128 replies to this topic

[karlth]

Why is it that Jackie Stewart isn't mentioned in the same breath as Prost, Senna, Clark and Fangio. Occasionally you see his name crop up in a top 5 list but most of the time he isn't mentioned.

His career seems impressive enough.

[Mac Lark]

There's a chap called Moss I'd put in that top group too.

Top 5/Top 10 - who cares.

Jackie Stewart was one of the best of all time - no question.

Probably not quite as good as Senna/Clark/Moss/Fangio but hell, how do you measure it?

[Buford]

I think Stewart, Moss and Gurney too should always be mentioned with the all time best. Clark's father said Gurney was the only driver Jim feared. I also would put Mario Andretti and A.J. Foyt on that list.

[Globber2000]

Of the multiple world champions, you almost never hear of Lauda or Ascari either... perhaps they weren't as spectacular as the others... or didn't die at the top

[rgsuspsa]

In my book Jackie Stewart is the original "professional" driver in every sense.
He was during his career the best total package of driver skills, and has not been eclipsed
to date. The consumate example of self made excellence.

R. Sparks

[Wolf]

TNF Top 10 GP Drivers

[RX-7]

Excellent point! JYS will always be my first hero of Motorsports. After seeing him in 72(my first race) at the Glen. He is one of the great advocates of safety and IMHO one of the true Ambassadors of " The Gentlemans Sport". Not to mention that he is utterly indefatigable!(have you seen him moving around lately?) He just does not stop. I have always been and will continue to to be one of JYS's biggest fans. ****ing newbies have no respect for the greats! If anybody wants to get an idea of just how wonderful a driver Jackie was,check out a documentary called"JYS Weekend with a Champion", directed by Roman Polanski (the breakfast scene will make you a believer!)

[RX-7]

Originally posted by Globber2000
Of the multiple world champions, you almost never hear of Lauda or Ascari either... perhaps they weren't as spectacular as the others... or didn't die at the top

I don't know a single "Real F1 fan" who would not include those fellows in the top (especially Lauda) Awww ****!!! See what happens when you hit your 40's,?! You start getting that "crotchety nostlagic thing" going. Damn

[Bernd]

Personally I think JYS's safety crusade and perceived cowardice (unjustified) soured him for a lot of people. The taint is there to this day.

It's bollocks though JYS was as gutsy as any of them.

[biercemountain]

He was a great driver and a class act as a man. A true champion.

As a young boy in the seventies, I saw Jackie as THE FACE of Formula One in America.

[xflow7]

Well, at 29 and having only followed F1 for 10 years, I might be considered by some as a ****ing newbie. Nevertheless, the more I'm exposed to and the more I learn about Stewart the more impressed I am by him as an individual and as a driver. He seems to be a real class act in all respects. Same goes, for Dan Gurney actually.

[Don Capps]

Originally posted by karlth
Why is it that Jackie Stewart isn't mentioned in the same breath as Prost, Senna, Clark and Fangio. Occasionally you see his name crop up in a top 5 list but most of the time he isn't mentioned.

His career seems impressive enough.

Which is why Top N lists are dumber than snot.

Originally posted by Wolf
TNF Top 10 GP Drivers

A completely Unauthorized and Unofficial listing and in no way shape or form endorsed, acknowledged, recognized or even considered to exist by TNF.

[RX-7]

Originally posted by Bernd
Personally I think JYS's safety crusade and perceived cowardice (unjustified) soured him for a lot of people. The taint is there to this day.

It's bollocks though JYS was as gutsy as any of them.

Agreed! Unfair crappy propaganda! After his win at the Nurburgring (by 4 minutes!) Nobody should ever have dared breathed a word of discontent. So easy to judge ,when one does not make the same commitment.

I am reminded of an interview Jackie had with Hunt and Scheckter, Jackie asked Hunt:"Why did you decide to stop racing?" To which Hunt replied"The same reason as you. Self-preservation."

Hell! Why not? 27 wins 3 WDC's,he was statistically the best at the time of his retirement with a winning record that stood for another 10 years!How could you not respect that?

Jackie obviously had enough! Plenty of money, wife& 2 children work as an International businessman for Ford,Getty ,AFX etc. etc.In the time he was racing,sadly drivers died all to often. He made the right decision and I have personally respected him all the more for it.

Cheers Jackie!

