128 replies to this topic

[JtP]

Originally posted by SEdward
"apart from Monza 65, JYS never had a head to head race"... against Clark.

Not sure what this means. They were both driving in F1 between 1965 and Clark's death.

Edward.

Although Stewart drove in F1 from the end of 64, winning his first race in a F1 car in Clark's Lotus 33, the Rand GP 64. Stewart finished second a few times to Clark during 65, but only at Monza was JYS genuinely in a race for the lead with Clark and Stewart won after Clark's retirement. On every other occasion before or after, for various reasons they never had a race for the lead. Either one or the other had a poor car, sometimes both in 66, or an early retirement. The only other time they ever had competitive races together, was a Tasman series and I can't remember which one off hand, either 65/66 or 66/67.

[rdrcr]

Originally posted by karlth
Why is it that Jackie Stewart isn't mentioned in the same breath as Prost, Senna, Clark and Fangio. Occasionally you see his name crop up in a top 5 list but most of the time he isn't mentioned.

His career seems impressive enough.

As we've seen around here and in that "other" thread... he is. Lots of people are fixated on F1 exclusively as the.... ahem.... "pinnacle".

I'm more for the all round racers like Stewart who's company includes others like Gurney, Foyt, Andretti, Ickx, well you get the idea... lots of truly great all-round drivers out there that don't get a notice.

I think that because Stewart was so smooth and forgive the term, uneventful, in his driving. He just made it look so easy - though the competition he won against was some of the fiercest in F1

[brooster51]

I don't think you can come up with a comprehensive list that would be THE BEST FIVE. Or ten for that matter. I think there are some, JS and SM amongst them, who you just have to say are in a class of their own. Aryton Senna, Fangio, Michael Schumacher, Jim Clark, and Alain Prost also. Ronnie Peterson, Jochen Rindt, and a few others could also come to mind. What about John Surtees -- granted he sent himself off into the netherworld when he split from Ferrari. He's not often mentioned, but he proved himself over a limited number of seasons with first class cars not to forget his bike championships. Are they in the class of Senna, Stewart, et al, I'd not one to be the one to argue one way or the other. I think they were all greats.

[David Hyland]

Originally posted by Don Capps
David, Time Out Corner and all 253 verses of Kumbaya for not being Nice....

Hey, I'm Nice - I'm even Hellé-Nice!!

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by JtP
.....The only other time they ever had competitive races together, was a Tasman series and I can't remember which one off hand, either 65/66 or 66/67.

Well, it wasn't the 1965 series, as Jackie wasn't there... and in 1966 Jackie and Graham Hill had more or less dominant cars as Clark soldiered on with the 39 powered by FPF.

1967, however, they came together... Climax having turned out a 2-litre version of the FWMV to slot into the 33.

[Hank the Deuce]

IMHO, the standard habit of promoting the current or new era as being "the greatest ever", and conveniently discarding what has gone before, is as much to blame for overlooking any number of greats in contemporary "best" lists as anything else.

When you look past the hype of something new and exciting, the facts tend to defend themselves. JYS's record of 27 GP victories went unmatched until Prost in 1986 IIRC, and then... when was Prost eclipsed? I had lost interest in the whole thing by then, but it didn't take all that long in comparison. When I first familiarised myself with the F1 circus (circa 1984), Jackie's name was writ large as one of the greats, probably due to the most victories ever, but the hype surrounding the latter-day "heroes" shoved him and his ilk (rather rudely I thought) into a dusty corner... until I found this place!

[JtP]

Originally posted by Ray Bell


Well, it wasn't the 1965 series, as Jackie wasn't there... and in 1966 Jackie and Graham Hill had more or less dominant cars as Clark soldiered on with the 39 powered by FPF.

1967, however, they came together... Climax having turned out a 2-litre version of the FWMV to slot into the 33.

Thanks Ray, my memory is obviously failing me and I couldn't work out the year, but as you say it was definately the Clark with 2lt Climax vs Stewart with the 2 lt BRM series.

Question time now, which of Clark/Stewart won the "down under" clay pidgeon competition between them?

[Vrba]

My selection would read Fangio, Prost, Clark, Stewart, Lauda, Schumacher (in no particular order), there's really no place for anybody else in their company (disclaimer: I was referring to 1950 to present time era). Therefore, I don't care whether anyone mentions Stewart or not. His place is there and there's no doubt about it.

