65 replies to this topic

[rjl850]

With this being the nostalgia forum and all, it's seems only natural that lamentations should occasionally here be heard about the death of real road racing. It got me to wondering, though, whether there were any "real" road races left....

As some of you are surely aware, there are a few events here in the U.S. where you can still take a car flat out on real public roads. For example:

The John Foster West Texas Open Road Race, 97miles on rural Texas roads:
http://www.westtexasorr.com/

Nevada's Silver State Classic, where the highest average speed attained over the 90-mile course is 207mph (333kph) :
http://www.sscc.us/

I realize these events leave something to be desired compared to, say, the Targa Florio, with its climing, winding, narrow roads and fierce, factory-sponsored competition from the likes of Porsche and Ferrari. But it also seems to me that there is at least some of the "purity" here missing in other forms of motorsport. Another event that springs to mind -- albiet on two wheels -- is the Isle of Man TT (as an aside, the price of keeping alive an event like this on an unforgiving circuit is something like two human lives per year.)

Comments? Has anyone here seen or participated in an event like this? Are you aware of other races in the world that to you capture the spirit of old road racing? How about hill climbs or rallying?

-Bob

[Eric McLoughlin]

Road racing on two wheels and four is alive and well in other parts of the British Isles - namely Ireland (Northwest 200, Skerries 100, Pheonix Park Road Races etc).

Also, most rallys in Ireland are on tarmac - i.e closed down public roads.

[BRG]

There are still some significant events held at least partly on the public road - most of the Le Mans (Sarthe) circuit is public road for 350 or more days of the year. Not to mention the street circuits - Monaco, Macao, Pau, Long Beach and so on. But in every case, there have been such substantial safety measures that they are largely indistinguishable from regular race tracks.

Rallying nearly everywhere is conducted on closed public roads with very few concessions made for competition purposes - the big exception being the great Britain mainland part of the UK where it isn't allowed except in a few very special cases (Isle of Mull, Scottish Borders). Fortunately we have a lot of excellent (if expensive) forestry roads with which we do very nicely!

It is, as Eric mentions, the bikers that are keeping the real racing on the road legacy going - but at a fearful cost in lives, sadly.

[Pablo Vignone]

As you probably know, Argentinian motor racing has a large heritage of truly road racing. Its most popular series, Turismo Carretera, the one in which one Juan Manuel Fangio honed his skills, was developed exclusively in open, dirty roads. There are still some survivors who tells us tales of the legendary 1948 Buenos Aires-Caracas (9.535 kilometers in 13 legs), won by Domingo Marimón, the father of the late Onofre, who was to be killed at the Nurburgring.
But those races were growing in danger for drivers and people, and the very last road race which was to take place in Argentinian roads was the “Vuelta de Santa Teresita” (Santa Teresita’s Lap), over a 9.5 km circuit, in February 1997. From then the Turismo Carretera series was run exclusively on purpose-built tracks. We didn’t have too any street circuit.
So, at least in Argentina, I can say that real road racing is a thing of the past.

[rdrcr]

For the most part, good, old-fashioned road-racing is dead. Insurance and liability nightmares have effectively killed off all the great ones. Now, mere reenactments with the historic cars and many of the drivers of the eras. Very cool to watch and be a part of, but not real racin'.

The obvious exceptions have been noted, e.g. le Mans - but racing through towns and the countrysides of Watkins Glen, Elkhart Lake and Palm Beach are no longer possible.

The WRC is probably the most expansive series that emulates road-racing today. Rallying isn't really racing against another competitor, more against the clock and the circuit itself. Though I suppose that's what the original Mille Miglia and Targa Florio were all about anyway.

[LittleChris]

The two wheel fraternity keep real road racing alive in both Belgium ( Chimay / Mettet / Gedinne ) and Holland ( Tolbert and various others ) I believe.

[Wolf]

Originally posted by rdrcr
The WRC is probably the most expansive series that emulates road-racing today. Rallying isn't really racing against another competitor, more against the clock and the circuit itself. Though I suppose that's what the original Mille Miglia and Targa Florio were all about anyway.

