22 replies to this topic

[Dave Wright]

I wonder whether anyone can help validate some information I have on maximum speeds of F1 cars during the mid 60s.

In 1964, Autocar reported Gurney "had been clocked in practice at 158 mph" along the Masta straight at Spa.

In 1965 Jenks, reporting on Hill's pole lap of 3:45.4 at Spa quotes a maximum of 162-165 mph.

In 1965, Bill Gavin reporting in AutoSport quotes Clarks maximum speed at Enna as 153.5 mph

In 1966, Surtees writes that he was geared for 176 mph at Spa.

In 1966, Brabham reports he reached 172 mph at Reims though the race report in the same magazine says 174 mph.

Would reporters like Jenks have reliable information on maximum speeds?

Were there independent speed-traps at Spa for example or would such information come from the drivers/teams? I seem to remember Mr Gatso had a speed-trap at Zandvoort during the 60s, and I think there was one at Watkins Glen.

Were the gearing charts used by the teams reasonably accurate - did they take account of tyre diameter changes at high speeds?

Has anyone else got any data on maximum speeds in 1964, 65 or 66?

Thanks in advance for any help you can give.

[Dave Wright]

It is not often a thread gets no replies but this was one of them!

I'll only bump it this one time. The requested information was quite technical but the forum is normally good at producing obscure information. There was a thread a little while ago on the speeds of 1938 GP cars and this had lots of replies.

Perhaps if I simplified the request.

Does anyone know if speedtraps were in use at Spa or any other circuits in the mid 1960s, or did published reports of speeds reached in F1 originate from the driver during this period?

[Don Capps]

Dave, I saw this, lost it, and now seeing it have taken another look at what I have -- which is less than I expected and basically what you already have. I can ask Bill Green about the Watkins Glen speed trap information since if anyone has their hands on it, Bill is the man.

Interestingly enough, this was not the hot topic I would have imagined it to be at the time.

[Mike Argetsinger]

Dave - I'm glad you bumped this - I came across some data by chance the other day - remembered this thread - but couldn't find it! I used the wrong words on the search function, I suppose.

I do have the speed trap times for all the cars in the USGP at Watkins Glen in 1968. As Don has suggested, Bill Green may well have other years. Please note - while these speeds are from the official timing and scoring report from the race - they are included in the report only as a matter of interest - Bill Close (Chief of Timing and Scoring) made a special note that, because it was not possible to time more than one car at a time through the speed trap, these were "spot-checks only" - and do not necessarily reflect the highest speed achieved by the car during the race.

The highest speed recorded was Jack Brabham in the Brabham-Repco on lap 26 at 170.62 mph. The slowest was Vic Elford in the Cooper-BRM on lap 58 at 148.15 mph. The race winner, Jackie Stewart, in a Matra-Ford recorded a speed of 169.67 mph on lap 65.

I have others if anyone is interested.

[Rob Semmeling]

Copy/pasted from a post of mine in an old thread on the GPL board:

I have a book about the history of the Belgium Grand Prix, which mentions that Gurney's Eagle was measured at 320 km/h (199 mp/h) during the 1967 GP. Also, for the 1970 GP the Masta-S was tightened, nevertheless Rodriguez was measured at 301 km/h (187 mp/h) in this bend during the race.

The book also mentions Farina being measured at 323,272 km/h (200,7 mp/h) at the Masta straight during the 1950 GP. Don't know how reliable these figures are.

(http://forum.racesim...0590#post790590)

Same topic:

http://forum.racesim...45&page=1&pp=25


And finally, though not requested, this might be interesting to you all nevertheless:

Here's how the Ferrari 312B3 (1974 F1 car) accelerated:

0-100 ft......2,4 s
0-500 ft......5,4 s
0-1320 ft (1/4 mile).....9,0 s
Speed at end of 1/4 mile: 159 mph

0-30 mph.......1,2 s
0-50 mph.......2,0 s
0-60 mph.......2,4 s
0-80 mph.......3,2 s
0-100 mph.....4,3 s
0-120 mph......5,5 s
0-140 mph......7,0 s

Topspeed: app 192 mph at 12.000 RPM in 5th gear.

