15 replies to this topic

[tripleM]

Is the aero that much different between the teams that there is really not a need to draft to pass?
And with no1 in front of you to block the air, why does the prevailing F1 wisdom say that it's much cleaner to run in?

[Ross Stonefeld]

They dont spend enough time on the straights for the slipstream to play out. The only track where you really saw it was the older Hockenheim, and to a lesser extent Monza.

[Jhope]

And Indy, and Canada. Other than that, the only places we see slipstreaming to a lesser extent is Magny Cours and Barcelona.

[Croaky]

Like Ross said, plus they're further back at the start of the straight 'cos aero is so important through the corners, they just drop back so far in the dirty air of the car in front that they're not close enough to draft down the straight.

[MrAerodynamicist]

The efficiency of a modern F1 car also means that the effect of drafting isn't quite as strong as when the cars were more like barn doors.

[onepablo]

Also, contemporary F1 cars are so aerodynamically sensitive that they tend to lose downforce when running in the "dirty" air behind another car. This is probably not an issue on straights, but is likely to have an effect when running through high speed corners.
OT, but I remember Matchett on speed commenting about the detrimental effects of running behind another car for long periods of time, especially on brake disk temps.

[onepablo]

Doh! I just noticed Croaky's post. Sorry all.

[Croaky]

No problem, Pablo, I didn't mention the cooling issues which you rightly pointed out.

[eoin]

Originally posted by tripleM
Is the aero that much different between the teams that there is really not a need to draft to pass?
And with no1 in front of you to block the air, why does the prevailing F1 wisdom say that it's much cleaner to run in?

Sorta repeating what others have said.

Clean air is undistrubed air. Distrubed air helps slipstreaming, but F1 cars don't distrube the air as much as in other forms of motorsport. This makes it very hard to get any tow, unless you are right on their gearbox. However that is where the problem lies. F1 cars are designed to create massive amounts of downforce, but are very sensitive. In medium to high speed corners, where downforce is most useful, any distrubence in the air will cause a car to lose grip, and hence time. So unless there is a slow corner followed by a long straight overtaking rare, as car have to hang back to keep the car stable.

[Greg Locock]

" F1 cars don't distrube the air as much as in other forms of motorsport. "

I'm trying to wrap my head around this point of view and failing dismally.

An F1 car is punching a 700 hp hole in the air. This is a damn sight more than most racing series.

If the following car is accelerating (vectorially) at less than 1 g (say) then it doesn't really need downforce, so it should be able to make use of the hole in the air. Shirley the point is that it is hard to remain in contact during the accel and decel phases of a given straight, therefore the chances of being in, and staying in, the slipstream are much reduced.

[bigbrickz]

Which changes to the aero rules could bring slipstreaming back?

[rodlamas]

The only other place we´ll be able to see slipstreaming this year besides Canada, Indy and Monza is Spa........

Spa is back!

Just to say I´m listening to "Simply the Best" by Tina Turner and that gives me memories about the man who was simply the best.....

Ayrton Senna......

10 years without him......

If we could just turn back time

[Ross Stonefeld]

alternately we could stop mentioning him at every opportunity

[MrAerodynamicist]

Originally posted by Greg Locock
" F1 cars don't distrube the air as much as in other forms of motorsport. "

I'm trying to wrap my head around this point of view and failing dismally.

An F1 car is punching a 700 hp hole in the air. This is a damn sight more than most racing series.

How much tow a car gives off with depend on the shape and size of the car, rather than the size of the engine. F1 designers put a lot of work in to making the car cut though the air cleanly. Unless it's doing the more important function of downforce crearion, everything down to the suspension arms are designed to reduce the amount of turbulent flow. Tyres are a massive source of turbulent air, yet F1 runs tyres that have a smaller frontal area than say CART or IRL.

Now compare an F1 car to a touring car. Now they have massive frontal areas and very blunt ends...

[Greg Locock]

That'd be 700 hp out of 850 hp going to aero at top speeds (WAG). Almost all of that 700 hp is going into drag, whether it be skin friction drag or creation of vortices etc due to lift. The net work being done by the lift component is virtually zero (force times distance in the direction of the force), therefore almost all of the power going into the air is going into creating assorted rubbish in the downstream air path. Some of that will be heat, which is of little use to the car following, but the vast majority of it would be in macroscopic disturbances of the air.

[MrAerodynamicist]

True, an F1 car at 200mph will create more turbulance than some single seater that tops out at 140. But I think it holds for a comparison to say a NASCAR or CART/IRL at similar speeds (or indeed old F1 where FIA rule tinkering has meant that there hasn't been a massive change in peak speeds).