227 replies to this topic

[The Vulcan]

The report in Atlas F1 talked about Ron Dennis featuring how big the American market is and particularly how the NASCAR series is generating revenue while having a large fan base - something which the F1 series should emulate.

How can F1 compare with the NASCAR series and be as attractive - pulling in the fans and sponsors, and being as great as this series?

[dick]

I'd rather F1 remain a niche sport than see it anything like NASCAR. I could care less if it's popular or not. Careful of what you wish for.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by The Vulcan
The report in Atlas F1 talked about Ron Dennis featuring how big the American market is and particularly how the NASCAR series is generating revenue while having a large fan base - something which the F1 series should emulate.

How can F1 compare with the NASCAR series and be as attractive - pulling in the fans and sponsors, and being as great as this series?

Almost as many people watch one F1 race, as the entire NASCAR season (36 races). Which is the niche sport?

[RX-7]

Originally posted by dick
I'd rather F1 remain a niche sport than see it anything like NASCAR. I could care less if it's popular or not. Careful of what you wish for.

Agreed! The last thing I want to see, are millions of "here today gone tomorrow" fans, jumping on the gravy train. It's hard enough for me to deal with CART's similarities to "NASTYCAR" much less the "Premier series".

[GDoering]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld


Almost as many people watch one F1 race, as the entire NASCAR season (36 races). Which is the niche sport?

Exactly. NASCAR is really only popular in the US and a niche sport everywhere else in the world whereas F1 is popular nearly all over the world while being a niche player in the US. I'd prefer to be in F1's shoes. Really what Ron Dennis wants is the American corporate sponsorship money but attracting the interest of the American public to F1 has been an ongoing question for as long as I can remember.

[scurrg]

NASCAR is on prime time when people are looking to TV for some entertainment. People just aren't looking for entertainment early sunday morning.

You've got to go out of your way to follow F1 on this continent. A lot of the races last year for me started at 6AM, mountain time. So you've either got to get up early on a Sunday or tape it and avoid the news all day until you're ready to watch the race.

The vast majority of people just couldn't be bothered.

[dgsg]

"You've got to go out of your way to follow F1 on this continent. A lot of the races last year for me started at 6AM, mountain time. So you've either got to get up early on a Sunday or tape it and avoid the news all day until you're ready to watch the race."

You get (1) hour more sleep than I do! Nascar/WWF I do not see any difference.
Dan

[HBoss]

Find way to bring the audience closer to the show. Bring people closer to the drivers, cars, pit, padock facilities, testing venues.

They should bring people closer to all of the action.

[Cociani]

I only hope that F1 does not comprimise the attributes that make it great to hopelesly attempt to infiltrate the U.S. market. Americans will never have more than a passing interest in F1 when one of their own is racing at the front of the pack. I don't think it really matters, there are around 6 billion people on this planet and only a few hundred million are in the U.S. F1 should focus on improving their core market in Europe and expand into new markets in asia etc. where the international nature of the sport will be appriciated instead of scorned.

I say what I have said living in North America, if F1 were just like NASCAR I would not watch it. Nothing agaist NASCAR but I just don't find it as interesting as F1. I like the fact that it takes some effort to be an F1 fan. That I have to wake up at some un-godly hour to watch a race. For god's sake people lets not dumb it down.

[Zackley]

We do our sport a disservice in trying to compare F-1, as motorsport. to NASCAR. as entertainment.

The similarity ends at four wheels and loud motors, beyond that it's apples and oranges.

[Don Capps]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Almost as many people watch one F1 race, as the entire NASCAR season (36 races). Which is the niche sport?

I've always found these numbers tossed about by the FIA as both suspect -- due to the way those numbers are generated (but that is another story for another day) -- and perhaps irrelevant to a large degree. One reason I say this is because of the influence that NASCAR has had on how many series across the globe now conduct their series. The model for how cars and teams look and conduct themselves seems to be based more on the NASCAR model than the F1 model.

