43 replies to this topic

[David Beard]

I know I'm going to feel an unworthy TNFer when someone tells me what this is, but I just don't know

Snetterton late 50s I think...courtesy L.J.Braithwaite.

[Coogar]

I'm only guessing, but might it possibly be the Bobby Baird Emeryson fitted with Duesenberg Straight 8 ? I believe it did appear in this form early in the fifties. However the road car in the background (Jensen ?) suggests late fifties in which case.....????

[David Beard]

Originally posted by Coogar
I'm only guessing, but might it possibly be the Bobby Baird Emeryson fitted with Duesenberg Straight 8 ? I believe it did appear in this form early in the fifties. However the road car in the background (Jensen ?) suggests late fifties in which case.....????

Thanks Coogar!
It's an AC in the background, isn't it? Which also suggests late 50s. Did anyone else race the car?

[GIGLEUX]

The car behind seems to be an AC ACECA.
Thinks too the car can be the Emeryson-Duesenberg.

[David McKinney]

Sorry chaps
I'm sure the Emeryson-Duesenberg didn't race that late - at least not in England

[dbw]

the engine is a T-51 bugatti...possibly[but doubtfully] a T-54.....

[dbw]

T-51 for sure....camcover bolt placement ..[a T-55 is basically the same engine...a T-51a is a 1500cc version .... they all look pretty much the same from this angle]



if there's any doubt check out the give-away wing nut on the oil filter cannister[down inbetween the two sets of four pipes] and the unique bugatti air-bleed tap on the top of the waterpump...

my guess is whatever it is also sports a pre-select transmission...[a common addition to T-57's..and great to race with.]

[David McKinney]

So - must be the CDL then?

[David Beard]

Originally posted by David McKinney
So - must be the CDL then?

OK, I have to ask......David, what is the CDL?

[Patrick Fletcher]

Is that Dirk Bogarde looking on ?

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by David Beard



OK, I have to ask......David, what is the CDL?

Thank God for that - I'd hate to think I was alone in my ignorance!

But I sure as hell wasn't going to be first to ask ....

Originally posted by Patrick Fletcher
Is that Dirk Bogarde looking on ?

Looks like him, but if it's late 50s, then I'd say the chap in the picture is a little bit too old to actually be him.

[dbw]

while we're"skirting"the question....is that a female standing behind in picture#3??

once we are told just what the car is...does the time and place of these photos have any significance?

could it be an old fawawee with a boogaatee motor??

[GIGLEUX]

CDL means Centaur Developments Ltd, a little firm based in London at the end of 1948, beginning of 1949. with three chaps named James Boothby, the disigner Michael Chorlton and Charles Brookes. The purpose was to built Formula B models and a Formula A (one) car. All I know is that only the F1 was built: in fact it was the Bugatti 51A (1500-8 cyl) that Chorlton raced in 1947-48
(#51126). In 1947 the car was entered by F.O. Cleveland-Harmer. In 1949 the car appeared at least at Jersey and the International Trophy. It was modified in monoplace form.
Excuse the bad quality of the pictures below (photocopies in fact). M.C.Chorlton is on the first pict.

[Lotus23]

This is a long way from my area of expertise (most things are), but the tires look like Dunlop R5's: weren't they an early sixties development?

Just a passing thought...

[dbw]

well..i was half right....judging from the xeroxes there's a GP bug under all that bodywork!haven't seen the rear end but the front is a pair of bouble A-arms grafted on the bug frame rails[and the rails haven't been narrowed]...the drivetrain is still bugatti complete with the gp gearbox..the engine retains the offset cam-driven scuttle mounted mag[looks like a scintilla]tho in the pics a center steer the gp wheel was also retained...i don't have the latest info but what i have shows 51126 to still be in the UK....anyone know it's current guise?

[David Birchall]

Originally posted by Lotus23
This is a long way from my area of expertise (most things are), but the tires look like Dunlop R5's: weren't they an early sixties development?

Just a passing thought...

No, those are Dunlop Five Stud I believe, proper to the period.

Lovely looking car, what became of it?
Regards, David B

[dbw]

R-5's in the first 3 photos....certainly in the same period as the aceca...

