66 replies to this topic

[Anders Torp]

In the mid-90s many considered Tom Walkinshaw to be an excellent team manager following his successful involvement in Benetton and (to a lesser degree) Ligier. Yet he failed totally with Arrows only a few years later and his whole TWR Group collapsed. Any thoughts on Walkinshaw’s strengths and weaknesses?

[Gary Davies]

Originally posted by bertocchi
ONE of his weaknesses must be that he was patently dishonest. After that, who cares.

Quite possibly true as I understand it. However, I should like to join Anders Torp in encouraging those with some useful insights into Walkinshaw to post in this thread.

[jph]

Originally posted by bertocchi
ONE of his weaknesses must be that he was patently dishonest.

That's a big statement. It always struck me that what he did with Jaguar in touring cars and Group C was pretty impressive, but he was out-flanked in F1. I can't remember the details of the TWR Group / Silverstone / BRDC affair, other than some of m'learned friends getting rather involved. It would be interesting to know what sort of escapades led to the 'dishonest' tag (defamation laws permitting....).

[JtP]

I have to make the observation that Mr Walkinshaw has a reputation for being extremely litigeous as well as having a good supply of lawyers. Well he certainly did at one time.

He certainly has had over the years his fair amount of disputes as to the legality of some of the cars he has run in various championships. Some of the disputes extending well into the next season by which time the winner of the championship had lost any commercial benefit from the winning. Even his taking over of Arrows alledgdly nearly resulted in a legal dispute with Jack Oliver.

I think the real problem in the demise of Arrows was in alledgedly making promises to Niki Lauda and alledgedly failing to honour them. Lauda then by his own public admission had to explain to his bosses at Ford why he allowed the some of his actions to take place without the payments alledgedly being made. Possibly the money spent buying the Prost assets might have been put to better use.

[D-Type]

Originally posted by bertocchi
ONE of his weaknesses must be that he was patently dishonest. After that, who cares.

That's a fairly strong accusation. Can you explain or justify it please?

[Anders Torp]

Originally posted by bertocci
Seems like you could start (and end) with the representations that he made to the employees at Arrows regarding their wages and the suffering that they endured. Doing business with him is akin to doing a sponsorship deal with Eddie Jordan. No, this is not an honorable person...not at all.

I'm sure that many at Arrows were very disappointed with how Walkinshaw managed the team towards the end. But even so that doesn't really justify your earlier remark.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by bertocchi
Seems like you could start (and end) with the representations that he made to the employees at Arrows regarding their wages and the suffering that they endured. Doing business with him is akin to doing a sponsorship deal with Eddie Jordan. No, this is not an honorable person...not at all.

You must be new to the 'sport' of autoracing.

[jorism]

What is Walkinshaw doing nowadays?

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by jorism
What is Walkinshaw doing nowadays?

Perhaps he still has his flower shop?;)

PdeRL

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by jorism
What is Walkinshaw doing nowadays?

Time?

[Vicuna]

He was/is a bottom feeder.

He got found out. No one should be surprised.

[jph]

Bald statements like 'patently dishonest' and 'bottom feeder' suggest that this thread may be more comfortable in another place. They may or may not be true - if they are, a bit more substantiation would be interesting.

[Falcadore]

Originally posted by Anders Torp


I'm sure that many at Arrows were very disappointed with how Walkinshaw managed the team towards the end. But even so that doesn't really justify your earlier remark.

Not if you were one of those Arrows employees and had to support your family.

[ensign14]

Well, there are rumours of course about the dubious legality of the 1994 Benetton. Who was the team manager at the time?

It was also rumoured that the removal of the manager was something demanded by the FIA after one too many controversies.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by Falcadore


Not if you were one of those Arrows employees and had to support your family.

I doubt anyone is about to start a thread on the mess Alain Prost made of his team...

[brignolo]

He was blatantly dishonest. Does not anyone remember, at the last trial, the comments made by the judge against Walkinshaw? They were very strong. Of course, in this business, everyone is to a point, dishonest, but in Walkinshaw's case, it seems that he carried it a bit too far.

[jph]

Partly answering my own question, interesting extract from Justice Lightman’s comments in the Arrows insolvency hearing in July 2002. “… the Arrows management can only be described as underhand and improper, indeed downright dishonest". He also said that "the only inference I can draw from this state of affairs is that [Arrows] is prepared to say or do anything which it thinks best suits its interests" and "is and has long been insolvent" and that he was "concerned for all the creditors of Arrows. The management of Arrows however are responsible for the prolonged insolvent trading and if Arrows goes into liquidation, administration or receivership (as appears practically inevitable) creditors may have to seek relief against the directors in proceedings for wrongful and fraudulent trading".