F1 is essentially focused inward with the teams being the epicenter of the universe. The team principals and drivers assume an aura perhaps more akin to Perfumed Princes and their vassels than mere mortals -- at least to countless fans. The literally exclusive nature of F1 seems to have an appeal that draws many to the sport. The popularity of F1 worldwide is perhaps based as much on a sense of elitist superiority as any actual enjoyment of the sport. This sense of superiority is also demonstrated by the repeated emphasis on the high level of technology employed and the sheer drama of the spectacle.

NASCAR Nextel Cup Series racing -- along with the NASCAR other series such as the Busch and Craftsman Truck Series -- differs dramatically from F1 in being inclusive. That is, if you have a car and it passes technical inspection, a properly licensed driver and can qualify for the race, you're in. The NASCAR world is focused on the spectators in the stands and in front of the television screen since those running it are the promoters. NASCAR is less concerned with the technology behind the scenes than the performance on the track. The press have open and near-complete access to the teams before, during, and after an event, something that is in stark contrast to F1 where drivers almost have to be threatened to attend a press conference.

F1 is composed of one sort of smoke, mirrors, and hokum and NASCAR of another sort. People see and hear what they want to see and hear.

NASCAR is constantly -- and caustically -- belittled and desparaged by many here. By Europeans since if it is American it simply can't be very good -- perish the thought that motor racing should be "entertaining," and by fellow-traveling Americans who equate popularity with being low-brow and not smacking of properly elitist.

Let's be very honest, if NASCAR were in Europe and F1 in America, NASCAR would be praised and F1 scorned. This is simply another one of those Our European Culture is Superior to Your American Culture deals. Although I still like F1 (GP) -- and have for over 50 years now, presently I find NASCAR far more enjoyable as a series.

[ScudBoy]

Originally posted by scurrg
NASCAR is on prime time when people are looking to TV for some entertainment. People just aren't looking for entertainment early sunday morning.

You've got to go out of your way to follow F1 on this continent. A lot of the races last year for me started at 6AM, mountain time. So you've either got to get up early on a Sunday or tape it and avoid the news all day until you're ready to watch the race.

The vast majority of people just couldn't be bothered.

wa wa wa

In Australia we have to get up at 2-4am for the whole European season just about....

[Mat]

Originally posted by Cociani
I like the fact that it takes some effort to be an F1 fan. That I have to wake up at some un-godly hour to watch a race. For god's sake people lets not dumb it down.

It really comes down to a superiority thing doesnt it. Many people like to feel that what they enjoy watching, say f1 for example, is far more exciting, skill based, etc than anything else that could possible be on offer.

Originally posted by ScudBoy
wa wa wa

In Australia we have to get up at 2-4am for the whole European season just about....

What the hell part of Australia do you live in?!?!

[Cociani]

Originally posted by Mat


It really comes down to a superiority thing doesnt it. Many people like to feel that what they enjoy watching, say f1 for example, is far more exciting, skill based, etc than anything else that could possible be on offer.

Nonsence, I like good Beer and good wine. More people in the world drink Beer than wine but wine is more expensive by volume. Shouhld wine be made to taste more like beer to attract more consumers or should beer taste more like wine to sell at a higher price?

The two series are incomperable. The only two things they have in common is that they are both done in four wheeled vehicles and both very comercially sucsesful.

I am not an F1 snob Don Capps, I love all sorts of different forms of motorsport. Each series has its charm. NASCAR is a drivers series, the cars are easy to understand and the racing is close. F1 is highly technical and political, it is a pagent as much as it is a racing series. F1 can get dull at times but can also be amazing as well. I don't care whether the average Amerian is oblivious to F1, if they only watch NASCAR power to them. If NASCAR started running mostly road courses in order to expand into Europe most of its fans would be offended. Why should f1 comprimise itself to apeal to a market it clearly will never have.

It is not about superiority but rather common sense.