[David McKinney]

David, Richard
Feeling in a provocative mood, I went to bed after posting my CDL suggestion - and now Jean-Maurice has saved me the trouble of digging out an answer to your question

dbw
T51 #51126 is one of those instances of two cars being built from one. Can't remember the exact details, but IIRC it's something to do with the CDL getting a new frame at one stage, and someone building up a replacement 51126 on the rebuilt original frame, while someone else put the original T51 bits into a different frame, and also claimed the 51126 identity
To confuse the picture further, the CDL (or Chorlton Special) has now been rebuilt from its non-Bugatti remains with a replica Bugatti chassis and 2.5 Alta engine, and raced at a VSCC Donington meeting a couple of years ago

[dbw]

one bugatti can spawn three cars.[two of them the same]...will wonders never cease.

a friend told me how one day he walked into the shop of paul faulks-halbard[sp] as he was milling a twelve high stack of t-35 dashboards. smiling he said "well , you just never know when you may need a spare."

[David Beard]

Thankyou all....

I note in Jean-Maurices' photos that the front suspension, radiator header tank, and body sectional shape are all quite different to those seen in the photos I posted.

Anyone out there collect old Snetterton programmes?

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by David McKinney
David, Richard
Feeling in a provocative mood, I went to bed after posting my CDL suggestion - and now Jean-Maurice has saved me the trouble of digging out an answer to your question

dbw
T51 #51126 is one of those instances of two cars being built from one. Can't remember the exact details, but IIRC it's something to do with the CDL getting a new frame at one stage, and someone building up a replacement 51126 on the rebuilt original frame, while someone else put the original T51 bits into a different frame, and also claimed the 51126 identity
To confuse the picture further, the CDL (or Chorlton Special) has now been rebuilt from its non-Bugatti remains with a replica Bugatti chassis and 2.5 Alta engine, and raced at a VSCC Donington meeting a couple of years ago

When Spencer Longland rebuilt the Chorlton Special he told me they had actually used a genuine Bugatti chassis frame, not a replica.

[David McKinney]

Roger Hart told me it was a replica

[David Beard]

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
CDL means Centaur Developments Ltd, a little firm based in London at the end of 1948, beginning of 1949. with three chaps named James Boothby, the disigner Michael Chorlton and Charles Brookes. The purpose was to built Formula B models and a Formula A (one) car. All I know is that only the F1 was built: in fact it was the Bugatti 51A (1500-8 cyl) that Chorlton raced in 1947-48
(#51126). In 1947 the car was entered by F.O. Cleveland-Harmer. In 1949 the car appeared at least at Jersey and the International Trophy. It was modified in monoplace form.
Excuse the bad quality of the pictures below (photocopies in fact). M.C.Chorlton is on the first pict.

I just used the search function to look up James Boothby, hence the thread resurrection. He has just come up in a conversation I was having with Peter Tutthill, of Kieft book fame. Apparently Boothby was also involved with a car called the JBM. Might even have been planned as an F1 car. Any connection with CDL?

[Milan Fistonic]

This was in a recently acquired 1949 Motor Sport magazine.

[dbw]

...exactly why one should avoid gp bugattis that have been in the UK....

[David Beard]

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
CDL means Centaur Developments Ltd, a little firm based in London at the end of 1948, beginning of 1949. with three chaps named James Boothby, the disigner Michael Chorlton and Charles Brookes. The purpose was to built Formula B models and a Formula A (one) car. All I know is that only the F1 was built: in fact it was the Bugatti 51A (1500-8 cyl) that Chorlton raced in 1947-48
(#51126). In 1947 the car was entered by F.O. Cleveland-Harmer. In 1949 the car appeared at least at Jersey and the International Trophy. It was modified in monoplace form.
Excuse the bad quality of the pictures below (photocopies in fact). M.C.Chorlton is on the first pict.

GIGLEUX, do you think you restore this photo to TNF? AdamF has sent me some photos of the CDL I would like to compare: they do seem to look different to the photos I originally posted.

(They have a copyright issue, so we don't like to post them.)

[GIGLEUX]

Did it!

[David Beard]

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
Did it!

Thanks Gigleux

Adam...what do you think!

