23 replies to this topic

[Reyna]

I'm working on a complet list of the 1948-1960 F2 cars :

There was a lot of Sports cars, F3 and others the first years, so it's very difficult to isolate the really Formula B/2 cars.
At the moment i have the following F2 makers:

(*) Those projects or cars that never raced.

Abarth*(I. 1950)
AFM (D. 1949-50)
Alta (GB. 1951)
Aston-Butterworth (GB. 1952)
Balsa (F. 1952, 1957-60)
Behra-Porsche (F. 1959)
Binner (DDR. 1953)
BLG (SWE. 1950)
Cisitalia (I. 1948)
Clairmonte* (GB. 1952)
Connaught (GB. 1950)
Cooper (GB. 1952....)
DAMW (D. 1951)
D.B. (F. 1948)
De Tomaso* (I. 1960)
Eigenbau (D. 1948)
Emeryson (GB. 1953, 1960)
EMW (D. 1952-53, 1957-60)
ERA (GB. 1952)
Ferrari (I. 1948....)
Frazer-Nash (GB. 1952-53)
Fry (GB. 1958)
GJ (?. 1951)
Gordini (F. 1948-1953)
Greifzu (D. 1952)
HAR (GB. 1952)
Heck (D. 1951)
Holbein (D. 1948-50)
HRG (GB. 1951-52)
Hume-Cooper (GB. 1960)
HWM (GB. 1949-53)
IFA (D. 1952)
Jicey (F. 1948)
Kieft* (GB. 1952)
Klenk V.M. (D. ??)
Klodwig (D. 1953)
Krakau (D. 1951-53)
Laystall (GB. 1960)
Legros??
Lister (GB. 1957)
Lotus (GB. 1957....)
Maserati (I. 1948-53)
Monaci (I. 19529
Monnier (B. 1950, 1953)
Monopol (D. 1948)
MSM-Lancia (D. 1953)
Nardi* (I. 1952)
OBM (GB. 1950)
Orley (D. 1950)
Osca (I. 1953, 1957)
Porsche (D. 1957....)
RBS* (F. 1957)
Reif (D. 1952?)
R.G. (D. 1949)
Rover Special* (GB. 1948)
RRA (GB. 1951?)
Simca Speciale (F. 1949-50)
Smith (GB. 1957)
Spitzmüller (D. 1949)
Stanguellini (I. 1949)
SVA* (I. 1950)
Tojeiro (GB. 1958)
Turner (GB. 19539
Veritas (D. 1948-53)
WAM (D. 19539
Werkmeister (DDR. 1953)
Willment (GB. 1957)
Wojciechowski* (DDR. 1953)





Could anyone help me ???

Many thanks,
Rafa

[D-Type]

Originally posted by Reyna
I'm working on a complet list of the 1948-1960 F2 cars :

There was a lot of Sports cars, F3 and others the first years, so it's very difficult to isolate the really Formula B/2 cars.
~

Rafa,
Why do you feel that sports cars should be excluded? For example, there is very little difference between a Porsche RSK and the central seat version. How far does a 'sports car' have to be stripped to count as a racing car? And in the early days some of the cars were designed as dual purpose. Would you discount an offset HWM when it ran with mudguards and allow it when it didn't.
Similarly some cars were dual F2/F3. Take a 1000cc Cooper-JAP. It was under 2 litres and accepted by the organisers as a Formula 2 entry. But the chassis was identical to the Formula 3 car and the same car could run in F3 with the engine converted to a 'sloper'
I see a total minrfield ahead of you if you try to exclude them. I think the only criterion you can apply is to include any such car that was accepted as a Formula 2 entry by the organisers, but not if it was entered in a combined race with separate classes and awards for F3 and sports cars.

You could add the Maserati-Milan (or Milan) to the list.
Shouldn't the DAMW be DDR rather than D?
Eigenbau is not a make, it means 'Special' in German, so a BMW-Eigenbau in an entry list is actually a BMW Special.

[Peter Morley]

What about the 1950 Cromard?
Or does that come under Laystall?

[uechtel]

Reyna, I am afraid you have opened very much a can of worms. It is indeed almost impossible to decide, which of the mentioned projects are actually Formula 2. For example all but one of the DAMW/IFA/EMW stable were indeed multi-purpose cars used in sports car AND Formula 2 events. Formula 2 rules were more or less a subset of the 2 litre sports cars, so it is indeed the question whether they were not indeed sports cars, that were also used in Formula 2.

