50 replies to this topic

[Don Capps]

Every time I begin to delve into the USAC RRC, I become more than a bit perplexed, grumpy, and frustrated. The addition of the entire run of Gus Vignolle's MotoRacing has been a great help, but there are still some gaps that are nothng short of infuriating. I would like to believe that there is somewhere, that somewhere being in the Chicago area or down in Indianapolis, that the complete results of the many events run by USAC at Meadowdale that Summer survive.

I had not intended to get too involved in the USAC RRC and the SCCA USRRC and all the other similar events such as the Fall Pro Season and even the big modified classes of the SCCA Nationals -- but as I keep surfing though the issues of MotoRacing I got sucked in again.....

I need to update what I have and then see what falls out of the sky. I have tentatively narrowed my focus to the 1958 to 1968 timeframe simply as a convenience to cover the USAC RRC -- 1958 thru 1962, and the SCCA USRRC -- 1963 thru 1968, as well as the Fall Pro Seasons -- basically until 1965 and Nassau until 1966, plus the first three seasons of the Can-Am series -- 1966 to 1968.

Yes, I keep making a salad here mixing apples, oranges, kiwi fruit, pineapples, and lettuce. However, they really do keeping rubbing up against one another....

I must thank Cabianca and Frank S as well as Bill Green at the IMRRC, plus too many to name here at TNF for unearthing no end of amazing stuff on this era. People far smarter than I am are slowing filling in the gaps and we are beginning to see a very interesting era get some attention outside a very small circle of folks.

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by Don Capps

I had not intended to get too involved in the USAC RRC and the SCCA USRRC and all the other similar events such as the Fall Pro Season and even the big modified classes of the SCCA Nationals -- but as I keep surfing though the issues of MotoRacing I got sucked in again.....

Every time you think you're out, they pull you back in again!. Pull up a chair

Good luck on your quest Don, that is truly an area of pressing concern (and on my part, interest). I think you've picked an excellent timeframe there.

Dare I mention the similarly unchronicled Formula scene in the U.S. concurrent during that era?...or should I just go sit in the corner and be quiet?

[Don Capps]

Originally posted by Jim Thurman
Dare I mention the similarly unchronicled Formula scene in the U.S. concurrent during that era?...or should I just go sit in the corner and be quiet?

Oh, no, I often have the same thoughts about the 500cc Club/Formula Racing Association which seemingly fell off the face of the earth when SCG dropped its newsletter at the end of 1965, plus all the other formula efforts out there that seem to be lost in the mists of time....

[Buford]

I have asked this before. Did you ever contact the USAC office or Donald Davidson about this? It was his job for 30 years to be the USAC historian. Did he ever compile this data?

[Don Capps]

Originally posted by Buford
I have asked this before. Did you ever contact the USAC office or Donald Davidson about this? It was his job for 30 years to be the USAC historian. Did he ever compile this data?

Bill Green is working this.

Apaprently the recordskeeping problems in some areas at USAC predate Davidson's days. Outside whatever was in the USAC Yearbooks, little has been released officially by USAC on the RRC it would seem.

[Don Capps]

I have just noticed a most unusual thing. Here are the standing for the Libre race at Watkins Glen as generally accepted:

1st Joakim Bonnier
No. 11 Joakim Bonnier Maserati 250F
81 laps, 1 hr 54 min 10.00 sec, 97.910 mph

2nd Dan Gurney
No. 3 Luigi Chinetti Ferrari 335S
81 laps, 1 hr 55 min 27 sec, 95.60 mph

3rd Bruce Kessler
No. 4 Luigi Chinetti Ferrari
77 laps, 1 hr 55 min 19 sec, 92.15 mph

4th Vic Meinhardt
No. 71 Porsche 550 RS
74 laps, 1 hr 56 min 09 sec

5th Robert Kuhn
No. 12 Lieutenant Colonel Robert Kuhn Maserati 200SI
71 laps, 1 hr 58 min 11 sec

6th Bill Rutan
No. 32 W.K. Rutan Porsche Special
70 laps, 1 hr 55 min 19 sec

7th Phil Hill
No. 2 Ferrari Representatives California Ferrari 412MI
(chassis 0744MI)
60 laps, driveshaft

8th George Constantine
No. 49 Aston Martin DBR2
47 laps, blown head gasket

9th Allen Markelson
No. 35 Ferrari Testa Rosa 500TR
40 laps, split exhaust pipe

10th Ray Saidel
No. 36 Raymond Saidel Jomar 1100 Mark 11
40 laps, clutch

11th Loyal Katskee
No. 17 Jack Finley Jaguar – Corvette
23 laps, differential

12th Bob Said
No. 22 Bob Said Nisonger KLG Special Sadler – Chevrolet
23 laps, cracked radiator

13th Lloyd Ruby
No. 112 Maserati – Corvette
11 laps, engine – cylinder block

14th Herb Swan
No. 24 Ferrari
0 laps, engine

But, when I actually sat down and started using the material provided by the Chief Steward and the Chief Timer and Scorer -- kindly provided by Bill Green, I found a slightly different story. Using the official lap chart and the other information it seems that this was how the results should have been recorded, an error being made in the results for some reason:

1st Joakim Bonnier
No. 11, Joakim Bonnier, Maserati 250F ‘2529’
81 laps, 1 hr 54 min 10.00 sec, 97.910 mph, $2,000

2nd Dan Gurney
No. 3, Luigi Chinetti, Ferrari 335S ‘0628’
81 laps, 1 hr 55 min 27 sec, 95.60 mph, $1,200

3rd Bruce Kessler
No. 4, Luigi Chinetti, Ferrari 315S
77 laps, 1 hr 55 min 19 sec, 92.15 mph, $800

4th Vic Meinhardt
No. 71, Porsche 550 RS
74 laps, 1 hr 56 min 09 sec, $500

5th Robert Kuhn
No. 12, Lieutenant Colonel Robert Kuhn, Maserati 200SI
71 laps, 1 hr 58 min 11 sec, $300

6th Bill Rutan
No. 32, W.K. Rutan, Porsche Special
70 laps, 1 hr 55 min 19 sec, $200

7th Phil Hill
No. 2, Ferrari Representatives of California, Ferrari 412MI ‘0744 MI’
60 laps, 1 min 28 min 49 sec, driveshaft