These figures where all printed in an old Road & Track magazine, along with much more technical info.

[Dave Wright]

Don, Mike and Rob

Thanks for the replies.

Concerning Spa, the wording "measured" implies a speed trap, as I suppose does the 1964 report stating Gurney was "clocked at".

Concerning Watkins Glen - thanks for this information. A trackmap I have implies the speedtrap was on a bend, not at the end of the straight. Is this correct. I also have a figure of 144 mph for the Honda RA272 at the Watkins Glen speedtrap in 1965. Apparently this was the fastest car, but I felt this was probably more a measure of acceleration rather than maximum speed. I seem to remember reading that the Honda wasn't the fastest car at the end of the Zandvoort straight. Of course if Bill Green does have any more Watkins Glen information, particularly 1965, I would be very interested.

[thomaskomm]

Imagine, the 1968 cars had very large wings. Brabham had two of them. Downforce increased and topspeed went down. Absolutely fast the Eagle if this were correct with 200 mph on masta. In another thread i had read the on the last GP 1970 Amon were the only f1 driver who drove flat out on the masta kink, the two last laps to reach the eventually racewinner Rodriguez.
Top speed with the 1967 F1 cars was surely higher than the follow cars with great wings.

Graham Hill said on the "Hermann Lang- Bill Manson nuerburgring lap" top speed on Schwedenkreuz was with the 1962 F1 Cars was 150 mph.

Sports cars (like the F330 Ferrari) drove 1964 top speed on Reims ca. 195 mph.

Top speed for the first Formula Vee cars like the "Formcar" (1963) was on Watkins Glen Back straight 88 mph!

Thomas

[Dave Wright]

Originally posted by thomaskomm
Imagine, the 1968 cars had very large wings. Brabham had two of them. Downforce increased and topspeed went down. Absolutely fast the Eagle if this were correct with 200 mph on masta. In another thread i had read the on the last GP 1970 Amon were the only f1 driver who drove flat out on the masta kink, the two last laps to reach the eventually racewinner Rodriguez.
Top speed with the 1967 F1 cars was surely higher than the follow cars with great wings.

I'm sure you are right. The trend to trade speed for grip was also noted in the 1.5 litre formula. Colin Chapman said the Lotus was 10 mph slower down the straight at Spa in 1965 than it was in 1962 due to the bigger tyres, even though power went up by 20%.

[Wolf]

I'm not sure how comparable Spa is in GPL rendition (IIRC, '67 version had flattened Malmedy, and GPL has '66 version), but I get roughly the same speed in GPL Eagle (with my quasi-realistic setups)- 201.8 on bottom of Masta straight (and 200 before the kink).

Dave- am I correct in assuming this thread pertains to fine-tuning performances in '65 mod? You guys are making termendous job. (I could say I can't wait to see it, but then again- I better not, because it might sound as impatience, rather than compliment as it's meant to be.;))

[joachimvanwing]

Originally posted by thomaskomm
In another thread i had read the on the last GP 1970 Amon were the only f1 driver who drove flat out on the masta kink, the two last laps to reach the eventually racewinner Rodriguez.
Top speed with the 1967 F1 cars was surely higher than the follow cars with great wings.

Having visited masta corner, I can hardly believe a pre 1975 car going flat out there. I mean... having stood in the middle of the road at Masta kink, it really is a very narrow gap, and blind up to the exit. How sure can we be about Amon's or Rodriguez's comments?

[LittleChris]

The GPL version of Spa bears absolutely no comparison to reality !!

[Vincenzo Lancia]

Originally posted by LittleChris
The GPL version of Spa bears absolutely no comparison to reality !!

Everything is absolutely relative!

