78 replies to this topic

[Allen Brown]

Anyone else enjoy this match? It's amazing how hard fought and thoroughly entertaining a 0-0 draw can be - especially if it's a FA Cup Quarter-Final. The Tranmere goalie will be a local hereo for a while after this.

Of course I switched on to watch the GP instead but it couldn't hold my attention. I switched over during a commercial break and never bothered to turn back.

Was it just me?

Allen

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Anyone else enjoy this match? It's amazing how hard fought and thoroughly entertaining a 0-0 draw can be - especially if it's a FA Cup Quarter-Final. The Tranmere goalie will be a local hereo for a while after this.

Of course I switched on to watch the GP instead but it couldn't hold my attention. I switched over during a commercial break and never bothered to turn back.

Was it just me?

Allen

Not me; I really dislike football.

I enjoyed another demonstration of how a team should go racing; the others were nowhere and therefore must improve if a spectacle is to be provided.

Not that I care; if I want spectacle, then I would rather go to a V.S.C.C. meeting any time.

PdeRL

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Anyone else enjoy this match? It's amazing how hard fought and thoroughly entertaining a 0-0 draw can be - especially if it's a FA Cup Quarter-Final. The Tranmere goalie will be a local hereo for a while after this.

Of course I switched on to watch the GP instead but it couldn't hold my attention. I switched over during a commercial break and never bothered to turn back.

Was it just me?

Allen

No, football is generally an instant-off for me. The GP I just about managed to stay awake through, the only interesting bit on track was the little scuffle between Fissi and Heidfeld. When you turn a Grand Prix into four F3-length races glued together by pitstop competitions it does tend to lose all interest.

What's the point passing on track if you can make up more time in the pits? Three-stopping as a viable strategy is finally killing any interest I might've had in contemporary F1 - I'd much rather the viable options were zero or one stops.

[Wolf]

Allen- I watched both (live)... The masochistic streak in me (apparently, it's our male trademark, a small trinket of evolution to help us get by a little more comfortably), made me stay up and watch Oz GP (it was at 5 AM , because there was no way on Earth to get up at such an ungodly hour (anything before 10AM qualifies as such ). As pointless as it may seem, esp. in such time-slot, I still like to watch F1 races (but over last year or two, have noticed I managed to literally fall asleep during, even though I never had habbit of afternoon naps). :

I'm glad with commercial mastodonts that squander gazzilions of squid on their teams (not to mention teams like Chelsea that at one point in time or another had one English player on their team) to see such 'little' teams in FA Cup quarterfinals (a faint sign all is not lost, not yet, at least) and put on a good and entartaining performance...

[Wolf]

P.S. Mind you, this afternoon I kept one eye on athletics indoor WC (our girl won the bronze in high-jump ), am keeping an eye on Roma-Inter game (although I don't watch those 'big' games anymore, I can't stand it any longer) and will most likely do so on NBA game later on... I like to use my TV set for 'background' noise, and sports are still better that most mindless $hite we're being fed from the tube. *shrug*

[ensign14]

I watched it when the War of the Reformation (i.e. Celtic v Rangers) had finished. Decent enough game. However I cannot now get emotionally invovled in the FA Cup , barring hoping for an Man Ure v Arse final - against every fibre of my soul - because that would mean a UEFA Cup space would go to the team finishing 7th in the Premier, and we are having the season of all seasons at the moment and could actually do it. (Sign of the Apocalypse.)

[Barry Boor]

(not to mention teams like Chelsea that at one point in time or another had one English player on their team)

As a lifelong Chelsea fan I MUST leap to the defence of my team who, on several occasions this season have fielded, Bridge, Johnson, Terry, Cole and Lampard all at the same time. I would add that ALL are English and all are Internationals, too.

However, seeing that this is a racing forum and the Oz G.P. is now history.... I recorded it, watched as soon as I got up and was surprised how quickly it went by. I was not bored - despite the red tide, but longed for tracks where the Michelin guys would be able to compete. The Ferrari is an excellent package but I felt that tyres played a very big part in the easy 1-2.

The thing that had me most vocal was the easing of the pit entrance and the raising of the pit lane speed limit. I would advocate precisely the opposite - don't encourage MORE stops - prevent the damn things.

