50 replies to this topic

[bill moffat]

Just two passing thoughts as I bloodied my fingers changing sprockets (in the midst of a hailstorm) on my sons' Pro-kart last weekend :

1) why are they sitting in the warmth of the car listening to music whilst I do their dirty work ?

and...2) who was the first mainstream F1 driver to have used a career in karting as a springboard to his single seater/F1 career?.

The first question is probably only one that only I can answer (and perhaps John Button had similar experiences with Jenson). Question 2 is open to you lot....

[BRG]

Well, off the top of my head, I reckon we have certainly got to go back to Emerson Fittipaldi, if not earlier.


Edit - in fact, I realise that Ronnie Peterson was a Swedish kart champion and predated Emmo in F1 by a month or so.

[David Beard]

Roger Keele?

[conjohn]

Originally posted by BRG
Edit - in fact, I realise that Ronnie Peterson was a Swedish kart champion and predated Emmo in F1 by a month or so.

Even a vice-world champion - beaten by a girl... Suzy Raganelli

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by David Beard
Roger Keele?

One of the first karters to graduate to grown-up racing, certainly
Bit I wouldn't class him as a "mainstream F1 driver"

[David Beard]

Originally posted by David McKinney

One of the first karters to graduate to grown-up racing, certainly
Bit I wouldn't class him as a "mainstream F1 driver"

Dr. Moffat said single seater/F1

[David McKinney]

Yes, but I think you'll find the full sentence was "who was the first mainstream F1 driver to have used a career in karting as a springboard to his single seater/F1 career?"

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by bill moffat
Just two passing thoughts as I bloodied my fingers changing sprockets (in the midst of a hailstorm) on my sons' Pro-kart last weekend :

1) why are they sitting in the warmth of the car listening to music whilst I do their dirty work ?

Congratulations, he's halfway to his superlicense

[BRG]

Now then, boys, this is all displacement activity to cover up the fact that we don't know the answer.

So, any advance on Ronnie Peterson?

[David Beard]

Originally posted by David McKinney
Yes, but I think you'll find the full sentence was "who was the first mainstream F1 driver to have used a career in karting as a springboard to his single seater/F1 career?"

OK, OK, you win David. :
And at the moment I can't think of an earlier proper candidate than Ronnie.

[bill moffat]

I'm not at home to look this up, but didn't Johnny Servoz-Gavin start out in karts ?

[ian senior]

Digressing somewhat - who was the last F1 Driver who DIDN'T start in karts? And have there been any other stock car graduates apart from Derek Warwick?

[BRG]

AFAIK, Damon Hill is the last non-karter to reach F1 - coming from bikes, of course.

As for short-track exponents, Martin Brundle started in grass-track racing (and may not have done karts at all, or not seriously).

[theunions]

Originally posted by ian senior
And have there been any other stock car graduates apart from Derek Warwick?

Derek Daly did jalopies in Ireland.

And if you want to count one-offs, Bobby Unser began by racing stocks at Speedway Park in Albuquerque.

[bill moffat]

Originally posted by bill moffat
I'm not at home to look this up, but didn't Johnny Servoz-Gavin start out in karts ?

..to answer my own question..no he didn't, but his initial career was quite unusual.

J S-G went to the racing school at Magny Cours in 1963 but was considered, ahem, a little wild. Undeterred he co-drove in the '64 Monte and Alpine rallies before graduating to circuits with an old Volvo. After that things became a bit more conventional with a Ford Jeunesse Lotus 7, then F3 etc.

Which leaves us in the quest for a kart-baptised F1 driver who was competing in Grands Prix prior to May 10th 1970. I think that there is one atleast...

[ensign14]

Originally posted by ian senior
And have there been any other stock car graduates apart from Derek Warwick?

Mario Andretti.

[BRG]

Originally posted by bill moffat
Which leaves us in the quest for a kart-baptised F1 driver who was competing in Grands Prix prior to May 10th 1970. I think that there is one at least...

Are you going to take a punt at that one then, Bill?

I wondered about Cevert but it seems quite difficult to find out about a driver's very early careers back in the 1960s - no-one seems to have been much bothered about anything below F3. When did karting start as a serious junior racing formula anyway?

[provapr]

This is a great teaser! I have been racking my brains for three days on this...

Ronnie P drove for Tecno in karts as well as F3. If I remember correctly, Alan Henry's biography of him has quite a bit on these formative years.

Before 'Super Swede', Tecno's star driver was a guy called Sala, who won a couple of karting world championships in the sixties. However, he did not bother the F1 scorers, as it were.

