68 replies to this topic

[Nathan]

I have just heard of the passing of Kenny Irwin. This is the second driver now in the last few months that has been killed at the wheel of a NASCAR/Busch race car. I honesty, truley think that Bill France Jr. really needs to wake up and change his version of motorsports. All NASCAR looks for is fan appeal. All they care about is money. I will bet that the average NASCAR team/car owner makes more money than any CART, IRL, GT or F1owner. NASCAR is one of the lowest bugeted series in history, and they pride themselves on this. Well I asy that is the number one reason why NASCAR isnt a sport, its entertainemnt. Its auto racings version of the WWF. Oh, the cars are getting spaced apart. Oh look ;);) "Debris" Time to pull out a yellow flag, bunch em back up.

What has NASCAR done for the automoive industry in the last 15-20-years? Other than give hot rodders better performning carbs, intake manifolds and headers? Nothing. F1, CART and Le Mans (GT Racing) have brought us ABS, Tration Control, Multi-Link Suspensions, Disc Brakes, Fuel Injection and Turbochargers. Note 3 safety features. At the same time those 3 series put together have cost not nearly as many lives as NASCAR in the same time span. So in reality, the whole reason for auto racing in the begininng, to promote and develop new products for everyday people, isnt being fullfilled. Thus NOT making it auto racing. All NASCAR promotes is body styles.

Secondly NASCAR is killing American auto racing (and there drivers). Because Yanks are in so much need of passing and pit stops, that CART and the IRL have lost so many fans to NASCAR. Not to mention drivers. Why drive in CART or IRL? NASCAR is the big thing isnt it? American drivers see a problem in having to pay for their rides. Whats wrong with that? Get a sponsor, and with that money go get a ride, and keep some for your self. Thats what all Brazlians and Europeans do. They not broke. Rubens Barrichello made more money in F1 than what he paid to get a drive. They make their salaries from endorsements. American drivers expect to get paid millions to drive. And everyone wonders why their are no top American drivers in the premier forms of motor sports. They expect everything to fall in their laps.

NASCAR needs to get out this cheap ass mode. They are the second most wealthy automotive related series in the world. With this they can make there cars safer. Screw tube frame chassis' Why do think drivers are dying? The tubes dont absorb any energy, its the drivers. Reduce the weight of the cars, then you will take less energy out of the crashes, and allow better braking to avoid crashes in the first place. Allow carbon fiber, they can afford for it. Allow ABS to help drivers get out of jams. How does ABS help NASCAR drivers? Allow their frickin drivers to survive crashes. I think they need to model NASCAR's cars like the Le Mans GT Cars. Do you think if three NASCAR flying up in the air and into trees all 3 drivers would walk away? So the cars would cost 10 times more. WHO CARES!!! Like I said they can afford it. They make $20-30 million from sponsorship and I know no top 2-car team dont pay more than $20-million a season. Plus dont forget winning purses they get on top.

But now that you have less weight, but you have more speed. Solution. Slow them down. Reduce engine capacity, make restictor plates standard, why go 200mph? Isnt 180mph enough? But no, thats marketing. 200mph for 4 hours. BIG ****ing DEAL!!! I also agree the same with CART. I think on ovals there turbos should be turned off. You dont need 700-800hp to go staright for 2-4 hours.

Simply put NASCAR cares more about the entertainment than safety. F1 is the opposite. They risk fans appeal for safety. Im not saying any series is better. Just NASCAR needs to wake up.

[JayWay]

AFter seeing Nascar.com, I would have to agree with you somewhat. It was pretty disgusting seeing the death of Kenny Irwin appear only as a text link in the news section, wheere above the main story was a promo urging on fans to follow qualifying on the net describing it as "following every eheart pounding lap of excitment!!".. Do they have any class? Or are they just trying to hide the death because it may spoil their image?

[FordPrefect]

Sad news.

Two dead on the same corner at the same track.
Time to take a close look at that facility.

this is from http://www.autosport.com/index.html

NASCAR driver Kenny Irwin was killed today (Friday) during practice for a Winston Cup race at New Hampshire Speedway. The accident comes less than two months after the death of rising star Adam Petty at an almost identical spot on the track.

Irwin's SABCO Chevrolet Monte Carlo hit the wall between turns three and four of the 1.05-mile oval, suffering severe damage on initial impact, before rolling onto its roof.

Eye-witnesses say that the car's throttle appeared to be stuck open going into turn three, but this is yet to be confirmed by NASCAR or the SABCO team. The 30-year-old Indiana driver was taken to the circuit's medical centre, before being airlifted to a local hospital.

FP

[Nathan]

Wasnt that one commentator killed (ex-NASCAR driver) there a few years back too during a test session? I cant remeber his name, I dont mean to sound rude or inconsiderate. He had the short greyish hair with the same color mustache.

[Chris G.]

Oh my God! Jayway is right. Nascar.com is basically ignoring it. These guys are in a fantasy world.

[Joe Fan]

Nathan, I would like to address some of your comments.

1) "I honesty, truley think that Bill France Jr. really needs to wake up and change his version of motorsports."

France shouldn't change much about NASCAR because it is had phenomonial growth. What happened yesterday was an anomaly however it does need to be investigated closely.

Over on the thatsracin.com bulletin board, a poster was there and witnessed the accident. He said that you could hear that it was a stuck throttle and drivers on the track thought it was a stuck throttle too. A stuck throttle is what was hypothesized in the Adam Petty crash that took his life but the throttle wasn't stuck on the investigation of the car after the accident. However, a stuck throttle would more than likely work itself loose in a huge blow. I had a similar situation happen to me with a cruise control device a long time ago. One night I was driving home from work and all of a sudden when I went to slow down on the highway and the car maintained its same speed. I tapped the brake several more times and I still maintained the same speed. It scared the **** out of me so I quickly slammed the gas peddle to the floor and let off. This cause it to unhook itself. If I had a chance to think about this beforehand I would have put the car in neutral and shut the engine off but that would have been my next move. The cruise control was installed by the dealership. I took the damn car back to them, the next day and said I wanted them to take it off the car and give me my money back.