Back to the footy; I watched some of Millwall/Tranmere and thought it was dreadful. Hardly an ounce of skill amongst the whole lot of them. The big downside of knockout competitions is that teams like that can get to the last stages while far better teams (like mine) have to get flippin' Arsenal every year!

Rant over....

[Barry Boor]

BTW, we now have Parker, too. Another Englishman!!!!

[Racer.Demon]

Barry, I think Wolf was referring to the Gullit/Vialli days at Chelsea when the team was a veritable Légion d'Étrangers... (Same here in Holland, though - there have been matches where all of Ajax' players in the field were foreigners. How the fans can get themselves to cheer them on is beyond me.)

But off-topic ;) - in the afternoon re-run (can't be bothered to get up to watch away races live) I saw a terrific display of the red army and their crazy racing machines, with brave young Alonso the only one remotely able to hang on - his relentless race pace is almost on a par with Schuey's, and by the way he is quickly improving on his startline 'one-move' defences too...

Anyway, I thought this ultimately boring race was sweet revenge and therefore I enjoyed it immensely. Why? Because it put paid to all the silly 'changes' that were deliberately introduced to spice up The Show. It also showed that last year's excitement was chance, and that you can't tweak a sport into a show at will. F1 has a right to be boring. It's a sport. Sport will always have better sportsmen using better equipment taking on lesser sportsmen using lesser equipment. So it does tend to get boring from time to time - for the random watcher, that is.

The enthusiast will revel in other things - the dominant display, the battles over lesser positions, whatever. Jim Clark strolling into the distance was boring too, yet there is overwhelming nostalgia for his style and talent. That nostalgia emanates from having been there or having read the stories, I'm sure it doesn't come from live television!

If Grand Prix racing would return to being a marginal sport for the enthusiasts would we be having this conversation? But then we would also miss out on watching the racing live on television. I'm unsure what I would prefer.

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Racer.Demon
But off-topic ;) - in the afternoon re-run (can't be bothered to get up to watch away races live) I saw a terrific display of the red army and their crazy racing machines, with brave young Alonso the only one remotely able to hang on - his relentless race pace is almost on a par with Schuey's, and by the way he is quickly improving on his startline 'one-move' defences too...

Anyway, I thought this ultimately boring race was sweet revenge and therefore I enjoyed it immensely. Why? Because it put paid to all the silly 'changes' that were deliberately introduced to spice up The Show. It also showed that last year's excitement was chance, and that you can't tweak a sport into a show at will. F1 has a right to be boring. It's a sport. Sport will always have better sportsmen using better equipment taking on lesser sportsmen using lesser equipment. So it does tend to get boring from time to time - for the random watcher, that is.

The enthusiast will revel in other things - the dominant display, the battles over lesser positions, whatever. Jim Clark strolling into the distance was boring too, yet there is overwhelming nostalgia for his style and talent. That nostalgia emanates from having been there or having read the stories, I'm sure it doesn't come from live television!

If Grand Prix racing would return to being a marginal sport for the enthusiasts would we be having this conversation? But then we would also miss out on watching the racing live on television. I'm unsure what I would prefer.

Very well put. You expressed my views exactly.

[ian senior]

I didn't watch the game in question, not caring too much about either team. But the alternative Ferrari-fest didn't grab my attention either. I was pottering around at home when my other half said "don't you want to watch the racing", to which I replied "not really". Shows what a poor state of affairs F1 is these days. Like many of us, my enthusiasm has been on the wane for years now, but it's now got to the point where I just don't care.

[RTH]

I couldn't be bothered to see it out either - I think for the first time ever, - and I'm certainly never going to sit through that 2 hours of single car qualifying ever again it was just deadly dull.

The whole thing really is now in a bad way , the television companies may well depart before we get a new F1 built.

[Wolf]

Sorry Barry- I din't mean at this moment. IIRC Millwalls player-manager was oft the only Englishman in Chelsea's starting 11 (was it in Vialli's time?)...

[David Beard]

Originally posted by VAR1016


Not me; I really dislike football.

PdeRL

But not as much as I do.

[ensign14]

I think they need to make it more difficult again. It appears merely to be a cruise in the park for most of them. No traction control, less downforce, bring back manual gearchanges, no fuel stops...also closer grids - the 2x2 means you cannot leapfrog from 14th to 1st anymore.