I have pictures somewhere of Graham Hill racing a kart (gearbox - not 100cc which I think is what we are talking about here) at Brands in the mid-sixties but obviously the question is about a driver who utilised karting on the way up. GH was there and doing it by then.

I will continue to research - I don't think the answer is a British driver - we weren't much of a karting force until the likes of Mickey Allen and Terry Fullerton came along. God-like genius that he was, Fullerton didn't get to share the hallowed ground of F1 with his great rival, Ayrton Senna da Silva.

Great question though.

Off topic, but the only time the karting world champs were run in UK was at Rye House in '74. The final included a couple of guys called Andrea de Cesaris and Ricardo Patrese.

[David Beard]

Originally posted by provapr


I have pictures somewhere of Graham Hill racing a kart (gearbox - not 100cc which I think is what we are talking about here) at Brands in the mid-sixties but obviously the question is about a driver who utilised karting on the way up. GH was there and doing it by then.

I.

In his later karting years, Nigel Mansell raced 210 National (Villiers gearbox karts)

The only ex karting F1 driver to have raced gearbox karts?

(Excluding the likes of Stirling Moss and Graham Hill who just played with karts having already started F1)

[provapr]

Indeed he did David.

With regard to other gearbox F1 drivers, I'm sure Trulli did 125s for a time, as a works Tonykart driver. Got a feeling Magnussen may have as well. These are only semi-educated guesses, though.

While researching, I've just found the full starting grid line-up for the 1967 World Champs by the way, from Karting magazine, Dec 1967. Makes for fascinating reading re; tactics of the national teams. Team orders it seems were even more prevalent then!!

Just wish I could scan it in for you.

Other names I can see on there are;

'Nilsson - Sweden'. I wonder if this is Gunnar...

'Beretta - Monaco'. I know Olivier, ex F1, was Monagesque. I wonder if this is his father or other relation.

'Heyer - Germany.' Hans Heyer???

Will post the lot if anyone is as sad as me and would be interested....

[bill moffat]

Originally posted by provapr
Indeed he did David.

With regard to other gearbox F1 drivers, I'm sure Trulli did 125s for a time, as a works Tonykart driver. Got a feeling Magnussen may have as well. These are only semi-educated guesses, though.

...

Trulli was karting's World 100 Champion in 1991 and World 125 Champion in 1994 (as well as European Super A champ in the same year). He is still involved in the development and design of the ultra-successful Trulli kart.

Friday afternoon trivia time..Taffy Von Trips may be considered the father of European karting and,arguably, instrumental in the Schumacher phenomenon. Back in 1960 he imported a couple of American karts as hand luggage(?) and developed a track near Kerpen to race them. Along with the journalist Guenter Isenbuegel they promoted the sport before Taffy moved on to developing his FJ car.

Moving swiftly back to the pre-Peterson kart graduate, well I have one driver in mind but will check my references when I get home before making a complete plonker of myself...

[Cirrus]

'Nilsson - Sweden'. I wonder if this is Gunnar...

No, I think his Christian name was Tomas

'Heyer - Germany.' Hans Heyer???

Yes - he was a top Karter for several years before moving to cars.

As for Beretta, I don't know. Does anyone else?

[bill moffat]

HH arrived 7 years too late at Hockenheim to threaten Peterson's current TNF title as first F1 kart graduate.

Whether Heyer should be considered an F1 driver is debatable..he failed to qualify for the 1977 German GP. However, come flag fall, his ATS stealthily made its way out of the pitlane and joined the back of the field as an unofficial 25th starter..how times have changed !

[Maldwyn]

Originally posted by provapr
Off topic, but the only time the karting world champs were run in UK was at Rye House in '74. The final included a couple of guys called Andrea de Cesaris and Ricardo Patrese.

The 1974 championship was held at Estoril and won by Riccardo Patrese. There's no mention of de Cesaris in the final results.

[D-Type]

Originally posted by Maldwyn



The 1974 championship was held at Estoril and won by Riccardo Patrese. There's no mention of de Cesaris in the final results.

Perhaps he crashed out?;)

[provapr]

Got my dates, wrong; apologies. Rye House must have been 73 in that case but will go and check.

[Paolo]

Originally posted by bill moffat
Just two passing thoughts as I bloodied my fingers changing sprockets (in the midst of a hailstorm) on my sons' Pro-kart last weekend :

1) why are they sitting in the warmth of the car listening to music whilst I do their dirty work ?

Of course you TEACHED them how to change sprockets, did you ?

[BRG]

I am a bit surprised that TNF hasn't managed anything more exact than my famously inexact "off the top of my head" guestimate that it might be Ronnie Peterson. Surely someone knows more about this than me? 'Cos we're in trouble if we are relying on the BRG back-of-an-envelope version of history!

