15 replies to this topic

[soubriquet]

My understanding is that the championship winning Vanwall engine was essentially built around a set of Manx Norton cylinder heads. My background being more bikes than cars, I am aware that the Manx Norton had one of the first normally aspirated engines to make better than 100bhp per litre. The engineer responsible for this head design (name?) used a flow bench to develop it. Amazing for an industry so rooted in the past, even in the 1950's.

My question is: was there any connection between Vanwall and Norton, and if so, what was its nature?

Cheers

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by soubriquet
My understanding is that the championship winning Vanwall engine was essentially built around a set of Manx Norton cylinder heads. My background being more bikes than cars, I am aware that the Manx Norton had one of the first normally aspirated engines to make better than 100bhp per litre. The engineer responsible for this head design (name?) used a flow bench to develop it. Amazing for an industry so rooted in the past, even in the 1950's.

My question is: was there any connection between Vanwall and Norton, and if so, what was its nature?

Cheers

The engineer who developed the Manx engine was Joe Craig.

The connection was that Tony Vandervell was a director of the Norton Company then based at Bracebridge St in Birmingham. In fact GAV had Peter Berthon work on a prototype motorcycle engine during the period of the BRM Trust.

The Vanwall's engine was developed from the Manx Norton engine in essence, but used a Rolls-Royce crankcase cast in Aluminium alloy by Austin.

PdeRL

[Gary Davies]

Vanwall's first engine was designed by a Polish gentleman by the name if Kusmicki who had worked with Norton. It so happened ;) that this engine had the same bore and stroke of a 500cc Norton and the the combustion chamber, the shape and size of the valve, plugs and ports were more than a little Nortonesque. Even the use of hairpin valve springs, four Amal carburettors and the general configuration of the exhaust system were very Norton.

But the engine was not a Norton engine.

[Vitesse2]

The Norton company had run into financial difficulties in 1913, due to the chairman's illness with a heart problem. Among the creditors was RT Shelley Ltd, a Birmingham engineering company - chairman one CA Vandervell, founder of Vandervell Bearings and father of GA "Tony" Vandervell. After a bidding war against the other major creditors Lycetts, the drive belt manufacturers, CAV found himself chairman of Norton. He refloated the company as Norton Motors Ltd, installing a fellow Shelleys director (William Mansell) on the board and moving the firm to Aston, adjacent to the Shelleys works. It was here that Nortons first started making their own engines.

Ironically, Shelleys eventually became a subsidiary of Nortons!

Tony Vandervell raced Nortons in his youth and joined the board in 1946. As VAR1016 points out, he was at that time involved with the BRM Trust and approached Berthon with an offer of help from Norton. Berthon prevaricated and it was several months before any decisions were taken. I suspect this was one of several reasons why GAV withdrew his support for BRM and went his own way!

See "Vanwall" by Jenkinson and Posthumus for more details.

[bradbury west]

Hi

A book dealing with Vanwall which seldom if ever gets a mention is Ian Bamsey's; Vanwall - a technical appraisal. It seems good to me with race reports mingled with good technical stuff and seemingly accurate historical detail.


Published by Haynes produced by G T Foulis and Racecar Engineering of which Bamsey was/is Editor, itself a very useful magazine.

ISBN 0-85429-838-X

First puiblished in 1990

Bamsey also did asimilar books on the V16 Auto Union, with some good stuff in it, especially pictures, and a very good one on the Lotus 25

They were only £12.95 when new. Sometimes I see them at the dealers stalls


See how you get on.

There is too much to transcribe.

Leo Kusmicki went on to work for Rootes on the Imp development after Vanwall and Norton before that. If you need more info give me a shout.

Roger Lund.

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Vanwall
Vanwall's first engine was designed by a Polish gentleman by the name if Kusmicki who had worked with Norton.

I wanted to check the spelling of this gentleman's name. I found: Kuzmicki (Jenkinson/Posthumus and Ludvigsen), Kosmicki (Moss/Pomeroy) and Kuswicki (Georgano).

originally posted by VAR1016
The Vanwall's engine was developed from the Manx Norton engine in essence, but used a Rolls-Royce crankcase cast in Aluminium alloy by Austin.