[RX-7]

Originally posted by xflow7
Well, at 29 and having only followed F1 for 10 years, I might be considered by some as a ****ing newbie. Nevertheless, the more I'm exposed to and the more I learn about Stewart the more impressed I am by him as an individual and as a driver. He seems to be a real class act in all respects. Same goes, for Dan Gurney actually.

[canon1753]

If anyone doubts JYS, read Faster by JYS and Manso. For example, when they restarted the session that Rindt was killed, JYS went faster than he ever went before at Monza. Jochen was clearly Jackie's best friend. To be able to do that takes more guts than I can imagine.

JYS is one of the best in my book.

[RX-7]

Originally posted by canon1753
If anyone doubts JYS, read Faster by JYS and Manso. For example, when they restarted the session that Rindt was killed, JYS went faster than he ever went before at Monza. Jochen was clearly Jackie's best friend. To be able to do that takes more guts than I can imagine.

JYS is one of the best in my book.

More great Jackie stories!

[Gary Davies]

Don, am I seeing a note of irritation in your post above?

A short while ago at Pitpass, Mike Lawrence said: "Let's face it, the endless discussion of one driver over another, of one soccer club against another, is actually a game, it is a pub debate and it can be great fun."

That's all these, relatively meaningless, occasional debates ever become at TNF, a bit of gentle fun ... in contrast to assorted other motor racing fora where untold quantities of spleen are vented and keyboards subjected to severe punishment.

Or is TNF today too serious for some to while away a few minutes playing the "who was best" game?

[mctshirt]

Originally posted by karlth
Why is it that Jackie Stewart isn't mentioned in the same breath as Prost, Senna, Clark and Fangio. Occasionally you see his name crop up in a top 5 list but most of the time he isn't mentioned.

His career seems impressive enough.

Possibly the same reason you didn't mention 6 times World Champion herr Schumacher...he's just not a legend.

It occured to me during the weekend reading stuff about Senna during the weekend that 10 years on and despite multiple wins Michael Schumacher does not seem to be considered better than Senna. I even read one opinion that Schumacher caused Senna's death by pushing him too hard! It made me wonder what Michael has do to be considered better than Senna let alone make the status of Fangio, Moss and Clark? And why are those names considered the best...the legends if you like considering Stirling Moss's poor WDC record.

Having a good resume doesn't seem to necessarily equate with legend of motorsport.

[Gary Davies]

"... Stirling Moss's poor WDC record."

For me, the concept of a World Driver's Championship is a tad loopy. And any sense it did have ceased on the 19th of October 1958 in Casablanca. :

[Eric McLoughlin]

I agree with Don over the worthlessness of lists and "best of" polls. Of course they can be fun - but at the moment the media seems to be obsessed with "Top 100" listings in everything. They are therefore being done to death and I am quite tired of them.

As an example of a worthless poll, the weekend before last ITV ran a telephone text poll on who was the best F1 driver - but they only allowed you to vote for four - Clark, Fangio, Schumacher and Senna. The result was something like, Senna - 49*%, Schumacher - 43%, Clark - 3%, Fangio - 5%. Obviously, two factors affect such polls - the age of the voters and their ability to use texting technology. I'd bet hardly anyone over 40 voted.

Murray Walker was a guest and he was not amused. He asked why Stewart or Moss wern't on the list.

[Mac Lark]

A great satire/comedy was on the other night - featuring the delectable Ronni Ancona.

She was taking the mickey of the these 'top 100's' with intro lines like

'OK, we're down to the last 3 in the top 100 shapes of all time!'

and

'... the top 100 musical notes of all time'

etc etc

Pub talk, like Mike Lawrence/Vanwall say.

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by karlth
Why is it that Jackie Stewart isn't mentioned in the same breath as Prost, Senna, Clark and Fangio.

Eh????

By whom, pray???

Were they alive - awake - paying attention????

DCN

[mctshirt]

Originally posted by Vanwall
"... Stirling Moss's poor WDC record."

For me, the concept of a World Driver's Championship is a tad loopy. And any sense it did have ceased on the 19th of October 1958 in Casablanca. :

A poor choice of words perhaps....I just can't explain why to my (young and feeble) mind why I consider Clark, Moss and Fangio as legendary drivers and Michael Schumacher is simply a good driver...statistics don't seem to matter when your heart rules the mind. Stewart may fall in to the same category as Schumacher- both winners but just don't capture the imagination.