Hrvoje

[catfigs]

Originally posted by Hank the Deuce

JYS's record of 27 GP victories went unmatched until Prost in 1986 IIRC

lodged in my anarok eighties memory, from the days when i would pore over nigel roebuck's year books delighted and eat all the race reports up...although i remember the race too.
estoril 1987. berger was leading and about to break the ferrari drought but spun near the end. prost went through to take the record. amazing to think how thouroughly that records been beaten since. by mansell even. of course more races and so on but yeah.

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by Vrba
I don't care whether anyone mentions Stewart or not. His place is there and there's no doubt about it... Hrvoje

Exactly right. For this reason I find the title of this thread almost offensively misleading....

Anyone who doesn't consider JYS to have been "one of the greats" simply hasn't been paying attention.... Like the wee Scot or loathe him, his place in motor racing history is NOT a matter of opinion, it's a matter of absolute fact.

DCN

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
I find the title of this thread almost offensively misleading....

DCN

Ah, but it made you look! Yes, it is misleading, but there's the unspoken bit too:

Why isn't Jackie Stewart considered on of the greats by the great unwashed?

Similar conundra ... the bit in bold can be adapted and appended to:

Why did Fangio cheat Peter Collins out of a win and world title?
Who is this old f*** Moss anyway?
If Jim Clark was so good, why was he only World Champion twice?

etc etc

[Don Capps]

Originally posted by Ian Stewart
I think any inference that Jackie's safety campaign indicated a lack of courage on his part is utterly disgraceful, and thankfully everyone here is well enough informed to view that opinion with the contempt it deserves. Jackie had the wit to recognise the dangers a very long time before he retired, and never let thoughts of personal safety diminish his sheer enjoyment of racing.

Banal as it may sound, he is a very nice man - solid gold - and his successors in F1 have much to thank him for. I am astonished that he should have become 'low-profile', particularly with his recent prominence in the fight for Silverstone against almost impossible odds.

It is almost as if the modern enthusiast fails to make the connection between that Stewart and the Stewart who was such a brilliant World Champion.

I think that Ian may have a point that I never really gave much thought to, but....

One of the aspects of Stewart that seems generally overlooked is that he was really that transtion figure between What Was and What Is in the GP/F1 world and set the standard for those in many other series as well. He was the one of the great influences in how drivers and those within the top tier series began to look at both the sport and themselves.

The more I think about all this the more mystifying the relative obscurity of Stewart becomes.....

Personally, I have always thought Very Highly of JYS. My personal opinion of JYS was confirmed when he took the time for a short interview at the 1971 Road Atlanta Can-Am. What a nice man, is the thought I still remember from that meeting -- he did not rush through it and he later stopped for another chat on Sunday as I was working the pits and the paddock for information and quotes. A very nice man.

[Eric McLoughlin]

I think you've hit it on the head Don. The very fact that he is still around actively involved in modern F1 makes him a major transitional figure - spanning the end of the "amateurish" pre-sponsorship/corporate era and the modern highly professional and commercial era. And he flourished in both.

To many, especially the under 40s, the chap wandering around the pits in his lurid tartan pants bears no relation to the fast, clinically accurate, smooth and fantastically successful racing driver he was to an earlier generation.

And, of course, he didn't die. If he had not survived his motor racing career, I wager a few bets that he would be up there with Clark and Senna as an "all time great". As the man said, the best way to achieve immortality is to die.

[SEdward]

Why has this thread become bogged down by the all too frequent "lists of lists" syndrome?

I think that a discussion of Stewart's career and the lasting effect that he had on the sport is worthwhile.

I maintain that he was one of the best ever, like or loathe his safety crusade. I feel that the gap left by his retirement in 1973 was never really filled until Prost rose to prominence in 82-83. And even then, Alain did not have the off-track influence or authority that Jackie had.

Fittipaldi, Lauda and other 70s stars were simply not in the same league.

Edward.

[Lutz G]

Originally posted by MichaelJP

For me, I could understand his premature retirement given the mortality rate of the time and the shock of Cevert's death, but what I could never understand was that he never seemed to have the slightest interest of racing anything ever again after that. Or even to do demonstration drives at places like Goodwood...