Anyway - the GPL rendition of Spa certainly is'nt very accurate, to put it a bit milder.
It's too wide, the Eau Rouge is'nt tight enough (but at least as tight as it is today), and there's a couple of other flaws too I can't remember....
But - a version as close to 67-real-life as possible is being build as you may know.

[schuy]

Originally posted by Rob Semmeling
Here's how the Ferrari 312B3 (1974 F1 car) accelerated:

0-100 ft......2,4 s
0-500 ft......5,4 s
0-1320 ft (1/4 mile).....9,0 s
Speed at end of 1/4 mile: 159 mph

0-30 mph.......1,2 s
0-50 mph.......2,0 s
0-60 mph.......2,4 s
0-80 mph.......3,2 s
0-100 mph.....4,3 s
0-120 mph......5,5 s
0-140 mph......7,0 s

Topspeed: app 192 mph at 12.000 RPM in 5th gear.

Interestingly enough, today's hyper-sports cars would reach the same 9.0 seconds to the 1/4 mile or thereabout, but the speed reached by the sports cars wouldn't be anywhere close to 159mph.

[Geoff E]

Originally posted by schuy


Interestingly enough, today's hyper-sports cars would reach the same 9.0 seconds to the 1/4 mile or thereabout, but the speed reached by the sports cars wouldn't be anywhere close to 159mph.

Are you sure they could get near 9 seconds?

The Stealth takes 11 seconds "here are some figures that we managed to attain at Millbrook: the Stealth hit 60mph in 3.6sec, 100mph in 6.3sec and did the quarter mile In 11.0sec dead."

From http://www.racecar.c...th/autocar2.htm

A nine second quarter-mile requires an average of 100mph which would require reaching 100mph in the 4.x second bracket (as achieved by the Ferrari). The Stealth averaged 82 mph, a speed reached about 5 seconds after starting.

[schuy]

True...
I haven't a clue why I thought super-cars are reaching those times these days.

I must be going nuts

[dewittereus]

Originally posted by Rob Semmeling
Copy/


And finally, though not requested, this might be interesting to you all nevertheless:

Here's how the Ferrari 312B3 (1974 F1 car) accelerated:

0-100 ft......2,4 s
0-500 ft......5,4 s
0-1320 ft (1/4 mile).....9,0 s
Speed at end of 1/4 mile: 159 mph

0-30 mph.......1,2 s
0-50 mph.......2,0 s
0-60 mph.......2,4 s
0-80 mph.......3,2 s
0-100 mph.....4,3 s
0-120 mph......5,5 s
0-140 mph......7,0 s

Topspeed: app 192 mph at 12.000 RPM in 5th gear.

These figures where all printed in an old Road & Track magazine, along with much more technical info.

These Ferrari results from 1974 seem a bit optimistic to me, despite coming from Road & Track.
Certainly with what seems a high gearing in view of the (calculated ?) topspeed mentioned.

In 1974 Yardley McLaren advertised their M23 reaching 100mph in 6.5 seconds.

In the mid-seventies F1 cars reached about 170 mph on the Zandvoort straight (admit: where these speeds are recorded is important, they could have reached a higher speed closer to Tarzan corner.)

And these 1974 times are better then some recorded in 1988:

Autosport (the German magazin) in November 1988 did a test at the Suzuka-ring with the Mclaren Honda MP4/4 (turbo) - just 30 liters on board. Driver: not a journalist, but Emmanuel Pirro.

Some results:
0-62 mph: 2.8 sec distance travelled: 38,9 metres

0-100 mph 4.4 sec distance travelled: 96,0 metres

0-125 mph 5,6 sec, distance travelled: 159,4 metres

700HP was mentioned for the Honda V6, the 1974 Ferrari probably had something like 475-495 HP

Autosport also mentions that these times were record not with their usual PeiselerRad but with a Datron-Correvit device

Hope this info is useful somehow.