Busch Grand National driver Jimmie Johnson appeared to have a throttle stick at Watkins Glen a few weeks ago and had a violent and huge crash into the barriers. The kind of shunt that killed Gonzalo Rodriguez and sidelined Michael Schumacher for half a season. Jimmie jumped out of his car and onto the roof of his car like he had won a race and he was just fine. Why? The styrofoam barriers absorbed energy and tube frame chassis did its job. Kenny Irwin didn't have this luxury of having these styrofoam barriers on an oval. So he had to absorb the full amount of energy in a smaller timeframe. And keep in mind if you have a stuck throttle on a flat track that doesn't have banking to help scrub off speed, this blow will contain even more energy and the inertia forces put a tremendous stress on the neck. This is why his car was reported to ride up the sides of the concrete wall after impact.

2) "Secondly NASCAR is killing American auto racing"

Not true, CART owners and Tony George are responsible for the position that open wheel racing is in. However, keep in mind that both series have expanded their schedules so the health of both series appears to be improving.

3) "allow better braking to avoid crashes in the first place. Allow carbon fiber, they can afford for it."

If you have a stuck throttle, carbon fiber brakes wouldn't help and probably only facilitate a more violate crash in Irwin and Petty's instance.

4) "I think they need to model NASCAR's cars like the Le Mans GT Cars." NASCAR stock cars are designed for oval racing, not for road racing.

5) "Simply put NASCAR cares more about the entertainment than safety."

If this were true, NASCAR would not have moved towards tube frame chassis, mandated restrictor plates and decreased compression ratios to keep the speed around 200mph. The cars would probably be doing 240mph at Talladega if NASCAR didn't institute these rule changes. Roof flaps were also another inovation that NASCAR mandated to keep the cars from flying up into the air and grandstands at Daytona and Talladega.

The bottom line is that NASCAR needs to look into the throttle linkage issue to see if there is a way to prevent stuck throttles. Until then, perhaps they need to do what Mark Martins crew does, have a NASCAR official check it out three times before the cars goes out on the track. I also hate flat ovals anyway so I hope that the modify NHIS by putting in some banking in the corners of that track as well as widening the turns. It would produce a better more exciting race as well as improving safety.

[cartfan76]

Joe Fan - Yes, restrictor plates make it "safer" by reducing speeds. But where the plate doesn't make it safer is when because it's more competitive due to reduces speeds, you've got packs of 43 cars running together inches apart. With that happening, any tiny error causes the "big one" that all the "bubbas" (one of many terms americans use in place of "redneck") in the infield talk about. THAT is why I don't think restrictor plates do anything worth a squat when it comes to safety.
Regards,
Justin

[Keith Steele]

Joe two deaths in Nascar in two months is an anomaly. But two deaths in Cart means that the series should cease to exist in its current configuration to sum up your posts after Greg Moore's death. Interesting...

[Joe Fan]

Keith, the protection of stock cars is virtually unquestioned. Not the case for the open cockpit and the small tub that protects the legs of drivers in crashes that has crippled some. Kenny Irwin and Adam Petty's deaths were not a question of unadequate protection. If you seen Ricky Craven crash at Talladega in 1997 and Geofrey Bodine's crash at Daytona this year as well as quite a few others, no one would doubt the safety of the tube frame chassis. The tube frame chassis and enclosed roofs do not allow a driver to get hit with debris that could kill them instantly or allow their heads to get rammed into the ground like it did with Greg and Gonzalo.[p][Edited by Joe Fan on 07-08-2000]

[130R]

I've said it before, Ovals are Death Traps. Later

[Keith Steele]

Joe I think you would find the Irwin and Petty families will disagree that it is unquestioned. In fact had they been in open wheel cars it could be speculated that they may not have died as the cars absorb and disapate the energy of the impact. The last driver to die in an open cockpit car making contact with an outside wall was Scott Brayton at Indy in 1996. Soon after the cockpit sides were raised protecting the drivers neck from severe lateral g's. Not the case in a rigid roll cage setup. It protects them from contact with outside forces but doesnt absorb the energy of the impact. I wonder if you will change your mind about taking your daughter to the races to protect her from her viewing a possible death. During your arguments then I had made the arguement that people in glass houses shouldnt throw stones, and you were hurling quite a few stones. My point is this, auto racing will always be dangerous. Up until we put robots in the car, drivers will die. It is the gruesome end to our sport. Nascar just a had a wonderful dry spell. I hope they enjoy annother long one, as do I all forms of motorsport. And you know as well as I do that had Greg been in a stock car and hit with that much force he would still be dead. A body cant withstand that much blunt trauma.

[Cociani]

I am with 130R on ovals.

[Joe Fan]

Keith, below are the death per number of races held ratios since 1994. I used 1994 not to selectively alter the data but to use as a starting point. Keep in mind that 1994 was the last time a F1 driver was killed (Senna and Ratzenberger at Imola) as well as a NASCAR Winston Cup driver (Neil Bonnett in Daytona testing). Rodney Orr was also killed at Daytona during practice in a Winston Cup car but he was a Goody's Dash series driver who has sold his Dash equipment to buy a Winston Cup car. He never officially was a Winston Cup driver nonetheless I have included him in the total.

Deaths/Races held:

NASCAR Winston Cup: 3/217 1.38%
NASCAR Busch Grand National: 1/159 0.63%
NASCAR Craftsman Truck Series: 1/137 0.73%
NASCAR exhibition races in Japan: 0/3 0%
Formula One: 2/107 1.87%
CART: 3/114 2.63%
IRL: 1/40 2.5%

NASCAR stock car series totals: 5/516 0.97%
Major open wheel series totals: 6/262 2.29%

Conclusion: since 1994 there have been twice as many deaths in major open wheel racing (2.36 times more to be exact) than in major NASCAR stock car series per event held.

Since 1995:
NASCAR Winston Cup: 1/185 0.54%
NASCAR Busch Grand National: 1/131 0.76%
NASCAR Craftsman Truck Series: 1/137 0.73%
NASCAR exhibition races in Japan: 0/3 0%
Formula One: 0/91 0%
CART: 3/98 3.06%
IRL: 1/40 2.5%

NASCAR stock car series totals: 3/453 0.66%
Major Open wheel racing totals: 4/229 1.74%

Conclusion: since 1995 there have been two and half times more deaths in major open wheel racing (2.63 times more to be exact) per event than in major NASCAR stock car series per event held.