8th George Constantine
No. 49, Elisha Walker, Aston Martin DBR2 ‘DBR2/1’ (Lagonda ‘DP166/1’)
47 laps, 1 hr 10 min 00 sec, blown head gasket

9th Allen Markelson
No. 35, Ferrari Testa Rosa 500TR
40 laps, 1 hr 04 min 00 sec, split exhaust pipe

10th Loyal Katskee
No. 17, Jack Finley, Jaguar Corvette
23 laps, 39 min 00 sec, differential

11th Bob Said
No. 22, Bob Said, Nisonger KLG Special Sadler Chevrolet
23 laps, 38 min 00 sec, cracked radiator

12th Lloyd Ruby
No. 112, Maserati Corvette
11 laps, 18 min 58 sec, engine – cylinder block

13th Ray Saidel
No. 36, Raymond Saidel, Jomar 1100 Mark 11
11 laps, 23 min 00 sec, clutch

14th Herb Swan
No. 24, Ferrari
0 laps, 2 min 36 sec, engine

I never realized it before, catching it only after I began to match lap chart, pit stops, and fastest race laps.

Add another verse to Pity The Poor Historian....

[cabianca]

Don and Watkins Glen USAC Watchers,
We can argue about the standings, but lets get the cars right.

Correct that P. Hill was in 412 MI 0744, However:

Gurney was in 0628 which was a 290MM (3.5 V-12) and

Kessler was in 0602 which was an 860 Monza (3.5 4C)

[Don Capps]

Thank you, which answers a future question since this was what I had been provided by Others. I had decided to defer any issues with the identities of the cars until I did a review and any revision of the results, but this is a real help.

[Don Capps]

I have found a few differences twix the qualifying lineup in the January 1959 R&T and the 17-24 October 1958 MotoRacing:

Qualifying
1st 2 min 04.03 sec Chuck Daigh, No. 5 Scarab Mark II Chevrolet
2nd 2 min 06.00 sec Phil Hill, No. 2 Ferrari
3rd 2 min 08.14 sec Lance Reventlow, No. 3 Scarab Mark II Chevrolet

4th * 2 min 09.69 sec Bob Oker, No. 59 Aston Martin DBR2
5th 2 min 10.24 sec Dan Gurney, No. 69 Ferrari

6th 2 min 10.82 sec John von Neumann, No. 11 Ferrari
7th 2 min 11.05 sec Max Balchowsky, No. 70 Buick Special Ol Yaller
8th 2 min 11.56 sec Roy Salvadori, No. 159 Aston Martin

9th 2 min 12.30 sec Richie Ginther, No. 211 Ferrari
10th 2 min 12.44 sec Jerry Unser, No. 172 Kurtis Cadillac

11th 2 min 13.57 sec Bill Krause, No. 27 Jaguar D Type
12th 2 min 13.67 sec Ak Miller, No. 110 Oldsmobile Special
13th 2 min 14.30 sec Jean Behra, No. 7 Porsche RSK

14th 2 min 15.16 sec Masten Gregory, No. 88 Ferrari Monza 15th 2 min 15.60 sec
15th 2 min 15.47 sec Bill Pollock, No. 14 Lister Chevrolet 14th 2 min 15.47 sec

16th 2 min 15.63 sec Carroll Shelby, No. 78 Maserati
17th 2 min 17.16 sec Clem Proctor, No. 229 Chevrolet Special 17th 2 min 17.60 sec
18th 2 min 17.68 sec Fred Knoop, No. 264 Huffaker Special

19th 2 min 17.99 sec Ken Miles, No. 50 Porsche RS
20th 2 min 18.64 sec Pat Pigott, No. 126 Lotus Mark XI

21st 2 min 18.77 sec Sam Weiss, No. 55 Ferrari TR
22nd 2 min 19.84 sec Ray Crawford, No. 149 Zuidar Special Kurtis Chevrolet
23rd 2 min 21.77 sec Pete Lovely, No. 125 Lotus Mark XI

24th * 2 min 22.90 sec Jim Rathmann, No. 98 Maserati 450S Pontiac
25th 2 min 23.38 sec Skip Conklin, No. 127 Lotus Mark XI Le Mans

26th 2 min 23.76 sec Allen Markelson, No. 135 Ferrari TR 30th 2 min 24.89 sec
27th 2 min 24.02 sec Billy Cantrell, No. 9 Meyer-Drake Special Roadster 26th 2 min 24.02 sec
28th 2 min 24.29 sec Bob Drake, No. 49 Cooper Climax 27th 2 min 24.29 sec

29th 2 min 24.33 sec Harry Hanford, No. 117 OSCA 28th 2 min 24.35 sec
30th 2 min 24.58 sec Lew Florence, No. 4 Lotus Mark XI 29th 2 min 24.58 sec

31st 2 min 25.34 sec Ralph Ormsbee, No. 129 HWM Chevrolet
32nd 2 min 25.41 sec Marvin Porter, No. 96 Kurtis Ford
33rd 2 min 26.30 sec Bobby Unser, No. 111 Chevy Special

34th 2 min 26.34 sec Frank Becker, No. 121 Ferrari TR
35th 2 min 26.51 sec Gordon Glyer, No. 26 Ferrari TR 44th 2 min 36.51 sec

36th 2 min 27.36 sec Floyd Burt, No. 93 Buick Special 35th 2 min 27.56 sec
37th 2 min 28.21 sec Tom Meehan, No. 122 Cooper Porsche 36th 2 min 28.21 sec
38th 2 min 28.32 sec George Keck, No. 124 Porsche RS 37th 2 min 28.32 sec

39th 2 min 28.79 sec Bill deCreeft, No. 259 Aston Martin 38th 2 min 28.79 sec
40th 2 min 28.97 sec Pete Woods, No. 35 OSCA 39th 2 min 28.97 sec

41st 2 min 30.13 sec Bill Cheesbourg, No. 140 Kurtis Buick 40th 2 min 30.13 sec
42nd 2 min 30.37 sec John Timanus, No. 23 Lotus 41st 2 min 30.37 sec
43rd 2 min 34.15 sec Jean-Pierre Kunstle, No. 118 Porsche GTC 42nd 2 min 34.15 sec

44th 2 min 35.31 sec Bill Love, No. 138 Duncan Special 43rd 2 min 35.31 sec

Started at the Rear of the Grid
Troy Ruttman, No. 6 Buick Special
Johnnie Parsons, No. 181 Porter Special