[Frank de Jong]

I tend to watch the F1 races these days while I do something else. Yesterday I sorted out my 2003 car magazines, which was far more interesting than the race, collecting all those "Hallo, wie geht's" columns from the pile of Motorsport aktuells. Hi Arthur Blank, Ben Pon, Han Akersloot etc.
Soccer wasn't an option yesterday either; the dutch "premier league" is getting worse each week - looks like no-one wants to be champion these days.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by ensign14
I think they need to make it more difficult again. It appears merely to be a cruise in the park for most of them. No traction control, less downforce, bring back manual gearchanges, no fuel stops...also closer grids - the 2x2 means you cannot leapfrog from 14th to 1st anymore.

That's the kind of F1 I want to see.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by petefenelon




That's the kind of F1 I want to see.

Originally posted by soubriquet
Without the distraction of the commentary ....

Is it just me, or did James Allen's performance plumb new depths of crapulence? His hideous screaming at the start was cringeworthy!

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by David Beard


But not as much as I do.

Are you quite sure??

And Vitesse: yes James Allen was especially appalling at the start.

PdeRL

[ensign14]

At least James Allen does not yell "boogity boogity boogity"...as soon as he does so I am applying for him to be put in the funny farm.

[RTH]

I can only imagine the current commentator must have some kind of special hold over his job in the television company, otherwise I cannot imagine why he is still there.He is universally unpopular with everyone I speak to on the subject.

He, and the rest of the presentation team are a major reason for my dissatisfaction with what is served up to us.

If only they would be honest , and say what an unacceptably poor spectacle that was , and appologise to the viewers. Indeed to suggest publically some major changes with reasoned argument.

Instead every race we have this ludicrous pretence that it is exciting and in some way wonderful. I just find that dishonesty and insulting to every viewers intelligence. None of them seem to be their own people - a stark contrast to James Hunt's comments who clearly feared nobody.

[ehagar]

Originally posted by ensign14
At least James Allen does not yell "boogity boogity boogity"...as soon as he does so I am applying for him to be put in the funny farm.

Although in his first year, his description of the starts were waaaaayyyy over the top. He sounded like he was having a.... ummm... orgasm.

After watching bikeweek at Daytona (Daytona 200, Supersport, Superstock, etc) I found the F1 race sorely lacking. Two passes worth mention and beyond that little of significant interest. The bike races had a bunch of OMG moments in them.

I've only read about the Monza races pre-chicane, but I get the feeling that watching 5 bikes finishing 0.1 of a second within each other and the drafting epics that I saw from Thursday to Saturday was pretty close (and probably better than Monza).

[David Beard]

Originally posted by VAR1016




Are you quite sure??

PdeRL

Absolutely. I bet you a million pounds.

[Barry Boor]

Absolutely. I bet you a million pounds.

COR! You must REALLY hate the Romans... sorry, football!

[Racer.Demon]

Originally posted by Roger Clark

Very well put. You expressed my views exactly.

Thanks, Roger. I'll even go one further - it's only F1 where lack of excitement leads to immediate discussion about the rules. I don't see the FIFA act upon the 0-0 draw at Millwall being the last straw in an endless string of tedious football matches, which must now be stopped by introducing 3 halves of 30 minutes, 20-yard wide goals, a 12th player in the first half for the lower end of the league table, penalty shoot-outs before the game to decide who is to kick off first, and of course, drinks bottles distribution allowed during play.

Another sport that is infinitely boring to the non-enthusiast is cycling - the Tour de France is a big yawner to me as a television sport, and yet it attracts millions of viewers and the concept remains unchanged. People aren't attracted by watching a cyclist do a solo run through the French countryside for four hours or by knowing who is going to win it ten days in advance, they are attracted by the things you can't see, that only the enthusiast will see.

The sad thing about television and commerce is that the unimportant things have to be made important too, to make more money out of them. We used to have football highlights, Tour de France stage finishes, and the Sunday Grand Prix. Now we have friendly matches shown live, entire cycling stages aired all day and the 'F1 weekend', consisting of endless, boring pre-race and post-race (and during-race...) chat, banter and 'analysis' (yuck, I hate that word), Friday practice is now shown on TV, qualifying was made into a TV event too - and so had to be made 'interesting' to attract the casual viewer needed for Bernie to ask his big-money television rights. I don't have a problem with the sport being boring at times, but I do have a problem with television having such a big impact on preventing it from being boring and thereby going against the principles that make it a sport in the first place.