Are you sure (about Austin).

[soubriquet]

Thanks all, for the information.

Originally posted by Vitesse2
The Norton company had run into financial difficulties in 1913, due to the chairman's illness with a heart problem. Among the creditors was RT Shelley Ltd, a Birmingham engineering company - chairman one CA Vandervell, founder of Vandervell Bearings and father of GA "Tony" Vandervell. After a bidding war against the other major creditors Lycetts, the drive belt manufacturers, CAV found himself chairman of Norton.

CAV. Now that rings a bell. Wasn't there a company called CAV that built magnetos and such? Was it the same?

Those Vandervells seem to have had a nice combination of engineering and business skills. There must be a story there. Presumably they were of Dutch extraction?

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
CA Vandervell, founder of Vandervell Bearings and father of GA "Tony" Vandervell.

Is it true that the elder Vandervell was founder of VP? I thought that Tony V founded it, and became Chairman and Managing Director, albeit with capital provided by his father.

CAV was the company founded by Tony's father.

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by soubriquet


Those Vandervells seem to have had a nice combination of engineering and business skills. There must be a story there. Presumably they were of Dutch extraction?

The family origins were in Flanders, the original name was Van der Velden. They moved from Antwerp to London early in the 19th Century.

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by Roger Clark

I wanted to check the spelling of this gentleman's name. I found: Kuzmicki (Jenkinson/Posthumus and Ludvigsen), Kosmicki (Moss/Pomeroy) and Kuswicki (Georgano).


Are you sure (about Austin).

The R-R B40 engine was used in Austin's "Champ" military vehicle. Vandervell had Austin cast some in aluminium - I think this comes from Jenkinson & Posthumus

PdeRL

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Roger Clark

Is it true that the elder Vandervell was founder of VP? I thought that Tony V founded it, and became Chairman and Managing Director, albeit with capital provided by his father.

CAV was the company founded by Tony's father.

Oops - how right you are Roger (as usual!) For some reason I had it in my head that VP Ltd was an offshoot of CAV Ltd, but he'd sold out to Lucas seven years earlier.

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by VAR1016


The R-R B40 engine was used in Austin's "Champ" military vehicle. Vandervell had Austin cast some in aluminium - I think this comes from Jenkinson & Posthumus

PdeRL

Jenkinson & Posthumus say that Leyland Motors provided the patterns and drawings, the Vandervell drawing office made the necessary modifications for it to be made of aluminium and Aeroplane and Motor Ltd of Coventry did the casting work.

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by Roger Clark

Jenkinson & Posthumus say that Leyland Motors provided the patterns and drawings, the Vandervell drawing office made the necessary modifications for it to be made of aluminium and Aeroplane and Motor Ltd of Coventry did the casting work.

Oh well! Not only is nostalgia not what it used to be; neither is my memory!

PdeRL

[marat]

The recently publised Vanwall book written by Ed Mc Donough contains a whole chapter on
the Norton and Rolls-Royce connections.
But no mention of Austin, Aeroplane or Motor ltd.

[Gary Davies]

Originally posted by Roger Clark

I wanted to check the spelling of this gentleman's name. I found: Kuzmicki (Jenkinson/Posthumus and Ludvigsen), Kosmicki (Moss/Pomeroy) and Kuswicki (Georgano).

Roger the way I spelt it does look a bit anglicised, doesn't it.

It's spelt that way by Klemantaski and Frostick in The Vanwall Story.

[Ray Bell]

I thought the crankcase was already in alloy ex-Rolls Royce? It was in the six-cylinder version as supplied to BMC for the Princess R and I'm sure the Champ's military version engine was the same.

Perhaps the situation was that they cast a bare crankcase, without the waterjackets and cylinders, upon which they could build their engine.

Point is that there was no need for an alloy version of the patterns, and that Austin would never have had them. Or am I wrong?