To answer your earlier, yes I still will bring my daughter to a Winston Cup or BGN race more willingly than a CART or IRL race. She won't see a driver's head rammed into the ground or brutally see a drivers legs hanging out of a car in a violent crash. And mathematically, she will see less drivers get killed.[p][Edited by Joe Fan on 07-08-2000]

[Cociani]

I noticed that most of the open wheel deaths percentage wise were in Cart & IRL my conclusion isoval tracks are definatly more dangerous than road courses. In F1 who do not run ovals had two deaths in one weekend. The track was modifies the cars were improveded safety wise and there has not been a death since. It should also be noted that in the ten years before that horible weekend in f1 there were 0 fatalities in F1. Why don't we stretch your stats back to 1984. Stats can be read many different ways.[p][Edited by Cociani on 07-08-2000]

[Keith Steele]

Numbers are all fine and good Joe. Here watch this. In the year 2000.
Cart 0 in 9. 0%
F1 0 in 9. 0%
Nascar 2 in 21. 9.5 %

Sadly more drivers will die, and if you care to believe that Irwin will be the last Nascar driver to ever die, you are entitled to that belief. The cars are different and provide protection in different ways. No car can guarantee a driver's safety in every type of accident. As I stated earlier they'd both probably be alive if they were driving Cart cars, but that is my belief.

[Joe Fan]

Originally posted by Cociani
I noticed that most of the open wheel deaths percentage wise were in Cart & IRL my conclusion is oval tracks are definatly more dangerous than road courses.

Why don't we stretch your stats back to 1984. Stats can be read many different ways.

Cociani, stats can be read many different ways but I do not have mileage totals to work with since nobody knows how many miles of testing all the teams do in all of the series. The majority of NASCAR races are longer in terms of mileage and length than all F1 races and many IRL and CART races. Also, the fields are larger in NASCAR than in any open wheel series. So really, this is the only way I can analyze this data is through events. I don't think deaths that happened more than a decade ago are really that relevant since many safety improvements have been made since.

As far as your belief that ovals are more dangerous in open wheel series, this is not the case since 1994. It is the case since 1995.

Since 1994 the deaths per race event in open wheel series:

Ovals:
IRL 1/40
CART 1/48
F1 0/0
Totals 2/88 2.27%

Road racing:
IRL 0/0
CART 2/67
F1 2/107
Totals 4/174 2.30%

Note: almost exactly the same percentage wise

Since 1995 it is:

Ovals: 2/82 2.43%
Road racing: 2/148 1.35%

Note: ovals are 1.81 times more dangerous. This is probably largely due to the increased safety in circuit design that F1 has mandated since the deaths in 1994.
[p][Edited by Joe Fan on 07-08-2000]

[Joe Fan]

Originally posted by Keith Steele
Numbers are all fine and good Joe. Here watch this. In the year 2000.
Cart 0 in 9. 0%
F1 0 in 9. 0%
Nascar 2 in 21. 9.5 %

Keith, this time-frame wouldn't be sufficient enough to use for any study. Since 1995, F1 has fortunately had no deaths in 91 races. At 17 races per season, F1 would have to race 5.5 seasons without a death to beat NASCAR Winston Cup's percentage of 1 death in 185 races since 1995. Lets hope all hope and pray that they do but percentage-wise it I wouldn't expect that this will happen.

[gilles27]

First, I went to Nascar.com this morning and was NOT shocked at how Kenny Irwin's death was relegated. The reason is because that is exactly the same way they handled Adam Petty's death. Almost as if to say "We know you already know about it, so back to the action..." Pretty pathetic from what should be the end all in coverage. Not to glamorize, just to report thoroughly.

Second, it's obvious why the ovals are death traps--the walls. Technology has come up with better alternatives than bare concrete, but why haven't we seen them implemented? Indy has installed some at the pit entrance, but that's it. Why this hesitation to make the tracks safer? Perhaps in their need to attract fans with the element of danger, the competing racing leagues don't want to soften the image. Or the blow.

[Keith Steele]

That's fine Joe if those numbers make you believe that the Nascar drivers are still bullet proof, feel free. You can tell someone whose afraid of flying that its the safest mode of travel too, doesnt mean the airplane won't explode in midflight. You bring up an interesting point about F1 having to race 5.5 times more than Nascar. To achieve its mark. My answer to that is yellow flags. Oops the wind blew from the west, better throw a caution. And as far as mine not being able to be used in any study, I disagree. This is what happened halfway through the 2000 season. Though I must appologize to you and to myself for getting caught up in the statistics game, because that wasn't my original point as you know. It was and still is that auto racing is dangerous. Your favorite is more dangerous than my mine is, is of little relevance. The fact remains that none are immune. F1 dodged a huge bullet last year with Diniz. Cart, F1, and Nascar will lose drivers. It is unavoidable. We can only hope they try to minimize the risk. According to your survey, F1 is the safest. Cart is the most dangerous. And Nascar is in the middle. But again I doubt the Petty and Irwin families take much comfort in those numbers. Nascar is not immune to driver deaths. This is why I warned of throwing stones in a glass house. Is any of this sinking in, or is it all too obvious?

[Joe Fan]

Keith, as far as warning me of people who throw rocks that live in glass houses, when did I ever say that NASCAR was bullet proof when it came to drivers death? Never, as I have said before that you can get killed at 150mph as easily as 200mph in any series if you hit just right or get hit at the right angle. I said that then when you made that statement once before. When I questioned the deaths of Moore and Rodriguez, I questioned the safety of open cockpit designs. Both drivers had their head rammed into the ground in their shunts. Adam Petty and Kenny Irwin's deaths were not attributed to the safety and protection of a NASCAR stock car. The design protected both drivers as it has many times over. It was attributed to a stuck throttle and having to the car go from 160mph+ to 0mph in a split second. Someone over on the thatsracin.com bulletin board was there and see Irwin's crash. He said that you could hear that it was a stuck throttle. I also know someone who has seen the incar film of Neil Bonnett's death at Daytona. He said that you could see his head stretch way out from his neck due to the same principle. The neck cannot sustain such inertia forces in any type of car. If you watched the Craftsman Truck series race today at Loudon, Dennis Setzer crashed in turn three and yet he was fine. Why? Because he didn't have a stuck throttle and could slow the car down before impact. So the bottom line here is these deaths are not attributed to the design of the car but to perhaps something with the design of the throttle. You obviously took my questioning and dissatisfction with open cockpit designs the way you wanted. Are you related to F1racer or something? As far as using half seasons, if you would take a statistics course you would know that using such a few number of races would not constitute a valid sample of data. [p][Edited by Joe Fan on 07-09-2000]

[Nathan]

WHOAH..errrrrrrr stop the car. The throttle body is not the pount here. The point is a driver getting killed when the car crashes. My whole point here is NASCAR neeeds to get out fo the stone age and use more up to date saftey technology. Tube frames? What hell. When you have a tube framed chassis it doesnt matter what angle you hit, you are going to get hurt. Steel tube framing comes no where near engery absobtion than carbon fiber, aluminum, kevlar whatever. In addition the cars dont have ABS. I understand their is braking on most ovals, but ABS only comes into play when the wheels lock. I rarely see a NASCAR lock a tire in a corner. Plus since there is soooooooo much passing anyways, it wouldnt hurt to maybe sacrifice a little bit of passing for more safety. But then all the fans will loose interst. BS!