Anyway, my 'boring' gripe with current F1 - although I still watch - is more along Pete's lines. I can take boring races but I can't stand boring cars. Today's products of aerodynamics and electronics take so much out of the spectacle of seeing a driver using his skill to race his car. The high-rev engine note is the only thing that impresses me of the current cars, apart from their sheer speed, but I'm underwhelmed by their taking corners as on rails. A lack of 'balance' is only shown by big, uneventful understeer or oversteer (which is impossible to correct and will see a car go off-track in a big but boring way) or those typical brief, skittish lateral movements before the car settles. They don't slide, don't have any suspension travel, and the overtaking moves look clumsy (which they probably are too).

But as fines said somewhere else, you can't turn back the clock and undo the developments of the nineties. Aero and gizmos are here to stay - an enthusiast will have to deal with them or look elsewhere.

[Don Capps]

I actually made an effort to watch the Speed coverage of the Oz GP as it was telecast since it will be among the few that I will watch that way, the rest being caught on the re-run -- if at all. Not sure it was a good decision in retrospect.

Why don't they stagger the grid? This lining up duck fashion in two rows absolutely baffles me. It would certainly open up the grid to some demon starts without the lurid swerving and jinking that is the hallmark of a current start.

I managed to force myself to keep the race on even though I thought it was pretty tame -- actually more like lame -- stuff. When cars starting pitting after only 10-11-12 laps, I was a bit boggled. Only maybe 50 kms into the event and this?

Michael Schumacher just sort of motored off into the distance and the poor Oz director tried to find something to focus upon and make exciting. The shots from the spectator areas seemed to be the current standard, more akin to the distances for observing artillery rounds than racing cars.

Are there actually numbers on the cars? I think I may have seen one or two, but I wasn't too sure about that. I kept thinking that I might be seeing something to do with advertising or an endorsement versus a racing number. Any effort to sort them out by helmets is simply another sign of the Apocolypse. I could barely see the helmets at the USGP much less sort who was who by the design.

I am not certain that were I not someone who had been already interested in this sort of thing that this race would entice me to look forward to more. However, in 18 attempts at this during the season there will be at least one race with something in it to recommend to others. At least the post that Racer.Demon wrote should remind us as to how we were just as delusional as the current crop are in our day.

Albert Park was a boring event. It really wasn't much of a race, so perhaps event is the better word to use.

On the other hand, despite missing a chunk of the Las Vegas Nextel Cup event due to a prior commitment, what I saw was infinitely better than Albert Park. There were actually passes for position, including for the lead. There were fights for position all through the pack. Same result at the front as two weeks ago, but under very different circumstances.

Then there was the activity in the closing laps at Homestead....

As I keep gravitating towards Grand Curmudgeon status, I find myself finding F1 a pleasant diversion at best and a real effort to follow the rest of the time. The whole scene seems to be divorced from any reality, economic or sporting. Perhaps, like many others, I am immune to its charms for any number of reasons, the most likely of which is that I see no reason to have to force myself to like something that does not seem to have that magic or charm or glow that makes me want to take that extra step.

Oh, I certainly am fairly well-informed on the F1 World of Today, but it is more the result of Habit than Commitment. I am too old and too tired to waste my time mooning over a series that does not spark any real sense of excitement or anticipation in me. I think the combination of watching it on television, coupled with the decline of any serious writing on the subject -- in my opinion that is, and -- Warning! Warning! Non-PC, Curmudgeon-like comment ahead! -- my discomfort with many of the current crop of F1 racing fans has relegated F1 Today to just another sport for me rather than being a Sport or a Passion.

I find Nextel Cup Series scene far more interesting than the current F1 scene. It is certainly imperfect, but I would leap at the chance to sit next Ol' DW -- "boogity boogity boogity" and all -- or Ol' BP anywhere than make the trek to Charlotte to sit next to Varsha, 'Obbs, and Matchett and squint at the local feed. Not that I would turn it down, but I would only be of some use as a faux Posey waxing lyrical about the rosy days when Racers were Racers and haybales the latest safety innovation.....