Walkinshaw later responded saying that the judge was wrong in his assessment and did not have access to all the necessary information. "The company's never been insolvent," he said. "There has never been any fraudulent trading or any irregularities that I'm aware of." This does tend to support some of the ‘bottom feeder’ type statements, I guess!

If I understand it correctly, the largest creditors were TWR Group and other Walkinshaw private interests. Without in any sense diminishing the plight of unpaid employees and other innocent creditors, there must be some poetic justice in this. Arrows was hardly the first and will certainly not be the last racing organisation to have traded while insolvent and to have left a trail of debt. What makes Mr Walkinshaw’s behaviour more reprehensible than some of the others (that’s a genuinely interested question, not in any sense an apology for TW)?

[ensign14]

Originally posted by jph
What makes Mr Walkinshaw’s behaviour more reprehensible than some of the others (that’s a genuinely interested question, not in any sense an apology for TW)?

Maybe cos with some (e.g. Prost) you get the feeling that the team was brought down by sheer incompetence, rather than dishonesty?

[Falcadore]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld


I doubt anyone is about to start a thread on the mess Alain Prost made of his team...

This isn't an Alain Prost thread. The fact that others have done worse by their employees is a bit OT isn't it?

[flyer72]

I hear good ol' Tom is hanging out in the south of France enjoying his retirement.

Tom Walkinshark earned that name, but he can look back at a pretty successfull life. Like Prost he have done many good things in his career, but sadly, will always be remembered for his failure with Arrows. Don't forget that he built up TWR and ran it for a long time before having to "surrender". Reynard also comes to mind...

TW did use up his name trying to save his team, and his team had everything they needed to be successfull, except money! His team failed because of the bad economic times, and he tried to keep it running without having proper funding. The sad truth is that the team should have ceased operations a lot earlier than it did. I'm still pretty amazed that he managed to build up that debt! Arrows was placed in administration with debts of £51.3m, and TWR went into receivership with debts in excess of £35m. Most of TWR's debt was because of Arrows...

TW did a lot of things that morally and ethically are just plain wrong, but he tried to save his F1 team at all costs and lost TWR as well because of that. It isn't the first time someone needed to cut down but refused to and basically died as a result...

To the comments about how some at Arrows and others were disappointed about how TW managed the team towards the end... he kept that team alive longer than any of us could.

With the failure of Prost GP and the whole DART thing, it is pretty obvious that TW tried to get his hands on Prost's team entry into F1 so he could let Arrows go bankrupt and be "reborn". Not a bad idea - but he was stopped by the FIA.

I really dislike all the litigation that surrounded TW and Arrows throughout the years, as I see that as a really bad way to do business. On the other hand I do have respect for TW and what he achieved throughout his career.

[Felix]

Of course the FIA stopped him taking over the Prost nosecones and entries, then closing his team and starting another as though nothing went wrong! Also, as far as keeping Arrows alive longer than anyone else did - that is fairly easy to do when you do what Justice Lightfoot said ''is that [Arrows] is prepared to say or do anything which it thinks best suits its interests" - see above. And, still Arrows failed!

Frankly, Walkinshaw tried one trick too many, and his many (ex-) employees are paying the price whilst he suns himself in the south of France...

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by Falcadore


This isn't an Alain Prost thread. The fact that others have done worse by their employees is a bit OT isn't it?

Well just the idea that we should suddenly crucify Tom W as if the Arrows employeees were the first in the history of racing to go without pay.

I dont think Tom W is really any worse, he just got caught.

[Anders Torp]

Thanks for your comments, flyer72!

[Vitesse2]

I've never really followed tin-top racing, but I do seem to recall some controversy/illegality regarding the TWR Jaguars in the early 80s .... Frank?

[Falcadore]

I guess it comes back to weather an $80,000 sports car can or should be considered eligible for touring car racing, but the Mazda RX7 had kind of stole a march there.

But all the same, if someone rocked up to a touring car race with a Ferrari Modena, would you allow it?

[Falcadore]

Although one year at Bathurst, Tom Walkinshaw fired in a protest over almost every Sierra in the field over their turbochargers, leaving severalteams without the turbo they intended to race with, and some didn't have a suitable spare.

One of the Ford teams counter protested Walkinshaws Commodores. All the Sierras were cleared. The Commodores were not.