[troyf1]

Great post Don...nicely sums it up IMO

I have to admit I got grim satisfaction from seeing Ron Dennis scratching his head over why NASCAR is as successful as it is. I've been a fan of F1 and NASCAR since the mid 80's. I've watched both series grow over the years. I finally got to attend my first F1 race in 2002 and my first NASCAR race in 2003. I don't think one can REALLY understand how far NASCAR has progressed over the years until one actually attends a race. You can pretty much throw the myth of the stereotypical NASCAR fan out the window IMO. Yes you have your beer drinking good 'ole boys that go to the races but in the same respect you also have Lexus SUV driving soccer mom's who attend them also. The demographics of NASCAR has completely changed over the years with the slow decline of tobacco sponsorship and the introduction of various other sponsors mentioned in the article. NASCAR's number one focus is on the fans. That IMO is what keeps the stands packed and people tuning in week in and week out.

[themark]

My girlfriend sort of summed up NASCAR for me:

"The cars have lots of pretty stickers on them"

Having been out of US circulation for over 5 years, I haven't paid much mind to what was happening in that series, but I can understand the appeal of it based purely on what has been mentioned above as "access". It's easy to relate to NASCAR, whereas, people "dream" of relating to F1. The comment about high-brow exclusivity being the draw of F1 is correct IMHO. The elitist sword cuts both ways though, and the culling of fans, in favour of finaciers instead, will have a long term negative effect on the sport. This is of course, a Bernie thing. He has made it into an exclusive club.

[Arrow]

Originally posted by Don Capps

NASCAR is constantly -- and caustically -- belittled and desparaged by many here. By Europeans since if it is American it simply can't be very good -- perish the thought that motor racing should be "entertaining," and by fellow-traveling Americans who equate popularity with being low-brow and not smacking of properly elitist

Let's be very honest, if NASCAR were in Europe and F1 in America, NASCAR would be praised and F1 scorned. This is simply another one of those Our European Culture is Superior to Your American Culture deals. Although I still like F1 (GP) -- and have for over 50 years now, presently I find NASCAR far more enjoyable as a series.

No.Its belittled because it isnt very good.
Not in the true context of motor racing anyway.
Its a dumbed down spectacle at its simplest for the simpletons.
For the ones who dont care for the artistry of true motor racing,only that there are a bunch of cars all bunched up going round and round in circles performing worthless passes every 30 seconds and that there is a good chance of seeing a huge wreck at any moment.

And Its not isolated to America because of some European culture superiority complex,its simply because rednecks dont like crossing the border.

[lanius]

Originally posted by Arrow


No.Its belittled because it isnt very good.
Not in the true context of motor racing anyway.
Its a dumbed down spectacle at its simplest for the simpletons.
For the ones who dont care for the artistry of true motor racing,only that there are a bunch of cars all bunched up going round and round in circles performing worthless passes every 30 seconds and that there is a good chance of seeing a huge wreck at any moment.

And Its not isolated to America because of some European culture superiority complex,its simply because rednecks dont like crossing the border.

Exactly 100% true.

I can't believe that someone claims that I hate NASCAR because it's an American sport.

**** is ****, it doesn't matter where it's from.

[skinnylizard]

i think its unfair to deride NASCAR for what it is. i always looked down upon it but in the end it is a successfull series that has a strong following and is begining to expand slowly outside continental america.
they have a large number of teams, superstars and offer a helluva revenue stream to those who do well. might not be as strong as F-1 but costs to run a team are not as high either. but most of all i think the coolest thing is that NASCAR people are accessible. i was driving through upstate NY and we stopped somewhere near Niagra or mabe was Ithaca cant recall. but they had all these people over from some chevy team with a car - letting fans sit in the car, havin a chat just in general hangin out with people.so that was good for gettin even people who arent fans invovled...
F-1 is great. i love it. its worldwide too. but it does have a financial cost involved which is far greater than NASCAR....
is that bad?
dunnow

[skinnylizard]

Originally posted by Arrow


No.Its belittled because it isnt very good.
Not in the true context of motor racing anyway.
Its a dumbed down spectacle at its simplest for the simpletons.
For the ones who dont care for the artistry of true motor racing,only that there are a bunch of cars all bunched up going round and round in circles performing worthless passes every 30 seconds and that there is a good chance of seeing a huge wreck at any moment.