Did Not Qualify
Lance Reventlow, No. 16, Reventlow Automotive Incorporated Scarab Mark I Chevrolet
Troy Ruttman, No. 6 Buick Special
Dusty Miller, No. 8, Dusty Miller, Maserati
Bert Ruttman, No. 52, Engine Masters, Kurtis Chevrolet
Rodger Ward, No. 77, Italia Motors, Ferrari
Hank Tubman, Dean Van Lines, No. 114, Sebring 2000 SS
Johnnie Parsons, No. 181 Porter Special

* Did Not Start
Jim Rathmann, No. 98 John Edgar Maserati 450S Pontiac
Bob Oker, No. 59 Aston Martin DBR2

[teegeefla]

I hope this does not add to the confusion...I have been digging through information on Dan Gurney, and have found contradictions on his Watkins Glen exploits of September 1958. Some results that I have found say he was driving a Ferrari 335S chassis #0700 owned by George Tilp; the car was #3, finishing in second place on Sept. 28. Yet other sources indicate he was in a Ferrari 290MM, chassis #0628 owned by Luigi Chinetti but also running as #3. To add to the confusion, I have also found contradictory dates for the races: Saturday September 20, 1958 vs Sunday September 28, 1958. Any ideas?

[Don Capps]

The information in my posting is from the Official T&S for the race, which was held on the 28th. The race numbers are correct and I would put my money on Cabiana's chassis numbers versus those given by various other sources.

[Mike Argetsinger]

There should be no confusion here. This is not obscure data.

The date was September 28, 1958. The name of the race was the International Formula Libre Grand Prix at Watkins Glen. It was listed on the international calendar by the FIA and was sanctioned by the Automobile Competition Committee of the United States (ACCUS) and by the United States Automobile Club (USAC) - sanction No. 58 RRD -5. It was conducted and sponsored by the Watkins Glen Grand Prix Corporation.

Dan Gurney was driving for Luigi Chinetti. As Cabianca has mentioned above- the car was 0628, a 290MM Ferrrari, 3.5 liter V-12. Dan finished 2nd to Jo Bonnier who was driving a Maserati 250F.

I hope this assists you.

[Don Capps]

Originally posted by Mike Argetsinger
There should be no confusion here. This is not obscure data.

teegeefla, Mike makes the point I think I tried to make -- this was a very well-organized and conducted event with some very good press coverage. I have never seen any confusion as to its date, although there has been some confusion over the cars -- which seems to be par for the course given how many times folks have apprently made it rocket science versus simply asking.... mea culpa on more a few occasions.

There was an event at the Marlboro track the weekend prior to this which was very poorly attended, perhaps only 2,000 showing up, whereas as the Watkins Glen Formula Libre events were very well attended and well publicized. Indeed, their organizational, financial, and "artisitic" success opened the door for one of the most successful feats of organizational genius in August 1961 when Watkins Glen landed the USGP at the last second and held the event scarcely six weeks later on the first weekend in October.

[teegeefla]

Thanks Mike. The incorrect info on Gurney and 335/#0700 was from the barcehtta.cc and wspr sites.

[Don Capps]

Originally posted by teegeefla
Thanks Mike. The incorrect info on Gurney and 335/#0700 was from the barcehtta.cc and wspr sites.

No comment....

[teegeefla]

Can you suggest a better source of race results info? Thanks.

[Don Capps]

That is why I'm doing it on my own for the USAC & USRRC events -- results and race reports. However, there are folks here -- such Cabianca and Frank and Mike among others -- who have a tremendous span of knowledge plus one of my great sources for info, Bill Green at the IMRRC. It is not just the results, much not is really covered on the sites as to the events themselves.

Outside several of the folks on this site and Bill at the IMRRC, not much of anyone has made much of an effort to really dig into this material.

Send me an email or a PM and I will discuss some of this offline with you.

[Don Capps]

Here is a very rough "draft" of the Pomona race. I haven't done much with it except try to get the basics down. Lots of work still to go, but it is better than what I had prior to digging a bit deeper.

Pomona


First Los Angeles Examiner International Grand Prix
Los Angles County Fairgrounds
Pomona, California
8 March 1959

Distance: 75 laps of 2.0-mile temporary road circuit for 150.0 miles
Purse: $15,000
Promoters: Los Angeles Examiner and J.C. Agajanian Enterprises
Attendance: 40,000 (estimated)


¡ð Qualifying with Speed Trap speeds
1st 1 min 20.155 sec Dan Gurney, No. 69 Ferrari
89.826 mph / 136.36 mph

2nd 1 min 21.238 sec Jerry Unser, No. 172 Kurtis Cadillac
136.36 mph

3rd 1 min 21.46 sec Chuck Daigh, No. 6 Kurtis Buick
129.36 mph

4th 1 min 21.66 sec Max Balchowsky, No. 70 Buick Special Ol¡¯ Yaller
131.37 mph

5th 1 min 21.837 sec Bill Krause, No. 53 Maserati 450S
122.43 mph

6th 1 min 22.274 sec Carroll Shelby, No. 98 Maserati
138.46 mph

7th 1 min 22.555 sec Lloyd Ruby, No. 246 Maserati Chevrolet
130.43 mph

8th 1 min 22.69 sec Roy Salvadori, No. 249 Aston Martin DBR2
131.37 mph ¨C drove Lotus Mark XI Coventry Climax in race

9th 1 min 22.78 sec George Amick, No. 181 Porter Corvette Special
128.57 mph

10th 1 min 23.08 sec Ken Miles, No. 50 Porsche RS Spyder
116.52 mph

11th 1 min 22.26 sec Sam Weiss, No. 55 Porsche RSK Spyder
115.98 mph

12th 1 min 23.32 sec Wayne Wyler, No. 82 Lister Corvette
129.36 mph

13th 1 min 23.40 sec Don Hulette, No. 204 Corvette Special
121.62 mph

14th 1 min 23.40 sec J.E. Rose, No. 245 Maserati
135.55 mph

15th 1 min 23.60 sec Paul O¡¯Shea, No. 4 Sadler Mark III Corvette
125.00 mph

16th 1 min 23.635 sec Ron Flockhart, No. 127 Jaguar D Type
116.62 mph

17th 1 min 23. 755 sec Jim Jeffords, No. 134 Scarab Chevrolet
123. 28 mph

18th 1 min 24.02 sec Jack Flaherty, No. 14 Lister Jaguar
129.36 mph

19th 1 min 24.375 sec Frank Livingstone, No. 184 Eliminator Corvette
135.98 mph

20th 1 min 24.51 sec Ed Vincent, No. 170 Ferrari Testa Rosa
115.25 mph

21st 1 min 24.538 sec Erv Lehr, No. 21 Cooper Porsche RS
124.04 mph

22nd 1 min 24.63 sec Skip Hudson, No. 99 Ferrari Monza
125.83 mph

23rd 1 min 24.74 sec Billy Cantrell, No. 9 Meyer-Drake Special
107.79 mph ¨C Did not start