- Michael

In 1978 Sir Jackie was working for US-TV commentating F1. He did demo laps in the
Tyrrell 008 at Monaco or Brands for example - commentating from the cockpit -
great stuff! He still is into racing - but in a different way...

BTW: I love his tv special (filmed in 1988/89) "Jackie Stewart's
World of Speed" (shown on MotorsTV a few month ago)

He drove:

1989 Williams FW12 Renault at Paul Ricard
1988 Renault R21 Turbo French Touring car at Mangy-Cours
1988 March 881 Judd at Silverstone
1988 Peugeot 405 Turbo Dakar (had a big shunt)
1987 Benetton B187 Ford Turbo at Oulton Park
1988 Jaguar XJR-9 at Silverstone (big shunt too)
1988 Lotus 100T Honda Turbo at Snetterton
1988 Penske PC17 Indycar at Mid-Ohio

Not a man without the slightest interest of racing anything imo.

Originally posted by Doug Nye


Exactly right. For this reason I find the title of this thread almost offensively misleading....

Anyone who doesn't consider JYS to have been "one of the greats" simply hasn't been paying attention.... Like the wee Scot or loathe him, his place in motor racing history is NOT a matter of opinion, it's a matter of absolute fact.

DCN

Lutz

[MichaelJP]

Originally posted by Lutz G

In 1978 Sir Jackie was working for US-TV commentating F1. He did demo laps in the
Tyrrell 008 at Monaco or Brands for example - commentating from the cockpit -
great stuff! He still is into racing - but in a different way...

BTW: I love his tv special (filmed in 1988/89) "Jackie Stewart's
World of Speed" (shown on MotorsTV a few month ago)

He drove:

1989 Williams FW12 Renault at Paul Ricard
1988 Renault R21 Turbo French Touring car at Mangy-Cours
1988 March 881 Judd at Silverstone
1988 Peugeot 405 Turbo Dakar (had a big shunt)
1987 Benetton B187 Ford Turbo at Oulton Park
1988 Jaguar XJR-9 at Silverstone (big shunt too)
1988 Lotus 100T Honda Turbo at Snetterton
1988 Penske PC17 Indycar at Mid-Ohio

Not a man without the slightest interest of racing anything imo.

Lutz

Oh yes, I'd forgotten that World of Speed thing - I only caught one on Motors TV, it was the one at Mid-Ohio. Wish I'd seen the others.

Would be a nice idea for someone like Martin Brundle to remake it with more up-to-date cars. It would certainly be more interesting than commentating on current F1:)

- Michael

[Don Capps]

Why has this thread become bogged down by the all too frequent "lists of lists" syndrome?

In this case, the actual topic seems to be the "lists of lists syndrone" as much as any of JYS's merits. Besides, the List of Lists Syndrone seems to hit a nerve with more than a few here.

[masterhit]

Originally posted by Don Capps


In this case, the actual topic seems to be the "lists of lists syndrone" as much as any of JYS's merits. Besides, the List of Lists Syndrone seems to hit a nerve with more than a few here.

Everything in life is subjective by its very nature unless I'm missing something fundamental in the manner that the universe operates. Whether it is microcosm or macrocosm, it is still perceived information.

[mctshirt]

Originally posted by Vitesse2


Ah, but it made you look! Yes, it is misleading, but there's the unspoken bit too:

Why isn't Jackie Stewart considered on of the greats by the great unwashed?

Similar conundra ... the bit in bold can be adapted and appended to:

Why did Fangio cheat Peter Collins out of a win and world title?
Who is this old f*** Moss anyway?
If Jim Clark was so good, why was he only World Champion twice?

etc etc

I think this is all part of the mystery...as a fully paid up member of the great unwashed when I think of Stewart it's all funny hats and pants...and he won a lot of races. End of story. I'm not disputing he was a great driver or his success. He's not all that interesting to me in the same way Schumacher isn't (and he's won a couple). Think Pete Sampras and tennis.

Stewart is however head and shoulders above Schumacher as I believe Stewart was a fair sportsman and a gentleman and however many races Schumacher wins there is always my memory of the Australian Grand Prix when Schumacher displayed his win-at-all-cost attitude to Damon Hill.