And Its not isolated to America because of some European culture superiority complex,its simply because rednecks dont like crossing the border.

i think its fun to talk and joke bout that. but its way outta line to really believe that. i think f-1 for a while has been pretty far removed from the 1930-1990's version and the spirit of motor racing as u called it.
its not that far fethced that some people truly enjoy that spectacle and they enjoy the accesability that is provided. i think NASCAR treats its fans extremely well and takes them in. u never get that feeling from F-1.
i dont enjoy NASCAR..its not something i am used to. but this we europeans are better than them is a pretty lousy way to think..

[Mat]

Originally posted by themark
My girlfriend sort of summed up NASCAR for me:

"The cars have lots of pretty stickers on them"

Thats so true! We are pretty lucky F1 cars dont have stickers all over them. How absurd is that, imagine a company paying millions of dollars to someone, to put a pretty sticker on your car. Who would ever have thought.

Originally posted by Arrow
No.Its belittled because it isnt very good.
Not in the true context of motor racing anyway.
Its a dumbed down spectacle at its simplest for the simpletons.
For the ones who dont care for the artistry of true motor racing,only that there are a bunch of cars all bunched up going round and round in circles performing worthless passes every 30 seconds and that there is a good chance of seeing a huge wreck at any moment.

And Its not isolated to America because of some European culture superiority complex,its simply because rednecks dont like crossing the border.

I never realised there was a true context of motor racing. Silly me, here i was thinking all you needed was a motor, some fuel, tyres and a desire to get to the chequered first. how ignorant of me.

those worthless passes you talk about, only occur in 4 out of 36 races. Enough to judge the series?

Fact is, rednecks dont need to cross the border. Its not a fault of their society, its just enevitable bi-product. They have everything available to them. There would be a race in almost every corner of the USA, with coverage at a decent time. Here in Australia V8's supercars are king. And probably the only reason they turn right as well as left is because of our british heritage.

[tony]

This seems to be a never ending topic on here.

Apples and oranges.....

Analogy: Soccer vs basketball.

Soccer is a game which requires a completely different set of skills than b-ball. Soccer has a small number of scores and exciting events. But when something does happen it's a bigger deal and fans go riot in the street. Basketball, on the other hand has constant scoring and something always occuring. Certainly it's OK for a person to like to both. Do soccer fans go around saying that basketball is ****? Of course not...

[CampioneFerrari]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld


Almost as many people watch one F1 race, as the entire NASCAR season (36 races). Which is the niche sport?

Very true. I for one am not a fan of watching farmers drive race cars in circles.

[tifosi]

Originally posted by scurrg
A lot of the races last year for me started at 6AM, mountain time. So you've either got to get up early on a Sunday or tape it and avoid the news all day until you're ready to watch the race.

You must live in a relative hotbed of Formula One in the USA. I could watch very single news program all day Sunday, including the sports channels and never know who won a Formula One race. If I'm very luckly there will be a short 25 word blurb in the paper on Monday at the bottom of the 3 page NASCAR story (no, I do not live in the south).

[tifosi]

Originally posted by themark
My girlfriend sort of summed up NASCAR for me:

"The cars have lots of pretty stickers on them"

I hope she's REAL good in the sack cause man what an airhead

[troyf1]

Originally posted by CampioneFerrari


Very true. I for one am not a fan of watching farmers drive race cars in circles.

Another stereotypically pithy comment about NASCAR....congrats

[GerardF1]

Firstly let me state that I am an avid F1 fan and truly believe that Nascar is at best a faster version of the Kentucky Derby run for more laps.

What Nascar has done is drag itself from a "rednecks and bootleggers" image to one of more respectability. It is mostly window dressing but like many things appearences count for a lot.

They have gone about treatuing there series as a source of entertainment and have done whatever is necessary to make their image appealing to sponsors. Where else can a manufacturer of candy ( M&M's spring to mind) spend a relatively few millions of dollars and get the bang for their buck. I always wondered how much TicTacs paid to have a small piece of advertising on Ferrari. I am sure that it was a lot more than M&M's paid.

Nascar has developed an advertising place in the largest advertising market in the world. The United States is a consumer country. These companies want to sell to consumers. Nascar gives a way to sell to middle America.