Im sorry but if you NASCAR fans cry when something is done to safety that my lessen racing a bit, you guys are truley ignroant assholes to the tenth degree. How about airbags? Mercedes has them on their GT cars. I dont think things are right when a NASCAR crashes at 100mph and the driver is hurt and needs help out of the car, and a open-cokcpit car can crash at the same speed, and the dirver is beating up the guy who ran him off before the safety marshals arrive. How is when a NASCAR driver crashes he recieves so many rib and lung injuries? NASCAR may not have as many deaths in the race/death area, but it has much more injuries. That is something that has nothing to do with the angle of the crash. Thats pure poorly designed safety.

My point is I understand how dangerous open-wheel cars are. But why cant NASCAR build they cars more like the GT Le Mans cars? Ill bet they are one of the safer typed of race cars around. Pure and simple the owners have the cash to do so. I can ewasily seeing Ford, Chevy and Mopar affording it.

PLUS, PLUS. If throttle bodies have claimed 3 lives in the last few years, what has NASCAR done about it? Hell, 2 F1 drivers get killed and suddenly the cars are redesigned, race tracks are extensivly modifield, everything is turned upside down. NASCAR...jack **** is done. Its a "racing accident" or "thats racing".

I think in the end it is the ovals. Touring cars are built almost the same way. Much less death, much less injuriers, just as exciting, in my opinion more. But boo-hoo to the worlds greatest drivers who only turn right 2 or 3 times a year cant do that. Ovals are American as apple pie right? Well they also kill Americans like your gangs. Ahh Oval Race tracks. As American as apple pie and drug gangs. Sweeta and deadly.

NASCAR is a farce, a show on wheels. That can not be denied. It is a circus, a State Fair. Like I said, what has it done for motorports? What has it technologicly done for the world?

[Keith Steele]

Joe show me a P&L statement that doesnt use quarters, halves and third quarters as a unit of measurement. Think Share holders only get to find out how their investment is doing once a year? Or every 5 years?

So here is where we disagree. You say a stuck throttle killed both Irwin and Petty. You are going off of second hand knowledge from some guy over on that there board over there. (Im not sure your statistic prof. would approve of your fact finding, but lets assume it's true.) I say that if they were in an open wheel car with composite materials made to disperse the energy that they would be most likely be alive today. I also am fairly sure that had Gonzalo(also a stuck throttle) been in a Nascar he'd be alive today. So if in fact we agree that no car is safe in every situation then we can end our discussion. But if you care to believe that in every situation a NASCAR chassis is the best thing to be in in every situation then we disagree. I distinctly remember you saying you would take your daughter to a World of Outlaws or Nascar race before taking her to see an open wheel race because you didnt want to expose her to the deaths. To which I answered an Outlaw driver had just died some six months earlier. To which you replied it was a freak accident. Does this ring a bell? Do the Nascar telecasts allow, "Up with Nascar" subliminal messaging to exist. I just dont see how one whose able to gather so much inforamtion could be so closed to the idea, that Nascar is not the end all. Does Nascar have good points? Sure it does. It also has distinct weaknesses just like every major motorsports, er hell, every major sport does. For the record Razor would have called you a name long ago, and started a new thread personalized just for you. I think I deserve better than that.

[RAD]

Why aren't the tracks safer in NASCAR? Why do they have to have all these useless CONCRETE DEATH WALLS or BARRIERS?

Would it be too freakin hard to take the walls and barriers out? Then they could put in sand, slope it up into a rubber banded tire wall. If that was the norm then Moore, Petty, and Irwin would be alive right now. I am talking about the insides of the curves not the outside. Correct me if I am wrong.

R

[MattPete]

>Since 1995:
>NASCAR Winston Cup: 1/185 0.54%
>NASCAR Busch Grand National: 1/131 0.76%
>NASCAR Craftsman Truck Series: 1/137 0.73%
>NASCAR exhibition races in Japan: 0/3 0%
>Formula One: 0/91 0%
>CART: 3/98 3.06%
>IRL: 1/40 2.5%

The correct method would be to calculate the probability that a driver will die in any race. Therefoe, you need to weight those scores by the number of entrants. Given that NASCAR has 1.5 - 2 times as many entrants as CART or the IRL, NASCAR is even safer than your stats suggest.

I can't stand NASCAR, but I can't knock their safety either. Those tanks are pretty indestructable and feature huge crush zones (maybe not on the sides so much).

-Matt

[Nathan]

RAD, your idea isnt feasable. However even if it was, NASCAR wouldnt go for it because that would mean spectatotrs would be further from the action. First you need a lot of sand, second NASCARs are higher and more top heavy which could cause the car to flip.

OK, Keith just answered my whole point thant NO one has addressed. Why not make NASCARs like GT Cars?

If they did that, then there is no open wheels or open cockpits, and much better safety. GT cars are built like F1, onlky have roofs, more room for drivers to move and covered tires.

The fact of the matter is this. Tube frames are not as safe as everyone thinks. I will back this up with some American history. I hope Art reads this, he can back me up I would imagine.

Back in the 40-70's, at Indy it was thought that the bigger and heavier the car, the safer. They were trying to avoid death, and this approach seemed smart. Make them "tanks" as one person said here about NASCAR's. The thing is, this just caused more deaths. The cars were so heavy, the momentum was greatly increased making the crashes more violent, the stiffness of the cars absorbed no energy, thus placing it on the driver, and killing him. Do a search yourself. More drivers were killed during this time at Indy than any other. Yet as soon as they went to aluminum and carbon monocque cars, that were lighter, more energy absorbant and the incidents of death fell sharply.

A 3400lbs car crashing at 130mph into a concrete wall is a huge impact. As for those of you who no little about weight and momentum please read this.

If a Ford Ecursion (whih weighs 7,688lbs) was to crash into a stopped car at 31.8 mph the damage would be so great, that a 85-87 CRX (which weighs 1975lbs) would have to hit the same parked car at 128.9mph to create the same amount of force and impact.