[flyer72]

Originally posted by Felix
Of course the FIA stopped him taking over the Prost nosecones and entries, then closing his team and starting another as though nothing went wrong! Also, as far as keeping Arrows alive longer than anyone else did - that is fairly easy to do when you do what Justice Lightfoot said ''is that [Arrows] is prepared to say or do anything which it thinks best suits its interests" - see above. And, still Arrows failed!

Frankly, Walkinshaw tried one trick too many, and his many (ex-) employees are paying the price whilst he suns himself in the south of France...

I don't get people like you. Who do you think could have saved Arrows? The union? Get real!
Noone could have saved the team! Easy to keep a team alive? Riiight! Let me see you rack up a £51.3 mill debt! That the team didn't go bankrupt earlier is a miracle! As I mentioned TW kept that team running for too long. He should have closed the doors and fired everyone a lot earlier, instead he gambled and lost more than anyone else in the process!!! And for that he gets what? Oh, you made us unemployed... Yeah, he should have done that a lot earlier!!!! He operated a team at a loss and built up a debt as a result. If he could have signed a major sponsor, he could still be in business, ever think about that? His ex employees would have been out work at least two years earlier if TW would have played by the books. How do you think TW's ex employees would like that? Spare the "his many (ex-) employees are paying the price whilst he suns himself in the south of France... " comments, they are simply not appropriate. TW gave the team a chance to survive, and he lost his name and his TWR empire because of that. So what if he bent some rules in the process? He paid more than anyone else for this!

[Falcadore]

The fact that he personally lost money based on him making guarantees that were not met, does not make him any less incompetant though does it?

[Vitesse2]

Nor any more honest ...

[ensign14]

Easy to gamble a few million when you have tens of millions...

TW was a big fish in a small pond. Sometimes big fish in small ponds will be big fish in big ponds as well. And TW showed initial promise; but it seemed he needed the money to make money. He could not build on a lower budget. TW as a tiger shark could not cut it with the whales. Which are not fish. But I don't care.

[Felix]

Flyer 72

Spare the "his many (ex-) employees are paying the price whilst he suns himself in the south of France... " comments, they are simply not appropriate.

As I made the original comment, allow me to defend it:

I know plenty of employees who lost their houses in and around Leafield whilst he ponders his next move in luxury in the south of France. Does it not strike you as strange that he still has that house? Maybe the liquidators should continue digging ... and establish in whose name it is now registered and when that occurred.

[TailHappy]

Originally posted by flyer72


I don't get people like you. Who do you think could have saved Arrows? The union? Get real!
Noone could have saved the team! Easy to keep a team alive? Riiight! Let me see you rack up a £51.3 mill debt! That the team didn't go bankrupt earlier is a miracle! As I mentioned TW kept that team running for too long. He should have closed the doors and fired everyone a lot earlier, instead he gambled and lost more than anyone else in the process!!! And for that he gets what? Oh, you made us unemployed... Yeah, he should have done that a lot earlier!!!! He operated a team at a loss and built up a debt as a result. If he could have signed a major sponsor, he could still be in business, ever think about that? His ex employees would have been out work at least two years earlier if TW would have played by the books. How do you think TW's ex employees would like that? Spare the "his many (ex-) employees are paying the price whilst he suns himself in the south of France... " comments, they are simply not appropriate. TW gave the team a chance to survive, and he lost his name and his TWR empire because of that. So what if he bent some rules in the process? He paid more than anyone else for this!

You make it sound as if he did the employees a favour by managing to keep the company running longer than many other could have. However I think the thing that yo uare avoiding is that, in the latter stages, he kept the company running WITHOUT paying the poor bloody workers! In that sense, yes, it would have been better for them to be laid off ealier.

And yes, he lost a great deal too. But he came oout of it with plenty enough to maintain a good lifestyle. Some of his workers, during the latter months, have probably come out of it with a pile of bills and personal debt accumulated from not having any pay for so long, and without a comfy nest egg to fall back on.

[flyer72]

Originally posted by Felix
Flyer 72

Spare the "his many (ex-) employees are paying the price whilst he suns himself in the south of France... " comments, they are simply not appropriate.

As I made the original comment, allow me to defend it:

I know plenty of employees who lost their houses in and around Leafield whilst he ponders his next move in luxury in the south of France. Does it not strike you as strange that he still has that house? Maybe the liquidators should continue digging ... and establish in whose name it is now registered and when that occurred.

Well that is a shame - but that would have happened regardless! Do you really think that the employees of Prost GP feel any better?