They have a much more open and accessible series. As someone said earlier if you can build it and qualify it you can run it. They have much more open and available drivers and teams to the general public at large.

Some will call me old fashioned but I do remember fondly when if you could get a Cosworth DFV and build a chassis and qualify it you could race in F1. 26 cars in a race was a much better situation than what we have today.

F1 is big business. F1 is the ultimate in motorsports. F1 is getting too exclusive. F1 is becoming, has become, a private members only club. The loss of the smaller privateer teams only hurts F1.

Is F1 better than Nascar? There is no doubt that F1 has better drivers and teams. F1 is the pinnacle. Does Nascar cater to its intended audience? Nascar does a far better job of that than F1 has for many years.

Gerard

[troyf1]

Originally posted by GerardF1
F1 is big business. F1 is the ultimate in motorsports. F1 is getting too exclusive. F1 is becoming, has become, a private members only club. The loss of the smaller privateer teams only hurts F1.

Is F1 better than Nascar? There is no doubt that F1 has better drivers and teams. F1 is the pinnacle. Does Nascar cater to its intended audience? Nascar does a far better job of that than F1 has for many years.

Gerard

Excellent points

[scags]

who cares how many people watch NASCAR? Trillions of flies eat **** for breakfast, that doesn't make it apeal to me!

[Don Capps]

Originally posted by scags
who cares how many people watch NASCAR? Trillions of flies eat **** for breakfast, that doesn't make it apeal to me!

I guess the same could be said for F1 as well then....

[OssieFan]

I think the main thing here is to just enjoy watching motorsport.

[tifosi]

Originally posted by Don Capps


I guess the same could be said for F1 as well then....

Agreed with all your points so far I'm not into NASCAR at all therefore I simply don't watch it, but I have lots of friends that like NASCAR, none of them are what you would classify as a "redneck" or :country" or "southern". and they sure as hell aint farmers.

It has always amazed the sheer number of people whose lives are so empty that they can spend so much time discussing something they supposedly don't like, frankly if I don't want to watch NASCAR, F1, IRL, CART or anything else I simply do something else.

Oh well.

[ehagar]

I do wish F1 viewed its teams as independant contractors that just showed up to the races, rather than franchises. I realize it is wishful thinking, but I think the sport should be able to accept all comers provided they have a licenced driver and a car that meets the minimum specifications.

Watching Speed's coverage of British F3 this year I think when I go to Europe again I'm going to pass on going to an F1 race and go to some national events instead. There is far more actual racing going on in those series.

It burns me that MotoGP and Dorna has adopted a Bernie style Franchise system and some of the sports characters are on the outside looking in. I recognize it has help Sito Pons get Max Biaggi, Honda, and a cigarette sponsor, but so what? Guys like Erv Kanemoto are on the outside looking in, and with the new 4 stroke rules are making the cost beyond the means of some factories. Hell, they are giving WSBK some form of hope through their vision (and WSBK is badly managed....)

I find some Nascar races, such as Daytona and Talledega, rather boring. But some of their races are quite entertaining and it is amazing to see so many drivers on the track. I like how there are drivers in Nextel and Busch the same weekend (hey, remember F1 and F2) and find it sad that in the car world that drivers can't jump between divisions. Imagine if this new GP2 series they are planning had test/third drivers racing in the series.

[alesifan46]