[fivestar]

Attached if my memory serves me right is a photo taken of the CDL Chorlton a couple of years ago at the British Empire Trophy meeting at Donnington.
The owner then was Roger Hart

[Racers Edge]

Bugatti T-51 #51126 is still in England and with the same owner for the past 20 years.

I do understand that Charles Dean also claims 51126 that his father built in the 1980's using a NOS Bugatti frame bought from Jack Richards (now dead) that had no official ID on it...

Why Dean claimed that number is still a mystery?

The way I see this, is that the Chorlton Special later was built with new 2.5 liter Alta engine, and then the 2.3 liter Bugatti engine it replaced was later used to build a T51 claiming the 51126 ID number.
I will find out next week, as I will have the car's ID Professionally recorded & photographed with all numbers of the rear cross member / engine sump (car#) engine number and axle numbers, and anything else I can find, to show it's true identy.

[ukpilot]

I actually owned and raced the Chorlton Alta in the 60s. If anyone is interested, I will post up photos and further information
John Ellerton

[Steve L]

Hi John,

Yes, I for one would definitely appreciate seeing photos and any other bits & pieces you may have - many thanks!

Racers Edge - are you still on the board and do you still have the car? It would be nice to know if we are going to see it out again.

[ukpilot]

sold the car late sixties....later I will get the photos together

[Sharman]

I remember Jim Boothby with a white "D" type in the next paddock stall to us at Goodwood in the 60's. Can't remember the details but no doubt somebidy else will.

[ukpilot]

I bought the car from Dennis Kitchenor and Diana Russell of Derby Road Garage in Northants. It was a cow to keep running and would misfire after about three laps. The worst problem was preselector gearbox slip, just when power was needed most. At best, it could keep up with a 250F, but five laps was rather a lot to ask of it.

I note the exhaust has been modified..I used to get serious burns on my right elbow. I also got cooked once when the oil line gave way.

Raced it at Silverstone, VSCC and then took up a safe sport (air racing).

The pictures show me in the car prior to a Mike Hawthorne Trophy and the second is the tow rig... 1925 DM Delage.

[Paul Parker]

Without checking I too was going to mention James Boothby racing a D type and possibly selling the second HWM 1 during the early to mid 1960s. Am I right?

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by Racers Edge
Bugatti T-51 #51126 is still in England and with the same owner for the past 20 years.

I do understand that Charles Dean also claims 51126 that his father built in the 1980's using a NOS Bugatti frame bought from Jack Richards (now dead) that had no official ID on it...

Why Dean claimed that number is still a mystery?

I heard there was a problem created when a 'renowned Bugatti specialist/author' handed out a random chassis number to one of his chums at some time in the past.

Continuous ownership for 20 years on a car that is around 80 years old isn't any guarantee.

[jo-briggs]

Bloody hell! I'm going to have to buy a new anorak!

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by Paul Parker
Without checking I too was going to mention James Boothby racing a D type and possibly selling the second HWM 1 during the early to mid 1960s. Am I right?

That would be Fred Boothby's father, I know he had some Jaguars - Fred has raced a Lotus 20 & MGB anongst others in historic races.

Fred has also had a few interesting cars - a pair of lotus 17s, some (possibly 2) Chevron (that he managed to wipe out the works Porsche team with 2 years in a row at the Nurbrugring) and other cars - but none quite as exotic as his Father's.

[Dutchy]

I wonder if that's the same Fred Boothby that my Father bought an ES2 Norton from back in the late 1970s - FB was a captain in the REME at the time.

[David McKinney]

Sounds like him
In a closer link to the subject in hand, he also raced the F2 Cromard (more or less a contemporary of the CDL) in historic events a few years ago

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by Dutchy
I wonder if that's the same Fred Boothby that my Father bought an ES2 Norton from back in the late 1970s - FB was a captain in the REME at the time.

Most likely he was a Military Policeman serving in Germany (along with Bob Birrell & Peter Everingham) when I first met him around 20 years ago.

[Dutchy]

You are right , he was an MP - not REME.

[BubblesBarker]

You are right , he was an MP - not REME.

Apologies for thread resurrection - Fred Boothby was RMP, Hamish McNinch was REME and Bob Birrell and Peter Everingham were both Royal Corps of Transport (RCT).

 

I should know - Fred and Hamish built my MGB way back in 1985!