26 replies to this topic

[Christiaan]

Some time last year my friend bought a Mazda 626 Cronos with a 3L V6 Engine. I don't know if this car is available to the left hand drive market. Anyway, this car has an engine beyond anything I have ever driven. It is perfectly balanced and very very powerful. It has very low inertia as well. His car is a FWD, and I think it was a mistake to make that car a FWD coz its handling is lacking.

I have two issues. First, a while ago I posted on FWD vs RWD. Driving his Mazda I feel some steering problems which go away when you ease of the throttle. I saw on BBC TopGear that there is a new SAAB which has about 200bhp and is a FWD and handles with no problems. The presenter said that 200bhp was actually supposed to be a design limit of FWD. Can anybody provide clarity o this, on the actual mathematics involved.


Secondly this engine is unbelievable. I know that it is not a stock engine. The dyno says that its well into the 300hp range. Driving this car is absolutely thrilling, but its very difficult to get the power to the tar because the clutch keeps slipping. With the clucth pedal fully out the car will rev to about 7000rpm before you start accelating, Let go of the throttle then you get some traction at about 3000rpm and the car lunges foward. This car is about 10years old, and we creamed an M3 at the drag races. The clucth was new then, but it still did have the same problem, only not as severe. I want to know more about th isengine, apparently a detuned version is in the MR2. Does anybody know anything about this engine? Uh, and what can be done about this clutch slip problem?

[schuy]

Only a small comment about the HP figures for FWD.

A couple of years ago I read an Autocar magazine report previewing the Ford Focus RS giving out a figure of 220bhp to the front wheels as a theoretical maximum, which is the exact output the Fiat Coupe 20v Turbo provides.

It is only reasnoable to have torque steer issues with FWD cars, especially high-powered ones, but I have driven examples which amazed me and made me look at the spec sheet to make sure they really are FWD.

Namely, the 2002 Honda Accord Type-R.
It's handling was so neutral, even at speeds of up to 140kp/h in a long sustained high-angled curve that I was simply elated.

One thing that I didn't like, though, was the fact that making the Honda power-oversteer was extremely hard.
I was the driver for a photo-shoot for a car-magazine and we wanted to provoke the Honda for some 'action shots'.

My mind still tingles thinking of the nonsense I did to provoke the car.

It paid off, eventually.


Liran.

[dosco]

Originally posted by schuy
Only a small comment about the HP figures for FWD.

Namely, the 2002 Honda Accord Type-R.

I was the driver for a photo-shoot for a car-magazine and we wanted to provoke the Honda for some 'action shots'.

My mind still tingles thinking of the nonsense I did to provoke the car.

Had to drive like a rally-racer, eh?

Sweet.

[schuy]

Heh, yeah

Excellent driver's car the Type-R.

Actually I have a nice photo from the shoot in which we were doing around 120 kp/h and i especially liked that curve as the Vtec came in exactly at mid-turn which helped me provoke the handling a bit.

I'll post it in a bit.

Liran.

[schuy]

http://www.carsforum...ad.php?id=14254

The Honda Accord Type-R at the road to the Dead-Sea-Photographed by Anthony Katzman, "Auto-Expert" Magazine, driven by myself.

[Scoots]

The limit of 220bhp has to do with economics more than math. If the half-shafts are equal length (or the problem is solved another way, I know of one) torque steer is effectively eliminated, but if the tires break traction the car will still wander when going straight. So, wide sticky tires will put power to the ground on a FWD (not that there are no compromizes, RWD is better), it sounds to me like what your friend needs is a much stronger clutch.

You said the engine was from an MR2? A toyota engine in a Mazda?

[Greg Locock]

If only life were that easy. You can still get torque steer (that is a steering input generated by traction forces) even with equal length halfshafts.

Incidentally I assume we agree that a 'limit' of 220 bhp for FWD is really a limit based on 'normal' gearing, normal weight and normal drivers. I know of at least one FWD that has 340 bhp at the engine, in fact the owner or driver may have posted here.

[Scoots]

Greg, yeah, I knew it wasn't that simple, but my brain failed me

[McGuire]

Originally posted by Greg Locock
If only life were that easy. You can still get torque steer (that is a steering input generated by traction forces) even with equal length halfshafts.

Incidentally I assume we agree that a 'limit' of 220 bhp for FWD is really a limit based on 'normal' gearing, normal weight and normal drivers. I know of at least one FWD that has 340 bhp at the engine, in fact the owner or driver may have posted here.