I remember waaaaaay back when Uncle Bernie was asked on why F1 didn't really TAKE in NorthAmerica.....but to be more specific..why it didn't take in the USA...and part of his quote was that "Americans "are brought up not to concentrate for too long." He then went on to compare SOCCER to F1.. and also added that North Americans NEED that CONSTANT ACTION to keep them interested!..And one more quote from MAD MAX..Mosley also says Formula One is like a chess game which is decided on tactics and the timing of pit stops. He compares it to a soccer match in which only one goal is scored yet enough tension is created to keep all the fans happy."
I for the most part agreed with that...When attending an F1 race..I don't find the race all that important...I LOVE the practices and qualifying the BEST!! I know that his quotes started a big thread about him being "anti-american"..but I think he had a point...things have CHANGED...soccer has GROWN like crazy in North America!! and the fan base is quite appreciative of what it is all about !!..the sponsorship things are all about how READILY AVAILABLE the product is!!How was I supposed to know ORANGE was a telecommunication product just by looking at the sticker???...Didn't know that til I bought a cell phone package for my daughter while she was in Europe...How'd I know REDBULL was a drink?? I thought it was a BBQ sauce ..I used to watch NasCab alot till Vince McMahon took it over!! JOKING JOKING!!..I pretty much watch F1 exclusively and follow F1 daily..racing is racing..no point gettin' in a pi$$ing contest about which series is better than the other...apples/oranges debate...unless yer talking IRL...then #$&*@'ers.....
Flame suit (Sparco) engaged!!

[chris_canuk]

Making F1 more accesible to the fans would make it more like Champ Cars, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Watching F1 because it's superior or elitist is silly. May as well run out and get some servants at the same time.

F1 won't get the interest here in North America until there are more races (in the US) and more US drivers/teams.

For what it's worth, my wife thinks that the NASCAR cars look cheap and childish with all the logos. She thinks F1 cars are sexy. There ya go. Oh, and she doesn't watch either racing series. Can't stand it.

My personal thoughts about NASCAR aside, for it's intended purpose NASCAR is sensational. It entertains, it's fast, it's loud, it's easy, it makes money. Personally, I find it boring.

I don't think Ron Dennis was indicating that F1 should me more like NASCAR from the racing and/or technical perspectives. I think he was referring to the commercial aspects of the sport.

[Mat]

I dont think Bernie was being racsit with those comments, i think he is wrong as well. Otherwise how do you explain american sports like baseball, and to some extent NFL?

I think what turned NASCAR into such a force within the USA is that they got themselves a very good tv contract, and with a schedule of 30-odd races, between February and November, thats a lot of sundays. then you add the busch and truck races on friday and saturday and you have a regular NASCAR event on almost every single weekend of the year, usually all 3. It created brand loyalty, and out of habit, people will watch, and major sponsors will follow. It just shows that if you can get the support of the media, awareness will grow immensely.

F1 has done the same thing. It has regular race events, and very good tv coverage all over Europe. It is the most publicised form of motor sport within every newspaper, probably excluding spain, and has been apart of society since pre-war. And apart from Europe & South America, most other countries really dont follow F1 that closely.

I am also quite sure NASCAR could become very popular world wide, except it comes up with the same problem. Here in Australia, we are lucky enough to see every NASCAR race live or Same Day Delayed. I dont think there are too many other countries around the world that have it readily available. But it will never be popular in australia, because all live races are shown at about 4am!

[Timstr11]

I think it is more about the Americans and their big car culture vs Europe which does NOT have a car culture. That's why autosport in general will never be as popular here in Europe as autosport is in the US.
F1 is seen as european. If americans would be able to relate to it they would tune in.
Nascar is as American as can be!

[chris_canuk]

Originally posted by Don Capps


I guess the same could be said for F1 as well then....

[red 2]

F1 x What ?

As I read this week......"It´s not a motor sport. It´s like a gladiator figth. No finesse....no sence..."

[Vilenova]

Originally posted by Arrow


No.Its belittled because it isnt very good.
Not in the true context of motor racing anyway.
Its a dumbed down spectacle at its simplest for the simpletons.
For the ones who dont care for the artistry of true motor racing,only that there are a bunch of cars all bunched up going round and round in circles performing worthless passes every 30 seconds and that there is a good chance of seeing a huge wreck at any moment.

And Its not isolated to America because of some European culture superiority complex,its simply because rednecks dont like crossing the border.

Wow.
Nice put down. It would carry more weight if you actually had a clue about what you were putting down.
Why don't you explain to me the "true context" of motor racing? I like F1 for the technology, the cars, the tracks. Unfortunatly the drivers are, for the most part, pampered primadonnas. Competitiveness in F1 is based solely on how much money you can bring to the table.
I would rather watch a race where there are 20 drivers with a shot of winning than 1 - 3 drivers.

