85 replies to this topic

[karlth]

Stumbled onto an old post quoting "La Gazzetta dello Sport" about why Goodyear decided to leave Formula 1 in 1998:

La Gazzetta reports that Antonio Corsi - the president of Goodyear's
Italian operations hit back at Schumacher's continual beratement of
the tyres: "He is biting the hand that feeds him", "One of the not
insignificant reasons for Goodyear leaving F1 is the martyrdom we are
put under by the press because we're not helping the national heros. We
are sometimes too protective of the lawyers (Agnelli, Montezemolo) and
Schumacher. Are we sure that this is a Goodyear/Ferrari problem or is
it rather that McLaren are so strong?". Corsi referred to a phone call
made by Sam Gibara, Goodyear's `no. 1' about Schumacher's continuous
complaints: "Essentially he said `enough is enough'.

Montezemolo understood, Schumacher possibly did not". He added
"Links with Ferrari are good. Montezemolo, Irvine, Todt can be reasoned with.
With Schumacher it's different because he is considered a sort of demi-god.
It is difficult to deal with someone only a little below God. If McLaren had
Goodyears, we would be winning.".

Corsi admitted that Goodyear had been behind in their development but
is now convinced that they are on a par with Bridgestone.

Comments?

[Chevy II Nova]

Thats it. Time to burn him at the stake.

[Peter Perfect]

Originally posted by karlth

Corsi admitted that Goodyear had been behind in their development but
is now convinced that they are on a par with Bridgestone.

Sounds familiar, just replace Bridgestone for Goodyear and Michelin for Bridgestone.

[Ghostrider]

They did a very bad job, and got bad press. I don't think Schumi was the only one complaining. They had no future anyway, every team would have left them sooner or later.

[littlewoodenboy]

looks like another windup to me...

[karlth]

Weren't there comments about Goodyear engineers being near to tears at Suzuka? Sounds similar to Bridgestone's reaction after Suzuka last year, standing infront of Todt and Co with tears streaming down their face.

The pressure must be enormous. If they win everyone thanks Ferrari, lose and everyone kicks them.

[Just me]

A huge company leaving F1 due to single man?
Check the calender,the decision was made in november 1997 and nothing to do with Schumacher's complaints about tyres in 1998.

I gave you far more credit than that Karl.

[karlth]

Originally posted by littlewoodenboy
looks like another windup to me...

Pardon?

[karlth]

Originally posted by Just me
Check the calender,the decision was made in november 1997 and nothingl to do with Schumacher's complaints about tyres in 1998.

I gave you far more credit than that Karl.

Don't blame me. Those are actual Goodyear quotes, if you don't like them close your eyes.

[Arrow]

Originally posted by karlth


Pardon?

Yeh right

[Ghostrider]

Originally posted by karlth
Don't blame me. Those are actual Goodyear quotes, if you don't like them close your eyes.

So if someone had said some "negative" stuff that was hardly credible about JPM, you would have started a thread about that as well?

[Thunder]

Another flame bait.
They had said way before that they do not want tyre war and decided to quit the sport. Nothing with MS. What was MS complaining is the way Goodyear ceased development. They did nothing to respond to Bridgestone. But after continuous copmlaints they started to catch Bridgestones. If they had done that preseason 98 would be cakewalk for ferrari.
And some here say MS has nothing to do with the car development. For sure if the driver was Hakkinen, Montoya, Kimi they would do the same.

[Just me]

Originally posted by karlth


Don't blame me. Those are actual Goodyear quotes, if you don't like them close your eyes.

Not blame you for posting this?As said above a windup.Quoting an article about strained relations between Schumacher and Goodyear after the decision to leave has already been made.

What are you trying to do anyway?Rewrite history again? :

[Williams]

McLaren's amazing dominance that year could only have been partially due to tyres. I don't think there's a lot of doubt that Bridgestone had Goodyear's number, and Schumacher understood that fully. So he made mention of the situation in the press in order to motivate Goodyear into fighting back.