But of course it is not all that easy, as for example Greifzu´s car was very much a product of the same idea, but to my knowledge NEVER used in any sports car event, but only in Formula 2! So does that make the Greifzu a Formula 2 car and the DAMW not, even if they were both of almost similar layout?

This is the reason why I finally gave in on this issue and included the sports cars as well into my stories...

What definition do you suggest for your list?

[D-Type]

I suggest including the engine type and further splitting up when a chassis used different engines.

Cooper/Alta
Cooper/Bristol
Cooper/BMW (someone replaced the Bristol engine with a BMW one)
Cooper/Climax
Cooper/JAP
Cooper/Maserati (certainly as a F1 car in 1961 probably as F2 earlier)
Cooper/Vincent (they certainly existed but did they run in F2 races?)
Cooper/MG (possibly stripped sports cars in 48-53)
Cooper/Alfa Romeo (maybe?)
Cooper/Conrero (or was that 1961?)
Lotus/Climax
Lotus/Maserati (or was that 1961?)
Stanguellini/Fiat
DB/Panhard
Frazer-Nash/Bristol

I think the abortive Kieft was later a F1 car with the 'Godiva' Climax FPE. But there may have been an earlier Bristol or Alta engined car

[Rob29]

Not sure what is to be achived here. It is important to realise that up to around 1960,it was permisable to enter a sports car in a F1 or F2 race,if it complied with the engine capacity limit. As has already been said here various half way mods with or without road legal equipment existed. If you are interested in F2 you will be interested in all the cars that took part,regardless of their origins.

[alessandro silva]

Reyna, below are the F2 cars which raced in FRANCE or ITALY and Stockholm during 1948 only. (8 races, Perpignan, Amgouleme, Vercelli, Bari, Mantova, Stockholm, Reims, Florence)). You might see that you have a long way to go.

SIMCA Gordini T15 (with 1430cc engines) c/n 7GC 8GC 9GC 10GC
SIMCA-Gordini T11 (with 1220cc or 1430cc engines) c/n 2GC, 3GC, 4GC
SIMCA-Gordini TMM 1GCS
Ferrari 166SC c/n 002C 004C 006I 008I 010I 012I 014I
Ferrari 125/166
Cisitalia D46 c/n 004 010 019 025 and others
Cisitalia D46/48 c/n 036
BMW Spl (E. Martin)
BMW Spl (A. Orley)
BMW Spl (Rovelli)
BMW Spl (Monnier)
OBM-BMW (Moore)
Météore-BMW (two Veritas BMW sports cars surreptitiously imported in France)
Jicey-BMW ch 1 and 2
DB-Citroen ch. 6, ch. 4
Cisitalia D46 with Lancia Aprilia engine (Bianchi Spl)
SIMCA Spl (JR)
SIMCA Spl (R. Martin)
SIMCA Spl (Duquesnoy)
SIMCA Monopole
Berté-GM Spl
Stanguellini Fiat 1400 c/n CS01104 and CS01105
Stanguellini Fiat 1100 c/n CS01101
Stanguellini F2 c/n
Maserati A6GCS 2001 to 2007 2009
Urania-BMW 500 s/c
Lancia Aprilia Spl (Svensson)
Alta Spl (reg MPB77)
BMW 328
Amilcar-Darl'Mat Peugeot 2L
FIAT Volpini Tinarelli
FIAT Ermini
Violet-Bernardet 500 s/c DID NOT RACE

[Reyna]

To be or not to be....

First many thanks !!!

D-Type, Uechtel, Rob 29 i'd like to do a complete list of 1948-1960 F2 cars, even sports cars or F3 with engine +500.
The only condition: cars admised on the F2 races, just another condition: to be a single seater and without lights. . The sports cars will be wellcome if were adapted to a single-seater.

I find interesting the propose to include the engines, thanks Rob29.

Alessandro , grazie tante. Your 1948 list is very impresive !!!


To begin i've done this list that you can see here:

1948-1960 F2



Rafa

[Don Capps]

Originally posted by Reyna
D-Type, Uechtel, Rob 29 i'd like to do a complete list of 1948-1960 F2 cars, even sports cars or F3 with engine +500.
The only condition: cars admised on the F2 races, just another condition: to be a single seater and without lights. . The sports cars will be wellcome if were adapted to a single-seater.