It doesn't strike me as strange at all if TW isn't exactly poor, TWR was making money for a long time... and TWR grew into a rather large company. Surely noone wanted Arrows to go bust - but would it have helped to kill of the company two years earlier for anyone, especially the employees? The people would have been unemployed a lot earlier, that is all, and they would have had the exact same problems as they got. None of them too amusing, I've been there myself sadly - but can they really blame TW for trying to save Arrows????? I don't get that at all! If TW would have managed to pull it off, he would have been a hero to his employees - he didn't so know he is labelled as a wanker. Tough world.

Regarding the creditors, they have all the right to go after TW if he was financially responsible. TWR was parted and sold off by PriceWaterHouseCoopers - but I don't really know if everything could be saved. TWR Australia was saved though and bought by Holden for an undisclosed sum. After the assets have been sold off, I don't know the endresult of the debt's involved.

Originally posted by TailHappy

You make it sound as if he did the employees a favour by managing to keep the company running longer than many other could have. However I think the thing that you are avoiding is that, in the latter stages, he kept the company running WITHOUT paying the poor bloody workers! In that sense, yes, it would have been better for them to be laid off ealier.

And yes, he lost a great deal too. But he came out of it with plenty enough to maintain a good lifestyle. Some of his workers, during the latter months, have probably come out of it with a pile of bills and personal debt accumulated from not having any pay for so long, and without a comfy nest egg to fall back on.

And your point being? That it is unfair? That TW should live the rest of his life in utter misery for trying to save his team? TW lost more than anyone here! He lost Arrows and TWR, he lost his reputation (which was already tarnished), and he lost technically everything he helped build up since 1976. He risked that and lost it all! But if you think that he would risk EVERYTHING that he got, and that he didn't set money aside for himself and his family during the years, I think you are being very naive.

[Falcadore]

Instead of a year being paid in promises, if Arrows had been wound up sooner, the workers would have had a better chance of finding paid work elsewhere, probably not in Formula One, but before they lost their homes.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by flyer72

And your point being? That it is unfair? That TW should live the rest of his life in utter misery for trying to save his team?

There are laws against trading whilst insolvent.

And TW clearly did not give up everything he had - hence his retirement bolthole...

[Jardins]

Tom didn't seem to care what others thought. He crossed the line on numerous occassions and was not good for the image of F1.

[flyer72]

Originally posted by Falcadore
Instead of a year being paid in promises, if Arrows had been wound up sooner, the workers would have had a better chance of finding paid work elsewhere, probably not in Formula One, but before they lost their homes.

So if TW fired everyone two years earlier things would have been ok? I doubt that!

[flyer72]

Originally posted by jph
Partly answering my own question, interesting extract from Justice Lightman’s comments in the Arrows insolvency hearing in July 2002. “… the Arrows management can only be described as underhand and improper, indeed downright dishonest". He also said that "the only inference I can draw from this state of affairs is that [Arrows] is prepared to say or do anything which it thinks best suits its interests" and "is and has long been insolvent" and that he was "concerned for all the creditors of Arrows. The management of Arrows however are responsible for the prolonged insolvent trading and if Arrows goes into liquidation, administration or receivership (as appears practically inevitable) creditors may have to seek relief against the directors in proceedings for wrongful and fraudulent trading".

Walkinshaw later responded saying that the judge was wrong in his assessment and did not have access to all the necessary information. "The company's never been insolvent," he said. "There has never been any fraudulent trading or any irregularities that I'm aware of." This does tend to support some of the ‘bottom feeder’ type statements, I guess!

If I understand it correctly, the largest creditors were TWR Group and other Walkinshaw private interests. Without in any sense diminishing the plight of unpaid employees and other innocent creditors, there must be some poetic justice in this. Arrows was hardly the first and will certainly not be the last racing organisation to have traded while insolvent and to have left a trail of debt. What makes Mr Walkinshaw’s behaviour more reprehensible than some of the others (that’s a genuinely interested question, not in any sense an apology for TW)?

While I must agree that those comments made by Justice Lightman's at that time are quite interesting no legally-binding decision on the matter was handed down by him at that time!

In other words the team wasn't legally insolvent at that time, the end of the road came about 6 months later.

[Felix]

The end of the road has not yet come - merely a fork - and, until final winding up orders are signed, matters can still run their course. I have it on reasonable authority that Morgan Grenfell Private Equity has still not finished with one Thomas Walkinshaw and Arrows and the missing millions...

[flyer72]

I don't think you are very aware of what happened.