My own daily driver is a Cadillac ETC with Northstar V8 with 300 hp rating and FWD, and it is one torque-steering b**tard under the right conditions. It has also shown some other strange habits...when the tires got down to around 60% tread remaining, on wet pavement it would step sideways in roundabouts with surprisingly little throttle application. A new set of Michelins fixed that, but this tank will never be mistaken for a GT. With all its tonnage, 300 hp plus front weight bias on the extreme limit, I would say it is a pretty fair representation of the far end of the envelope for FWD packaging. That said, it suits me perfectly for my typical mode of driving (going like Hell in a straight line on the Interstate.)

We don't get the real Honda Accord R here I don't think, but I did recently drive some Acura TL, which is essentially the same platform with a 3.2 liter V6 and 265 hp. Torque steer is very apparent and its dynamics, while very nice, will never be mistaken for that of a RWD car. To me the limits of what FWD can do are somewhere around this general area. Some say these cars feel "neutral" to them, but they don't to me, not at full throttle down/corner exit. Different strokes for different folks. I think if folks want a BMW they should buy one, and if they need FWD (like for all the all-weather capability) they should buy that. But they are not going to get the best of both worlds in the same package, not in this stage of the game. Just my humble opinion; everyone may please feel free to disagree.

[RDV]

Theres critters that walk on their hind legs, theres criters that walk on four legs, theres no critters that walk on their front legs....

That said Supertourers in BTCC had 340bhp and had power oversteer, the front wheels could pull them into the corner. Front geometry was rather extreme, as was the caster, negative offset and power steering a must, any failure of the system meant straight on , maybe godzilla could turn the steering wheel in that situation, but drivers couldnt.... but no torque steer.

...... you are probably right about road cars though.....

[UreaBorealis]

328HP FWD Hatchback

That seems a bit insane car

[Chui]

There are Honda guys in the 'States that regularly supercharge and turbocharge their Integras (1.8L) and Preludes (2.2L). They make anywhere from 300 bhp to 400 bhp easily and reliably. They also have limited slip differentials, but they still have torque steer issues as the vehicles try to gain traction on cambered road surfaces.

[VAR1016]

I have some Lancias, all of them front wheel drive.

The Fulvias are superb - proper double wishbones at the front and these are long and wide-based; of course there isn't the power that has been discussed in this thread. The 1600 (about 150HP) runs 1 degree of negative camber and 3.5 degrees of castor; there is no torque steer and with correct tyre pressures no understeer except in extremis.

However my Thema Turbo is rated at 205HP with of course lots of torque when the turbo is blowing, but it is very stable and really vice-free.

I am told however that lift-off oversteer with a Thema turbo can be somewhat terminal

PdeRL

[Christiaan]

Hmmm, I didn't think that MR2 thing through when I was told it. It must be one of the MX cars or something then. I inspected the car's driveshafts. The shafts on my Camry are about an inch in diameter. The ones on this car are a good 2.5 inches. Hmmm methink, hmmm.

Is this car available in the Americas?

[AS110]

We get nearly everything Japanese domestic here in New Zealand,but I can see no Cronos with a 3L engine,they all have the 2.5 V6 - the only 3L V6 Mazda do is the Luce and Sentia with the JE and JF,these are both rear wheel drive,also seen in the MPV.

[ZoRG]

I don't understand this "limit" you guys are talking about... I can think of FWD car making over 600HP to the wheels, even more for the drag cars that run the 8 second 1/4 miles, they must be over 800hp.

[ZoRG]

Ok, to setup a FWD car you need to play a bit with different ideas, but here is a general drag mostly but also semi track setup.

Increase your front anti-roll bar(Sway bar) stiffness by around 150%, and 300% in the rear, get some springs, 350lbs in the front, 700lbs in the rear with some adjustable shocks all way around. Fit some traction bars to the front, add poly suspension bushes, and engine mounts throughout the car front and rear. Get a ATB(Torsen) LSD and your all set, when you get at the track play with tire pressures, youd be surprised that you can get a FWD car to go neutral or even oversteer.

The ATB, traction bars etc all help with torque steer. Like I say there are quite a few very high hp cars going down a straight just fine.

[schuy]

What if you don't want to just go down a straight?

[alexbiker]

Originally posted by schuy
What if you don't want to just go down a straight?

WITCH! BURN HIM!

Alex

[ZoRG]

Like I say, its a semi track setup too, although a general idea, not something to go by, you need to find out on specific cars what the best setup is.

[schuy]

Originally posted by alexbiker


WITCH! BURN HIM!

Alex

[zfh10]

Originally posted by Christiaan
Some time last year my friend bought a Mazda 626 Cronos with a 3L V6 Engine. I don't know if this car is available to the left hand drive market. Anyway, this car has an engine beyond anything I have ever driven. It is perfectly balanced and very very powerful. It has very low inertia as well. His car is a FWD, and I think it was a mistake to make that car a FWD coz its handling is lacking.