But, you seem to be missing an imprtant point: if a sports-type car ran in F2, with or without lights or whatever, it was an F2 car, period. Don't be like many others who have used highly selective vision in recording data, ignoring what was actually there because it didn't meet their arbitrary criteria.

The Black Books simply ignored or refused to include any data referring to commercial names of teams or entrants, which meant that the reality of what and how things were were recorded in a manner at odds with how things really were. Racing, especially in the period you are looking at, simply was not all that neat and tidy.

[Reyna]

The most important question for me:
Are we sure that all the cars admised in the first F2 races were under F2 regulations ???
Or perhaps the first years F2 races were like F Libre races, admising anything just to complete grid .....

Just looking photographs on this period i see many cars that can not be considered single-seater !!!

Or my point of view is wrong, and i must accept as F2 all the cars that ran in the F2 races ????


Please, help me !!!!

[David McKinney]

If other cars were admitted the races were not, by definition, F2 races

[Vitesse2]

It should be remembered that the adoption of a second International Formula in 1948 came as a bit of a surprise to most people - no manufacturers were really ready for it, so in the early years the sports cars were necessary to make up the numbers. By 1950, apart from in Germany, they had almost disappeared from grids. Then they reappeared in 1956-7, at which time there were no custom-built F2 chassis until Cooper and later Lotus got going: there were already plenty of Climax-powered sports cars about though.

[Reyna]

Originally posted by David McKinney
If other cars were admitted the races were not, by definition, F2 races

Perhaps the definition was no so clear at the beginning....
I'd like to know how much several were the first FB/2 rules.

[D-Type]

Take, for example, the 1957 Formula 2. This was for cars up to 1500cc. The rules didn't say 'open wheeled cars' So, if someone had a 1500cc Porsche, Lotus or Cooper sports car he was entitled to enter it in a Formula 2 race. To make the car faster he might remove the second seat, the lights, the self starter, etc and it would be described as a 'stripped sports car'. Then as more and more Coopers came on the scene the stripped sports cars were no longer competitive and faded from the scene. But this does not mean that, say, a Lotus Mk11 which was designed as a sports car cannot be considered a Formula 2 car as well.

As I see it, if a race was run for Formula 2 cars and 1500cc sports cars with the sports cars listed as such in the programme then they were not Formula 2 cars. If, on the other hand, a sports car was entered in a Formula 2 race then for the duration of that race it became a Formula 2 car.

To carry this to an extreme, the Porsche RS run by de Beaufort in the 1958 and 1959 Dutch Grands Prix was on those occasions a Formula 1 car. When he ran the same car in the Formula 2 class of the 1957 and 1958 German Grands Prix it was on those occasions a Formula 2 car. And when he ran the same car at Le Mans, it was on those occasions a sports car.

[uechtel]

Originally posted by Reyna
D-Type, Uechtel, Rob 29[/B] i'd like to do a complete list of 1948-1960 F2 cars, even sports cars or F3 with engine +500.
The only condition: cars admised on the F2 races, just another condition: to be a single seater and without lights. . The sports cars will be wellcome if were adapted to a single-seater.

Puh! So this will be almost impossible, at least for me to sort that out. Let me give some examples:

The DAMW/EMW was a full two seater, but (at least for Formula 2) the fuel tank was placed alongside the driver:



Also look at the following:



One seat only so guess it´s a race car?

No way! It´s a true sports car:



But it also appeared in this almost single-seater look, but still in sports car races:




Now what about cars with removable lights?

Or another solution, that was even more common in Germany, with the headlights installed BEHIND the radiator grill, clearly to be seen at the Krakau at Monza in 1950:




And again a picture of the DAMW:



In front a car in sports car trim followed by the Formula 2 configuration. With the bodyshells interchangeable I think the cars swopped configurations many times. So an adaption of a sports car for Formula 2 or an adaption of a Formula 2 car for sports car events?

Or if you have not yet enough even the first Veritas Meteor, never anything else than a true single seater, but yet with headlights (for civil use?)...



...which soon have completely disappeared again!



So which of those cars should be included into your list?