24th 1 min 24.74 sec Charles Howard, No. 138 Maserati 200 SI
117.52 mph ¨C Did not start

25th 1 min 24.87 sec Harry Hanford, No. 2 OSCA TN
113.23 mph

26th 1 min 25.07 sec Joe Playan, No. 29 Porsche RS Spyder
116.62 mph

27th 1 min 25.11 sec Jim Rathmann, No. 88 Ferrari
115.98 mph

28th 1 min 25.145 sec Gordon Glyer, No. 16 Ferrari Testa Rosa
114.63 mph

29th 1 min 25.17 sec Bob Drake, No. 49 Cooper Coventry Climax
113.21 mph

30th 1 min 25.25 sec Maurice Trintignant, No. 83 Cooper Coventry Climax
111.11 mph

31st 1 min 25.90 sec Jim Hall, No. 273 Lister Corvette
130.43 mph

32nd 1 min 26.065 sec Frank Monise, No. 44 Lotus Mark XI
104.65 mph

33rd 1 min 26.22 sec Jack Nethercutt, No. 102 Ferrari 500 TRC
113.92 mph

34th 1 min 26.495 sec H. Ulrich, No. 171 Maserati 450S
132.35 mph ¨C Did not start

35th 1 min 26.72 sec Wolfgang von Trips, No. 87 Cooper Coventry Climax
98.88 mph

36th 1 min 26.85 sec C.R. ¡°Cliff¡± Haworth, No. 74 Porsche 550 Spyder
112.50 mph

37th 1 min 26.88 sec Bob Schroeder, No. 244 Maserati
116.62 mph

38th 1 min 27.17 sec Bob Oker, No. 59 Aston Martin DBR2
113.05 mph

39th 1 min 27.276 sec S. Conklin, No, 27 Lotus Mark XI
108.33 mph ¨C Did not start

40th 1 min 27.67 sec M. Cummings, No. 165 Cummings Corvette Special
123.28 mph ¨C Did not start

41st 1 min 28.33 sec Tony Bettenhausen, No. 38 Ferrari Monza
116.62 mph

42nd 1 min 28.37 sec Bruce Kessler, No. 3 Sadler Mark 2 Corvette
104.04 mph

43rd 1 min 28.529 sec John Dixon, No. 275 Maserati A6GCS
106.27 mph ¨C Did not start

44th 1 min 28.585 sec Bill Dixon, No. 711 Kurtis 500KK Chrysler
120.00 mph ¨C Did not start

45th 1 min 28.86 sec Floyd Burt, No. 93 Buick Special
118.47 mph ¨C Did not start

46th 1 min 29.06 sec Loyal Katskee, No. 212 Ferrari
126.76 mph ¨C Did not start

47th 1 min 30.38 sec Bill Leyden, No. 77 OSCA Le Mans TN
109.75 mph ¨C Did not start

48th 1 min 30.66 sec L. Robertson, No. 227 Porsche 550
109.75 mph ¨C Did not start

49th 1 min 32.16 sec Bud Hand, No. 26 MG Special
92.31 mph ¨C Did not start

50th 1 min 35.428 sec Reg Wilson, No. 271 Volvo Special
91.37 mph ¨C Did not start

51st 1 min 37.814 sec H. Simon, No. 35 MG Fiat Special
88.23 mph ¨C Did not start

52nd No Time R. Pickering, No. 32 Lotus Mark XI MG
72.29 mph ¨C Did not finish qualifying run ¨C Did not start

On 7 March, there were two races held directly related to the Examiner Grand Prix amongst the various other races that weekend. The first was a consolation race for the non-qualifiers, a five lap event with the results being given for over and under-two litres, the first two in each category getting into the main event on Sunday:

Over Two-litres
1st Bruce Kessler
No. 3, Sadler Mark II Chevrolet
5 laps, 7 min 14 sec, 83.0 mph

2nd Bob Oker
No. 59, Aston Martin DBR2
5 laps

3rd Bill Dixon
No. 711, Kurtis Chrysler
5 laps

Under Two-litres
1st Skip Conklin
No. 27, Lotus Mark XI
5 laps

2nd Bob Schroeder
No. 244, Maserati
5 laps

3rd L. Robertson
No. 227, Porsche 550
5 laps

There was also a 10-lap for those who qualified for the Sunday main event:

Over Two-litres
1st Bill Krause
No. 53, Maserati 450S
10 laps, 14 min 01 sec, 85.6 mph

2nd Dan Gurney
No. 69, Ferrari
10 laps

3rd Jerry Unser
No. 172, Kurtis 500X Cadillac
10 laps

Under Two-litres
1st Ken Miles
No. 50, Porsche RS Spyder
10 laps

2nd Bob Drake
No. 49, Cooper Coventry Climax
10 laps

3rd Gordon Glyer
No. 16, Ferrari Testa Rosa
10 laps

During practice, the Porsche of Sam Weiss spun and hit a flag station. Three flagmen were injured ¨C Chester Anderson, Anthony G. Kelly, and Gerald Perkins. Their injuries were arm, leg, and pelvis fractures, all three requiring hospitalization at the Pomona Hospital.