One thought that struck me is perhaps on some level people blame Stewart and his professional attitude which began the transition to todays Bernie Ecclestone Travelling Circus? What happened between the fun holiday atmosphere of the Tasman Series era and the launch control and auto gearboxes of last year?

I wasn't aware of his safety crusade but that's why I like the Nostalgia Forum for bringing to my attention bits of the past by people who were there which leads me off to find out what they're on about. It is a great place to really learn about the real lfe side of the top echelons of motorsport. I thank you all!

The members of this forum will never agree on an definitive list because just as there was drivers on different tiers...so there is in TNF...those who drove, those on the team, in the paddock, watching from the stands or at home, reading a newspaper or magazine report or reading a book...everyone has a different perception depending on their level of involvement so it is a bit futile but lots of fun!

[masterhit]

Originally posted by mctshirt


I think this is all part of the mystery...as a fully paid up member of the great unwashed when I think of Stewart it's all funny hats and pants...and he won a lot of races. End of story. I'm not disputing he was a great driver or his success. He's not all that interesting to me in the same way Schumacher isn't (and he's won a couple). Think Pete Sampras and tennis.

Stewart is however head and shoulders above Schumacher as I believe Stewart was a fair sportsman and a gentleman and however many races Schumacher wins there is always my memory of the Australian Grand Prix when Schumacher displayed his win-at-all-cost attitude to Damon Hill.

One thought that struck me is perhaps on some level people blame Stewart and his professional attitude which began the transition to todays Bernie Ecclestone Travelling Circus? What happened between the fun holiday atmosphere of the Tasman Series era and the launch control and auto gearboxes of last year?

I wasn't aware of his safety crusade but that's why I like the Nostalgia Forum for bringing to my attention bits of the past by people who were there which leads me off to find out what they're on about. It is a great place to really learn about the real lfe side of the top echelons of motorsport. I thank you all!

The members of this forum will never agree on an definitive list because just as there was drivers on different tiers...so there is in TNF...those who drove, those on the team, in the paddock, watching from the stands or at home, reading a newspaper or magazine report or reading a book...everyone has a different perception depending on their level of involvement so it is a bit futile but lots of fun!

I agree wholeheartedly with the last sentence.

So long as list making isn't taken too seriously it is good fun, and ultimately everyone does so in the silence of their own homes, even though we feel it is futile, it is natural to have value systems and to prioritise and filter information.

As for the topic title, it is certainly a relevant question, a good question and one that covers a lot of ground. It is ground covered before, but that is the very definition of nostalgia. In some ways it is almost a rhetorical question, but one filled with genuine emotion.

And I'm especially glad that we have knowledgable people willing to inform us despite our so-called 'dumb questions' of innocence!

[rgsuspsa]

Jackie Stewart is not simply a great driver, he is for me the standard by which all other drivers
are measured. In a manner which few other drivers have demonstrated, Jackie personifies
those qualities of humans attempting to conduct themselves with excellence and grace,
no matter their profession. Potential for excellence as humans resides within most of us,
Jackie transforms that potential to reality, an example to be emulated.

R. Sparks

[angst]

Jackie Stewart is one of the greats of Grand Prix racing, no question. I think one of the reasons the great unwashed do not regularly include him is probably to do with the general disregard that history is held in, in any field.
Grand Prix racing, as with any other facet of life, can only really be understood (in my opinion anyway) by understanding it's history. Modern F1 I have difficulty understanding at all, I have to say.
My list of greats is frankly huge, and constantly expanding and I will argue for any of them - I also agree with Don that the obsession with GP/F1 as the only measurement of greatness is very narrow.
Now onto Mario Andretti. Even if you only count his GP career I would put him down as a great. Pole pstion in his first GP(as already mentioned). His first win came within his first 15 GP starts (from memory I don't know exactly how many). He turned Lotus round from being also rans to winners at the end of `76. Were it not for massive reliabilty problems he would have easily won WDC in`77, and did so in`78. I think there is a misapprehension from `78 that Peterson could have walked the championship had he not been number 2 to Andretti. Much as Peterson is another of my favourites I don't go along with that line of thought, Andretti beat Peterson fair and square on a number of occasions. Is it because Andretti was involved in other forms of motor racing (paricularly US racing which does seem suffer from bias from some European based commentators - something I suffer from myself).
If you then factor in his successes outside of F1, and he carried on for a long time, then others on these lists begin to






look pretty bland.