I would rather be labeled a simpleton and take my family out to a race knowing we were going to see some close battles and great racing and get a few autographs, than some highbrow wanna-be with the name wanker secretly tattooed on their arse posing for every camera and screaming Schuuummmmeeeee or Keeemeeeeee. Rednecks eat caviar too.

I'll always love F1, it's the elitest attitude of alot of it's fans that is a complete turnoff.

[Vilenova]

Originally posted by OssieFan
I think the main thing here is to just enjoy watching motorsport.

Exactly.

[dick]

NASCAR is pure mass marketing for, I hate to say it, the rather dim witted. It never ceases to amaze my the people I know that are deeply in debt, but still buy all the stupid T-Shirts, Hats, models, etc. that are grossly over-priced when they can barely make ends meet. The same people also spend hundreds on necessary things like tattoos. I know I'm stereotypng, but I do believe it's the vast majority. Probably 90% Republican too.

[tifosi]

Originally posted by dick
NASCAR is pure mass marketing for, I hate to say it, the rather dim witted. It never ceases to amaze my the people I know that are deeply in debt, but still buy all the stupid T-Shirts, Hats, models, etc. that are grossly over-priced when they can barely make ends meet. The same people also spend hundreds on necessary things like tattoos. I know I'm stereotypng, but I do believe it's the vast majority. Probably 90% Republican too.

Actually the "sterotypical" NASCAR fan is a southerner and a redneck and very VERY much a Democrat, with total loathing for the Repulican Party.

The actual NASCAR fan is a corporate executive or a professional who would very much despise tatoos or piercings or anything else and has plenty of money to bloe on whatever they want including motor homes costimne 100s of thousands of dollars, private aircraft, and Lexus vehicles.

No different than hockey's supposed "blue-collar" fan, total myths perpetuated by complete ingornance. You sound like one of those "sterotypical" Europeans who think that every American is like one of the characters from Dallas or Beverly Hills 90210, have zero clue as to what the vast majority even is.

[troyf1]

Originally posted by dick
NASCAR is pure mass marketing for, I hate to say it, the rather dim witted. It never ceases to amaze my the people I know that are deeply in debt, but still buy all the stupid T-Shirts, Hats, models, etc. that are grossly over-priced when they can barely make ends meet. The same people also spend hundreds on necessary things like tattoos. I know I'm stereotypng, but I do believe it's the vast majority. Probably 90% Republican too.

Tell me this. What about the F1 fans who spend countless amounts of money on the same type of items. Because they follow F1 does that make them any less dimwitted? Wtf does a tattoo have to do with anything? I've seen plenty of F1 fans with tattoos also. Your making generalizations about NASCAR fans yet those same generalizations can be made about F1 fans also.

[Math Soucy]

Okay, something is really bothering Mr. Capps, and, he has some serious issues with purported “arrogant” F1 followers. I’ve embolden selected lines from his earlier post and have attempted to question some of the assertions.

The team principals and drivers assume an aura perhaps more akin to Perfumed Princes and their vassels (sic) than mere mortals -- at least to countless fans. You’re depiction of F1 team bosses and drivers is just as abhorrent and inaccurate as those who refer to NASCAR drivers as hayseeds, hilljacks, rednecks, bootleggers.

The popularity of F1 worldwide is perhaps based as much on a sense of elitist superiority as any actual enjoyment of the sport. This sense of superiority is also demonstrated by the repeated emphasis on the high level of technology employed and the sheer drama of the spectacle.

Hmmm. Let’s see. I was reared in the hookworm and rickets belt of the South, so I guess I must somehow distill all my enjoyment of F1 from its mercurial, elitist aura since the action on track is nonexistent and unstimulating.
That’s hogwash, Don . The high level of technology is one of the hallmarks of Grand Prix motor racing, just as NASCAR has prided itself on a rich heritage and legacy of close, door-to-door, racing.