As much as Goodyear might have been dismayed by Schumacher's influence at Ferrari, Schumacher was equally frustrated at Goodyear's lagging response to Bridgestone's hegemony, and his inability to do anything other than deal indirectly with the problem. Hence his use of the press to motivate Goodyear.

Sounds to me like Goodyear were doing a bit of whining, and they eventually flounced out of the sport they had had a monopoly on for so many years.

Whether Schumacher was a "demigod" or not, he was right, and Goodyear were lazy.

[karlth]

Originally posted by Just me


Not blame you for posting this?As said above a windup.Quoting an article about strained relations between Schumacher and Goodyear after the decision to leave has already been made.

What are you trying to do anyway?Rewrite history again? :

You think those quotes might be made up? Interesting.

I think what you mean is that you don't like them.

[karlth]

Originally posted by Williams
As much as Goodyear might have been dismayed by Schumacher's influence at Ferrari, Schumacher was equally frustrated at Goodyear's lagging response to Bridgestone's hegemony, and his inability to do anything other than deal indirectly with the problem. Hence his use of the press to motivate Goodyear.

That's it. It was motivation. What is it called when other drivers make similar comments?

[SeanValen]

Originally posted by Williams
McLaren's amazing dominance that year could only have been partially due to tyres. I don't think there's a lot of doubt that Bridgestone had Goodyear's number, and Schumacher understood that fully. So he made mention of the situation in the press in order to motivate Goodyear into fighting back.

As much as Goodyear might have been dismayed by Schumacher's influence at Ferrari, Schumacher was equally frustrated at Goodyear's lagging response to Bridgestone's hegemony, and his inability to do anything other than deal indirectly with the problem. Hence his use of the press to motivate Goodyear.

Sounds to me like Goodyear were doing a bit of whining, and they eventually flounced out of the sport they had had a monopoly on for so many years.

Whether Schumacher was a "demigod" or not, he was right, and Goodyear were lazy.

Glad Schumi woke them up, or the 1998 season would of been less thrilling, the winner was f1's excitement. Without Michael's brains off track, and his driving on track, it would of been a cake walk for mclaren, one man can make a difference just like Michael Knight in Knight Rider.

[Just me]

Originally posted by karlth


You think those quotes might be made up? Interesting.

I think what you mean is that you don't like them.

I don't think that they are made up.What gave you that impression anyway?

I have nothing against the quotes per se,on the countrary i see them is very enlightning of the pressure that Goodyear was also put under especially in Italy.

I just don't like the conclusions you came too.

[tifosi]

Originally posted by karlth


You think those quotes might be made up? Interesting.

I think what you mean is that you don't like them.

Actually its more funny than anything else.

Sounds liek a little 9 year old at the playground

"Oh mommy the big bad bully he insulted me wah wah wah"

If this is the kind of employees Goodyear had in its F1 program Schumacher should have just kicked there whining sniveling butts out.

[karlth]

Alarm bells sounded

Ferrari's response:

"No comment".

A few hours later, Corsi explained:

"Links with Ferrari are excellent. I didn't intend to offend anyone. Some sentences were a shade too colourful. I wanted to underline that we refute Schumacher's claim that the tyres are 75% of the problem."

[karlth]

Originally posted by tifosi


Actually its more funny than anything else.

Sounds liek a little 9 year old at the playground

"Oh mommy the big bad bully he insulted me wah wah wah"

Are you ill or something?

[Just me]

Originally posted by karlth
Alarm bells sounded

Ferrari's response:

"No comment".

A few hours later, Corsi explained:

"Links with Ferrari are excellent. I didn't intend to offend anyone. Some sentences were a shade too colourful. I wanted to underline that we refute Schumacher's claim that the tyres are 75% of the problem."

Hardly going with your tabloid-style thread title.