[bill moffat]

Originally posted by BRG
Are you going to take a punt at that one then, Bill?

?

..nothing more annoying than some smart-arse starting a thread with the covert suggestion that he or she possesses some pearl of wisdom that will remain elusive to others ...

I initially thought Peterson but then took a punt at Servoz-Gavin (wrong). I then maintained a dignified silence whilst I ruminated over Silvio Moser (he has a kart tournament named after him). However Silvio started out in the early 60's driving an XK120 which, I think you will agree, is a vehicle far removed from a kart. So the hunt goes on...

Paolo..my sons belong to the new breed of motor sporting heroes who would not consider dirtying their hands in pursuit of their given sport. To them a "socket set" is probably an article of ladies' underwear and a "sprocket" a small dog. Number 1 mechanic (me) does the work, thay just pose and drive...

[m.tanney]

  This would be a much easier question to answer if there was a decent book on the history of karting - or any book on the history of karting. It's the sort of thing you would think would have been written by now. Given the popularity of the sport, I'm sure that a book like that would sell well - you know, for a motorsport book.

[Frank S]

Dan the Kart Man?

First paragraph of the Bossier Grand Prix-Pipeline 200 race report in Sports Car Graphic, July 1962:

NASSAU WAS EXCITING, Daytona
was impossible, Sebring is better
left out of this, but the United States
Auto Club's first Formula Libre race
of the season put Dan Gurney right
square on the spot. To top this
performance, he may have to return
to karts.

300+ K article page

Access to the entire race report

[David McKinney]

Just had a thought
He mightn't have been the first F1 driver to have started in karts, but I bet Alan Jones was racing karts before most of the other candidates - 1961?

[David McKinney]

Correction - I've just found Jones winning a race in July 1960

[Magee]

Go-karting got going in these parts in 1961. Many local drivers started on go-karts when the weather allowed it.
Question: Do snowmobiles count too? The Villeneuve family was very familiar with snowmobiles before going on to F1.

Here's a news piece about the opening of the local go-kart track on Canada's West Coast. Interesting fact herein that King Hussein of Jordan was an avid go-karter.

A new home
Westwood to host go-karts
The Vancouver Province, June 9, 1961


Motor racing's orphans - the buzz-saw engined Go-Karts have found a new home in the lower mainland.
Sunday, they'll christen a new, four-tenths of a mile paved-road racing track at the popular Westwood Sports Car circuit near Port Coquitlam.
More than 90 entries from Seattle, Bellingham, and the lower mainland will contest 18 races on the spanking new circuit beginning at 1:00 p.m.
And one of the reasons they now have their own racing circuit is those above-mentioned buzz-saw engines, no pun intended.
Go-karts are powered with either one or two motors of the type used to run lawn-mowers or chainsaws, but considerably "hopped-up."
The "hopping-up" process while producing more power and speed also pushes up exhaust noises to the torture level. The neighbors in the built-up area, invariably, protested when the Karters attempted to race in supermarket parking lots and similar places.
So three local Karting clubs got together, affiliated with the Sports Car Club of B.C. which operated the non-profit Westwood complex, and sold bonds.
Five-thousand dollars later, their new home is ready…and there are no nearby neighbors.
With banked corners, one that leans the "wrong" way, 90-degree turns and a 20-foot wide straightaway, the new course will give the Karters a real driving test.
Worth from $150 for the minimum… obtainable, the karts run six-inch wheels and are but one inch off the ground. Most drivers out-weigh their machines.
More than 100 members belong to the new Westwood Karting Association, the newest group in a sport that has spread around the world. Even King Hussein of Jordan and his new bride race in a Royal Karting Club.
It's a family sport, with the stress on safety, even though the biggest machines are capable of 60 m.p.h. for short bursts. Drivers wear crash helmets and heavy clothing while racing.

[BRG]

Interesting stuff. Of course, in the very early days of karting, many or maybe most competitors had probably started out in some other form of motorsport and tried karts as a novel and economic new formula. What we are looking for is someone who started in karts (probably as a teenager) and then moved inexorably up to F1.

It has to have been in the mid 1960s, I reckon - my brief period of karting involvement was from about 1967-71 and by then, in the UK at least, there was already a well-developed process of cadets and juniors moving up through the kart classes and thence into cars. So I suspect that if the answer ISN'T Ronnie, it is going to be someone very close to him chronologically. Perhaps we have to look at the CVs of all F1 graduates in the latter half of the 1960s - how many candidates might that cover?

[AlesiUK]

Originally posted by ian senior
Digressing somewhat - who was the last F1 Driver who DIDN'T start in karts? And have there been any other stock car graduates apart from Derek Warwick?

