Jump to content


Photo

Brussels Grand Prix 1961 & 62


  • Please log in to reply
20 replies to this topic

#1 Barry Boor

Barry Boor
  • Member

  • 11,350 posts
  • Joined: October 00

Posted 20 April 2004 - 17:27

For those who are not that old... :( this was a very strange event. It was run as 3 separate 22 lap races with the winner being decided by adding together the points that a driver amassed, with 1st place gaining 1 point; 2nd = 2; 3rd = 3 and so on. Thus the winner was the man with the LOWEST total.

Now, what I cannot remember, and need to know in order to publish my 'official' result is.... was it necessary for a driver to FINISH all 3 races in order to be classified? If I may explain; Willy Mairesse's Ferrari won heat 1 of my race, but then crashed out on lap 3 of the second race. The car then started race 3 from the back and came through to finish 3rd. Being the first retirement in race 2 made him, (to use Indianapolis-speak) the 18th finisher in that race. So his total would be 1+18+3 = 22.

BUT, would he have been counted as a finisher at all? (Jack Brabham's Lotus 24 is in a similar position).

None of this affects the overall result which saw a win for Dan Gurney in the brand new Porsche 804 from Stirling in Rob Walker's Sharknose Ferrari.

I think I had better go and lie down.....

Advertisement

#2 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 20 April 2004 - 18:35

Looks like you had to finish to be classified
Bonnier and Salvadori were first and second in Heat 1 in 1961, but don't appear in the aggregate results - at least not in the first ten places published by Autosport and Autocourse. Brabham gets his 3 points for finishing third, then 1 for winning each of the remaining heats.
1, Brabham 3+1+1 = 5
2, McLaren 4+2+3 = 9
3, Marsh 5+3+4 = 12
etc

#3 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 6,868 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 20 April 2004 - 23:12

I think you've got it wrong Barry. Cars that retired didn't start the next heat, so Mairesse shouldn't have started heat 3.

#4 Barry Boor

Barry Boor
  • Member

  • 11,350 posts
  • Joined: October 00

Posted 21 April 2004 - 06:07

When you say they didn't run in a later heat, is that the same as saying that they were not actually ALLOWED to?

I just thought that the Belgian organisers wouldn't have objected to Mairesse appearing again - for the sake of the crowd.

#5 Arjan de Roos

Arjan de Roos
  • Member

  • 2,363 posts
  • Joined: July 02

Posted 21 April 2004 - 07:10

Barry,

Did you say Stirling in the Rob Walker Shark Nose Ferrari????

#6 Rob29

Rob29
  • Member

  • 3,548 posts
  • Joined: January 01

Posted 21 April 2004 - 07:44

Moss never raced a sharknose,he was in hospital before it was delivered. He raced a Lotus in both 61 & 62. A Porsche in 1960 F2 race. Don't understand the coment re Mairesse either.Results I have for 62,3rd heat 1,won heats 2 & 3 -thus overall winner.

#7 Barry Boor

Barry Boor
  • Member

  • 11,350 posts
  • Joined: October 00

Posted 21 April 2004 - 08:20

Ah, Rob and Arjan, I think you may need to visit

website.lineone.net/~barrybboor

#8 Rob29

Rob29
  • Member

  • 3,548 posts
  • Joined: January 01

Posted 21 April 2004 - 08:48

Cheers,Barry! passed on my slot cars to my younger brother before the end of the 60s.Funnyly enough the first ones I had were a Porsche 804 & a Lotus 24 from an Airfix set.

#9 Arjan de Roos

Arjan de Roos
  • Member

  • 2,363 posts
  • Joined: July 02

Posted 21 April 2004 - 09:31

Ah, in slot he DID participate.

Anyhow, the scenery for the Brussels GP allways fascinated me. Racing around in the Heizel Park (where a world exhibition was held). The 'Atomium' as a background maybe only surpassed by the fairy wheels at Le Mans and Suzuka.

The park still exists, so does the Atomium. So, if you go to Brussels, ...

#10 Barry Boor

Barry Boor
  • Member

  • 11,350 posts
  • Joined: October 00

Posted 21 April 2004 - 10:30

The park and the Automium may still exist but I have been completely unable to trace the line of the old circuit on modern maps of Brussels.

#11 Arjan de Roos

Arjan de Roos
  • Member

  • 2,363 posts
  • Joined: July 02

Posted 21 April 2004 - 15:18

The 3 (?) tracks used can be found here:

http://www.racingcir...gpBrussels.html

Yes, it may be a puzzle where the tracks fits in. With Montjuich I couldnt find out at home. But after arriving at the scene I got the track quite quickly.

#12 Rob29

Rob29
  • Member

  • 3,548 posts
  • Joined: January 01

Posted 21 April 2004 - 17:58

Looks like at least FIVE Brussels circuits including the 2 versions of Heysel. Not much detail here.Think I still have a booking form for the 62 race which had more detail ;stands ,connecting roads ,tram stops,etc. I was planing to go but did not make it.
The'expo' circuit which has no date I guess must be the one used for Belgian touring cars more recently. Never seen a map of that one before.

#13 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 6,868 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 21 April 2004 - 18:48

Originally posted by Barry Boor
When you say they didn't run in a later heat, is that the same as saying that they were not actually ALLOWED to?

I just thought that the Belgian organisers wouldn't have objected to Mairesse appearing again - for the sake of the crowd.