A NASCAR will create 3 times more force in an accident than a F1 car at the same speed. Now those big 2.25" tube frames can only absorb so much of that. The driver gets the rest. So even if a NASCAR could absord the energey in a crash like a F1 or CART car, the driver would still recieve upwards of 2-3 times more force on his body. Now you think how much force is applied now, considering NASCARs are no where near as absobant than F1 and CART cars. I bet that number is in the 5 region.

All this means is lessen the weight of the cars. Lower the HP to keep Lbs/HP the same and go from there. Like I said, whats the point of a 800hp car that just drives straight? A 600hp, 2800lbs cars will pass each other just as well. If they wont accept half million cars, then atleast do this.

[MattB]

First off, it is very sad that Kenny Irwin has tragically lost his life. His friends and family will be filled with pain and anguish over his passing.

Second, Joe Fan, I have read numerous posts from you after an open wheel driver is killed and you carry on about how the sport should be abolished. Then NASCAR drivers are brutally killed and you pass it off as if it is no big deal, using contrived statistics to justify why even though a Cup driver is killed open wheelers are worse.

Third, Joe Fan, you go on and on about seeing an open wheeler's helmet get bashed into the ground and being killed. Guess what? Even though you couldn't see Kenny Irwin inside his car, there was a living breathing human being inside there. Enclosed cars seem to breed a frightening sense of complacency towards human life. When those huge steel bombers wad up there are people inside...they aren't controlled remotely from the pits.

[PDA]

There is some real nonsense being perpetrated in this discussion. How about some facts?
In the three recent NASCAR deaths, in each case, the integrety of the roll cage was not compromised. The deaths were caused by the massive deceleration. Compare the crash at Watkins Glen, where a WC car went head on into the guard rail, probably at somewhere between 60 and 100 mph. The reason the driver wasn't injured was that the ARMCO did its job and deformed (about 3 feet), giving more controlled, gradual deceleration. A problem at Homestead and Loudon was that the wall did not deform, increasing the deceleration to a lethal level. Whether that crash was caused by a broken throttle, brake or whatever is irrelevent. Such failures can and will happen again, so similar impacts can be expected. Much more important than having a pissing contest about which form of racing is more dangerous is to try to put forward some constructive thoughts about how to reduce the chances of such injuries and deaths occurring. Here is one idea:

F1, CART etc have found that tyre barriers, properly constructed and faced with travelling walkway belts provide a very good method of attenuating impact forces without themselves being destroyed. This typre of barrier is used amongst other places, on the oval in Rio used for the CART race, and proved its efficacy on a number of occassions in the last couple of years. I would have thought that it should be possible to incorporate a barrier of this type in the retaining wall at tracks like Loudon, Homestead, plus many others. During the "Inside NASCAR" programme on TV the week before last, Michael Waltrip made a plea for such barriers to be introduced, so I am not alone in this thinking. BTW, the tyre barrier or similar would be much better than the foam blocks, as the blocks disintegrate, and the race would have to be stopped while the barrier was rebuilt. The tyre barrier would be more likely to retain its integrety. There may well be "better" construction methods which could achieve similar results, but the tyre barrier is readily available and known to work.

[Megatron]

Things I think NASCAR could do to help saftey (and don't give me that "they can't afford it, Gordon's sponsor is paying $20 million a year plus that big fat new TV deal).

Carbon fibre chassis - stronger, lighter, more durable.

Engine Electronics allowed - perhaps that would help the throttle sticking thing with engine managment systems.

Smaller engines with fuel injection to make it run slower and smoother.

Carbon fibre brakes - a given considering NASCAR races mostly on ovals. Jimmy Johson had brake faulire at the Glen as well.

Of course, this is just a pipe dream because the yahoos in charge of NASCAR are
NEVER going to allow anything new or exciting on the cars. That is the last thing they would ever do.

As stated before, NASCAR is just one big walking commerical. It doesn't suprise me a bit that they would have an advert for a truck race ahead of a headline for a driver who just lost his life.

It also did not suprise me to hear that NASCAR was so "concerned" about Rusty Wallace winning all the poles that NASCAR went as far as to tear down his engine in the garage INVITE OTHER TEAMS TO SIT AND WATCH AND TAKE NOTES ABOUT WHAT THEY FOUND!!!

And it doesn't suprise me one bit that they are pushing for common templates next year so the cars will all look indentical, even though Ford and GM have both said that that is the main reason they are in it (any "technology" that they learned from NASCAR dried up during the 80's as todays road cars are much more advanced as far as construction, electronics, road handling, etc).

It also doesn't suprise me to think that at the start of the year NASCAR issued a press release that basically said NASCAR owned everything written, said, thought about or read that has to do with NASCAR by every fan, driver, media, etc, something that infurated the press.

NASCAR is a farce. They are trully the WWF of racing.

I trully do like some of the drivers, like both the Gordons, Stewart, Pruett, etc, but I care NOTHING for the management structure. They are a bunch of guys making money and don't care about anything else. And in case you think I am baised, one of the main men in charge of NASCAR was born and raised right next to where I live! The people running NASCAR is the equal of Hank Williams Jr running NASA!

I am deeply sadened by Kenny Irwins death, but I am also sad that NASCAR will proablly not take many actions to correct it (and I am talking about real actions, not "installin another bar in the cage").

And Joe Fan, I have heard you say countless times that CART is evil because the cars are so dangerous. But its all right for NASCAR to have two deaths in 8 weeks? And how about all the injuires? Just last week Terry Labonte was knocked out for several minutes and had a concussion because of that great "saftey innovation" of restrcitor plate racing.

[The Mirror]

Carbon Fibre chassis in NASCAR?!?
Good Lord.
Building a car that size out of carbon fibre would be so insanely expensive, it would eliminate all but a handful of teams from the series. Its also a ridiculous idea from this perspective:
NASCAR wrecks are rarely single car deals. Carbon fibre indeed provides better impact absorption than steel, but once the structural integrity is compromised, thats it. NASCAR cars are tubeframe because they often have to take multiple impacts during an incident, and hold up to those impacts. See Geoffrey Bodine's wreck at Daytona this year for a good example.
You think NASCAR has too many yellows now? How about carbon fibre fragmenting all over the track after every bump and nudge?
Carbon Fibre brakes wouldn't do a darn thing on big ovals, as the brakes are rarely used and they would never be up to temperature. Where's the advantage in that?
As to all of you saying NASCAR is like the WWF, why don't you e-mail Kenny Irwin's family and let them know you feel that way. I'm sure they'd appreciate it.