Morgan Grenfell invested in Arrows back in 99, acquiring 45% of the team, while TW and a certain Prince Malik got 25% each, with another 5% going to the employees. The team was run by TW. Prince Malik didn't deliver what he was supposed to (getting sponsorship), and he disappered from the scene. Arrows then entered into a large loan agreement with MGPE to cover the expenses, a loan which the team in the end couldn't repay.

Orange, Chello and Lost Boys entered the scene as sponsors together with Eurobet (owned by MGPE) in 2000. Eurobet didn't do very well and breaked the contract they had, and was sued by Arrows! Eurobet was supposed to continue for 2 years... I don't know what happened to that.

Redbull entered in 2001 injecting some much needed cash (and Bernoldi) to the team at the expense of PDLR.

TW tried hard to find new investors and to sell the company, but MPGE vetoed any sort of deal that didn't include the sale of their 45% share of the company. They opposed the restructuring of the company in 2001 (which is one of the reasons why much of the court action was taking place) and the loan repayments finally killed the team. Craig Pollock, Redbull and finally Behring were all rejected by MGPE with concrete offers!

MPGE didn't do very well, they didn't understand that the team was toast fast enough, and their actions killed it. Sure you can blame TW, but once Arrows died his company TWR couldn't finance their share of the debt created by Arrows and was killed as a result as well. I don't know if TW personally owned Arrows or if TWR did - but somehow TWR was somehow financially liable.

MPGE could have understood that their 45% share was technically worthless, and that their loan to Arrows wasn't going to be repayed. But instead of trying to find a solution and be proactive, they let the team die. I'm not sure what they got out of it in the end, but surely the death of Arrows and TWR wasn't going to repay all of that.

TWR was bought by Menard and TWR Australia was bought by Holden (GM). From what I know is that TWR Australia was largely untouched - but only about half of the jobs in the UK were kept by Menard.

[Felix]

I am fully aware of all that (and more), and, as I said, the matter is far from finished and MGPE are not just going to let some missing millions stay missing. Right now they are bound to wait until the liquidation is settled, and then will take whatever action they consider appropriate.

Sure, they did not allow the restructure ... and, frankly, I am not surprised: the 'restructure' consisted of moving all Arrows assets into a new company (in which they would have no equity), which would then run Arrows for TW's account! Would any sane party allow it to go ahead on that basis?

Finally, I doubt whether there has been a category in which Walkinshaw's operations competed in without constant (proven in most cases) allegations of illegality. Put differently, TWR was in partnership with every one of Ford's European companies - Ford, Volvo, Mazda, Jaguar, Aston Martin and Cosworth - and every partnership eventually ended with legal battles. What does that say? That everybody else is outta step?

[TailHappy]

Originally posted by flyer72
And your point being? That it is unfair? That TW should live the rest of his life in utter misery for trying to save his team? TW lost more than anyone here! He lost Arrows and TWR, he lost his reputation (which was already tarnished), and he lost technically everything he helped build up since 1976. He risked that and lost it all! But if you think that he would risk EVERYTHING that he got, and that he didn't set money aside for himself and his family during the years, I think you are being very naive.

Ahhh I see it is easier to simply avoid the primary issue we were focusing on (how he treated the workers in the dying stages of the company) and focus on something you can make an arguement about.

[rgsuspsa]

A crook by any other name is still a crook. No amount of rhetoric and parsing of words
will alter that fact.

[flyer72]

Originally posted by Felix
I am fully aware of all that (and more), and, as I said, the matter is far from finished and MGPE are not just going to let some missing millions stay missing. Right now they are bound to wait until the liquidation is settled, and then will take whatever action they consider appropriate.

Sure, they did not allow the restructure ... and, frankly, I am not surprised: the 'restructure' consisted of moving all Arrows assets into a new company (in which they would have no equity), which would then run Arrows for TW's account! Would any sane party allow it to go ahead on that basis?

Finally, I doubt whether there has been a category in which Walkinshaw's operations competed in without constant (proven in most cases) allegations of illegality. Put differently, TWR was in partnership with every one of Ford's European companies - Ford, Volvo, Mazda, Jaguar, Aston Martin and Cosworth - and every partnership eventually ended with legal battles. What does that say? That everybody else is outta step?