The race was stopped on the 10th lap after Bruce Kessler spun on the oil dropped when the engine in the Max Balchowsky Ol¡¯ Yaller Buick blew. Kessler¡¯s Sadler spun into an area containing the race officials, injuring several. Kessler, not wearing a seatbelt ¨C or rather he unfastened the one he was wearing, was thrown from the car and suffered fractures to both of his legs, a cracked rib, a lacerated lung, severe bruising, burns, and a severe concussion. Also injured were: the president of the California Sports Car Club, Joe Weissman and two spectators

The Sadler spun on the oil dropped by Ol¡¯ Yaller and hit the hay bales lining the area, continued spinning for about 200 feet, struck the stand containing race officials, and then plowed into two parked cars. One of those injured was a member of the Women¡¯s Sports Car Club, Virginia Baers. She suffered serious injuries to both her legs, one being crushed and the other being fractured in two places. Weissman was struck by in the face with debris from the impact and suffered serious facial cuts and bruising. A teenaged spectator, Eddie Ralphs, suffered a broken arm.

¡ð Results
1st Ken Miles
No. 50, Porsche RS Spyder
75 laps, 1 hr 44 min 58 sec, 85.8 mph, Class E, 300 points, $4,500

2nd Sam Weiss
No. 55, Porsche RSK
75 laps, Class E, 240 points, $900

3rd Skip Hudson
No. 99, Ferrari Monza
75 laps, Class C, 210 points, $1,500

4th Bill Krause
No. 53, Jack Brumby, Maserati 450S
74 laps, Class C, 180 points, $1,000

5th Lloyd Ruby
No. 46, Maserati 450S
74 laps, Class B, 150 points, $900

6th Gordie Glyer
No. 16, Ferrari Testa Rosa
74 laps, Class E, 120 points, $800

7th Joe Playan
No. 29 Porsche RS
73 laps, Class F, 90 points , $500

8th Chuck Daigh
No. 6, Kurtis 500 Buick
73 laps, Class B, 75 points, $800

9th Ed Vincent
No. 170, Ferrari Testa Rosa
72 laps, Class E, 60 points, $200

10th C.R. ¡°Cliff¡± Haworth
No. 74, Porsche 550 Spyder
70 laps, Class F, 45 points, $150

11th Frank Livingstone
No. 184, Eliminator Chevrolet Special
70 laps, Class C, 30 points, $600

12th Jack Nethercutt
No. 102, Ferrari Testa Rosa 500 TRC
69 laps, Class E, 15 points, $108

13th Frank Monise
No. 44, Lotus Mark XI
67 laps, Class G, $108

14th Bob Drake
No. 49, Cooper Coventry Climax
52 laps, Class F, $108

** Jim Hall
No. 273, Lister Corvette
Overheating, $108

** Bob Schroeder
No. 244, Maserati
Retired, $108

** Don Hulette
No. 204, Jaguar Corvette
Engine ¨C piston, $108

** George Amick
No. 181 Chuck Porter Mercedes Corvette
Driveshaft, $108

** Jerry Unser
No. 172, Kurtis Cadillac
Battery, $108

** Perkins / E.J. Rose
No. 245, Maserati
Retired, $108

** Ron Flockhart
No. 127, Jaguar D Type
Engine ¨C connecting rod, $108

** Jim Jeffords
No. 114, Nickey Chevrolet, Scarab ¡®002¡¯ Chevrolet
fuel injection, $108

** Carroll Shelby
No. 98, Temple Buell John Edgar Enterprises, Maserati 450S ¡®4505¡¯
Brakes, $108

** Jim Rathmann
No. 88, Temple Buell John Edgar Enterprises, Ferrari 410 S ¡®0598CM¡¯
Retired, $108

** Wolfgang von Trips
No. 87, Cooper Coventry Climax
Right rear suspension ¨C hub, $108

** Maurice Trintignant
No. 83, Cooper Coventry Climax
Engine ¨C carburetor, $108

** Wayne Wyler
No. 82, Lister Corvette
Rear end, $108

** Max Balchowsky
No. 70, Buick Special Ol¡¯ Yaller
9 laps, engine ¨C dropped rod, $108

** Dan Gurney
No. 69, Frank Arciero, Ferrari
Engine ¨C camshaft, $108

** Bob Oker
No. 59 Aston Martin
Ignition, $108

** Tony Bettenhausen
No. 38, Ferrari Monza
Clutch, $108

** Roy Salvadori
No. 27, Skip Conklin, Lotus Mark XI Coventry Climax
Hub, $108

** Erv Lehr
No. 21, Cooper Porsche RS
Retired, $108

** Jack Flaherty
No. 14, Lister Jaguar
Retired, $108

** Paul O¡¯Shea
No. 4, Sadler Chevrolet
Withdrawn, $108

** Bruce Kessler
No. 3, Sadler Chevrolet
9 laps, crash ¨C injured, $108

** Harry Hanford
No. 2, OCA TN
Engine, $108


Fastest Lap
1 min 21.5 sec by Dan Gurney, Ferrari

Lap Leaders:

Laps 2 thru 28 Dan Gurney, Ferrari
Laps 29 thru 72 Bill Krause, Maserati
Laps 73 thru 75 Ken Miles, Porsche

[WINO]

on,

I have some photos of the start of the 1959 Pomona race and it show Hal Ullrich definitely in the race with the #171 Maserati 450S.

WINO

[Don Capps]

WINO,

That is not the only anomoly that needs to be checked out, by the way. I probably have the same photos and have wondered why No. 171 is pictured but not listed in MotoRacing as a starter -- unless I goofed which is usually the case.

As I stated, this was just the first shot at actually pulling everything together and seeing how it looked and figuring out where the holes were. Thanks for pointing out the problem with No. 171 and Hal Ullrich.

Billy Cantrell is another that is not down as a starter, but gets mentioned as being in the race. Ditto with what is apparently the Rose Maserati being driven by "Perkins."

Until I laid all this out, I had never been able to even try to look into this in any real depth. More headaches.....

Next: Daytona.

Meadowdale looks as gloomy as ever......

[WINO]

Don,

Daytona should be easier: fewer entrants to start with!

Perkins has nothing to do with Ebb Rose. Perkins was the owner of Ullrich's car then. Rose raced his own car and is in the start photos, but never shows up in the end results. Not even as a DNF. The organizers/timers sure messed up in this event.

WINO.

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by Don Capps

12th 1 min 23.32 sec Wayne Wyler, No. 82 Lister Corvette
129.36 mph

** Wayne Wyler
No. 82, Lister Corvette
Rear end, $108

This is an apparent typo I can correct, it's Wayne Weiler. Weiler is an Arizona driver who competed in the 1960 and 1961 Indy 500, was seriously injured in a Sprint Car mishap, recovered to race some in the late 60's (most notably taking a Peat Brothers 'T' bodied Modified over the guardrail on the last lap while running a distant 2nd at the 100 mile Super Modified/Sprint Car open competition at the Sacramento Fairgrounds in October 1968), retired, came back and ran Midgets in Arizona until about 1974. Last I heard, owned a cotton field.