[Williams]

Originally posted by karlth


That's it. It was motivation. What is it called when other drivers make similar comments?

Don't get confused between what drivers say about their team and what they say about a supplier to the team. Schumacher has always stayed onside with Ferrari, unlike some other drivers, because he could always discuss and resolve problems internally. A supplier like Goodyear he had no direct influence over, so he had to deal with the matter more publicly. Too bad if Goodyear didn't like it.

Kudos to Schumacher for doing what he could to grab some control of the situation. A lot of drivers would have sat back and hoped someone would do something about the tyres.

And BTW Goodyear did not leave the sport because of Schumacher, they left because they were losing to Bridgestone.

[312B3]

Karlth,

Goodyear had decided to pull out of F1 at the end of 1998 at the end of 1997. That was the reason for Ron Dennis' inspired choice to switch to Bridgestone. But for heaven's sake, do not let the facts get in the way of fiction. Freedom of speech is a basic foundation of democracy, but when I read your comments I am increasingly convinced that there should be a basic IQ test before people are allowed to post on this BB. Cheers.

[karlth]

Originally posted by Williams
And BTW Goodyear did not leave the sport because of Schumacher, they left because they were losing to Bridgestone.

You'll have to ask Goodyear about that. "Enough is enough" isn't my quote.

[Thunder]

Originally posted by karlth
Alarm bells sounded

Ferrari's response:

"No comment".

A few hours later, Corsi explained:

"Links with Ferrari are excellent. I didn't intend to offend anyone. Some sentences were a shade too colourful. I wanted to underline that we refute Schumacher's claim that the tyres are 75% of the problem."

Where does he say the reason they quit the sport was Schumacher? They had said way before 98 season started they will quit. Schumacher was right, once they were pressured they closed the gap . at Suzuka they were as god as Bridgestones. No ferrari inovation would close the gap but Goodyear would do and did. Schumacher was right.

[troyf1]

If Goodyear left F1 because Michael was criticizing them then I guess Honda left F1 at the end of 1992 because of Senna. Senna made plently of comments in 1991 pre-season testing that the Honda engine wasn't powerful enough.

[bira]

Newsflash: Michael Schumacher is one of the most demanding and hardest drivers to work with.

Luca Balisderi, who was his race engineer in 2002, left his role (but not the team) before the 2003 season at his own request, telling friends that he couldn't take another year of working under such pressure. He said Michael is the single most demanding driver he's ever seen. He didn't necessarily mean it as a bad thing or as a compliment. Just as a realistic assessment.

karlth is among those who get upset when Frank Williams or Patrick Head or Sam Michael bring this point up - of Michael Schumacher being on the phone in the middle of the night with the factory, demanding to know what's going on and pushing the staff (or words to that effect, can't remember Sam's exact words) - as a way to criticise their own driver. I even remember someone here, which I'm fairly sure was karlth himself (though I might be wrong so I apologise in advance if I've confused him with someone else)), doudting the truthfullness of the Williams stories, suggesting that all those claims about Michael's extra commitment is overly exaggerated.

Well you know what? They're not. Be it Goodyear or his race engineer, Schumacher demands. I think you will find that everyone in the paddock finds that a GOOD thing, not a bad thing.

If Goodyear left - as the title suggests - because of Schumacher, then stop to think about what this means? They couldn't handle his pressure? They couldn't deliver and meet the standards of a driver who went on to win 4 more World Championships, and is the reason behind Ferrari have been together - without any changes in the top staff - all those year?

If you think about those quotes a little more, I think you might realize that it makes Goodyear look bad. Not Schumacher.

Oh, and by the way karlth: saying that "If they win everyone thanks Ferrari, lose and everyone kicks them" about Bridgestone is rather rubbish. Look at 2002 -- even on this Bulletin Board -- and you'll see Bridgestone get a LOT of credit for the wins too. It's not like everyone's oblivious to the huge contribution of tyres to a win or a loss.