NASCAR Nextel Cup Series racing -- along with the NASCAR other series such as the Busch and Craftsman Truck Series -- differs dramatically from F1 in being inclusive. That is, if you have a car and it passes technical inspection, a properly licensed driver and can qualify for the race, you're in.
Uhm. As long as it is an American marque, meets all the licensing arrangements attached to NASCAR, and it is not frozen out by the dozens of series regulars who have earned those cryptic qualifying “exemptions”.

NASCAR is less concerned with the technology behind the scenes than the performance on the track. The press have open and near-complete access to the teams before, during, and after an event, something that is in stark contrast to F1 where drivers almost have to be threatened to attend a press conference.

And this is creating such a distraction, that it is now threatening to disrupt the normal day-today operations of the hard working NASCAR crews and technicians, and the drivers are nearly at the edge of exhaustion having to meet mandated sponsorship-appearances, autograph sessions, tv-radio-print interviews, etc. . Now take this to a global scale – and, while you may dispute the FIA’s “spurious” broadcast figures, F1 is a massive world-wide draw and this inclusiveness that NASCAR has maintained from its humble origins and admirably has managed to date, would be next to impossible to accommodate.

Please try not to paint all F1 fans as insufferable elitist bores, basking in the reflected glory of Moet-soaked podium celebrations, quaffing jeroboams of champagne from slippers and nibbling herring filets, pate foie gras and North Sea sprats aboard our yachts in Monte Carlo. Many of us find a special thrill in answering the Sunday bell, munching on cold pizza and swilling the remaining contents from the previous evening’s debauchery while enjoying 90 minutes of F1 and digesting it later on with a healthy dollop of NASCAR.

[D. Heimgartner]

It really amazes me how often Bernie Ecclestone can show himself to be such an utterly ignorant, lucky pr*** that he really is! The guy really is nothing more than a glorified politician: aka a parasite capable of convincing a certain demographic.

All fans all over the world want to see one thing: consistency. They want to see the same drivers race at the same tracks. I think that F1 had a good-sized following in the USA in the 1960s. However, when the circus began to chase the big bucks to Detroit, Dallas, Los Angeles, Vegas, and the Valley of the Ostrich they undermined their fanbase.

[dick]

I didn't say F1 fans were the brightest either. I see the T-Shirt stands jammed packed at the races also. As for the South being Democrat I don't buy that anymore. Where were the so-called red states that went for Bush last election...Nascar country. By and large the South is much more Bible belt conservative than the north. I've been to Nascar races and the people sitting around me sure didn't look like corporate executives to me, and I saw alot more pick-ups than Lexus in the parking lot.

[Cociani]

Originally posted by D. Heimgartner
All fans all over the world want to see one thing: consistency. They want to see the same drivers race at the same tracks. I think that F1 had a good-sized following in the USA in the 1960s. However, when the circus began to chase the big bucks to Detroit, Dallas, Los Angeles, Vegas, and the Valley of the Ostrich they undermined their fanbase.

Very good point! There was a very strong open wheel-sports car racing fan base in the U.S. in the sixties and there were great races at Watkins Glen etc. The SCCA had Can-Am and Trans-Am etc. I had never though about it but perhaps moving the U.S. GP away from its core fanbase was a detrimental factor in the loss of popularity of Grand Prix racing in the U.S. You can't overlook the fact that in the Sixties you had Phil Hill and Dan Gurney and Later Mario Andretti competing in F1. You had Penske and Eagle teams etc. Without that dirrect involvment I doubt f1 would have been that popular in the U.S. even then.

[Don Capps]

As always, this topic shows just how great the divide is that exists within the motor racing community among fans, even within a relatively small neighborhood such as Atlas. However, just like the days of when drivers would hop around from one type of racing to another seem to be a thing of the distant past, so it seems also with the fans.

Oh, Mr. Soucy: your response was really hilarious and such delightful utter and complete hogwash that I shall leave the discussion to you -- and others -- to enjoy since the place must be reeking with all the animal exhaust we have been tossing about on this thread.

[littlewoodenboy]

i am not an elitest boor... ...i am a drunken boor.
if you like a type of racing, good for you.
the only people i detest are those who condemn people for not sharing their views.

the only way m.'s thread could be construed as hogwash is if whomever read it to you failed to help you understand it.