A simple test-would you like to think you drive as well as :
a) Fangio
b) Moss
c) Clark
d) Stewart
e) Schumacher

[RTH]

Typically ITV's polls or competitions are only ever about one thing - getting as many poor souls to ring their premium rate telephone line at a £1 a minute as they possibly can .

Such intellectual feats as

"Who was 1996 World Champion ?"

a. Benny Hill
b .Jimmy Hill
c. Damon Hill

I would really like to know if the' office of fair trading ' checks up to see if 'real' people ever win on these mindless phone in competitions

I think what always really impressed me about Jackie Stewart at the height of his powers was that he was in a select group who could still win even when they were not in the best car you have to be exceptional to do that.

[Eric McLoughlin]

Was it Benny Hill?

[lanciaman]

JYS had 27 wins in 99 starts for 3 WDCs.
That's a pretty impressive batting average.

I am a great fan of his, having had an opportunity to work with him. And I agree that he was the first modern professional driver with a sound business approach.

[SEdward]

Who ever said that Jackie Stewart was not one of the greatest? Ignorant overlanders, that's who.

I agree with a couple of previous posts. He is still alive and kicking, so he does not have the mystical aura of those who have passed away (especially in action). His safety crusade in the early 70s annoyed many people. The anecdote about practice at Monza in 1970 is, IMHO, especially moving. I don't know whether he was aware of Rindt's death at the time, but to immediately go out and set fastest lap is a remarkable achievement and a sign of immense courage and fortitude.

For me, he remains one of the greatest ever.

BTW, what is he up to now? He seems to have disappeared. Something to do with his son Paul, perhaps?

Edward.

[Garagiste]

He's still involved with Jaguar in some capacity, and pops up in the paddock from time to time.
Although the learned posters in this forum will rightly regard JYS as one of the best ever, I agree with Karlth that it seems he doesn't always get the recognition he deserves.
As well as the good reasons given above I think that like Prost, (who features more often, but not always - that itv text poll being an example) he just made it look too easy, so lacked the appeal of a Gilles or a Ronnie.
Another 3 times WDC that never seems to be on the Radar is Piquet, but I suppose that's another thread.

[Don Capps]

Originally posted by Vanwall
Don, am I seeing a note of irritation in your post above?

A short while ago at Pitpass, Mike Lawrence said: "Let's face it, the endless discussion of one driver over another, of one soccer club against another, is actually a game, it is a pub debate and it can be great fun."

That's all these, relatively meaningless, occasional debates ever become at TNF, a bit of gentle fun ... in contrast to assorted other motor racing fora where untold quantities of spleen are vented and keyboards subjected to severe punishment.

Or is TNF today too serious for some to while away a few minutes playing the "who was best" game?

No, it is really exasperation mixed with the mistaken idea that TNF would actually endorse such a thing.

The discussions on such notions are often very, very useful to those whose interests in motor racing history have only been recently aroused. It does provide a way to good way to introduce names to those whose knowledge of of this subject is growing so there is a great benefit to these duscussions.

Since these discussions on TNF are handled, almost without fail, at exactly the level Mike Lawrence mentions they serve a good purpose and I have not a problem with them since they can be great fun and quite informative. Indeed, many have been quite pleasant and enjoyable.

However, that does not alter my personal stance on the whole Top N nonsense even though it is basically unavoidable in these sorts of circumstances.

[Darren Galpin]

Originally posted by Eric McLoughlin
Was it Benny Hill?

In his Milkcart-Electric 001? The fastest in the West it was.........

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by Don Capps


Which is why Top N lists are dumber than snot.

Which only emphasises the question, why in these lists is someone like JYS overlooked? Ive got the same thing with Piquet. Everytime I see him listed as a 3-time WC I go "oh...he was wasnt he"

And its not like JYS was some low-profile driver that the public never really were aware how good he was, he was quite the star, so his omission is somewhat peculiar.

[Don Capps]

The omissions from such Top N lists, as Ross implies, often says more than those included. And, yes, the frequent exclusion of JYS is a matter that makes one pause....

