19 replies to this topic

[dretceterini]

Am I mistaken, or wasn't there 2 Matra V-12s; one with a wide and one with a narrow angle???

[Ray Bell]

I think you might be right... maybe one was used by Ligier?

[Don Capps]

MS9, MS12, MS71, MS76, and MS81

[Dennis Hockenbury]

I always had the understanding that the Matra V-12 family used a piston (V) angle of 60 deg. throughout it's design/service life.

However there was much development in the heads, with various valve angles and sizes being utilized along with differing piston crown designs and material used in concert with the different head designs.

The 1969 MS-9 design used a valve total included angle of 56° which required a deep combustion chamber and a high-domed piston design.

The 1970 MS12 V12 used 31 mm inlet valves inclined at 16° and 27 mm exhaust valves at 17½° for a total included angle of 33½°. Valve sizes were increased later in the 1970 season to 33.0 and 27.2 mm respectively.

There were reductions in overall crankcase length and width during the life of the V-12, and considerable repackaging of the ancillaries to maximize packaging of the engine for ground effects chassis considerations.

I would be pleased to see more information, or corrections on this as well.

[jgm]

I remember reading an article in a magazine about Matra. I think it was in the form of an interview with some leading light in the company and it might have been after they stopped racing. In the background to the accompanying phototgraph of this luminary was a range of racing engines on display and the thing which caught my attention was that one of the engines appeared to be a flat-12. Does anybody know if Matra experimented with such a layout?

[Dennis Hockenbury]

I have never heard of Flat-12 Matra engine, but that doesn't mean they were not evaluating that configuration.

I was doing some googling and found some interesting pictures of the various Matra engines. I wasn't aware for example that Matra produced a Turbo V-6 in 1981 that never raced.

[dretceterini]

The engine with the injection between the cams (called MS9 in the photos mentioned above) seems to have a different cylinder head angle than the other motors, with the injection on top.

I didn't know about the turbo V-6 either. At one time Ligier was going to run a turbo, but it was an Alfa straight 4.

[GIGLEUX]

Thank you Dennis for finding so beautiful pictures.
About the V6 turbo: as you can see Matra realized it but it never went on the track because of a conflictual situation between Peugeot and Matra. Talbot (Peugeot in fact) was the main sponsor of Ligier whose cars were named Talbot Ligier but they were entering the world of F1 and didn't realize the extremely high cost of a racing engine; so when Matra presented the bill for its new turbo engine the Peugeot chairmans found it too high and had the feeling of being stolen; so they refused to pay, Matra refused to reduce it and kept the engine.

[philippe7]

Originally posted by jgm
In the background to the accompanying phototgraph of this luminary was a range of racing engines on display and the thing which caught my attention was that one of the engines appeared to be a flat-12.

The photograph you mention was probably taken in the engine's room at the Matra Museum in Romorantin. I visited there about 4 years ago , and yes, there is indeed a flat-12 on display, but it does look like a one-off prototype , with a crankcase apparently machined-out from an alloy block ( not "moulded" , or whatever the correct term is ) and the other components ( cylinders , heads , etc...) identical to those of the v-12's .

And yes, there is also a turbo V-6 in the same museum , but not in the engine room : it is actually attached to a prototype Ligier monocoque ( JS 19 B ? , 1982/83 ) , I had sent a note about it to the "6th gear" site , for the "cars that never raced" page in the "marginal facts" section.

I do not know what the future of this museum is , now that Matra has closed their factory there , but while ( if ? ) it still exists it is definitely a place to visit for any TNF'er passing through central France.

[jph]

Originally posted by Philippe7
I do not know what the future of this museum is , now that Matra has closed their factory there , but while ( if ? ) it still exists it is definitely a place to visit for any TNF'er passing through central France.

I would certainly echo that. The museum in Romorantin was still open last summer, after the nearby factory closure had been announced. It contains a full range of well presented (and not over-restored) Matra race cars, plus a lot of prototype and concept cars. I remember the V6 and Flat 12 engines, though by the time I had worked my way round to the engine section of the museum the children were getting a bit fractious so we had to leave!

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by dretceterini
The engine with the injection between the cams (called MS9 in the photos mentioned above) seems to have a different cylinder head angle than the other motors, with the injection on top.

I didn't know about the turbo V-6 either. At one time Ligier was going to run a turbo, but it was an Alfa straight 4.