[Slicks]

NASCAR is another example, right up there with WWF, of the American fan's thirst for bloodlust in sport. It's sad that someone has died - but the series is not worthy of discussion on a site catering to an actual racing series.

[Ray Bell]

Regarding the tyres and walkway impact absorbers, the issue would be to anchor the walkway to the track so it wouldn't lift and lead to a displacement of tyres and subsequent decapitation of the driver. Agreed, the tyres would regain their shape... so how do you go about it all?
There really shouldn't be a great cost involved in the scrap tyres, I guess the walkway isn't cheap, or is it available in used condition?
Devising anchoring methods would come next, and the project is on the way to saving lives.
See, simple, we can solve any problem here.
One reason, by the way, that I suggested the styrene blocks was that they wouldn't bounce the car back out on the track to the same degree. I think replacements might be able to be fitted fairly quickly, and crash trucks could carry a supply easily enough.

[Megatron]

The Mirror,

Cry me a river....

Never use a lot of braking on ovals? Martinsville? Bristol? New Hampshere? Pocono? Richmond? Even the first turn at Darlington requires quite a bit of braking! Homestead?

And not up to tempeture? Check out the glowing brake discs at Richmond during the night race or the brake cams at Martinsville.

Actually do some research before you post something stupid like that again.......

Also, my problem with NASCAR has never totally been with ,many of the drivers, it is with the organization and direction of the sport and the puppets that run it.

[RAD]

Nathan,

I think you mis-understood me just a bit. I'll try to explain. I am not talking about modifying the outside walls next to the stands. I am proposing a change to the infields. I understand your point about the cars flipping. But. I believe that we have the technology to keep these drivers alive. First they should take out all concrete barriers and cross walk supports. Get rid of them! What use are they anyway? Then laying down deep beds of sand to contain the crashes and then tire walls lined with strong rubber to stop the cars. I think it is feasable. In my opinion just one life is worth changing the tracks.

[The Mirror]

Read a little more closely, meg, and you will discover that I said brakes are rarely used on BIG ovals.

[JV 1]

While I rarely agree with Joe Fan and do not particularly care for NASCAR or its stereotypical fans, there are soem key points:

1) The majority of racing deaths are not caused by debris striking a driver, but rather head trauma. With respect to debris stiking drivers, it is indisputable for the most part that NASCAR drivers are better protected from this type of injury.

2) Most of the head traumas result from the massive deceleration caused when the cars strike immovable objects such as concrete walls resulting in the brain slamming into the skull. In these types of accidents, the problem is primarily with oval racing, not necessarily the type or series of racing.

So what is the solution besides banning oval racing altogether? If the walls were not concrete, then cars which did not strike vitually head on would be at risk of grabbing the wall and being hurtled into the air rather than sliding down the track. Perhaps the walls should be constructed similar to a hockey arena in which the outside of the wall could be fibreglass with thick styrofoam behind. Then behind this could be the main concret barrier. This way, the walls could crumple on head-on impacts and absorb most of the energy rather than the car and driver. In addition, on routine contact with the wall, the cars would still have the ability to slide down the track without grabbing the walls.

Somehow, they need to figure out a way to construct energy absorbing walls.

[PDA]

RB/JV1 - Agreed. Energy attenuation on impact is of key importance. I only suggest the tyre barrier with walkway overlay because it is being used with some success, is cheap and easy to implement. No doubt, better engineered solutions are possible. John Fitch has done a lot of work on energy absorbing barriers, and people like him should be brought into this. I read that some form of energy absorbing wall was being constructed for turn 1 at Indianapolis in time for the GP in September. Haven't heard anything else since an intial report in Autoweek. It implied something more sophisticated than a tyre barrier.

Carbon fibre cells would make little difference (except in cost). The central cage usually retains its integrety in a crash, and is not the problem. Of course, the result of having current structures is that a lot of energy has to be attenuated -3,500lb at 150 mph plus is a lot of kinetic energy. energy to attenuate in a NASCAR wreck at 180 mph is about 35% higher than a CART or IRL car at 230 mph, so the barrier would have to be substantial.

[Don Capps]

Within four months we lost four top drivers from June to July 1968: Jim Clark at Hockenheim in an F2 race; Mike Spence in an crash during practice at Indy in a Lotus turbine; Lodovico Scarfiotti in a hill-climb event; and, Jo Schlesser in the air-cooled Honda in the French GP at Rouen. A year later, Graham Hill was spared only by a miracle when he crashed at Watkins Glen. In 1970, later both Piers Courage -- during the Dutch GP -- and Jochen Rindt during practice at Monza...

The toll is always too high and yet deaths seem to still happen in various series around the world. As NASCAR and the other racing organizations continue to discover, human beings are fragile and the margin between an injury and death is often the result of the same forces that usually result in nothing at all... It is really frustrating for those involved in the safety side of motor racing to continue to chase the rabbit. It isn't just the FIA, CART, or NASCAR needing to tighten up, it is how to do it without trading off one set of problems for another as is usually the case.

Unlike the vast majority of you, I grew up following racing when deaths were all too common. Plus, I was at Le Mans in 1955 when The Accident happened. Trust me, if you could have seen the aftermath, and a similar accident happened today -- forget racing for a long time in many, many places...

[Joe Fan]

Well, time for me to get back into this discussion after having some computer problems resolved.

First of all, it has been pretty much confirmed that Kenny had a stuck throttle. In an interview, Darrell Waltrip said that quite a few witnesses say that is what happened and he said lets come out and say it this time instead of saying we don't know like NASCAR did with Adam Petty's crash since there was not stuck throttle found on a post-crash inspection. So I think that a kill switch mounted on the steering wheel like the Super Modifieds use is a good idea but I am not 100% sure that it would have helped much in this case. I don't know if Kenny would have had enough time.

At any rate, I think a track like Loudon leaves much to be desired. The radius of both turns are not gradual and this paper-clipped shaped track has outside retaining walls that almost have a rectangular shape if you look at overhead. This means that if you have a problem at the end of either turn one or turn three, you run straight into a wall--squarely and flush if you try to enter the turn correctly by using the inside groove. There also it little banking to scrub off speed. So some changes need to be made in the track design. Any energy absorbing barriers need to be investigated too but styrofoam would not be feasible on an oval. I think modification of the outside retaining wall would be a good start. They need to make the retaining wall more rounded so that if you hit it, you don't hit it squarely and your car runs up against it more. It is a simple concept, change a straight line to a more curved line.

