23 replies to this topic

[Hoffy]

Hi ya guys. Just doing a bit of research for a project and need some info on the 1979 and 1980 F1 seasons. So if anyone knows of any use full web sites that may help me could you just leave a reply. Thanx.

[Damop]

In a nutshell, in 1979 GV allowed JS to take the championship because that was the kind of gentleman he was.

[Hoffy]

Oh and guys, I would dearly love to find some useful pictures of the machinery of the time Especially the Williams FW07.

[Ursus]

Head to http://www.forix.com they have all(well, alot) the stats and should have some good pics aswell.

[RaggedEdge]

Hoffy,

Whilst Damop is about right about the team orders in Ferrari back in 1979, you should also note that Ferrari totally dominated that season, winning the WCC with massive margin. Shame really for Gilles to be (mostly artificially) beaten by his team mate in the only chance he had to consistently win races and challenge for the WDC. Why Ferrari did not let Gilles and Jody to fight each other having such a massive advantage, beats me.

In 1980 strangely, despite continuation of both drivers, Ferrari failed incredibly badly, making what happened between 1997-98 in Williams look like a gentle dip. I do not know of worse WCC/WDC title defence by any team ever. But maybe I have not followed history too carefully.

I am in no means expert in those years, and as suggested, http://www.forix.com has plenty of data.

Gilles is of course a somewhat controversial legend. I say controversial, because his career stats were about as good Eddie Irvine's, but of course there are many legends of his outlandish car control and fighting spirit. Real shame he died in 1982, when he had theoretically an excellent chance to challenge Rosberg for WDC.

[mtl'78]

Simple, because back then, no car dominated the way they dominate today. It was a true "drivers championship" here is the 79 table:

http://www.forix.com...&l=0&r=1979&c=7

Jones won 4 out of 6 races to end the season, so Ferrari didn't want to take any chances. When in Monza JS could have sewn up the WDC, while Gilles would have needed 2 races to do it, so they told Gilles to let JS win. He put his nose up JS' gearbox the whole race, and admitted that he prayed for a mechanical failure for about 30 laps. then he made sure and destroy the field at the last race,

(that was the time he outqualyfied the field by 11 seconds in the wet Friday session!)

...so he could claim the "moral" vicory of knowing, had they let him race, he would have won the WDC. Despite this he showed 0 bitterness at Ferrari or in the press. he said: Jody has shown me the importance of consitency rather than going for glory every race.."

[RaggedEdge]

I do not think Gilles totally dominated his team mates in qualifying as a rule. He was more of a racer.

The 1980 total failure for Ferrari looks very mysterious to me. How can that kind of fall from grace happen with such good drivers?

[RedFever]

Hoffy, since chance is that Ragged didn't even watch the 1979 season, I will help and try to explain the team orders that determined the season results.

The were no team orders at Ferrari at season's start. Both drivers were allowed a go to the title. That is 100% comfirmed by the fact that Gilles won 2 GPs initially (ahead of Jody in Jody's home GP in Kilamy!!!!). Never Ferrari asked Gilles to let Jody pass. They both had their chances.

Gilles lost the lead of the championship with a mistake in SPain. He went off a turn and lost position. He repeated the mistake later and score no points. He never regained the lead.

Of course, Gilles is the driver that impressed and deserved more the title that year. Zandvoort, Zeltweg and above all Dijon proved to the world he was, albeit still not fully mature, the best driver in F1.

Unfortunately, also because Gilles's focus was on winning single races, not championships, Ferrari arrived at Monza with Jody in the lead (thanks to Gilles bad luck in Holland and 8 points lost there, the 6 he would have gained without the tire explosion, the extra 2 Jody got from moving up from 3rd to 2nd at the end).

Ferrari had been the dominating car after Ligier's initial stint (Laffitte won the first 2 races), but unlike today's Ferrari/McLaren dominion. In fact, bu then Alan Jones had the best car in the field and Ferrari well knew Jones with his Williams could still win the title.

Like any reasonable team manager would do, Ferrari looked at the points his drivers had, the points Jones had, and the total points still available for grab. It immediately became obvious that a favorable result with Jody winning in Monza would have meant mathematical certainty of the title to Ferrari. In case Gilles would have won instead, Alan Jones would have retained a chance to win the title himself for Williams.

Enzo himself approached Gilles and presented the facts. He then asked the young Canadian (by then clearly Ferrari's favorite, but Enzo was a pragmatist) if he would be willing to help Jody secure the title, guaranteeing the team's higher interests (for Scuderia Ferrari was in fact irrelevant which driver would win the title). Gilles and Jody had a great relationship, they would fiercely compete but with honor and respect. They had become good friends. Gilles realized the decision was against his personal interest, but because of teams' interest he accepted the request and gave his word he would do all he could to help Jody.