At least I now have some motivation to be in the Cup announcing booth -- getting all those chassis numbers form the Cup teams.....

Once upon a time, I had the dream of taking a season and following the GP teams for an entire season, it is now to follow the Cup teams for a season and produce something -- perhaps a book and/or an Autocouse-type annual -- from the experience.


Bira, really, it would be far less expensive than a season of F1 and gain us a foothold in the US market in an area we might want to consider.....

PS:

Originally posted by Racer.Demon
But as fines said somewhere else, you can't turn back the clock and undo the developments of the nineties. Aero and gizmos are here to stay - an enthusiast will have to deal with them or look elsewhere.

I think that I am looking elsewhere....

[RTH]

Originally posted by Racer.Demon


The high-rev engine note is the only thing that impresses me of the current cars.............

The sound of a 3 litre V12 Matra, BRM, or Ferrari with a maximum of 12,000 rpm sounded so much sweeter, and you could have back all the racing spectacle we all so miss - with changes to the vehicle regulations - but the FIA are too timid and weak to do anything about it.

[Ted Walker]

Im suprised that this post was allowed to appear.What has it got to do with Motor Sport History ?? I suppose there will be a long discussion on the last episode of Eastenders next. Just as well therea an alternative site !!!!!!

[Racer.Demon]

Originally posted by RTH


The sound of a 3 litre V12 Matra, BRM, or Ferrari with a maximum of 12,000 rpm sounded so much sweeter, and you could have back all the racing spectacle we all so miss - with changes to the vehicle regulations - but the FIA are too timid and weak to do anything about it.

That already exists and it's called Thoroughbred GP.

I like the old 3-litre sound better too, but I'm still impressed by the brute and uncompromising sound of the current F1 engines. It's not pretty but it's... impressive.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Ted Walker
Im suprised that this post was allowed to appear.What has it got to do with Motor Sport History ?? I suppose there will be a long discussion on the last episode of Eastenders next. Just as well therea an alternative site !!!!!!

Leicester City fan?

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by RTH


The sound of a 3 litre V12 Matra, BRM, or Ferrari with a maximum of 12,000 rpm sounded so much sweeter, and you could have back all the racing spectacle we all so miss - with changes to the vehicle regulations - but the FIA are too timid and weak to do anything about it.

When all 20 engines sound virtually the same where's the fun though? - almost as bad as the "Formula Ford" years now.

Give me the diversity in sports cars any time, thanks.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Don Capps

Are there actually numbers on the cars? I think I may have seen one or two, but I wasn't too sure about that. I kept thinking that I might be seeing something to do with advertising or an endorsement versus a racing number. Any effort to sort them out by helmets is simply another sign of the Apocolypse. I could barely see the helmets at the USGP much less sort who was who by the design,,,

These days (and don't laugh - please don't laugh - I know it's pathetic) - the way you're meant to distinguish between the two cars in a team is by the colour of the TV camera on top of the airbox. The FIA mandate that they're different colours.

FWIW, the only cars I am certain I saw numbers on were the Jags and the Toyotas...

(Yes, one can't really imagine kids getting passionate about "black TV camera" like they used to be about "Red 5" or "27".... cr*p, really, isn't it?)

[David Beard]

Originally posted by ensign14
Leicester City fan?

I have to agree with Ted. The GP was not good. I got up in the night, but went to sleep on the sofa. I nearly went to sleep when I tried again in the afternoon. But I cannot imagine what possible circumstance could cause me to watch a football match instead. And if that circumstance had occurred, I certainly wouldn't have posted about it on TNF.

[Don Capps]

Originally posted by Ted Walker
Im suprised that this post was allowed to appear.What has it got to do with Motor Sport History ?? I suppose there will be a long discussion on the last episode of Eastenders next. Just as well therea an alternative site !!!!!!

Ted,

Were we to discuss the true subject of this thread on another forum within the Atlas F1 Family of Fora, we would be hit by an endless volley of rotten vegatables and fruit.

And, as host, I do allow some variance from the usual guidelines at times since I have both a contrarian streak in me as well as being possessed of a notion that regimentation is best left to regiments.

[petefenelon]

Actually, according to the Sporting Regs, Sunday's race was illegal.

According to Clause 4 of Appendix 3 of the latest edition of the sporting regs....