[tifosi]

Originally posted by troyf1
If Goodyear left F1 because Michael was criticizing them then I guess Honda left F1 at the end of 1992 because of Senna. Senna made plently of comments in 1991 pre-season testing that the Honda engine wasn't powerful enough.

Don't suppose we'd get the same tabloid headline from karlth on this one

[Thunder]

http://www.atlasf1.c...7/can/king.html

Basically there were rumours Goddyear would not enter into expensive tyre war.

[Williams]

Originally posted by karlth


You'll have to ask Goodyear about that. "Enough is enough" isn't my quote.

Goodyear are the last guys to ask about that. Hence their quotes.

[Thunder]

http://www.motorspor...?ID=12780&FS=F1

1997/12 again not 98

[Chris_Amon]

I just would like to say that if Ferrari had the bridgestone tyres for the 1998 season, MS would now be starting the 2004 season looking for his 8th title.

The ultimate evidence of that came after the 1998 Spanish Grand Prix. Also the Italian magazine Autosprint noticed that when their cover of the Barcelona GP review edition displayed the giant text "CAMBI GOMME, FERRARI!" ("Change tyres, Ferrari!").

[eoin]

Originally posted by karlth
Alarm bells sounded

Ferrari's response:

"No comment".

A few hours later, Corsi explained:

"Links with Ferrari are excellent. I didn't intend to offend anyone. Some sentences were a shade too colourful. I wanted to underline that we refute Schumacher's claim that the tyres are 75% of the problem."

I remember Irvine making similar comments in his Sunday World column(irish tabloid), saying that 80% of the problem was the Goodyear tyres. It was at the start of the season when BS had a wider front tyre.

Corsi admitted that Goodyear had been behind in their development but
is now convinced that they are on a par with Bridgestone.

If that was true why shouldn't MS be bitching? Goodyear were lagging behind, so MS adds some pressure. I remember BMW doing something similar to Williams 2 years ago, and it seems to have done no harm.

[HSJ]

Originally posted by karlth
Weren't there comments about Goodyear engineers being near to tears at Suzuka? Sounds similar to Bridgestone's reaction after Suzuka last year, standing infront of Todt and Co with tears streaming down their face.

The pressure must be enormous. If they win everyone thanks Ferrari, lose and everyone kicks them.

That's the schurrari way. If they win, it is because of Michael, and sometimes a little bit because of Ferrari, but when they lose it is the tyres, or sometimes a little bit the car, never 'god' himself.

[HSJ]

Originally posted by Williams
McLaren's amazing dominance that year could only have been partially due to tyres. I don't think there's a lot of doubt that Bridgestone had Goodyear's number, and Schumacher understood that fully. So he made mention of the situation in the press in order to motivate Goodyear into fighting back.

As much as Goodyear might have been dismayed by Schumacher's influence at Ferrari, Schumacher was equally frustrated at Goodyear's lagging response to Bridgestone's hegemony, and his inability to do anything other than deal indirectly with the problem. Hence his use of the press to motivate Goodyear.

Sounds to me like Goodyear were doing a bit of whining, and they eventually flounced out of the sport they had had a monopoly on for so many years.

Whether Schumacher was a "demigod" or not, he was right, and Goodyear were lazy.

Although, interestingly the tyre thing has been made a big issue of only lately with Michelin getting the upper hand. Back in 1998 no such fuss was made of Bstone; the performance of the Mac was supposedly down to Newey (almost) alone. I've always found this rather odd, but not surprising.

[HSJ]

Originally posted by bira

Well you know what? They're not. Be it Goodyear or his race engineer, Schumacher demands. I think you will find that everyone in the paddock finds that a GOOD thing, not a bad thing.