The Monza race become a Ferrari triumph. Jones eventually had problems, while the 2 Ferraris lead the rcae. At one point, Jody started lapping so slow in the lead that Gilles got on his side on the Rettifilo. They looked at each other, Gilles searching for comfirm Jody's car was OK. As soon as Jody showed gilles a tumb up, Gilles immediately backed-off and covered Jody's back again. The order remained unchanged until the end. Ferrari had won the WDC.

Ironically, things developed in later races in a way that placed Jody only 4 points ahead of Gilles. Reverse the Monza finish order and Gilles would have been WC with 4 points more than Jody. But back in Monza, Enzo, Jody and Gilles didn't have the luxury of leaving any chances to Williams and opted for a team strategy that would guarantee the world title.

I hope this will help your research and I hope it will help also our Ragged understand what happened instead of questioning without information on those events.

[RedFever]

The 1980 Ferrari failure was no mistery, just a complete mistake from Forghieri and Co.

Lotus had experienced a similar result after their 1978 season. Just for opposite reasons. While Chapman went wild after the triumphs of the illegal Lotus 79 in 1978 (miniskirts, illegal moveable aerodinamic parts created Venturi effect under the ground - also called ground-effect), Colin well knew that since FOCA had allowed him to race an illegal car, in 1980 everyone else would have used the same trick, nullifying his advantage) and in 1979 presented an extreme car with misiskirts even in front and resulted in a car way too complicated to allow any practical positive result, Forghieri in 1980, aware of Colin recent mistep, erred for the opposite reason. The 1980 Ferrai T5 was barely any different from the T4, clearly gaining no advantage in performance. The few changes actually compromised the balance of the car and only Gilles in moments of incredible inspiration managed to get some decent result. But the failure had nothing misterious about it, just a srious mistake from Ferrai's chief engineer. He later paid for it, of course.....

[Ellen2]

Incredible how someone who hasn't got a clue of what happened pretends to insinuate mysterious events at Ferrari in both 79 (team orders) and 1980 (car development). If you would have actually watched the seasons, you would not need to comeup with "I do not think" "it looks mysterious" and other BS like that. It doesn't look misterious to anyone who witnessed the season.......!!!

[mtl'78]

It's ok guys don't bite his head off every fan of F1 has an area of expertise... late 70's early 80's ferrari is prime time for me and apparently you guys too Don't you miss that time. To me 1979 was the last time Ferrari had that magical "aura" for lack of a better term. After Forghieri, then Enzo, the team lost something. MS has brought back glory and winning to the team, but it lacks the "magic". A lot has to do with the fact that they wqere until recently a 1 driver team, and that Ferrari winning has more to do with MS than Ferrari, or at least that is the popular impression. Gone are the days of drivers taking pay cuts and giving up no.1 status to join the team...

[RedFever]

mtl'78, of course you are right about Ferrari losing that aurea. A sign of the times. After all, Dennis' McLaren is more victorious than Bruce's McLaren, but certainly has none of that aurea. Same for Mercedes today. It's certainly not Neubauer's Mercedes. Long gone are the days of the Silver Arrows!!!

[Witt]

Red, was the 1980 Ferrari Turbo-Charged?

[Indian Chief]

RedFever,

Reverse the Monza finish order and Gilles would have been WC with 4 points more than Jody.

If you reverse the Monza order, do you seriously expect to Jody to have cruised in the last 2 races like he did? He won the WDC and had nothing left to prove in the last 2 races and didn't give it his 100%.

I hate it when people try to put Scheckter down to try and elevate GV. 1979 never was GV's year. JS was far more consistent than Gilles and fully deserved to win the championship.

[Eric McLoughlin]

The 1980 Ferrari still used the flat 12 normally aspirated engine that had been used in various forms since 1970. They were developing a turbocharged V6 unit which eventually replaced the 12 cylinder engine in 1981. The main reason why their fortunes diminshed so much in 1980 was their inability to exploit underbody aerodynamics. By 1980 Williams had perfected Lotus's original concept (as expressed in the Lotus 78 and 79) of using sidepods and sliding skirts to generate suction under the car. Ferrari were not able to utilise full length sidepods because of the width of the flat 12 engine. That is one of the reasons why the turbocharged engine was a V configuration.

Lotus outsmarted themselves with the Lotus 80 which was designed to be almost entirely reliant on underbody aerodynamics. It had a small low set rear wing and no nose wing at all. Even though it looked stunning, unfortunately, its handling was atrocious and in the end Lotus reverted to the 79.