Ligier ran Renault V6 turbos for a while (Guy Ligier being so well-connected in France kind of helped - same as it helped him get Renault V10s a bit later), then they were down to use the Alfa straight-four. But Arnoux said it was rubbish, and in any case Alfa had been taken over by FIAT who wanted to keep only one brand in each class of motorsport - so they wanted an excuse to get out of F1 and used Arnoux's statement as a scapegoat. The straight-four was abandoned (Osella ended up with naming rights to the old V8) and the only engine that was available and would fit into the back of the Ligier was the old stand-up Megatron-badged BMW.

That was almost the end of Ligier as a credible team, really - the ancient BMWs weren't up to much,. the '88 Judd car was a disaster, and the Cosworth, Lambo and Renault cars weren't much more than occasional points-scorers... only the Ligier-Mugens started to show any more promise....

[Mallory Dan]

I think I remember in late 79 early 80, Neepasch was rumoured to be going to Ligier, and taking the BMW turbo with him. This never happened of course, anyone else remember this, and if so what happened, and why did it never come to pass ?

[philippe7]

You're right about Neerpasch, but as far as I remember ( no relevant documentation here in the office....) he was going to be head of racing at TALBOT, at the time when the former french SIMCA company was let down by their previous owner ( Chrysler) and taken over by Peugeot . They resurected the name "Talbot" from their archives, to use it as the company's premium name, and the first decision was to go to Formula 1 for the 1981 (?) season. The original plan was very ambitious, and it was in fact announced that they would use a turbo BMW engine , and Jochen Neerpasch was announced as the team manager. But the deal fell through , if I rememeber correctly due to BMW's decision to go with Brabham instead , as they prefered to join forces with an experienced team rather than a brand new beginner......so at the last minute, Talbot made a deal with Ligier to re-brand the existing team Talbot-Ligier ( with certainly some cash at hand ) , and go back to the by then "old" Matra V12 ( due to the former Matra-Simca connection ) instead of the Cosworth which Ligier had used whith great success in 79-80. Jacques Lafitte had a fairly good season with the Matra engine in 1981 actually ( a couple of wins ? )

The use of the V12 was supposed to be an interim measure while Matra developed the Turbo V6 mentioned earlier, but as we know that engine never made it to the race track . ( although it probably was bench-tested at some stage )

[dretceterini]

Yes, but what about the origional question? Did the early and later V-12s have different cylinder head angles?

[GIGLEUX]

No, always V at 60°.

[philippe7]

As it has been said earlier, what "apparently" gave the impression of different angles is that the first version had the injection trumpets on top of the camshaft covers , therefore visually making a wide "V" , whereas the later versions had the trumpets in two parallel rows in the middle of the V ...this is very visible from the pictures linked above ( and don't those 6 "organ pipe" style exhausts on the MS11 picture look absolutely gorgeous ???? )

[dretceterini]

Thanks everyone

[Felix]

If somebody can give me an website to post pictures (or tell me how to do it) I can post pictures of most Matra engines (incl the V6 turbo and flat 12). When one of our subscribers 'built' a virtual 3-d model of the MS80 I sent them to him, and he posted here somewhere - but I can't for the life of me remember his name or thread.

[philippe7]

Sorry for reviving this old thread, but now that I've learned how to post pictures, I just can't refrain...


Here are two photos I took in the Romorantin museum




This is the Flat 12 prototype discussed above





Well, easy, this is a 1968 MS11 , isn't it ? Well, not quite so . The MS 11 ran with an MS9 V12 , the original one with the "wide angle" inlet trumpets, and the "organ pipes" style exhausts. This is indeed an 1968 MS11 chassis, but fitted with the 1970 MS12 V12 . This hybrid was used to test the new engine at the end of the 1969 season , before construction of the MS120 chassis which was to host that engine for the 1970 season. ( are you getting lost with all those MS's ? )


That car may have been used as such for racing a couple of hillclimbs in France in 1970, if my memory serves me well...

[charles r]

Sorry for reviving this old thread, but now that I've learned how to post pictures, I just can't refrain...


Here are two photos I took in the Romorantin museum




This is the Flat 12 prototype discussed above





Well, easy, this is a 1968 MS11 , isn't it ? Well, not quite so . The MS 11 ran with an MS9 V12 , the original one with the "wide angle" inlet trumpets, and the "organ pipes" style exhausts. This is indeed an 1968 MS11 chassis, but fitted with the 1970 MS12 V12 . This hybrid was used to test the new engine at the end of the 1969 season , before construction of the MS120 chassis which was to host that engine for the 1970 season. ( are you getting lost with all those MS's ? )


That car may have been used as such for racing a couple of hillclimbs in France in 1970, if my memory serves me well...

Philippe, any chance that these images could be reposted?