(http://www.fia.com/r...Sport_Reg_a.pdf)

TROPHIES
Only 4 trophies will be presented during the podium ceremony:
a) winning driver
b) a representative of the winning constructor
c) second driver
d) third driver.
The trophies, which must be in the form of traditional cups, will be provided by the ASN and
must show:
a) the FIA Formula 1 World Championship official logo
b) the official name of the event
c) the driver's position.

I don't drink out of a steering wheel. What kind of "traditional cup" is that?

Anyone want to raise hell in Maxville over this blatant abuse of FIA rules?

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by Racer.Demon


That already exists and it's called Thoroughbred GP.

I like the old 3-litre sound better too, but I'm still impressed by the brute and uncompromising sound of the current F1 engines. It's not pretty but it's... impressive.

Yes fantastic technology, but in sound terms not even close to a flat-12 Ferrari and not in the same street as a V-16 BRM.

Now there's an idea: give them V-16 BRMs; that would sort the men from the boys, plus there'd be side bets on who would last until the end.

And we noise fans would have a splendid treat every fortnight.

PdeRL

[Option1]

Oh well, just to be the sand in the underwear, I will say I enjoyed the GP as I do most modern GPs, just as I enjoyed them back in the 80s and 90s, just as I enjoy reading about them way back into the 1900s.

Kinda funny in some ways - RC thinks TNF is misguided in believing only the good ol' days were true and TNF thinks the RC is misguided in believing only now counts. I think they're both right.

Guess I'm a bit out of place here in that, for me, Nostalgia doesn't mean "Nothin's good now days." In fact, it's tempting to post the link to Monty Python's Four Yorkshiremen again.

Neil

[Roger Clark]

I hope I am not the only one reading and agreeing with what Racer.demon is saying. Formula 1 racing has a right to be boring. It depresses me immensely when people on this forum talk about the quality of the Show. To discuss things in these terms is to accept the values of Max and Bernie. If we accept that the quality of the television programme is all that matters then we will end up with handicap races to keep the thing competitive. We are currently witnessing a very great racing driver and a very great team and in years to come we will look back upon this golden age. It would be better to have more variety in the cars and engines, but was it really better to have a field full of V8s from the same factory, or 2.5 litre fours? Nobody would claim that the current scene is perfect but it is an undesirable consequence of nostalgia to believe that the past is always and automatically better.

With regard to football, I have seen the light in David Beard's eyes when we talk about it, and I've always supected that VAR1016 is a closet Millwall fan. Seriously, I am a Manchester United fan, but anyone who saw Aresenal on Saturday and was not left with a feeling of awe can have very little soul.

[Don Capps]

Originally posted by Option1
Kinda funny in some ways - RC thinks TNF is misguided in believing only the good ol' days were true and TNF thinks the RC is misguided in believing only now counts. I think they're both right.

Guess I'm a bit out of place here in that, for me, Nostalgia doesn't mean "Nothin's good now days."

I often have this thought: "Why should I have to like (insert your choice)? And, if I don't, why should I have to apologize about it?"

I like F1 as it is today, but not sure that I really enjoy it all that much. However, given an option as whether to muddle about with 2004 or 1964 racing stuff, no contest -- 1964. But, I really do enjoy NASCAR far more today -- if that is possible -- than I did just a few decades ago.

Were it not for my association with Atlas, I think that it is safe to say that my interest in the current F1 would about zero. Information is available so I take a look and I follow things. For several years my only F1 involvement was to glance through my Autosports, Motor Sports, On Tracks, and so forth as well as buy Autocourse at the end of a season. It was almost all IMSA, CART, and NASCAR.

At some point, perhaps not that very far down the road, someone else will be running this place and I am sure things will change. Probably something more akin to Senior Racing Comments than TNF.

[Barry Boor]

Don't worry, Neil (Option1), you are most certainly NOT alone in still enjoying F1 today.

I wouldn't say that I don't get a bit depressed about some aspects of the modern version, (all the cars - except Williams - look the same etc etc etc) but look at 1964 - how much different were they all then?

To me, F1 is F1 and no matter how relatively processional (how can guys driving cars at 200 mph be boring?) it is, it's still in my blood and will never leave me.

Talking of boring... I see we are in for an epic Cup Final this year....