Don, amazing stuff, thanks for doing it

Looking at Pomona in particular, a lot of Champ drivers, and some of them one would not expect in a road race (like Wayne Weiler). What a fascinating mix of drivers and disciplines. Seeing Marvin Porter and Clem Proctor in the Riverside entry shows that some Stock Car racers were present at early pro road races.

[Don Capps]

I have both "Weiler" and "Wyler" from different sources..... :

However, I now think that "Weiler" is perhaps correct after mulling it over..... it is "Weiler" in another source I found tonight so....

Thanks, Jim, this is really lunacy personified.....

[RAP]

Don
Small point but at Pomona shouldn't Pickering's Lotus be Mk1X not X1 ?

[Don Capps]

Originally posted by RAP
Don
Small point but at Pomona shouldn't Pickering's Lotus be Mk1X not X1 ?

Not a small point at all! Typo on my part! It slipped right past me despite thinking "Eye before the X..." Thank you!

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by Don Capps
I have both "Weiler" and "Wyler" from different sources..... :

However, I now think that "Weiler" is perhaps correct after mulling it over..... it is "Weiler" in another source I found tonight so....

Thanks, Jim, this is really lunacy personified.....

Don,

I can assure you it's Weiler.

Two words: Gus Hutchison

Trust me on this one!

Seriously, typos and differing spelling of names is something one runs across quite often - I don't need to tell you that. It seems like road racing publications often misspell oval racers names and vice versa. While I won't pretend to know in many cases, one of my strengths was following both oval and road racing enough that I recognize the obvious ones - like Hutchison and Weiler. I've seen names differ from race to race even in Competition Press & Autoweek :

The worst case scenario is when one gets to some of these fellows that only made two starts, and they were listed with drastically different spellings in both appearances...

[teegeefla]

Sorry to add more questions...

I have found some contradictions regarding Dan Gurney's exploits on June 1, 1963. All reliable sources indicate that he won the USAC road race at IRP, but I have also found a race report saying he fiinished 3rd in Teddy Mayer's Cooper Monaco #44 at the Players 200 at Mosport on that same date. Obviously Dan was fast, but...

Does anyone know the correct date of the Players 200 in 1963, or is this bogus information on Dan racing at this event in Mosport?

[Don Capps]

Originally posted by teegeefla
Sorry to add more questions...

I have found some contradictions regarding Dan Gurney's exploits on June 1, 1963. All reliable sources indicate that he won the USAC road race at IRP, but I have also found a race report saying he fiinished 3rd in Teddy Mayer's Cooper Monaco #44 at the Players 200 at Mosport on that same date. Obviously Dan was fast, but...

Does anyone know the correct date of the Players 200 in 1963, or is this bogus information on Dan racing at this event in Mosport?

The IRP event was not until July, weeks after Mosport.... I will have to check on the exact date when I get home.

[xkssFrankOpalka]

Don, I ran in the Road America USRRC in a Wolverine originally built for Jerry Hansen. I also was a race offical at the Meadowdale pro races. Saw Rodregiuz flip his Porsche Spyder.

[Don Capps]

Frank, By any miracle do you have -- or do you know someone who has -- material relating to the Meadowdale USAC RRC events for 1959? Bits and pieces of flotsam and jetsam on these events I have managed to find, but nothing of any consequence when it comes to exactitude. It was a real mess when you consider that Meadowdale hosted three meetings with something like 11 separate races -- "heats" if you will in most cases -- that season.

I am convinced that we will finally break the code on this series and eventually sort it out as much as possible -- not that all that many really care, but perhaps enough here do care enough to take the time to look in various cubby holes for stuff we may have overlooked.

[teegeefla]

Don-

Any confirmation on the Gurney IRP/Mosport date question? Thanks.

[Don Capps]

The IRP event, the 1963 Hoosier GP, was definitely in late July and not immediately following the race at Indianapolis. "All reliable reports" are certainly quite mistaken in this case. I will make it a point to check this event's exact date when I get home this evening.

[WINO]

According to the 1964 SCCA Road Racing Annual the events took place on the following dates:

June 1, 1963: Players 200 [two heats, 98.4 mile each]
Winner: Chuck Daigh in the 2.7 Arciero Lotus 19/Climax [heat finishes 2nd and 1st]

Hall's Chaparral 1 was 2nd [5th and 2nd]
Gurney's 2.7 Monaco was 3rd [6th and 3rd]
Penske's 2.7 Zerex Special was 4th [4th and 4th

Lloyd Ruby won he first heat and set fastest lap in the 2.7 Harrison Lotus 19/Climax



July 28, 1963: Hooser Grand Prix [200 miles, 40 laps at IRP]
Winner: Dan Gurney in the Arciero Lotus 18/Climax
Next were Hap Sharp [1.5 Lotus/Ford] an 3 Porsches [Holbert, Wuesthoff and Heimrath]

WINO

[teegeefla]

Thanks...I got the incorrect info from 3 different sources. I appreciate all the help I get from the forum.

[Don Capps]

The 1963 Hoosier Grand Prix was held at IRP on the weekend of 27 & 28 July -- the 28th being the day the race was actually held. There is a report on the event in the October 1963 Sports Car Graphic by George Moore.

[xkssFrankOpalka]

Don, let me start digging out my old programs, I have a post card which shows the grid for one of the races. I know most of the cars and drivers, I remember the Scarab, and my XKSS before I owned it, it was owned and raced by "Tossie Alex"on the grid. I think it was a sparse field because did SCCA ban it ? I am wearing my Meadowdale arm band " Asst Race Chairman" as I type. /////////Wino, I have lunch with Hals brother Bill every Friday, I will ask him about the Maser that Hal ran.

[Don Capps]

Thanks, Frank. The results, grids, entries, the whole works is pretty sparse on Meadowdale's USAC events that season.

[xkssFrankOpalka]

Don,my friend Don Huebner was around Meadowdale for many yrs. He has told me he has a pit pass issued to him which says "USAC 1st 505 km GP Meadowdale, Sat May 30, Sun May 31. " The yr is not stated. I have a program from Laguna Seca USRRC, May 1968 with the entry list. Ill post things as I uncover them, brings back lots of memories.

