attempt, its just an example). Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that a passionate driver isn't a good one but you need to be a clear thinker when you are going 200 mph, the red mist can easily cloud your judgement.

[chris_canuk]

Originally posted by race addicted


It all happened during qualifying on Spa in '02. Kimi was on his way into the pits, and Juan Pablo was behind, on a fast lap, NOT going into the pits, but Kimi just strolled slowly in the middle of the racing line right before the Bus Stop, and the pit entrance, and thereby f**ked up Juan Pablo's qualifying attempt.

In that context, then, Monty's outburst seems perfectly reasonable. Kimi's lucky that he didn't get thwacked later on.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Juan has been better since around silverstone 2001 when he got to grips with the car. Both are of course very good.