Sennafan, I never said open wheel racing should be abolished. I just questioned the open cockpit design and thought that maybe open wheel designs should be relegated to lower feeder series where speeds are lower since wheel to wheel contact results in more crashes than enclosed fendered cars. I also said that open wheel designs were more antiquated than enclosed wheel designs which is one of the reasons why I believed that major open wheel series should take a few conceptual ideas from Gordon Murray. Suggesting that major open wheel series move away from open wheel designs that eventually disappeared from passenger cars by the late 1930-40's that descended from the horse and chariot days only served to be flame bait in the eyes in a few dedicated open wheel fans instead of being a good topic for discussion. I guess we don't need to beat that dead horse all over again.

People can say that what is so different from Gonzalo Rodriguez's death than Adam or Kenny's death? It was hypothesized that Gonzalo had a stuck throttle (I think he just missed his braking zone) and died from massive deceleration. Well, Gonzalo Rodriguez did not die from injuries as a result of massive deceleration. I have seen the accident, have it on tape, and I can tell you from seeing his accident compared with Schumacher's at Silverstone and Jimmie Johnson's at Watkins Glen, that he died from having his head rammed into the ground. His car flipped over the barrier and this helped him not have to absorb all the energy of the initial impact. His car landed upside down in a rather significant drop off and his head was rammed into the ground since the car dug into the sand. Ditto for Greg Moore, his head never hit the inside retaining wall and he hit at an angle that would not have caused massive whiplash. He died from having his head rammed into the ground. One good point that I can add is that supposedly they have paved the grassy area that contributed to his car flipping. But this still evades the central lack of protection of the open cockpit.

So in summary, the two deaths in CART were largely due lack of protection of the drivers heads with some blame being put on the track features. In the deaths in NASCAR Winston Cup and BGN, the protection of the driver was there but it was due to throttles sticking and massive deceleration. The only car design issue that may need to be addressed in the future is perhaps making the noses of the cars more rounded but this would have to accomplished in the design of the front of the tubular frame chassis. It is aleady designed to absorb energy but perhaps this needs to be investigated.[p][Edited by Joe Fan on 07-10-2000]

[Megatron]

Joe Fan,

I don't care how you word, I don't care how you sugarcoat NASCAR, the fact is that you are really trying to row water uphill with this.

The fact is that last year you talked about how horrible open wheel racing was because two young men got killed.

Now that in your sweet little NASCAR two very young men got killed within 8 weeks of each other, your saying that "it was just rapid deceleration". At least CART had the excuse of saying it was on completely different tracks and completely different angles, NASCAR's was in the exact spot in the exact same turn but gee, no real problem here?

That is the only problem with spewing a load of crap on this BB Joe Fan, sooner or later it catches up with you.

Even some of the top driver sin NASCAR are calling for some "major saftey checks", but gee, just round out the nose a little and set em loose again eh?

You can't have it both ways Joe Fan.

[Joe Fan]

Once again Megatron, you are simply evading the central issue of why the drivers were killed. Notice that none of the NASCAR drivers are saying that the car design did not give them enough protection. You know why? Because that is not the problem. This was the problem with the deaths of Moore and Rodriguez but no one will honestly come out and say it. Is there any coincidence that Scott Pruett was offered the Cal Wells ride early on and Scott made his decision shortly after the death of Gonzalo Rodriguez?

And like I said before many times, you can get killed in any motorsports series, it is a dangerous business. Some are more dangerous than others and no one can deny the safety of NASCAR with the numbers I provided in posts above. It is just that the obvious problems need solutions. I think you are just pissed and making this just another attempt to bash NASCAR and some of my earlier points that were correct.

[mono-posto]

I know chassis design was not the contributing factor to the death, but it was brought up so I would like to add the following points:

"It is generally accepted that stressed skin construction (monocoque) is preferable to a space frame (tubular) in this regard (when designing for safety), because a stressed skin structure folds up more progressively on impact (more energy absorbtion), and because it offers less likelyhood of trapping or crushing the driver in the crumpled structure."

...
In regards to Carbon Fiber as a monocoque material:

"Once the composite structure has failed in this way (stressed to the point of breaking) it is no longer able to contribute any protection against a second collision, such as when a car first hits the wall then slews back into the path of another onrushing racer. Some argue that a metal structure (but hence still monocoque) is preferable here, because it can be bent twice. Whatever the force of this argument, there's no disputing that the modern composite stressed skin race-car chassis is vastly safer than the old tube frame types."

-Race Car Chassis - Design and Construction - Forbes Aird

And your argumant is that F1 is antiquated because it is an openwheel series? Lets not be calling the kettle black.

[BigWig]

I don't care how many drivers get killed in NASCAR it is still the safest in the world. WHY? Because they look like real cars dammit. Look outside the window on to the road in beatiful Kansas City. That Monte CARlo looks exactly like the one my hero, Dale Earnhardt, drives!! THose dang F1 cars look like those them chariot thingies in that movie BEN HUR! THey are DeathTraps!!! Put a roof over it and make it a lower feeDer series to NASCAR! WOOWEE!!! Stuck throttles is the fault of no-one in particular but Gonzalo Rodriguez missed his braking zone. MM-HMM.

[Joe Fan]

Here is the bottom line:

NASCAR Winston Cup went 215 races since their last driver fatality with an average field of in the low fourties.

NASCAR Busch Grand National went at least 180 races since their last driver fatality with an average field of in the high thirties/low fourties. The number is probably around 185 or so races--I don't have detailed race information for the 1992 season when Clifford Allison was killed testing a BGN car at Michigan.

The NASCAR Craftsman Truck Series has gone 89 races since their last driver fatality with an average field in the mid thirties.

CART has went 9 races since their last driver fatality with an average field in the mid twenty range.

Formula One has went 104 races without a driver fatality with an average field in the low to mid twenty range.

The IRL has went 37 races without a driver fatality with an average field of in the mid twenty range.


If you take the average of NASCAR Winston Cup and Busch Grand National, you come up with 200 races between driver fatalities.

So,

With an average season of 22 races, CART would have to race 8 and a half more seasons without a driver fatality to match NASCAR's safety record.

With an average season of 17 races, Formula One would have to race 5 and a half more seasons without a driver fatality to match NASCAR's safety record.

I left out the IRL and the NCTS since they are still relatively new series that fortunately have only had 1 driver fatality each.