[Darren Galpin]

Originally posted by Don Capps



At some point, perhaps not that very far down the road, someone else will be running this place and I am sure things will change. Probably something more akin to Senior Racing Comments than TNF.

Really? Not everyone is Senior......... I personally don't appreciate current racing quite as much as I used to, but then I can't help but wonder - were we spioiled in the era's we are nostalgic for, and were they special cases rather than the norm? I'm far too young to remember anything but racing from the early 1980s onwards, yet I can remember plenty of seasons where one team dominated in the same way as Ferrari or whoever it shall be is now. Close seasons with multiple challengers are very rare, and should be savoured when they happen. When we look back and say that racing was better and closer in the past, we only ever look at certain single seasons. Often the races weren't so different (forget track manners etc).

As for the cars, I appreciate both cars modern and ancient. I love the Maserati 250F, and think it is the best car ever. But this doesn't stop me liking modern cars, and their technical elegance (I work in a techie industry, so you will have to bear with me on this). Agreed, the technical regs need changing to sort out the over reliance on aero, but this doesn't mean that I can't be impressed with them.

Also, I wonder if there is an element of rose-tintedness when people say that all of the modern cars look the same. If you showed a picture of a 1950s Grand Prix grid, with it full of front engined cars, to a modern audience, they would also say that all of the cars look the same. It all depends on your point of reference and where your primary interests are. I have a massive interest in nostalgia, but I would have to get a book to help distinguish between early Ferrari's and BRM's for instance (except one's obviously different such as Lancia D50) - they don't come as obviously to me as to many others here on TNF, but then I don't have first hand experience of them either.

There will always be Nostalgia, and there will always be people willing to dig into times past. It happens today (with the likes of myself, Quintin Cloud, Daniel King etc) with people who weren't alive then, and it will continue into the future. If it didn't, where would all the historians and archeologists come from?

[mikedeering]

I confess that I too got bored of the GP and watched the Millwall-Tranmere game too - which was pretty exciting for a 0-0 draw. I admit to checking the GP result first - having read the reports of the Ferrari steamroller I was already less than inclined to watch the action. If the race was live I probably would have watched more of it (in the desperate hope the action got better!) but knowing it was going to be boring race in advance turned me right off.

[ian senior]

Originally posted by RTH
I can only imagine the current commentator must have some kind of special hold over his job in the television company, otherwise I cannot imagine why he is still there.He is universally unpopular with everyone I speak to on the subject.

He, and the rest of the presentation team are a major reason for my dissatisfaction with what is served up to us.

If only they would be honest , and say what an unacceptably poor spectacle that was , and appologise to the viewers. Indeed to suggest publically some major changes with reasoned argument.

Instead every race we have this ludicrous pretence that it is exciting and in some way wonderful. I just find that dishonesty and insulting to every viewers intelligence. None of them seem to be their own people - a stark contrast to James Hunt's comments who clearly feared nobody.

Absolutely correct, and if I may return to the subject of football once again, listen to Alan Green, the football commentator on Radio 5 Live. If a game is rubbish, he will say so, and in no uncertain terms. We could do with some of this in the F1 coverage. If the BBC still had the rights, it may be possible, but ITV are hardly likely to sanction someone who is almost telling viewers to turn off (and miss the adverts), are they?

[RTH]

I'm going to support Allen Brown for both the title and first sentence of this thread.

It was irony, tongue in cheek, the point being you have to be a seriously dedicated motor racing enthusiast to even be a regular contributor to this forum - that is taken as read anyway.

It was to make the point that despite all the hype, promises, and nonesense we have been fed by the president of the FIA , Autosport, and ITV in particular , it was desperately dissapointing, and same as it ever was, with just nothing anywhere to latch on to of any interest. Even worse than previous recent seasons, - which I do not think will ever be looked back on as a golden age - quite the opposite. Its a small grid of cars which all look identical - bar tiny details all sound the same , and run round like a spread out train - with less drama and spectacle than motorway traffic.

So bad in fact , that even football - which tends not to be a common interest of motorsport spectators, on this occassion , was preferable to the Grand Prix. You can't have anything more damning than that !

I think most people who write on here praiseing standards of a past era , do not want to return to the past , they want something good now , and lessons can be learned from what went before , to make progress in the right direction. We certainly need that now desperately.