But I don´t want to disillusion you completely so I think it´s the best I work up your list, with my additions and comments for 1948 to 1954 and let you decide by yourself:

AFM (D. 1949-50)
First "full" Formula 2 car built in 1949, last one in 1952. Cars in use between 1949 and 1954.
Car/engine combinations:
AFM-BMW 1949-52 / 1949-54 (production years / years in use in Formula 2)
AFM-Küchen 1950 / 1950-52
AFM-Bristol 1953 / 1953

Balsa (F. 1952, 1957-60)
Balsa-BMW 1950-53 / 1950-53

Binner (DDR. 1953)
Binner-BMW 1953 / 1953-54: Offset cockpit, so probably dual-purpose car, but to my knowledge only used in Formula 2 events (respective successing regulations in 1954)

DAMW (D. 1951)
DAMW (1951) / IFA (1952) / EMW (1952-1955) / AWE (1956-), also known as "Rennkollektiv" or "Kollektivwagen", DDR
Cars produced around 1951/52 ("R1" model) were dual purpose cars (see above), in use until 1954, sometimes with streamline or full enveloping sports car bodywork
At the end of 1953 (practise at Bernau) appeared the "R2", the only real monoposto for Formula 2 use only:



Raced only two times in 1954 (succeeding Formula 2) at Dresden and the Sachsenring

Eigenbau (D. 1948)
That word means nothing else than "Special", no make for itself, so should be scratched from the list

EMW (D. 1952-53, 1957-60)
see DAMW...
DDR!

Greifzu (D. 1952)
Greifzu-BMW 1950 / 1950-54: Theoretically dual purpose, but only used in Formula 2. Car completely rebuilt after crash in 1950
DDR!

Heck (D. 1951)
again no make of its own, "Heck" means "rear[-engined]". See Klodwig
DDR!

Holbein (D. 1948-50)
Holbein-BMW 1948-(49) / 1948-1953
First Formula 2 car built in 1948. A second car neared its completion in 1949, but seemingly remained unraced. A Veritas-like sports car had been built already in 1947, which was used briefly in a couple of Formula 2 events in 1949

IFA (D. 1952)
see DAMW
DDR!

Jicey (F. 1948)
Jicey-BMW 1948 / 1948-1954: Two cars built

Klenk V.M. (D. ??)
Klenk-(Veritas)-Meteor 1952-54 / 1953-54: Klenk ordered open-wheel bodywork for the former Kling-streamliner in 1952 and rewored chassis and engine in 1953 and again in 1954. Appeared in Formula 1 only in 1954.

Klodwig (D. 1953)
Klodig-BMW 1951? / 1951-53: The "Heck"-BMW.
DDR!

Krakau (D. 1951-53)
Krakau-BMW 1947 / 1950-53: dual-purpose (reportedly of East German origin), built in 1947; appeared only in sports car trim between 1947 and 1949; first Formula 2 races in 1950, after that the car turned more and more into an offset-cockpit Formula 2 racer during the years
DDR?

Legros??
Legros-Bugatti-BMW 1949?: Bugatti chassis with BMW engine and new bodywork

Monnier (B. 1950, 1953)
Monnier-BMW 1948 / 1948
Monnier-Bristol 1950? / 1950-54: Rebuilt and BMW engine replaced in 1950

Monopol (D. 1948)
Monopol-BMW 1948 / 1948-49: rear engined car built by Polensky; appeared briefly with streamliner bodywork in 1949

MSM-Lancia (D. 1953)

OBM (GB. 1950)
OBM-BMW: 1948? / 1948-50: Offset dual-purpose car

Orley (D. 1950)
Orley-/ Veritas-BMW 1949 / 1949-53: The first Veritas single seater (see picture above), in 1948 fitted with 2.3 litre Bugatti engine as stop gap. Sold to Orley and reworked into a BMW-engined Formula 2 car by Balsa

Reif (D. 1952?)
Reif-BMW 1949 / 1949-50: Dual purpose car from East Germany with first Formula 2 appearance at the end of 1949
Reif-Meteor 1951 / 1951-52: BMW engine replaced by a Veritas Meteor engine; car "officially" known as "BMW-Meteor" or even simply "Veritas-Meteor".
DDR!

R.G. (D. 1949)
R.G.-BMW 1952? / 1952-54: BMW-engined special of French (!) origin, built by Roger Gerbout
F!