I have two issues. First, a while ago I posted on FWD vs RWD. Driving his Mazda I feel some steering problems which go away when you ease of the throttle. I saw on BBC TopGear that there is a new SAAB which has about 200bhp and is a FWD and handles with no problems. The presenter said that 200bhp was actually supposed to be a design limit of FWD. Can anybody provide clarity o this, on the actual mathematics involved.


Secondly this engine is unbelievable. I know that it is not a stock engine. The dyno says that its well into the 300hp range. Driving this car is absolutely thrilling, but its very difficult to get the power to the tar because the clutch keeps slipping. With the clucth pedal fully out the car will rev to about 7000rpm before you start accelating, Let go of the throttle then you get some traction at about 3000rpm and the car lunges foward. This car is about 10years old, and we creamed an M3 at the drag races. The clucth was new then, but it still did have the same problem, only not as severe. I want to know more about th isengine, apparently a detuned version is in the MR2. Does anybody know anything about this engine? Uh, and what can be done about this clutch slip problem?

my limited knowledge says that a 10 year old Mazda 626/Chronos has a 2.5l v6, same as Fords Telstar. I would be extremely surprised if this engine had "well into the 300hp range". Unless someone has sneaked a race engine into a crusty old 626...
As for "creaming an M3"....
I'd have to see it to believe it!

[simbs]

ndeipi mudhara

I agree with the previous poster (zfh10) in saying that the largest engine on the 626 Chronos was a 2.5l V6. However, I think there was a Mazda 929 in the same generation, which is where your engine could have come from. But 300HP is quite a lot from a 3l V6 in my opinion.

[indigoid]

My housemate's father has some hi-po recent Saab, a 9-3 Monte Carlo. I believe they were all a lurid cheese-yellow colour, and had a little turbo four-banger. That might be the 200hp job you're talking about. Haven't driven it myself, but the old man reckons it's a work of art. Personally I prefer RWD cars

edit: regarding Hondas... a local (Aussie) car magazine punted a current model Integra Type R and NSX around the Phillip Island race track last year sometime, and found that the NSX was only two seconds quicker per lap. Not what I'd expected! Circuit map here:http://www.nmd.com.a...etail.cfm?id=6#

[Christiaan]

simbs, they had drag races near where you used to live. The only car that could beat it before it rained was a Twin Turbo Skyline GTR. Some of the cars we are getting here from Japan are definately after-market - like that Skyline. They also had a Toyota Levin version that I had never ever seen before. Gentlemen you should see this car, its quite tame on the outside - metallic beige with grey leather interior. Pop the hood and theres all this Japanese writing and a Mazda logo written 3L V6. Yes I have not seen any 3L Cronos, not at all - even the manual refers to 2L and 2.5L. I don't think its the same engine as a 929 coz I believe the 929 is a RWD. Unless the engine was shoehorned by an expert. Still, this car only cost my friend U$4000 so I am still wondering where exactly it came from.

The dude who did the dyno for us is very capable - I rate him better than any of the places my gorl and I used to go in South Africa. I will try and get imaging uploaded on the Internet so you can all view it.

[zaktoo]

Hey Christiaan - Hoezit my bra? ;-)

I know of only 2 3.0 litre V6 Mazda engines - a 2954cc unit as fitted to the Sentia/929[Luce] models previously mentioned, and a new 3.0 V6 (2967cc) that AFAIK has only been fitted to a couple of concept cars. This engine is of course just a Mazda-ised version of the Ford/Jaguar 3.0 V6 as seen in the Ford 500, Mondeo & Jag X-type & S-Types. Even here i9n South Africa, with Ford and Mazda working as closely as they do, the only engine offered in the 626 was a 2.5 V6, not a 3-litre. (Only V6 engine I mean.) The only thing I can think of is that the engine was custom bored/stroked and the script also custom made... That sounds unlikely though. Was it not possibly the 2.5?

Anyways, torque-steer and FWD is always going to be an issue, as is (in my limited knowledge of this area), the matter of getting sufficient grip when accelerating hard. Thw weight of the car naturally shifts rearward under heavy acceleration, leaving the front end "light" and less grippy. Of course on-track handling deficiencies are easily tripped over in a FWD car, where understeer is difficult to overcome and lift-off oversteer can quickly catch the unwary.

HTH

Ciao

Zak

[indigoid]

which Levin? Toyota have been selling Levins since 1970, so you'll need to be more specific