[Ross Stonefeld]

The ironic thing is if I put together my own Top 5/Top 10 I wouldnt have done it by ability/speed/results but their aftermath, and imo Stewart, Senna, and now Schumacher really changed the perception of what a complete racing driver could be. I dont want to get into the whole ethics debate, but what I mean is they took what was at the time the average GP driver, and made him look somewhat...average.

I only include those 3 because prior to the Stewart era my ability to analyse pro road racing decreases exponentially with each earlier year

[Mallory Dan]

The way I think is that Piquet was dead lucky in 1981, cheated in 83, and even luckier in 87. By contrast JYS largely dominated each of his years, as did Senna, and TGF more recently. If anything I thought Piquet was quicker in 80 and 84, so maybe these things even out in the end.

[Doug Nye]

Ross is - I think - spot on. Since the resumption of racing after World War 2 the only frontline drivers by whom others almost equally worthy measured their own performance have been - in order - Wimille, Ascari, Fangio, Moss, Clark, Stewart, Peterson, Lauda, Prost, Senna and Schumacher. Only 11 drivers spanning almost 60 years now. Against these standard-setters nobody else counts...

DCN

[D-Type]

Doug,

I agree with your selection - they all qualify as being "the man to beat". But I would add Andretti to make it a round dozen.

[lanciaman]

Wimille rather than Nuvolari?

[HEROS]

With 99 GP's for 27 victories, statistically that means 1 victory all the 3,67 races; it is
not a bad result.

Stewart worked much for safety on the circuits, and for this reason he was also a
great man. When he stopped races, he was 34 and if its career had continued,
he could hope to egalize the record of Fangio, why not ?

Also, he must appear among the greatest, even if one too often quotes Fangio, Clark,
Lauda, Senna, Prost and now Schumacher.

What to think of Brabham or Piquet, too often forgotten ?

[Wolf]

Originally posted by Don Capps

A completely Unauthorized and Unofficial listing and in no way shape or form endorsed, acknowledged, recognized or even considered to exist by TNF.

It is fairly obvious that I have posted that link to show how many TNF members hold JYS in highest regard. Nevertheless, if anyone feels offended by the title and content of that thread, and obviously does, and if that thread indeed deserves such vehement and comprehensive disclaimer (if not disowning, and refutation) in such large and bold letters, I would be very obliged (in fact, I shall insist) that offensive thread in question be entirely deleted.

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by D-Type
Doug,

I agree with your selection - they all qualify as being "the man to beat". But I would add Andretti to make it a round dozen.

Personally, I would not...

DCN

[Macca]

per DCN

Since the resumption of racing after World War 2 the only frontline drivers by whom others almost equally worthy measured their own performance have been - in order - Wimille, Ascari, Fangio, Moss, Clark, Stewart, Peterson, Lauda, Prost, Senna and Schumacher.

The only thing is that I would say Gilles Villeneuve was a man other drivers looked at for sheer speed, but I don't feel Lauda was.


PWM

[John B]

Probably some of the win stats run up in recent years (which I'm not arguing proves any were necessarly better than JYS) by Schumacher, Prost, and Senna means JYS gets less recognition than say in the 1980s, when he held the win record, and drivers like Gilles Villeneuve and Prost were talking about that being an ultimate goal for them to beat.

[catfigs]