Spitzmüller (D. 1949)
Spitzmüller-BMW 1949 / 1949 Offset car (dual purpose?). Probably rebuilt from Mall´s streamliner

Veritas (D. 1948-53)
Veritas RS-BMW 1947-51 / 1948-54: Full streamlined sports car, but very frequently used in Formula 2 between 1948 and 1954. Even works entries in 1948
Veritas Meteor 1949-50 / 1949-54: Single seater Formula 2 car, some with streamliner bodywork
Veritas-Nürburgring Meteor / RS 1952-53 / 1952-53: Loof moved to the Nürburgring in 1951 and revived the Veritas company, building a small number of monoposto Formula 2 and RS-like sports cars, all of them with Meteor engines, which were used in Formula 2 in 1952 and 1953.

WAM (D. 19539
WAM-BMW 1941 / 1951: One of the Touring-built BMW 328 roadsters from 1941 re-badged. I have only a single Formula 2 appearance (Avus in 1951), so rather a full-time sports car

Werkmeister (DDR. 1953)
Werkmeister-BMW 1953 / 1953: Veritas-like sports car. With the end of the 2 litre class after 1952 there was nothing left than to enter it in Formula 2 events

Wojciechowski* (DDR. 1953)
H.Weber-BMW? 1949? / (1949-54) Car is supposed to have been a pure monoposto built by Helmut Weber around 1949. A couple of unconfirmed appearances in 1949/50. Driven by Wojciechowski in a couple of events in 1953, but (almost) destroyed in a huge crash. Reportedly rebuilt again, but no confirmed participation in 1954

Also I have the following additions to your list:

Martin-BMW (F) 1948 / 1948: Offset (single seater?) of Eugene Martin

Duval-BMW (F) 1949? / 1949-53

RBS-Opel (F) 1948 / 1948-50

EBS- (Brütsch-) Küchen (1949) Intended to accept one of the new Küchen engines, but appeared only with 2.3 litre s/c Bugatti installed, Schauinsland 1949. So rather a Formula 2 project only

Ulmen-Veritas-BMW 1950-51 / 1950-53: Ulmen had his Veritas RS streamliner converted first into a pure monoposto in 1950 and into a two seater dual purpose car in 1951. Raced in Formula 2 and sports car trim until bad crash in 1952, after which it was rebuilt more or less as offset single seater (sports car class had run out) for 1953

Todd-BMW (F/USA) 1948 / 1948: Orley´s first (dual purpose) car

Baum-BMW (DDR) 1948 / 1949-54: Car was celebrated as first Formula 2 car of the GDR, but yet with "alibi" passenger seat!

Straubel-BMW (DDR) 1950? / 1950-54: Dual purpose car

Krause/Reif-BMW (DDR) 1950 / 1950-53: Built by Krause with assistance from Reif. In spite of dual purpose-layout only used in Formula 2

Awtowelo-BMW "Intertyp"(DDR) 1949 / 1952: Dual purpose car built by the still Soviet-owned BMW factory at Eisenach in 1949. Appeared briefly in Formula 2 events in 1952, now re-badged EMW
Awtowelo-BMW "340/1" (DDR) 1949 / 1948-52: Pontoon shaped sports car, which was nevertheless entered in the Formula 2 class at the Sachsenring in 1949. Apperaed again in 1952, now rebadged "EMW"

Neumaier-BMW (D) 194? / 1948: Mall´s pontoon-shaped car, in which he took part in Formula 2 events in 1948

BMW 328 (D) 193? / 1949-50: Stripped BMW 328 in original configuration were used among others by Pilette and Gommann in 1949/50

Chard´homme-BMW (F) 1950? / 1950-53
Delebarre-BMW (F) 1950? / 1950-54: two Barchetta-bodied BMW specials which appeared occaisonally in Formula 2 events

ARo-Veritas-Alfa Romeo (DDR) 1950 / 1951-53: Veritas RS with Alfa Romeo engine converted by Rosenhammer. Rechristened "DRS-Veritas" by Fitzau in 1952. After his defection to West-Germany the car appeared in Formula 2 as ARo-Veritas again, now driven by Melkus.