Richard, the main difference, AFAIK is length of stages- nowdays in WRC, stagesare 20-30km, and then spacing between competitors is 'reset' to 2min (or whatever). Back then, people had to deal with traffic because 'stages' were few and far between... More to the point, didn't competitors in MM start with slower cars progressing to faster ones (IIRC there were different intervals between fast and slow car starts)- so the faster one went, the more opponents he had to overtake.

[Mark A]

Originally posted by LittleChris
The two wheel fraternity keep real road racing alive in both Belgium ( Chimay / Mettet / Gedinne ) and Holland ( Tolbert and various others ) I believe.

There is also a Historic race meeting held on the new Chimay circuit each year. No way the original circuit could be used now as there are new roundabouts etc in place.

[dretceterini]

IMO, the TT motorcycle race is pretty much the last full-fledged road race

[Ray Bell]

Of course there's...



...though it's been upgraded a little since 1960.

[Exar Kun]

Hehe - was waiting to see how long it was going to take for that little track to be pointed out.

[Ray Bell]

Just go down Northbourne Avenue, Exar, and see what remains of the sprint course used back in the late thirties there...

[D-Type]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Of course there's...



...though it's been upgraded a little since 1960.

Ray,

I wish you wouldn't do this to us! I would guess that most of us in the northern hemisphere haven't a clue whether the picture is Philip Island, Bathurst or wherever. Please give an explanitory caption. If it spoils the impact or message of a posting then you could always put it in small print 2" down the screen.

[David McKinney]

Duncan
Ray seems to think that all of us read every post of every thread

Try this:
http://forums.atlasf...&threadid=67965

[Ray Bell]

Aww... shucks... is this better?



...or this?



Hmmm... wonder if D-Type liked the pic of the D-Type anyway?


















.....and there's no trees like that on the tundra of Phillip Island anyway!.....

[D-Type]

Ray,

Of course I liked the D-Type - the shortnose without fin is my favourite variant.

But what are the next crop? I can't recognise any!

[Ray Bell]

Let me see... there's a Maserati leading an Allard, then an Alfa Tipo B, and I'm not sure of the Special behind the Alfa... the second pic... the rear of the Frazer-Nash chasing another car I don't recall into the Esses (just over Skyline...) with spectators in front of the safety fence!

The upper pic would have been taken from a point directly above Doug Chivas' head in the D-Type shot... but just outside the safety fence, naturally. Well, some kind of fence...

[LittleChris]

Wonderful stuff Ray.

Anyone got something similar featuring Burnenville circa 1955 or better still 1939 since there's a picture from that era I'm still trying to ID.

[Aanderson]

You know,

After thinking about this post ever since it appeared (I've composed several replies, but deleted them without posting!), it seems to me that the real "nostalgia" about "open road racing" (on public roads) may well be more about the notion of drivers preparing to race the road (or circuit) as it exists, indeed pretty much as it has always existed.

Is it also that there was a time when car builders (constructors) built racing cars to challenge the various racetracks as they existed, rather than seeing racetracks built to "suit the cars as they now exist?"

How many times over the past 25 years or so, has racing seen the change of a circuit, the modification of this turn or that corner, to make it somehow more palatable to the driver, or the car builder? Far more than I would like to have seen, that's for sure!

How many racing circuits today are virtually the same as they were originally laid out (by this, I am not speaking of the surface, but rather the angle of a corner, the radius of a turn, or even the banking?). I do know, for example that while Indianapolis Motor Speedway has frequently resurfaced the track (the asphalt is now some 12" thick over the top of the original bricks), but the turns still remain 1/8 mile (660 feet) in radius, the banking is still the original 9-degrees 11 minutes that it was in 1911, the straightaways are still 55 feet wide, the turns 65-feet wide, as they were 93 years ago. How many racetracks can still lay claim to that sort of consistency?

I guess, that for me, it is not that the track layout is adapted to the cars and drivers of succeeding generations, but rather that the drivers and car builders figure out HOW to get around that course faster, more cleanly than their predecessors. To me, that is a big part of racing.