[ianm1808]

Originally posted by Roger Clark
With regard to football, I have seen the light in David Beard's eyes when we talk about it, and I've always supected that VAR1016 is a closet Millwall fan. Seriously, I am a Manchester United fan, but anyone who saw Aresenal on Saturday and was not left with a feeling of awe can have very little soul.

I feel for you ever so slightly (as a Liverpool fan) that you've got them in the semis... But I can't see why people are saying it's going to be a boring cup final? A first division or better still a second division side against either one of the two best teams in the land?? Come on! That's fantastic!

Though I wish it was Liverpool V Tranmere.

Oh yeah , the F1 race... Hmmm... Well I ruined it by turning on Ceefax first thing in the morning to see "Schumacher wins" or a phrase thereof. So that ruined the surprise. But I haven't felt so numbed by an F1 race since well... the year before last.

I flicked across to watch Millwall V Tranmere (What a great job Dennis Wise is doing) and found it infintely more interesting than the procession on ITV. And that pains me slightly to say. Though I love F1 and football in equal measure and being used to disappointment from supporting Liverpool , nothing disappointed me more than watching that race. A Grand Prix or two lower league teams battling out a 0-0? I'll watch the match.

Just my two cents.

Ian.

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by Roger Clark

...With regard to football, I have seen the light in David Beard's eyes when we talk about it, and I've always supected that VAR1016 is a closet Millwall fan. Seriously, I am a Manchester United fan, but anyone who saw Aresenal on Saturday and was not left with a feeling of awe can have very little soul.

Fat chance! Actually I see no closets. And I bet you five million pounds that I like football less than David Beard!

I grew up in Manchester, and all the time I was there, I don't think I ever met anyone who supported Manchester City....

PdeRL

[Mallory Dan]

Agree with RacerDemon and RTH, the GP was cr*p, but did any of us really expect any better. ITV was its usual awful self, the bloke Allen is an absolute joke, the adverts the best bit normally.

My first GP era was the mid-70s, and while I accept it may have been a bit like FF, there was so much chassis variety. Different shapes, very distinctive colour schemes, usually at least 5-6 different winners per year, and maybe best of all, GP racing then was pretty exclusive.

The more I get into TNF and 10/10ths, the less the current GP scene does for me.

[petefenelon]

GP racing then was pretty exclusive

If by this you mean it was a "closed shop" then I'm glad you're wrong - part of the fascination of the "good old days" for me was that, to a first approximation, if you had a car, a few bob and a dream you could have a go!;)

If by this you mean that the teams didn't attract a braying mob of sub-literate "supporters" who jeer and rant obscenely and know nothing about the sport - yes, you're absolutely right "the right crowd and no crowding" and all that!

[Racer.Demon]

Originally posted by petefenelon
If by this you mean that the teams didn't attract a braying mob of sub-literate "supporters" who jeer and rant obscenely and know nothing about the sport - yes, you're absolutely right "the right crowd and no crowding" and all that!

Underlining my point on the influence (or side effects) of television... :

Or when taken from another angle - motor racing used to be ignored by the serious newspaper press, with an exception being made when someone was killed. A driver death would be the only press Grand Prix racing would get in most Dutch newspapers of the seventies, otherwise it was boycotted - there's no other word for it. Today they report on the sport as they do on any other sport, and publish lengthy background articles as well - proof that F1 has become safe and accepted and can't be ignored as a sport with one of the biggest followings in the world. Subsequently it will attract many casual 'fans' to which the sport's ringmasters believe they must cater.

[Mallory Dan]

If by this you mean that the teams didn't attract a braying mob of sub-literate "supporters" who jeer and rant obscenely and know nothing about the sport - yes, you're absolutely right "the right crowd and no crowding" and all that! [/B][/QUOTE]


Pete, what do you think I mean ... Of course the latter, it started going downhill I guess with Mansell mania from 85-86 on. Sun readers started to become experts, drivers/managers/sponsor characters/hangers on developed "personalities" in the name of self-publicity, and worst of all TV started to take over.

I realise I'm a bit of a snob, but I much preferred the days when no-one else had heard of half the GP grids, certainly didn't know what a Copersucar, Wolf-Williams, Boro, or Theodore was.

Most of it down to BCE I'm afraid, IMHO. .

Dan