And now a list of still very much unknown cars appearing in Formula 2 events:

Kubelka-BMW (DDR) 1951
Mitteldeutsches Autohaus-BMW (DDR) 1952
Hansen (CH?) 1948
Gerbel-BMW (D) 1948-53
LMC-BMW (GB) 1950-52
Fitzau-BMW (DDR) 1950
Vianden (D) 1951
Veryser (DDR) 1952
Sandgathe (D) 1953
Kollektiv Versicherung-BMW (DDR) 1952-54

[uechtel]

Originally posted by David McKinney
If other cars were admitted the races were not, by definition, F2 races

So has the 1959 US GP not been a Formula 1 race?

[David McKinney]

Neither of those cars, AFAIK, had engines larger than 2500cc

[Reyna]

Uechtel , many thanks for the update !!!!!

I must to get under way and to know what i want to do with this F2 list.....

Perhaps to include all the cars that ran at any F2 event ????



I'd like to do the same i've done with the 1.964-1.984 makers:

F2 1.964-1.984

This F2 period is mostly very much clear !!!



Rafa

[uechtel]

Originally posted by David McKinney
Neither of those cars, AFAIK, had engines larger than 2500cc

Neither of them had, but nevertheless they are not generally regarded as Formula 1 cars and I thought "other cars" would refer to cars built for some other formula / series, that happened to fit into the current Formula 1 by chance. So sorry for the misunderstanding.

In this category I would summarize cars like Schell´s Cooper (Monaco 1950), any two-seater Veritas or Porsche sports car (de Beaufort / late fifties) or even the "old" 1965-spec Formula 1 cars used in 1966.

Personally I think the races were Formula 1, but some of the cars were not.

Also a problem in this direction has been the classification of the the 1500 4-cylinder South African racers of the early sixties to me. As I understand the series was open for 4-cylinders only, which was a restriction to the current Fomrula 1 rules, so is it correct to regard the events as "Formula 1"?

[Rob29]

Originally posted by Reyna
Uechtel , many thanks for the update !!!!!





I'd like to do the same i've done with the 1.964-1.984 makers:

F2 1.964-1.984

This F2 period is mostly very much clear !!!



Rafa

Not entirely clear as I have identified at least one Alexis that seems to be an F3 car,possibly with the air ristrictor removed?

[Reyna]

Originally posted by Rob29
Not entirely clear as I have identified at least one Alexis that seems to be an F3 car,possibly with the air ristrictor removed?

Chris Meek ran wiyh an Alexis Mk6 F3 some F2 races.



Rafa

[Reyna]

Does anyone know the first Formula B/2 rules ????

I think the first step is to know this rules, so we can say this one was a really F2 or this another not...

Perhaps i'm wrong, but i still believe that the F2 races organizators (the first years) was'nt too much stricts with the entries !!!!

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Reyna
Does anyone know the first Formula B/2 rules ????

I think the first step is to know this rules, so we can say this one was a really F2 or this another not...

Perhaps i'm wrong, but i still believe that the F2 races organizators (the first years) was'nt too much stricts with the entries !!!!

I think the details are in John Eason Gibson's book "Motor Racing 1947". See the discussions here:

http://forums.atlasf...&threadid=31437

and here

http://forums.atlasf...&threadid=56427

for some more perspectives.

[uechtel]

http://user.tninet.s...1w/F2_Index.htm

I don´t think there was much more than that capacity limit.

So I think the organizers could not have been too much more strict about the rules even if they had wanted to.

I go along with D-Type, Vitesse and David to state, that technically every car below two litres (or half a litre if supercharged) was a Formula 2 car, no matter how many passenger seats, whether it had lights, mudguards etc., or whether it had originally built for some other Formula.

A totally different matter have been Formula Libre races. In order to boost up the grid many races were open to everything, with a separate classification for the participating Formula 2 cars. In Germany this ended in 1949 with Brütsch´s huge Maserati competing as single entrant in the open class against a whole field of Formula 2 cars. But this did not happen, because the orgainzers turned a blind eye on the nonconformity of his car to Formula 2 rules, but the races were officially announced as combined events for Formula 2 and the open class.

So how shall we deal with that?

To me a race officially containing at least a Formula 2 class always belongs to Formula 2 with a separate Formula 2 winner. The presence of cars from other categories competing for a separate classification - whether faster or not - does not matter. This is a difference to events, in which Formula 2 cars were allowed in, but having to run against the others for overall victory only.