Well we will see. MGPE is highly responsible for the bankruptcy of both TWR and Arrows IMO, and a better deal could have been worked out, possibly saving Arrows and TWR... Why didn't they just sit down with Redbull themselves? Or any of the other investors? Was it really necessary to bring TWR into receivership? Once Arrows entered liquidation the options for how this could be solved just drastically went down the tube... not to mention that Arrows biggest asset, the entry rights to F1 was killed off. MGPE isn't the only creditor in the picture as well... and I don't think they will get as much as they could due to their actions. Just in 2001 they went through THREE people overlooking the Arrows involvement!

Besides that, MGPE only claim is a secured overdraft of £13 million, which is guarranted in half by TW, so whatever the assets brought in will be paid to MGPE - but still it is unsure if TW will have to pay anything. There are a number of creditors, and after all the lawyers are paid, I fear that not much will be left.

In this case it is MGPE talking Walkinshaw to court, not the other way around.

[flyer72]

Originally posted by TailHappy

Ahhh I see it is easier to simply avoid the primary issue we were focusing on (how he treated the workers in the dying stages of the company) and focus on something you can make an arguement about.

So tell me - why should TW pay those salaries and not MGPE? MGPE stopped paying anything since early 2001, yet TW did pay bills personally and with his other company TWR to help Arrows keep alive. All of that was in vain. Verstappen wasn't paid, HHF wasn't paid, Cosworth was paid except for the last two months... About £2 million is still owed to the employees.

Do you think MGPE will be nice and pay that? Afterall they did have 45% of the shares...

[brignolo]

Maybe in a few years, somebody smart will write a good book about the demise of Arrows and Prost, backed up by facts and quotes from people who are knowledgeable, and then we will be able to form an opinion based on a few facts at least.

[flyer72]

Originally posted by rgsuspsa
A crook by any other name is still a crook. No amount of rhetoric and parsing of words
will alter that fact.

Well it isn't called the piranha club for nothing...

[Felix]

Jackie Oliver before the closing: "If the team goes down, it's sad that the Arrows name will disappear," he said. "Arrows survived in F1 for a long time despite not gaining any real success. I ran it with prudence, always thinking of survival.

"Tom tried to make it successful. I kept it going for 22 years, he buried it in three." I was never a big fan of Jack's - either as driver or team boss - but give him his due: he did keep the place alive, and, often, dug into his own funds to keep the team alive. Walkinshaw, by contrast, PROMISED to dip into his own funds... (Ask former employees, ask Niki Lauda, ask Cosworth)

Suggest all defenders of the Walkinshaw faith go to the All About Arrows site:

http://www.sportnetw...106/st17162.htm

and read the sadness and indictory comments there.

As for the weak justification 'Well it isn't called the piranha club for nothing...' - that allows everybody in F1 to act above the laws of countries and decency?

Finally, why should MGPE be held responsible? They INVESTED in, not MANAGED the team. Sure they were stupid to be taken in - as are those taken in by conmen - but, ultimately, TW was the (ir?) responsible person. And, no amount of whitewashing will ever change that.

[Falcadore]

I said a better chance. There are no guarantees in life. It is also possible that Arrows MIGHT have been able to keep afloat. But with an additiona 18 months to look for work, some careers might have been salvaged.

It would not have been a better chance for TW, thats for sure, but for Arrows employees, in a market where a new team was forming in Germany, then who knows.

[flyer72]

We all know that Arrows had one real asset of value - their F1 entry. The deal that involved Red Bull was as follows:

Two commercial agreements, one Technical Services Agreement and one Sale and Transfer Agreement.

The sale involved Arrows to transfer to Red Bull the Arrows entry into F1, the benefit of the Concorde Agreement and the name of the AGPI’s chassis + all the intellectual property rights relating to the design of the cars. For this Red Bull would pay US$4 million per year for five years to be disbursed in equal shares to MGPE and to TW. TW would continue to run the team and act as a director of AGPI.

The technical services agreement consisted of Arrows developing and building cars for Red Bull capable of competing in F1, and managing the team. For this Red Bull was going to pay £13,8 Mill specifically to pay off all independent trade creditors (not including TW or TWR, or any TW related business or MGPE). Another £5 million as a contribution to the ongoing budget of Arrows. And then the services that Arrows would provide (building cars and running the team) would be as agreed (whatever that would contain).

So Redbull would pay £13.8 mill to help kill off the debt, another £5 mill to keep the team alive - MGPE and TW would get $2 mill each for 5 years, and Arrows would have had a future.

This deal which I think was not that bad was killed by MGPE. It would have saved Arrows from bankruptcy, and Arrows could have lived on. Instead MGPE didn't want this for some reason, as they insisted on that any deal should include their 45% share of the company to be sold.