look, i don't know anywhere near as much as you guys do but i've been reading about formula one, history, drivers and bene reading this forum for a long long time now, anddddd....god, why am i even posting, i can't add anything very wonderful, but don capps seemed to put it all out about right, if there is such a thing as right inthis. it's one of those things that's prett yimpossible to make a list out of. it's like making a list of classic albums. you can make arguments for a whole range of nutty inclusions. on different days you'd have a whole different list. even when you get really strict and make the criteria really stable and nix all your personal favorites and try and boil it right down there's still all this give in take. same with literature. you go back and forward. it's probably because the best of anything has incredible heights in different areas that are the total absolute pinnacle of acheivement. over an album, or a book, there are troughs and dips and heights. in hamlet there are the sublime moments, then there are the little lighter parts, in an album there are the moments of total genius, then songs that are wonderful but not quite as astonishing, then the filler here and there, it's all shifting, like a desert.
with a person it's similar. a career is like that as well, it's shifts and goes back and forward. if you made a list of the ten greatest pop folk style songwriters bob dylan would be pretty much onth etop of most people's lists, but then he's made all these weak albums in the seventies and eighties, whereas others haven't reached those levels he did but have been much more consistent...
okay, where thehell is this going? hmmm...
i suppose if there is a list it probably shouldn't have numbers beside the names, if you're serious about it. should be a collection of names of great drivers who did great thigns and who dominated their eras.there's always a lot of talk about the daredevil driver who was on another level but died too young and so on and there's a place for that and i love reading about it and sponge it up, but the great champions often for me go a bit beyond that, mature, often become less loved by the punters at the track because they go about their business as professionals andget the job done and so on. i guess they all have their own ways of doing this that make them unique.
i guess my point, at the end of this rather long winded and possibly completely rubbish post, is that it's so limiting putting numbers beside these guys, it's kind of foolhardy and misleading and it makes it look like there's some final word on all this, and there really isn't. it's an unmeasurable thing. you can't get to the bottom of it. you can have hunches about who you think was the best but you can't ever really know.
i remember reading books and stories and accounts of the 89 season and it made it sound like senna blew prost away 100 per cent, but watching the season review that really wasn't the case at all. here and there he did but prost was no slouch and was strong inways senna wasn't at different times.
i guess all of these guys were pretty great and adapted to their respective formulas better than any oftheir opponents and dominated at different times. maybe a roll of honour with no numbers, just names is the best approach.
but getting back to bob dylan for a minute...

[lukywill]

i think there's a reason.

senna and clak died. fangio is fangio.
prost is very recent past, schumacher is very recent future.

what about brambilla?!

[Don Capps]

catfigs pretty hits the mark. All this is a moveable feast, a moving target. Stir in the wisdom of Greg "Pappy" Boyington -- "Show me hero, and I'll show you a bum..." -- and it becomes evident that we place drivers into tiers perhaps a bit more instinctively than in 1-N lists. For instance, those that DCN names easily fall into the sorts I would place in my top tier. Expanding from the focus on strictly GP/F1, others would be added, of course. But, while we might hee-and-haw about the Top N, certain folks just seem to gravitate towards their tiers almost without much thought.

As for "Bob Dylan," taking a hard at him look after reading [b[Positively 4th Street[/b] is not to look upon the same person we thought we knew in 1963 or 1966....

[Don Capps]

Originally posted by Wolf
It is fairly obvious that I have posted that link to show how many TNF members hold JYS in highest regard. Nevertheless, if anyone feels offended by the title and content of that thread, and obviously does, and if that thread indeed deserves such vehement and comprehensive disclaimer (if not disowning, and refutation) in such large and bold letters, I would be very obliged (in fact, I shall insist) that offensive thread in question be entirely deleted.

Nah, the thread was a well-intended and a nice discussion of the sort that one would expect of the person who started it and those who participated in it. I could have changed the title ages ago, but simply didn't. I just wanted to emphasize that it is unofficial and strictly pub room stuff.

Don't worry about it. I think we can easily live with it, and if we can't -- we will anyway....

[panzani]

In my top N list (where N>=5±1) - should it be done one day - Sir John Young Stewart has his guaranteed place, no doubt about it.

[masterhit]

I'd put Brabham up there too, winning a title with a team bearing his own name is some achievement.

But then Ascari, Nuvolari, Rosemeyer and so on fall on deaf ears with some!

[lanciaman]

I was thumbing through Manso's book on JYS, "Faster," and it is apparent that Jackie realized there is a life beyond driving. His passage on how Piers Courage death effected him and the grief that Helen felt, especially as she was the one to tell Sally Courage of her husband's death, is moving and reflective. I think Stewart thought on his mortality more than many and this introspection encouraged his retirement from driving. And maybe that has somehow, illogically, diminished his stature with those who feel he should have continued risking everything.

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by Macca
per DCN - The only thing is that I would say Gilles Villeneuve was a man other drivers looked at for sheer speed, but I don't feel Lauda was. PWM

Quite right - but the best regarded Villeneuve privately as being a nutcase - not an attitude found with regard to the other 11 I listed...not even Peterson, who perhaps came closest to being so regarded.

In my experience Jochen Rindt was more respected by his peers than was Gilles Villeneuve - yet Jochen fell short of qualifying as 'the standard setter of his time' merely because JC and JYS were around to bump him out of it.

Reigning as 'The Man' is an unforgiving business - that absolute top drawer really isn't very big at all, and very, very few ever qualify for a place there...

DCN