As far as I can see, nobody who retired started the subsequent heats. That includes the BRMs which were disqualified from Heat 2 in 1962 and were presumably perfectly healthy. THe grids got progressively smaller.

#14 Arjan de Roos

Arjan de Roos
  • Member

  • 2,363 posts
  • Joined: July 02

Posted 22 April 2004 - 10:48

Rob,

The Expo track is in fact racing around the Atomium building/monument (?) and easy to indentify on the map. The GP track is on the other side of the high way, but I can't find out where it is running exactly.

#15 Rob29

Rob29
  • Member

  • 3,548 posts
  • Joined: January 01

Posted 23 April 2004 - 07:57

Originally posted by Arjan de Roos
Rob,

The Expo track is in fact racing around the Atomium building/monument (?) and easy to indentify on the map. The GP track is on the other side of the high way, but I can't find out where it is running exactly.

Could not find leaflet I had but no means of posting it anyway. The following from the Autocourse report of the 1960 F2 race may help locate the circuit.'The Brussels-Antwerp motorway runs through the middle of the course,and both during the practice sesions and race day itself the normal traffic proceeded in the normal way encoraged by whistling policemen every 100yds' I also recall that the pits were erected on the tram lines-service must have been suspended at each end of the circuit!
So the circuit was on BOTH sides of the highway.

#16 Arjan de Roos

Arjan de Roos
  • Member

  • 2,363 posts
  • Joined: July 02

Posted 23 April 2004 - 08:59

Fools we are. Try these thread:

http://forums.atlasf...ighlight=heysel

http://www.silhouet....s/brussels.html

Thanks to Mr. Galpin and Mr. De Carli

#17 GIGLEUX

GIGLEUX
  • Member

  • 1,519 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 15 August 2004 - 23:40

Just reading old french magazines and for the 1961 race I found the following results:

Heat 1 22 laps
1.Bonnier Porsche 45.40.6 131,547 km/h
2.Salvadori Cooper 46.52.3 128,523
3.Brabham Cooper 47.00.7 127,526
4.McLaren Cooper 47.01.5 127,476
5.Marsh Lotus 47.15.4 127,148
6.Ireland Lotus 47.35.0 126.271
7.Allison Lotus 21 laps
8.Bianchi Emeryson-Mas 21 laps
9.Campbell-Jones Cooper 21 laps
10.Surtees Cooper 20 laps
11.Burgess Lotus 19 laps
12.Gendebien Emeryson-Mas 18 laps
13.Mairesse Emeryson-Climax 18 laps
14.Moss Lotus 15 laps
FL Bonnier 2.03.4 132,797 km/h
Brabham-McLaren and Mairesse had a 60 sec.penalty for anticipated start

Heat 2 22 laps
1.Brabham 46.04.2 130,423 km/h
2.McLaren 46.13.9 129,967
3.Marsh 47.38.7 126,112
4.Ireland 48.00.4 125,161
5.Bianchi 48.19.6 124,333
6.Allison 21 laps
7.Burgess 21 laps
8.Moss 21 laps
9.Mairesse 17 laps
10.Campbell-Jones 12 laps
11.Bonnier 11 laps
FL Surtees 2.02.6 133,663 km/h

Heat 3 22 laps
1.Brabham 46.16.9 129,826 km/h
2.Moss 46.17.0 129,822
3.McLaren 47.13.2 127,246
4.Marsh 47.36.0 126,231
5.Bianchi 47.41.0 126,011
6.Allison 47.47.6 125,720
7.Burgess 21 laps
8.Mairesse 20 laps
9.Campbell-Jones 6 laps
10.Ireland 1 lap
FL Moss 2.04.7 131,412 km/h

Aggregate results
1.Brabham 5 pts (3+1+1)
2.McLaren 9 pts (4+2+3)
3.Marsh 12 pts (5+3+4)
4.Bianchi 18 pts (8+5+5)
5.Allison 19 pts (7+6+6)
6.Ireland 20 pts (6+4+10)
7.Moss 24 pts (14+8+2)
8.Burgess 25 pts (11+7+7)
9.Campbell-Jones 28 pts (9+10+9)
10.Mairesse 30 pts (13+9+8)

#18 Gary C

Gary C
  • Member

  • 5,071 posts
  • Joined: January 01

Posted 17 August 2004 - 02:35

...........................and didn't Pink Floyd film one of their VERY early videos ('See Emily Play'??) alongside the Atomium in 1967??

#19 Arjan de Roos

Arjan de Roos
  • Member

  • 2,363 posts
  • Joined: July 02

Posted 18 August 2004 - 07:46

The Atomium is an inspiring building. However inside it feels like a space ship out of order, only the main elevator is in operation.

In one of the 'bulbs' you may find a small exhibition on comic figures. As Brussels is home to many comic artists. Among others Jean Graton, father of Michel Vaillant. Our racing hero is also present in this exhibition with some model cars of Vaillant from Jade Miniatures (France).

Advertisement

#20 Herman L

Herman L
  • New Member

  • 12 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 21 September 2004 - 07:40

Last weekend i was in Brussels and i photographed the Expo Circuit.
You can Find these picture's at my site Circuits of the past.

Herman.

#21 VDP

VDP
  • Member

  • 666 posts
  • Joined: October 01

Posted 21 September 2004 - 08:46

the circuit also crosses the motorway in direction of antwerpen under the bridge see one of the last page of delsaux book

Robert