Art Anderson

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by Aanderson
You know,
How many racing circuits today are virtually the same as they were originally laid out (by this, I am not speaking of the surface, but rather the angle of a corner, the radius of a turn, or even the banking?). Art Anderson

I'll just pop in before Ray does....Bathurst (Mount Panorama) although made a little safer by the addition of concrete fencing and armco is largely unchanged. The exception being the addition of a kink at the bottom of Conrod Straight know as The Chase. The circuit remains an awesome piece of work and requiring large cods to attack it at speed.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Just go down Northbourne Avenue, Exar, and see what remains of the sprint course used back in the late thirties there...

Forgot to ask.....Ray tell us more.....or point me to the fred (please). Exar do you know something about the Canberra street circuit....got my interest now!!;)

[Ray Bell]

It was only a sprint thing... Hudson Specials and ERAs booming over flying and standing quarter miles on Northbourne Avenue.

As for Bathurst, the line is mostly the same, but some relieving has taken place, and widening has been plentiful.

[ggnagy]

The Schenley Park course for the Pittsburgh Vintage Gran Prix is a circuit made up entirely of public roads, with concrete "jersey barriers" mostly just protecting intersections. Heavy use of hay bales on trees and lamp posts. In 22 years only one permanent change was made when the Start/Finish and paddock was moved from the flagstaff hill area to Hobart St.

As far as changes to track layouts. The majority of changes in the Eastern US were related to the Pro series that used used each course. The "mostly club" tracks have seen smaller changes, primarily in the area of track width and surface materials.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Pablo Vignone
As you probably know, Argentinian motor racing has a large heritage of truly road racing. Its most popular series, Turismo Carretera, the one in which one Juan Manuel Fangio honed his skills, was developed exclusively in open, dirty roads. There are still some survivors who tells us tales of the legendary 1948 Buenos Aires-Caracas (9.535 kilometers in 13 legs), won by Domingo Marimón, the father of the late Onofre, who was to be killed at the Nurburgring.
But those races were growing in danger for drivers and people, and the very last road race which was to take place in Argentinian roads was the “Vuelta de Santa Teresita” (Santa Teresita’s Lap), over a 9.5 km circuit, in February 1997. From then the Turismo Carretera series was run exclusively on purpose-built tracks. We didn’t have too any street circuit.
So, at least in Argentina, I can say that real road racing is a thing of the past.

You know, Pablo, I breezed over this post when it was made and didn't recognise that it was more than just a casual observation...

Please, post in the Introductions thread at the top of the page, I think you have missed out on the appropriate welcome here and I think many would like to know more about you.

[john medley]

Back for a moment to Ray's Bathurst photos some taken 50 plus years ago.

The first shot among the trees in October 1951 shows Wally Feltham's 2 litre Alta, Jack Murray's Allard J2 Cadillac, Ron Edgerton's 'Monza' Alfa Romeo, and Frank Kleinig's Kleinig Hudson. Unseen in the photo as posted is Jack Saywell's 998 Cooper J.A.P. Mark 4 scuttling along on the outside of the Alfa.

The second shot in 1939 shows Jack Saywell's 2.9 Alfa Romeo leading 'Tim" Joshua's Frazer Nash ( nee Horton Special) down into the Esses and through the spectators.

Things havent changed all that much since then on this road circuit -- the trees have been cut back behind concrete walls and the spectators shown have been replaced with runoff areas and fences

The sprints along Northbourne Avenue in Canberra ran mid 20s to late 30s and in those days were out in the backblocks. Somewhere I have a photo of Ron Mackellar sitting in his Frontenac Ford that at one time held the lap record at Maroubra, the background being cows and post and rail fences straight out of " On Our Selection".

[Ray Bell]

You'll be finding and posting that photo shortly, John?

You might have to, of course, explain what On Our Selection was!

[Ian McKean]

Whatever happened to the "Los Caminos del Incas" road race? Last I heard was when Tony Fall won in an Escort in 1970 or thereabouts.