Conclusion, I think it is a little too early for people to bash NASCAR's safety record or approach to safety.

[MichiganF1]

All of you arguing amongst yourselves about which series is really the safest should be ashamed. Who cares? The fact is that two racers died at the same exact spot on the same racetrack within the course of a few weeks. All anyone should be focused on is how to prevent it from happening again.

If Joe Fan spouts vile nonsense then leave it alone. You can never win an argument with a knucklehead.

Actually, Darrell Waltrip (of all people) had the best thoughts on this weekend. He said that we should investigate every fatal crash like an airplane crash. Piece the wreck back together and DETERMINE EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED. If it was a stuck throttle then find out what caused it, and fix the problem! If it's track design then fix the track! Don't let history repeat itself.

[mono-posto]

Originally posted by MichiganF1
Actually, Darrell Waltrip (of all people) had the best thoughts on this weekend. He said that we should investigate every fatal crash like an airplane crash. Piece the wreck back together and DETERMINE EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED. If it was a stuck throttle then find out what caused it, and fix the problem! If it's track design then fix the track! Don't let history repeat itself.

Exactly!! Amen Darrell. But apparently that isn't going to happen in NASCAR. I get the feeling that those in charge really don't care. The drivers should demand it.

[Sudsbouy]

IMO, NASCAR needs to also look at use of the same head restraint device projected for use in CART and F1 next season. In addition, I think they should move the steering wheel away from the driver (it's much closer than what you see in CART and F1.

If NASCAR doesn't see the need for changes at this track after two fatalities in such a short span of time, they really don't have a clue.

Thank you.

[Joe Fan]

Originally posted by MichiganF1
All of you arguing amongst yourselves about which series is really the safest should be ashamed. Who cares? The fact is that two racers died at the same exact spot on the same racetrack within the course of a few weeks. All anyone should be focused on is how to prevent it from happening again.

If Joe Fan spouts vile nonsense then leave it alone. You can never win an argument with a knucklehead.

MichiganF1, exactly where have I not offered suggestions on this thread on how to prevent these tradegies from happening again and exactly what have I stated that would make me a knucklehead or when have I spouted vile nonsense?

I have provided more than effective evidence that NASCAR has a much better fatality record than any other series. Take into consideration that NASCAR fields are 1.5 times larger than the major open wheel series and it only shows supports this even further. Motorsports will always be a dangerous business but this not mean that just because NASCAR has a better fatality record that they should ignore the situation even if it was a freak occurence. If a freak occurence happens again within a couple months of eachother, then it is time to take a good close look at several things to prevent it from happening again. I sincerely hope that all series progress in terms of safety of the driver. This is something that all series should work together on and they all should share new technology if they find that it improves the safety of the driver.

[Toxicant]

Frankly I'm sick off all this crap, RACING is dangerous!!

If you don't want to risk dying in a race car don't drive one. All of these drivers take the risk in their own hands for the thrill, excitment and MONEY. Fame and fortune is all that matters, they weigh the odds and strap on the belts...it's their choice.

I'm sick and tired of all you whining fans that cry, "racing is so dangerous, we should get rid of ovals, put roofs on F1 cars, do this, do that" Sheesh!!

Can't anyone in this day and age decide to do something and not have either the government or some governing body making some atempt to make it "safer" in their eyes.

The fact is that most of these deaths are caused by failures, whether it be stuck throttles or poor steering shaft welds and so on. Those things will never be prevented!!

Racing is dangerous, boo hoo people die seeking fame and fortune....what the hell else is new???

[Nathan]

Joe Fan, why dont you just accept that its not "OK" that there is a death. You make it seem like just because one NASCAR guy gets kileld every 200 races, that one every now and them is acceptable and is no need for conern for safety improvements.

Also, I think it has only been a few races since the last NASCAR driver was killed. Remember Adam Petty 2 moths ago? I know he wasnt a NASCAR driver, but BUSCH and ASA, and Craftsmen trucks for that matter are virtually the same design and safety wise. So in a way you must consider all 4 series (or atleast 3) the same.

I know no racing series is 100% safe. But we have to get past the theory that detah in racing happens so deal with it. Thats total BS. And if you do think that, then disconnect your airbags, seatbelts, ABS, traction control any other safety feature in your road car, because death on roads happens. And if you think nothing should be really done about it in racing, then why should it be done for road cars?

Personally this is what I feel needs to be done to improve NASCAR saftey. If Im off please correct me and add your own if you wish.

1) Decrease vehicle weight (and therefore momentum and energy during crashes)

2) Move fuel cell within the wheelbase, not behind the rear axle.

3) Construct front and rear subframes of high grade aluminum. This helps makes the car lighter, improves energy absorbtion and with recent advances in aluminum, is almost as strong as steel.

4) reinforce the front and rear subframes with carbon fiber panels. Carbon fiber breaks easier than steel bends, so again helpiung energy absorbtion and car rigidity. This will also make up for the lost strength of the car since we replaced the steel with aluminum. So now we can have equal or greater strength with much better energy absorbtion.

5) Introduce some sort of helmet restarint system. A very recent crash (cant remeber the dirvers name) show this is needed. His helmet bounced off the cockpit window netting, showing they move way to much.

6) Collapsable steering colums, and possibly airbags.

7) Introduce ABS on most oval circits. Since their is no fuel injection, it wouldnt be hard to regulate this. It would really be one of the very few electronic devices in the car other than the ignition and radio. This will help slow cars down, thus lowering momentum at imp[act. Now I saiad some tracks, as road course and short ovals like Bristol, this device isnt needed as much and would lessen the racing more than it would improve safety.

8) Lessen the power output. Since we are lightneing the cars, we must lower the output. Perhaps 2 or 3 kinds of restrictor plates.

Of cpurse to keep speeds and other things in check, other rules would also have to be put in place to help smooth all of thse changes out.

Also something needs to be done to the tracks.

[MichiganF1]

Joe Fan, please accept my apology for calling you a name. That was wrong.

However, I stand by my statement that arguing the relative safety of NASCAR vs. F1 or CART is absolutely pointless when two NASCAR drivers have died in the same manner at the same track in successive months. I could give a flying **** that NASCAR is somehow statistically safer, if in fact they do not THOROUGHLY investigate the tragedies at Loudon and take steps to prevent them from happening again.

Judging by the official NASCAR website, which treated Irwin's death as little more than another story of the week, I hold out little hope that something significant will be done. Hope I'm 100% wrong.