[Ray Bell]

A couple of points:
World Champion team failing badly in following year:
1954... Ferrari fell in a heap, rescued for 55 by being given the Lancia team lock, stock and barrell.
1958... Vanwall, carried almost all before them (two of their drivers vying for the title, another not far behind, Ferrari only in the hunt on reliability) in 1958, a new car in 1959 hardly hit the track... admittedly, Tony Vandervell was ill and losing interest.
1961... Cooper had won most of the races in 1960, but in 1961 took not one as the formula changed.
1966... Lotus, having won two of the three previous titles fell foul once again of lack of preparedness for new fomula... although they did pull a lucky win the US GP.
1968... Brabham, after two titles on the trot, had a spate of engine failures as other teams adopted the FVA and gained speed.
I think there are plenty of such examples of falls from grace... Lotus again as mentioned after Andretti's title year.
As for Gilles and Jody, it's interesting that both arrived in F1 in a very similar manner, both in McLarens if I recall correctly... they were seen as very spectacular new boys with a lot of speed. But Jody had done that a few years before Gilles and had gained experience and patience. 1979 was therefore a logical result. I agree that Jody would have cruised the last two races, but I don't agree that it means he would have won them if he hadn't.

[Billy]

From the book Ferrari Formula 1

1 9 7 9

According to Enzo Ferrari, the 312T4 was the ugliest racing car ever to leave his factory. It's true that those present at the unveiling on 15 January 1979 were taken aback. The car was an orgy of right angles, boxes, cuboids, edges and steep inclines wherever you looked. The driver sat well to the front, while the T4's nose protruded from under a flat "eyelid" like an outraged mollusc. Nor did the sideskirts help in producing an aesthetic appearance, while the surface smoothness betrayed the wing car; the battle against and with the airflow took place mainly underneath.

Nevertheless, the repellent exterior hid a winner, even though the rival Williams FW07 gripped the track better and the Renault RS10 was faster. The current stage in the evolution of the flat V12: 515hp at 12,300rpm.

The season became a duel between two different types of person. True to Darwin, the worst enemy of a Grand Prix driver is his own team-mate. On the one hand, there was the gruff South African Jody Scheckter, who had matured from racing's enfant terrible to a hardened professional.

Gilles Villeneuve, on the other hand, produced the fireworks, a magician in dealing with the masses, although he looked like a kid who had had his scooter taken away too soon and been given a much more dangerous toy. An entertainer in the grey area between being and non-being, Villeneuve scrapped with Renault driver Rene Arnoux for second place at Dijon, a schoolyard brawl played out at 300km/h. And in Zandvoort the French-Canadian limped back to the pits on a bare rim after a puncture, a deadly danger to himself and everyone else. He was regarded as the best no. 2 in the business, winning at the T4's debut in the third race of the season in Kyalami on 3 March, the next Grand Prix at Long Beach on 8 April and the Race of Champions at Brands Hatch a week later too, albeit in a T3 this time.

But Scheckter refused to be intimidated, and cooly replied with victories in Zolder, Monaco and Monza. The fact that Villeneuve followed him there like a shadow confirmed what everyone already knew: Scheckter would be the next World Champion but that the little man behind him was already the faster. And if to underline this, Villeneuve won the last Grand Prix of the year, at Watkins Glen on 7 October. The future, of that there was no doubt, looked rosy.

1 9 8 0

For Ferrari 1980 was an anticlimax after 1979; the black season for the red Scuderia, the blackest ever. Jody Scheckter managed just one meagre fifth place, at Long Beach. In Montreal, the South African, the newly-crowned champion of the previous year after all, even failed to finish. Like his 312T5, he was about to become a discontinued model, and he appeared to see it that way himself.

And what was served up to entertain the fans by the intrepid Gilles Villeneuve, whose charging drives always seemed like accidents waiting to happen, was decidedly better than his points total would suggest: eight points in all, hard earned through two fifth and two sixth places. There were explanations and excuses enough. This season finally saw the true wing cars come into their own, led by the stoically aggressive Australian Alan Jones driving for Williams. Aerodynamics triumphed over sheer power. A 40mm width saving by Maranello on the cylinder heads was no use at all for the last in the T clan line. On the contrary, this Ferrari had lost its reliability which was a byword in the racing world, despite retaining the same power rating of 515hp at 12,300 rpm.

The six cars used retired prematurely sixteen times out of a total of 27 starts. Furthermore, the pace of change was so great that no successful chassis could last more than a season. And the Ferrari 312 T5 was an interim solution, even if it has been conceived in good faith and full of hope like every scion of a good family. The 126 C already had priority. During practice for the Italian Grand Prix in Imola on the second weekend in September, Villeneuve put the turbo-powered novice through its paces, finishing with the eighth best qualifying time, 0.6 seconds faster than the naturally aspirated car in which he started the race. On lap 6, however, the Ferrari 312 T5, chassis number 048, disintegrated against a wall after a blowout. The French-Canadian climbed out of the wreckage dazed but uninjured. A well-drilled team of guardian angels appeared to be keeping a watchful eye over him.