Dick

[Marcov]

This thread is REALLY interesting, I find. Spa-Francorchamps Masta straight seems to be the place where the F1 cars reached their absolutely top speed. And not only the F1 cars. On a motorcycle book I read that australian rider Keith Campbell was clocked at 178 mph on the Mastra Stright on his V8 Guzzi 500cc. (1957 Belgian GP). On a 1966 F1 Belgian GP report - but I think the writer was refering to the 1965 - I read that a F1 car was absolutely flat out from the exit of Burneville to the braking for Stavelot. It means, the report's autor writes, one minute absolutely flat out. I think that only the Isle of Man TT circuit had (and has!) a similar flat out section - not considering the oval tracks of course. But personally I have some doubts that the F1 drivers could REALLY go flat out through Masta kink. Also I have doubts about the 320 km/h speed for Dan Gurney at the 1967 Belgian GP. We'd need to know which kind of speed trap (manual clock or electric clock?) was used and which was the lenght of the measuring base.

But what about Monza? Does somebody have F1 speed trap data for the Monza circuit (until 1971, I mean)? And the Curva Grande? It was absolutely flat out on a F1 car? There is a sort of mystere about that!

Greetings to all,

Marcov

[Geoff E]

Originally posted by Marcov
And the Curva Grande? It was absolutely flat out on a F1 car?

I very much doubt it - in "Grand Prix Legends" (game/sim of 1967 season) you have to brake from 190+mph to about 135mph. Although the sim is not perfect, I don't think it is so wrong.

[Marcov]

Originally posted by Geoff E


I very much doubt it - in "Grand Prix Legends" (game/sim of 1967 season) you have to brake from 190+mph to about 135mph. Although the sim is not perfect, I don't think it is so wrong.

Thanks, Geoff. The problem is that I read - these words are from Giacomo Agostini - "I did Curva Grande on the MV Agusta 500cc. at 275 km/h in sixth gear". And we are speaking of a motocycle! Amon's pole position for the 1971 Monza Gp was made thanks a lap at 251 km/h of average. I think that Curva Grande was *much* faster than 135 km/h. I say this also thinking to the bending radius, that was about 300mt, I think.

Marcov

[Geoff E]

Originally posted by Marcov


Thanks, Geoff. The problem is that I read - these words are from Giacomo Agostini - "I did Curva Grande on the MV Agusta 500cc. at 275 km/h in sixth gear". And we are speaking of a motocycle! Amon's pole position for the 1971 Monza Gp was made thanks a lap at 251 km/h of average. I think that Curva Grande was *much* faster than 135 km/h. I say this also thinking to the bending radius, that was about 300mt, I think.

Marcov

I said 135 mph - say 220kph.

[Marcov]

Originally posted by Geoff E


I said 135 mph - say 220kph.

Yes, yes, I mean 135 mph of course!. I think this is a too low speed for a F1 car of the end of the '60s at the Curva Grande. Consider the bending radius and the g-force. And consider some declarations of the motorcyle riders. For example the motorcycle worldchampion Tarquinio Provini says often that he did that corner absolutely flat out on the Morini 250 GP. Top sped of that bike at the end of the Monza straight was over 200 km/h. I think a F1 car of the end of the '60s cornering there at least at 250-260 km/h.

[Mohican]

Somewhat off topic, I saw an in-car video the other day - complete with on-screen digital rev counter and speedometer.

It showed Marcus Grönholm's Peugeot 307 WRC hitting more than 190 km/h (nearly 120 mph) - on a snow-covered, narrow, gravel road on the recent Swedish Rally...

Having seen this kind of road in real life, I find this at least as impressive as going flat out at Monza.

Doing so back in the days of a collapsible tin-foil special (i.e. pre-carbon fibre tubs) was something else, though.

[Dave Wright]

Well just to bring us back on topic, in his lovely new book written with Doug Nye, Jack Brabham reports reaching 172 mph at Spa in 1966. This seems to accord well with Surtees' figure of 176 mph for the Ferrari 312. Of course the speeds quoted are probably worked out using the charts they had rather than by a speed trap.