[Don Capps]

"USAC 1st 505 km GP Meadowdale, Sat May 30, Sun May 31. " The yr is not stated.

The year is 1959....

[xkssFrankOpalka]

At lunch today, Bill Ullrich told me that Perkins owned the 450s that Hal raced. Perkins was a wealthy guy from Winnetka, Illinois, a rich North Shore suburb of Chicago.Not much is know about Perkins, the Ullrichs maintained the car for him. Bill says Perkins flew for the British before the US was in WW2. Hal ran the Maser at Ft Worth and Pamona. He had the 2nd fastest time thru the speed traps after Gurney,which seems to fit in with what Don has posted.The post shows that the car did not start the race.. If Wino has a picture of Hal running the car, Bill would very much like to have a copy or know where to get one since he has never seen the pic. Bill was not at the race. Hall passed away about 1 yr ago.

[WINO]

Frank,

Interesting information and yes, I will be happy to send Bill Ullrich a copy of Hal at Pomona 1959. Let me know where I can reach him. But Hal's 450S was not the second fastest in the speed trap there:

1. Shelby [470S] 138.46 mph
2/3. Gurney [Arciero Ferrari] and Unser [Jerry, Kurtis/Cadillac] 136.36 mph
4. Rose [450S] 135.55 mph
5. Ullrich [450S] 132.35 mph

The car that Ullrich drove at Pomona was the former Kimberly car, which Dan Perkins bought from Harry Rollings. John Haas drove it once. Eddie Crawford drove it at Nassau. Then I have Hal in it once, at Pomona. Would be interested finding out when that Ft Worth, Texas race was exactly.

WINO

[ERault]

Regarding the 1958 Libre GP at the Glen :

Kessler was in 0602 which was an 860 Monza (3.5 4C)

Well, Barcboys website (http://www.barcboys....rmLibre1958.htm) shows what is described as an "evil 3.8 Ferrari". In my view, that is indeed a 315 S rather than a 860. My money is on 0684 which spent some time in 1958 in Chinetti's hands.

Edit : did not see the sad news about Cameron Argetsinger before posting. Sincere condolences to his family.

[cabianca]

Earlier in this thread, I posted that Bruce Kessler's mount at the 1958 Watkins Glen Formula Libre race was Ferrari 860 Monza 0602. Recently posted pictures of the race at http://barcboys.com show that Kessler's ride was actually Ferrari 315S 0684, the same car that P. Hill won the 1957 Elkhart Lake 500 in.

This is consistent with the WG entry list, which shows Kessler in a "3.8 Ferrari".

[Hugewally]

Originally posted by Don Capps
Frank, By any miracle do you have -- or do you know someone who has -- material relating to the Meadowdale USAC RRC events for 1959? Bits and pieces of flotsam and jetsam on these events I have managed to find, but nothing of any consequence when it comes to exactitude. It was a real mess when you consider that Meadowdale hosted three meetings with something like 11 separate races -- "heats" if you will in most cases -- that season.

I am convinced that we will finally break the code on this series and eventually sort it out as much as possible -- not that all that many really care, but perhaps enough here do care enough to take the time to look in various cubby holes for stuff we may have overlooked.

Don, I have a couple of Meadowdale programs and I believe a source (or two) for some more... PM me in you will.

Martin

[heidegger75]

Just posted May 31 Meadowdale results in related thread.

Two additional non-Meadowdale notes, for anyone else trying to piece together the season data:

A. The points breakdown for the April 5 Daytona race

1st place, 1240 points. 724 to Antonio von Dory, 516 to Roberto Mieres.
2nd place, 992 points. Shared between Art Bunker and Bob Said, but unsure of distribution.
3rd place, 868 points. Shared between Augie Pabst and Paul O'Shea, but unsure of distribution.
4th place, 744 points. Loyal Katskee drove solo and received all points.
5th place, 620 points. 374 to Fireball Roberts, 139 to Chuck Daigh, 107 to Ralph Moody, and 0 to Dick Rathmann.
6th place, 496 points. 318 to Skip Hudson, 178 to Santiago Gonzales.
7th place, 372 points. 209 to Lloyd Casner, 163 to Lee Lilly.
8th place, 310 points. 164 to James Kaperonis, 146 to Marshall Sargent.
9th place, 248 points. Remo Cattini drove solo and received all points.
10th place, 186 points. Alfonso Thiele drove solo and received all points.
11th place, 124 points. Alonzo Cussini drove solo and received all points.
12th place, 62 points. 38 to Alfonzo Gomez-Mena, 24 to Raimoro Montalvo.

B. It turns out that, although not listed in the season summary, USAC did award points towards the championship for the 12 Hours of Sebring in 1959. Drivers competing at Sebring were not credited with a race start in the season totals, nor were their prize earnings reflected in USAC totals (although prize money was awarded at the race.) Unlike Daytona, points from Sebring were divided equally among the drivers, with one notably problematic exception.

1st place, 2000 points. 500 each to Dan Gurney, Phil Hill, Olivier Gendebien, and Chuck Daigh.
2nd place, 1600 points. 800 each to Jean Behra and Cliff Allison.
3rd place, 1400 points. 700 each to Wolfgang von Trips and Joakim Bonnier.
4th place, 1200 points. 600 each to Bob Holbert and Don Sesslar.
5th place, 1000 points. 500 each to John Fitch and Edgar Barth.
6th place, 800 points. 400 each to E.D. Martin and Lance Reventlow. (Bill Kimberly was entered but did not drive and received no points.)
7th place, 600 points. 200 were awarded to Ed Lunken (the only points for the entire season), but Gaston Andrey's season total of 180 points were earned at Lime Rock on June 6. So the problem is, did the third driver, Augie Pabst, receive 0 points (like Andrey), 200 points (so what happens to the last 200?), or 400 points (why split them unequally only in this case?) Interestingly, if Pabst received either 200 or 400 points from Sebring, it is these "hidden" points that allowed him to defeat Lloyd Ruby for the season championship by a margin of 118 points!
8th place, 500 points. 250 each to Jack McAfee and Ken Miles.
9th place, 400 points. 200 each to Hively (George Hively per USAC standings; Howard Hively per WSRP) and Richie Ginther.
10th place, 300 points. 150 each to Ernie Erickson and Ed Hugus.
11th place, 200 points. 100 each to Count von Hanstein and Carel Godin de Beaufort.
12th place, 100 points. 50 each to Walt Hansgen and Dick Thompson.