[p][Edited by Billy on 07-09-2000]

[magic]

hi hoffy,

jody was the 1977 sensation winning in the debuting wolf in it's first race, and after he'd won monaco'77 too enzo must have decided he wanted him to come to ferrari ( jody 3 vics total in '77).

when he finally came to ferrari in 1979, every f1-team was building copies of the all-conquering '78wcc "wingcar" lotus 79.
the oddest interpretation of the lotus was the ligier.
in it's first wintertest 2 seconds quicker than the rest.
including lotus.
amazing because the lotus had blitzed the field the year before.

'78 wcc lotus themselves stood still, taking their time to develop the f1-car that would make the lotus 79 look like a truck.
and would dominate in '79 like lotus had done in '78.
at least that was what chapman was convinced of.

i remember everybody holding his breath waiting for colin's next masterpiece, the lotus 80.
then the first spionage foto's appaered ( you must try to get and see them, who can help?)
very low and no ( no ) wings!

when the official pressphoto's were realesed the car and chapman gave away it's secrets.
in the nose the tiniest front spoiler ever, in the back a wing so low, it was as if part of the undertray.
the undertray was sensational.
like a catemaran.
a 10 in the windtunnel perhaps, undrivable at the track.
after a few attempts lotus had to repaint the by then oldfashioned 79, but had lost their advantage.

ferrari stuck to their big, reliable and strong v12 boxer, which had powered them to many wdc's and wcc's the years before.
and had no other option than to build something that had skirts, but wasn't a real wingcar.

you see, the bigger the tunnels, the more venturi-effect there was to be expected.
in case of the lotus 80 too much drag for a '79 car to handle ( remember no stiff carbonfibre chassis those days as introduced by barnhard's mp4 in '80 ).
a small ford cosworth v8 was maybe less powerfull, but much slimmer and less thirsty, allowing for smaller tanks and thus better aero.

team williams was too late with what proved to be the best improvement of the lotus78/79 wingcar concept. dominant in late '79,'80 and '81.
after the ligiers lost their way setupping their 2 vics. wondercar, ferrari started winning races .

gilles was the young ralf schumacher of f1 those days, a real charger, sensational quick on occaission, but no wdc stuff yet.
in contrary to jody who had signed for just one reason, finally become champ after 6 years trying.

at first it seemed that it would never happen for poor jody, but after winning monaco, beating gilles in practice and race he became the firm no.1 again he had been from the start.

mind you, jody had been warned by carlos reutemann, former ferrari no.1 (who left ferrari end '78 for the all-conquering team lotus to finally become champ after 6 years trying).
he told jody to expect an ultraquick, too quick for his liking, teammate in the number 12 car.
jody's was no.11.
jody, teamleader, redfever, in equal cars.
knowing that enzo would make him no.2 without blinking his bad eyes behind the sunglasses, if he would not deliver what both expected to.

enzo loved gilles like his son, but realised he was too juvenile to become champ already in '79.

so for the '79 wdc and wcc jody was his best bet.
he had big plans for gilles later.

magic

[Billy]

Alan Jones wins the 1980 British Grand Prix

[Billy]

1980 Ferrari doesn't have enough downforce for Gilles!


1980 Williams has so much downforce, Alan Jones' outside front tyre is squashed!

[Billy]

Watch this MPG video of this classic duel between Gilles Villeneuve and Rene Arnoux in the 1979 French GP.

[Megatron]

Without totally repeating what has already been said......

James Hunt quit Wolf after Monaco because "the cars were totally dominating and there was not enough driver input".

Niki Lauda walked out on Brabham after Braham had made great strides to get a Cosworth V8 in the back of the car after the Canadian GP, saying he "didn't like the vibration of the V8".

The Alfa Romeo team started up again when it became clear the engines were no longer needed at Brabham. Alfa had hurried up an engine following 1978 that was built to ground effect specifcations, so for 1979 the team ran with a V12 that proablly should have been testing somewhere in Italy rather than being ran in competition.

Ligier scored a couple of suprise victories during the year.

Mario Andretti strugled with the bomb that was the Lotus 80, then spent the year with a revised version of the 79.

[Hoffy]

Thanks for your help guys! But there is some othe things I want to find out, so does anyone know where I can find actual race reports for the 2 seasons(79,80).

Also can anyone enlighten me. Why, as it appears, was the Williams such a dog at the beginning of 79, but by the end of the year it appeared to be the most competive car on the track?

[Billy]

1979,1980