Are you sure? Up to a degree, certainly, but there's a breaking point too, as with everything. A smart boss knows how to pick his employees such that they need minimal guidance, i.e. they know themselves what to do. So, is MS not good enough to know who are those who don't need to be pushed around? Of course he doesn't do the hiring at Ferrari... A smart boss also knows that even if his employees are such that they need pushing, too much pushing is likely to lessen the efficiency because they don't have any peace of mind or work.

[Thunder]

Originally posted by HSJ


Although, interestingly the tyre thing has been made a big issue of only lately with Michelin getting the upper hand. Back in 1998 no such fuss was made of Bstone; the performance of the Mac was supposedly down to Newey (almost) alone. I've always found this rather odd, but not surprising.

What ???

[bira]

Originally posted by HSJ


Are you sure? Up to a degree, certainly, but there's a breaking point too, as with everything. A smart boss knows how to pick his employees such that they need minimal guidance, i.e. they know themselves what to do. So, is MS not good enough to know who are those who don't need to be pushed around? Of course he doesn't do the hiring at Ferrari... A smart boss also knows that even if his employees are such that they need pushing, too much pushing is likely to lessen the efficiency because they don't have any peace of mind or work.

Am I sure? Heh, where have you been for the last 8 years? Do you see a revolving door of people and manufacturers around Schumacher? Aparently the breaking point you're talking about is lower than that of Ross Brawn or Rory Byrne or Nigel Stepney. Aparently it's lower than that of Bridgestone who not only subscribe to this method of work but actually ditched everyone around in favour of that team (which isn't necessarily a good move on their part, but that's a different topic).

What are you trying to convince yourself? That Schumacher is not exceptional in his work commitment, ethics and demands? That his perfectionism is not unmatched by any other driver? That it's actually a bad thing? Well, you just keep telling yourself that and in the mean time Michael Schumacher will continue to rack up achievements that are unlikely to be matched by anyone else in your lifetime

[bira]

Originally posted by HSJ


Although, interestingly the tyre thing has been made a big issue of only lately with Michelin getting the upper hand. Back in 1998 no such fuss was made of Bstone; the performance of the Mac was supposedly down to Newey (almost) alone. I've always found this rather odd, but not surprising.

That is patently rubbish and displays a lack of knowledge on your part on what happened - and what was said in the media and among fans - in 1998.

[littlewoodenboy]

getting kind of wound up, eh?

[Chevy II Nova]

Originally posted by HSJ


That's the schurrari way. If they win, it is because of Michael, and sometimes a little bit because of Ferrari, but when they lose it is the tyres, or sometimes a little bit the car, never 'god' himself.

In your mind, is this true?

[maclaren]

Originally posted by karlth
La Gazzetta reports that Antonio Corsi - the president of Goodyear's
Italian operations hit back at Schumacher's continual beratement of
the tyres: "He is biting the hand that feeds him", "One of the not
insignificant reasons for Goodyear leaving F1 is the martyrdom we are
put under by the press because we're not helping the national heros. We
are sometimes too protective of the lawyers (Agnelli, Montezemolo) and
Schumacher. Are we sure that this is a Goodyear/Ferrari problem or is
it rather that McLaren are so strong?". Corsi referred to a phone call
made by Sam Gibara, Goodyear's `no. 1' about Schumacher's continuous
complaints: "Essentially he said `enough is enough'.

Montezemolo understood, Schumacher possibly did not". He added
"Links with Ferrari are good. Montezemolo, Irvine, Todt can be reasoned with.
With Schumacher it's different because he is considered a sort of demi-god.
It is difficult to deal with someone only a little below God. If McLaren had
Goodyears, we would be winning.".

So true, so true

If you look at the difference between GY runners and BS runners that year the differences was minimal!!!

2002 was even more like so, Michelin wasn't considered much worse at all, but Ferrari won everyhting. In 2002 Wiliams and particularly McLaren were simply not as good cars as Ferrari, and in 1998 only McLaren mastered the narrow cars and grooved tyres quickly.....