[thomaskomm]

Originally posted by john medley
Back for a moment to Ray's Bathurst photos some taken 50 plus years ago.

The first shot among the trees in October 1951 shows Wally Feltham's 2 litre Alta, Jack Murray's Allard J2 Cadillac, Ron Edgerton's 'Monza' Alfa Romeo, and Frank Kleinig's Kleinig Hudson. Unseen in the photo as posted is Jack Saywell's 998 Cooper J.A.P. Mark 4 scuttling along on the outside of the Alfa.

The second shot in 1939 shows Jack Saywell's 2.9 Alfa Romeo leading 'Tim" Joshua's Frazer Nash ( nee Horton Special) down into the Esses and through the spectators.

Things havent changed all that much since then on this road circuit -- the trees have been cut back behind concrete walls and the spectators shown have been replaced with runoff areas and fences

The sprints along Northbourne Avenue in Canberra ran mid 20s to late 30s and in those days were out in the backblocks. Somewhere I have a photo of Ron Mackellar sitting in his Frontenac Ford that at one time held the lap record at Maroubra, the background being cows and post and rail fences straight out of " On Our Selection".

Hello John: I have a question for you, Is Frank Kleinig the same Kleinig who built the Vee Mako?
Or his father perhaps he had the same name like this son?
I ´m just curious.
Thomas

[Barry Boor]

Not entirely relevant but when in San Francisco recently, I was driven around most of the Golden Gate Park circuit that was used in the 1950s, by my good friend and occasional lurker Charles Stephanian.

All I can say is, what a teriffic place to hold a motor race; and, what a pity they are not still doing so!

[eldougo]

Originally posted by thomaskomm


Hello John: I have a question for you, Is Frank Kleinig the same Kleinig who built the Vee Mako?
Or his father perhaps he had the same name like this son?
I ´m just curious.
Thomas

________________________________________________
To answer your question YES it 's the same family who made MAKO's.father and son.

[Frank S]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
Not entirely relevant but when in San Francisco recently, I was driven around most of the Golden Gate Park circuit that was used in the 1950s, by my good friend and occasional lurker Charles Stephanian.

All I can say is, what a teriffic place to hold a motor race; and, what a pity they are not still doing so!

A little light on The Golden Gate:



I believe the cover photo is staged and does not show a view available on race day.

Other versions of the same images at sizes up to 1465x (184K).

[Magee]

The Golden Gate in SF and the Lion's Gate in Vancouver are twin bridges. The other similarity was the proposal to use Stanley Park, straddling the southern approach to the bridge, as an ideal road course. It could have been but for too much opposition by the Tea House and others. Why do they always spoil it for others. :

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
Not entirely relevant but when in San Francisco recently, I was driven around most of the Golden Gate Park circuit that was used in the 1950s, by my good friend and occasional lurker Charles Stephanian.

All I can say is, what a terrific place to hold a motor race; and, what a pity they are not still doing so!

Entirely relevant, I would say...

There was a similar hillclimb in the Botanic Gardens (or was it the Domain?) in Hobart, near the Tasman (and later Captain Cook) Bridge.

[Barry Boor]

If anyone is remotely interested, I will post some pictures of the circuit when I get my holiday video sorted out.

[Frank S]

There can never be too many 'ghost' circuit photos.

[Don Capps]

Originally posted by Frank S
There can never be too many 'ghost' circuit photos.

Amen!

[Rob29]

Originally posted by Frank S

A little light on The Golden Gate:



I believe the cover photo is staged and does not show a view available on race day.

Other versions of the same images at sizes up to 1465x (184K).

Another amazing discovery from this forum! I was there in 1990 and must have walked on part of this circuit,but never knew they raced there.

[SEdward]

Just out of curiosity, how many races out there are still run on public roads, and I mean real ones that have to be closed with gendarmes all over the place and "Diversion" signs for the uninformed unwashed?

In my immediate vicinity, I can only think of Le Mans, Spa and Monaco.