[Jerry Entin]

Excellent research, Heidegger!

I always wondered why Behra, Allison, Gendebien, Barth, de Beaufort, etc, showed up in the point standings of the 1959 USAC Road Racing Championship, with accumulated points but without USAC races to their names.

all research Willem Oosthoek

[Jerry Entin]

The April 5, 1959, Daytona results have always fascinated me. Many errors in the spelling of drivers names [Marshall Sergeant instead of Sargent, Paul Manseu instead of Manseau, Raimondo Montalo instead of Raimoro Montalvo -the Cuba book has him as Ramiro Montalvo, by the way-, etc]

Now the issue of 6th and 7th place. The official results have Casner/Lilley ahead of Gonzales/Hudson, both with 137 laps completed. The positions may have been reversed later on, but the order was repeated in the Daytona program for the November 1959 SCCA Nationals. This makes one wonder if there was an updated version at all.

Chuck Daigh as part of the 5th-place Thunderbird team. None of the results list him in the #22 car of Roberts, Moody and Dick Rathmann. Now Rathmann seems to have earned no points, meaning no laps to his name. This jives with the USAC point total for the year, where he does not show. So it is possible Dick did not drive at all. But based on the results, Daigh raced three other entries already: the #88 Edgar Ferrari, the #68 Edgar Maserati/Pontiac and the #65 H/M Thunderbird. Was this his fourth ride of the day?

all research Willem Oosthoek

Edited by Jerry Entin, 25 September 2010 - 17:45.

[RA Historian]

Somewhat related...Vintage Racecar Journal will have a two part article about the history of the USAC RRD in its November and December issues. It will be an illustrated race by race narrative of the entire series 1958-1962. As stated earlier, full race results for a number of races have seemed to have vanished into the ether, so results boxes are not included. I am still trying to assemble a comprehensive record of results. The article may not tell you who finished 14th in each race, but it will cover the highlights.

Tom

[heidegger75]

Chuck Daigh as part of the 5th-place Thunderbird team. None of the results list him in the #22 car of Roberts, Moody and Dick Rathmann. Now Rathmann seems to have earned no points, meaning no laps to his name. This jives with the USAC point total for the year, where he does not show. So it is possible Dick did not drive at all. But based on the results, Daigh raced three other entries already: the #88 Edgar Ferrari, the #68 Edgar Maserati/Pontiac and the #65 H/M Thunderbird. Was this his fourth ride of the day?
 

After taking another look at things, and focusing on the contemporary reports of the race, I'm still unsure which cars Daigh actually drove during the race. The only entry list I have access to is in the Daytona Beach Morning Journal on the morning of the race. The original lineups given for the cars were as follows:

 

Neither of the Holman & Moody Thunderbirds had yet been assigned car numbers. Fireball Roberts was assigned to one car, and Ralph Moody to the other. Neither had a listed co-driver.

John Edgar's #68 Maserati/Pontiac listed Jim and Dick Rathmann as the drivers for the race, while Chuck Daigh was the only named driver for the #88 Ferrari.

 

As we know, that's not how it played out in the race.

 

The results as listed in MotoRacing and on the front page of the Morning Journal show Fireball Roberts and Ralph Moody sharing the #22 Thunderbird. Competition Press includes Dick Rathmann as the third driver of the car. National Speed Sport News includes all four of the drivers in question, and is the only source to mention Daigh. I'm still certain that USAC divided the points as determined 14 years ago, with 139 of the car's 620 points going to Daigh and none to Rathmann. (Without these points, Daigh would fall from 5th to 9th in the season standings,)

 

Most of the contemporary sources list only Moody and Daigh as drivers of the #65 Thunderbird. NSSN is the only exception I have found; they list Moody and Jim Rathmann as the drivers of the car, without including Daigh.

 

Everyone seems to agree, at least in the printed results tables, that Jim Rathmann and Daigh shared the #68 Maserati/Pontiac, and there is no dispute that Daigh was the only driver of the #88 Ferrari.

 

However, allow me to quote three paragraphs from the Daytona Beach Morning Journal's story the morning after the race (all typos mine):

 

"Chuck Daigh, Long Beach, Calif., one of the hot drivers, lasted eight laps. His 4.9 Ferrari had differential trouble. But Daigh had quite a varied day for himself. He later shared driving assignments in Jim Rathmann's Maserati Pontiac and Moody's Thunderbird.

 

"Jim Rathmann, the Miami throttle bender who won both of Saturday's awesome speedway car races here, went out yesterday in the 17th lap. His Maserati Pontiac blew a piston.

 

"Jim's codriver was his older brother Dick, also a noted Indianapolis Speedway veteran. But Jim blew up before Dick got an opportunity to drive."

 

 

With Rathmann retiring in the first half-hour, that doesn't leave much of an opportunity for Daigh to get in the car. But MotoRacing confirms that it happened, in an account written by Fred and Jackie Pfisterer:

 

"Chuck Daigh, Long Beach, Calif., and Carroll Shelby were by far the busiest drivers of the day. Daigh's car retired early and he was sought out by the Rathmann brothers....[Note: ellipsis was in the original text] when that entry conked he joined Ralph Moody in a T-Bird."

 

Competition Press did not comment on Daigh's ride-hopping.

 

National Speed Sport News reported, "The Ferrari driven by Chuck Daigh, of Long Beach, Calif., went out inside of 10 laps with rear end trouble although he subsequently took his turn behind the wheel of two other cars." But later in the same article, we read, "Chuck Daigh went out in an Edgar 4.9 Ferrari after seven laps with rear end trouble, and Edgar's Maserati-Pontiac ceased to function after 11 laps with Jim Rathmann driving."

[WINO]

I vaguely remember that when Jim Rathmann felt that his Maserati 450S/Pontiac was developing problems, he stopped, and Chuck Daigh hopped in. Daigh was an excellent mechanic and had raced the car before on the West Coast. This was probably an effort to see what the problem was and if there was any solution. Apparently, it was a terminal case. So, Chuck did race the car, but it can't have been more than one or two laps.