[baddog]

I remember the tyre thing as HUGELY controversial at the time, just as much as now. There was, for example, much play made in some sections (perhaps unfairly) of the fact that mclaren in fact had allegedly bespoke tyres that noone else had access to.

As for the subject.. I think Bira has said it all.

Shaun

[Scudetto]

So Schuey single-handedly caused Goodyear to depart F1?

Anybody subscribing to this silly theory bestows upon Schumacher greater power than even his most ardent fans profess he possesses.

I suppose, then, that Schumacher similarly disgraced Goodyear into leaving all forms of American open-wheel racing just one season later.

Goodyear left because of MONEY. Period.

[maclaren]

Originally posted by Scudetto
Anybody subscribing to this silly theory bestows upon Schumacher greater power than even his most ardent fans profess he possesses.

Well the whole huge pro Schumacher mediahype has incredible power.

[karlth]

It's been a long time since I've seen so many Tifosi in such a short thread. I thought you had all retired?

[Scudetto]

Originally posted by maclaren
Well the whole huge pro Schumacher mediahype has incredible power.

Merely demonstrating that it's the perception of reality that drives unwarrented myths and rumors such as this one. No amount of "mediahype" about Schumacher is going to retranslate balance sheet figures in Akron, Ohio in such a way as to convince Goodyear one way or another that it was receiving a worthy return on investment from F1.

That one driver of one team could so wound the collective egos of a multi-billion dollar, multi-national corporation so as to drive it from the top echelon of motorsport is simply laughable.

[Zeus]

I don't see much point in debating whether Schumacher's motivational tactis are good or bad, the results speak volumes, don't they? Even other team managers are willing to give him credit for making the worker bees of the team believe in success. This has always been MS's way, even with his team, when necessary (think back to 96, he cracked the whip in his team relentlessly).

Besides, Goodyear dropped the ball so badly in 98, everyone knew the Bridgestone fronts were wider, but it took GY months before they could counter. Should they have been praised for that?

[Hellenic tifosi]

Originally posted by bira
Newsflash: Michael Schumacher is one of the most demanding and hardest drivers to work with.

Luca Balisderi, who was his race engineer in 2002, left his role (but not the team) before the 2003 season at his own request, telling friends that he couldn't take another year of working under such pressure. He said Michael is the single most demanding driver he's ever seen. He didn't necessarily mean it as a bad thing or as a compliment. Just as a realistic assessment.

karlth is among those who get upset when Frank Williams or Patrick Head or Sam Michael bring this point up - of Michael Schumacher being on the phone in the middle of the night with the factory, demanding to know what's going on and pushing the staff (or words to that effect, can't remember Sam's exact words) - as a way to criticise their own driver. I even remember someone here, which I'm fairly sure was karlth himself (though I might be wrong so I apologise in advance if I've confused him with someone else)), doudting the truthfullness of the Williams stories, suggesting that all those claims about Michael's extra commitment is overly exaggerated.

Well you know what? They're not. Be it Goodyear or his race engineer, Schumacher demands. I think you will find that everyone in the paddock finds that a GOOD thing, not a bad thing.

If Goodyear left - as the title suggests - because of Schumacher, then stop to think about what this means? They couldn't handle his pressure? They couldn't deliver and meet the standards of a driver who went on to win 4 more World Championships, and is the reason behind Ferrari have been together - without any changes in the top staff - all those year?

If you think about those quotes a little more, I think you might realize that it makes Goodyear look bad. Not Schumacher.

Oh, and by the way karlth: saying that "If they win everyone thanks Ferrari, lose and everyone kicks them" about Bridgestone is rather rubbish. Look at 2002 -- even on this Bulletin Board -- and you'll see Bridgestone get a LOT of credit for the wins too. It's not like everyone's oblivious to the huge contribution of tyres to a win or a loss.

We could be arguing for ages here on different matters until bira comes in and casts some light...