Eddie Irvine? i dont think he did karts at any kind of level?

Just two passing thoughts as I bloodied my fingers changing sprockets (in the midst of a hailstorm) on my sons' Pro-kart last weekend :

1) why are they sitting in the warmth of the car listening to music whilst I do their dirty work ?

.....

thats what dads are for! As for sitting in the car listening to music,pffft,he should be trackside watching the other races going on,sitting having a laugh and joke with tje same drivers he just barged out of the 5mins ago.....doubt ud see that nowdays at an f1 race..

(and perhaps John Button had similar experiences with Jenson).

John was more likely to be found machining out innlet or exhaust valves to dimensions that shall we say were somewhat incompatable with the regulations ;)

[David Beard]

Originally posted by AlesiUK
John was more likely to be found machining out innlet or exhaust valves to dimensions that shall we say were somewhat incompatable with the regulations ;)

On a 2 stroke?

[AlesiUK]

Originally posted by David Beard


On a 2 stroke?

yes. 60cc comer engine.

[David Beard]

Originally posted by AlesiUK



yes. 60cc comer engine.

I stand corrected then, if that is a 4 stroke. I sort of assumed that we were talking of classes upward of Cadet. The class didn't exist when I followed karting closely.

Hasn't it been said that Button was the first significant driver to emerge from the Cadet class after its establishment?

[Stefan Ornerdal]

World Championship 1965, Rome, september 1965
1. Guido Sala, Italy
2. Werner Ihle, Germany
3. Toine Hezemans, Netherlands
4. Graf, Germany
5. Day, Great Britain
--
14. Ronnie Peterson, Sweden
etc

There was a World Championship race 1964, but I have not found any results.

Ronnie Peterson was driving karts in Sweden 1963, maybe earlier.


Stefan

[Roland Wasscher]

Alain Prost became WC in Oldenzaal, The Netherlands in 1972 or 73 .

[David Beard]

In this month's Motor Sport magazine, Nigel Roebuck quotes Jo Ramirez. The text could be interpreted that he made friends with Ricardo Rodriguez when they were both karting in Mexico in the very early 60s...

[bill moffat]

I thought the Rodriguez brothers started their careers on motorbikes before graduating (in their early teens !) to an XK120.

The big Jag seems to have featured in many drivers' early careers..providing quite a contrast to the "pointability" of a Kart. If you have ever driven a genuine XK120 at speed (not one of those questionable disc braked/lsd'd evolutions) you will know that terms such as adhesion and retardation apply only loosely..I'm still smiling.

[AlesiUK]

Originally posted by David Beard


I stand corrected then, if that is a 4 stroke. I sort of assumed that we were talking of classes upward of Cadet. The class didn't exist when I followed karting closely.

Hasn't it been said that Button was the first significant driver to emerge from the Cadet class after its establishment?

the 60cc was 2 stroke as well im pretty sure(not 100% sure,when ur 10yrs old u just worry about how fast it goes...)

As far as i know this was the only level he was either "bending the rules" or "blatantly cheating" depending on your view


As for first to emerge from Cadets,i guess in f1 terms yes,Dan wheldon actually was a year or two before jenson in Cadets as champion,but i guess got kinda lost after that for a while. Couple of years later we had Anthony and Jenson graduate together thru the classes from cadets in international A and onwards

[bill moffat]

"Nanni" Galli started out in karts before doing wonders for Alfa Romeo. He was racing F2 as early as 1967 but made his name alongside Cevert @ Tecno in 1969, whilst keeping a sportscar career going also. He DNS'd a McLaren at Monza in September 1970..a few months after Ronald at Monaco.

Well it was a good try, he's a good example of an ex-karter who achieved prominence at a reasonable motor-sporting level prior to Ronnie.

[bill moffat]

..and as an aside which F2 and one-off F1 driver was a powerboat champion before coming ashore ?

[David McKinney]

John Nicholson?
(Don't know if he was a powerboatd champion, but he did race them]

[bill moffat]

Originally posted by David McKinney
John Nicholson?
(Don't know if he was a powerboatd champion, but he did race them]

Not quite.

The gentleman in question has a motor sport career that spans 6 decades ! He has experience racing an NSU and also has the distinction of being one of the Grand Prix "outsiders"in the late 1960's. In his one-off GP he comprehensively out-qualified his experienced team mates. Add in many Le Mans sorties and a win in a major European championship and it can only be one man..and he is STILL racing !

So who is he and what type of NSU did he race ?

[bill moffat]

..and to help you further this driver's father-in-law was an F2 constructor who went on to develop some of the most powerful F1 engines of all time....

[david_martin]

Sounds like Dieter Quester to me...