And please don't mention the IOM TT, coz that's for real men...

Edward.

[Falcadore]

Mounr Panorama has its two meetings a year.

The annual Pau Grand Prix in France, these days a Formula 3 event.

The Macau Grand Prix carnival.

Albert Park for the Australian Formula One Grand Prix of course, and its US influenced mirror, Surfers Paradise Street Circuit.

Adelaide Parklands circuit used for the Clipsal 500.

Long Beach, Denver, Toronto, Circuit Gilles Villeneuve in Montreal, Belle Isle in Detriot, Pacific Place in Vancouver,

Does the Norisring near Nuremburg in Germany count?

[SEdward]

The Gilles Villeneuve circuit in Montreal does not look like a road circuit to me. I have never seen any road signs or traffic lights...

But I have never been there.

Edward

[Falcadore]

The racing circuit was formed from the roads which wound their way through the former World Exposition site which was built next to the Olympic rowing course.

You can't test at there as its public road. Just there's not much reason to use them most of the year.

[Coogar]

I have to mention Phoenix Park in Dublin. A once-a-year gallop round some of the roads used in the Irish (sports car) GPs of 1929 or thereabouts. The Park remains the same, some of the surfaces feel as though they are the same too, but the layout is slightly different nowadays.
For the rest of the year it's a public park with real traffic, buses, trucks, cyclists etc, but for just one weekend.........

[Ray Bell]

No horses?

[SEdward]

I was on holiday in Sicily last week. Despite gurlie's whining, I insisted on doing just one lap of the Targa Florio circuit. We did the "Piccolo Madonie" (72 km), which is the route used for the race until its demise.

I can only say that I am astonished that this "circuit" was used up until 1975. There is not much left apart from the remnants of the pits and grandstands at the start-finish.

There is a historic event there this weekend.

We also went to Enna Pergusa, which was far less spectacular but must have produced some juicy F2 mad dashes in the pre-chicane days.

Edward.

[cabianca]

The promotional photo for the Golden Gate Park races previously shown was just that, promotional. It was obviously taken to get the GG Bridge in the background and was on a stretch of road that was (and is) a few miles from the actual Golden Gate circuit. When you reach the South end of the Golden Gate Bridge, go thru the right hand toll lane and take an immediate right. Go up the hill and take a another right and you will be on the road where the photo was taken.

[ElvaMK2]

HMSA Prez Cris Vandagrif says he is working on bringing back a Vintage Race at Golden Gare PArk. Wow, what an event that would be!

[Barry Boor]

I have been driven around the Golden Gate park circuit - it's wonderful!

BUT, wouldn't the noise frighten the buffalo?

[Mal9444]

The Dundrod circuit - all except the wonderfully visual Leathemstown Bridge with its left-and-right S, now completely by-passed - still exists and as previously noted is still used for two-wheel road racing. And one can still drive it the whole way round. The roads have barely changed since 1955. Even at the legal limit of 60mph (;) it requires considerable concentration to maintain a respectable average: the thought of doing it at up to 135 in a D-type or 300slr is well-nigh impossible for a mere mortal to contemplate. I think JMH's still extant lap record was about 84mph (away from my sources, so cannot check exactly). Mind blowing.

[lil'chris]

Originally posted by Mal9444
The Dundrod circuit - all except the wonderfully visual Leathemstown Bridge with its left-and-right S, now completely by-passed - still exists and as previously noted is still used for two-wheel road racing. And one can still drive it the whole way round. The roads have barely changed since 1955. Even at the legal limit of 60mph (;) it requires considerable concentration to maintain a respectable average: the thought of doing it at up to 135 in a D-type or 300slr is well-nigh impossible for a mere mortal to contemplate. I think JMH's still extant lap record was about 84mph (away from my sources, so cannot check exactly). Mind blowing.

For some reason the course used these days also cuts out the original hairpin ,turning right shortly before the aforementioned and rejoining the old road nearer the Flowbog Crossroads.

[Barry Boor]

Ah! The Flowbog Crossroads.... how picturesque!