These lists are meaningless, but they are fun, and informative. I shall certainly be finding out more about those earlier drivers (especially the one who drove the 'race of the century'

[lanciaman]

Originally posted by rgsuspsa
Jackie Stewart is not simply a great driver, he is for me the standard by which all other drivers
are measured. In a manner which few other drivers have demonstrated, Jackie personifies
those qualities of humans attempting to conduct themselves with excellence and grace,
no matter their profession. Potential for excellence as humans resides within most of us,
Jackie transforms that potential to reality, an example to be emulated.

R. Sparks

Very well said indeed.

And does this criteria explain why James Hunt gets little notice here?

[RX-7]

Originally posted by rgsuspsa
Jackie Stewart is not simply a great driver, he is for me the standard by which all other drivers
are measured. In a manner which few other drivers have demonstrated, Jackie personifies
those qualities of humans attempting to conduct themselves with excellence and grace,
no matter their profession. Potential for excellence as humans resides within most of us,
Jackie transforms that potential to reality, an example to be emulated.

R. Sparks

Fantastic! Well said.

[caneparo]

I'd say Jackie is the best driver ever. Jackie Stewart meant the Formula 1 for several years. Jackie was great in each single ability that a F1 driver needs to reach the top. I'm sorry to read that he's not mentioned a top driver (by who?), I'd put him at first place in my list. Simply the best
Goodbye
Antonio

[RX-7]

Originally posted by caneparo
I'd say Jackie is the best driver ever. Jackie Stewart meant the Formula 1 for several years. Jackie was great in each single ability that a F1 driver needs to reach the top. I'm sorry to read that he's not mentioned a top driver (by who?), I'd put him at first place in my list. Simply the best
Goodbye
Antonio

I'll tell you by whom, some" chump" who has no respect for the history of F1!

[Macca]

I totally agree that JYS was one of the all-time greats, and has done a huge amount for the sport in many ways since retiring.

But.

I can't help always remembering two stories about him - one from the early part of his career where he was talking to Innes Ireland and asking him how much money to ask for various drives, to which Ireland replied that he hadn't got a clue, laddie, because he'd never asked for a fee for driving in his life.

The other is about how he was supposed to be going to Ferrari for 1968 until Ken Tyrrell came up with £20k from Dunlop/Elf/Ford plus Matra chassis and DFVs; but when JYS went to the Ferrari factory he just kept talking about money, which put Enzo off him so he signed Ickx instead.



PWM

[lanciaman]

Originally posted by Macca
I totally agree that JYS was one of the all-time greats, and has done a huge amount for the sport in many ways since retiring.

But.

I can't help always remembering two stories about him - one from the early part of his career where he was talking to Innes Ireland and asking him how much money to ask for various drives, to which Ireland replied that he hadn't got a clue, laddie, because he'd never asked for a fee for driving in his life.

The other is about how he was supposed to be going to Ferrari for 1968 until Ken Tyrrell came up with £20k from Dunlop/Elf/Ford plus Matra chassis and DFVs; but when JYS went to the Ferrari factory he just kept talking about money, which put Enzo off him so he signed Ickx instead.



PWM

As racing became more of a business, it became time to pay the drivers something more in keeping with their value. Maybe Ken T. saw it was time to actually reward the fellows with something more than the honor of driving. Apparently Lauda learnt his lessons from Jackie, though, and got keener about earning a buck.

Wanting to get paid for services is something JYS did well and it was about time, too. I guess you are exploited only when the grin fades, but cannot it be said that Enzo took advantage of the grin?

[mctshirt]

Originally posted by Macca
The other is about how he was supposed to be going to Ferrari for 1968 until Ken Tyrrell came up with £20k from Dunlop/Elf/Ford plus Matra chassis and DFVs; but when JYS went to the Ferrari factory he just kept talking about money, which put Enzo off him so he signed Ickx instead.

From an article by Rob Walker in Road & Track August 1999 about privateers:

"Ken told me that when Stewart joined his F1 team in 1968, Jackie wanted 20,000 pounds. Ken had nothing near that, but Walter Hayes of Ford guaranteed him the money. Later Dunlop came through with a retainer of 80,000 pounds."