50 replies to this topic

[Dennis Hockenbury]

In reading Michael Oliver’s very enjoyable “Lotus 72”, it seems that several of the later chassis numbers were painted using a color closer to yellow than gold or beige.

The only 72 that I have seen personally was in the GLTL livery, thus I have no first hand experience of the JPS scheme as used on the 72’s. I have seen examples of the 79 and the “gold” was a flat beige buff color. I was told that this was used, as it appeared gold on the color film of the day.

Does anyone have any information on the specifics of the “gold” color used on the 72’s to 79’s?

[DOHC]

Remembering colours is perhaps a bit difficult, but my view is the similar to yours. The pictures of the present day 72s have a much lighter gold than during the heydays.

My own pictures from the 1973 and 1974 seasons also show what I would describe as a richer gold colour, in agreement with pictures in the press from those days. I also remember the cars that way -- with a rich gold.

Last time I saw a 72, however (the 72/9 in the summer of 2003), I didn't quite get the impression of the rather flat yellow colour you see in the book. It was more like the JPS colours that I remember, but I really can't be sure. That car was also on display indoors, with the light dominated by artificial light, which gives a different impression from the bright sunlight during the races I attended.

Edit: After checking some pictures, Doug (see below) is certainly right. Duckhams appeared on the cars in 1974, and there is a clear difference between 1973 and 1974.

Also, concerning dependence on light etc, the difference can also be seen by comparing the gold/yellow on the car to the bright yellow on Ronnie Peterson's peak.

[Doug Nye]

From memory they started out using proper gold paint - it flaked off and tarnished dreadfully so they had to keep on doing it. An experiment with gold leaf was even more costly and was ruled out. They went to a signwriter's gold made by a company named Keepers or Markers or somesuch which looked 'gold-type' from a distance, but which was in fact a pale fudgy beige shade. Then when they were part-sponsored by the Duckhams oil company, late in the piece, they adopted the Duckhams pale yellow - which was the worst option of all aesthetically...

DCN

[WDH74]

I remember reading something about the use of real gold leaf on the JPS cars in a magazine somewhere. Apparently it could be bought in sheets for what now seems like a ridiculously low price. Like the paint, it apparently tarnished quickly.

-William

[RTH]

This was British Leyland Harvest Gold which was non- metallic, a colour you would see mini/1300/Maxi etc. painted in 1973 and a good match for what the factory were doing . I painted these lines with cellulose and the number backgrounds (the decals were pvc and metallic ) .

THEY used stick on lines and pre-formed corners which they also put on the JPS Europa Special 72-75.

The non-metallic colour for the race cars (the road cars were always metallic- yes and it did degrade in sun light ) was chosen purely because it showed up with better definition in both B&W and colour still photography and on colour television.

[Vitesse2]

OMG! I had a Morris Ital in Harvest Gold .... don't ask

The guy I sold to painted it a very nice shade of red!

[ensign14]

Heh, the paint was worth more than the car.

[JtP]

Going by the problems encountered by the Jordan team, not the one of being run by Eddie Jordan. They wanted the car to run in gold colour for B&H sponsorship, but if painted gold it came out strange colours on the tele (black iirc)). This explains some of the strange colouring of early B&H Jordan races. This probably befell the Lotus colouring too and led to the actual chosen paint.

[stuartbrs]

Just as an aside, having been in the paint colour industry a few years back in a previous life, the human brain doesnt have the capacity to remember colours acuratley, and, colour is not a constant, it changes depending on the type of light that falls on to it...

And 70% of males are partialy colour blind, in other words, it doens tmean that you see things in black and white, it just means that you have trouble differentiating different shades of the same colour...

[DOHC]

A harder question about the shades of gold then:

Was the original JPS gold the same shade or type as the gold on the GLTL livery?

[RTH]

All the Gold Leaf cars I saw were certainly a conventional metallic gold as were the Lotus Elan Sprints sold in GLTL colours to mirror GP cars championship wins from '71 -73 - which in fact used plastic stick on decals for the side stripes with front & rear bumpers sprayed in met. gold.

[Dennis Hockenbury]

My thanks to all for the information. This confirms that various shades of 'gold' were used for the JPS livery.

The Type 79 that I referred to in my original post was unrestored when I spent about a half a day looking over that example. The 'gold' was the flat beige that DCN referenced. At that time, around 12 to 14 years ago, the driver's name on the vehicle was 'Andretti' and was owned by Hector Rebaque and sold by Ferrari of Houston to persons unknown.

[No27]

Originally posted by JtP
Going by the problems encountered by the Jordan team, not the one of being run by Eddie Jordan. They wanted the car to run in gold colour for B&H sponsorship, but if painted gold it came out strange colours on the tele (black iirc)). This explains some of the strange colouring of early B&H Jordan races. This probably befell the Lotus colouring too and led to the actual chosen paint.

Yes, they discovered that pale yellow looked more like gold on television than real gold did.

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
From memory they started out using proper gold paint - it flaked off and tarnished dreadfully so they had to keep on doing it. An experiment with gold leaf was even more costly and was ruled out. They went to a signwriter's gold made by a company named Keepers or Markers or somesuch which looked 'gold-type' from a distance, but which was in fact a pale fudgy beige shade. Then when they were part-sponsored by the Duckhams oil company, late in the piece, they adopted the Duckhams pale yellow - which was the worst option of all aesthetically...

DCN

As I recall, the 'gold' used on the Worldwide Racing-entered Lotus 56B which Emerson Fittipaldi raced in the 1971 Italian GP was of the same type as that used on the Type 72s when they were rolled out in JPS livery early 1972. I believe that the same colour (regardless of it's application) was used until the summer of 1974.

Judging by period images added to my own recollections, the cars were turned out with a relatively vivid yellow in place of the 'gold' from at least Dijon 1974, and certainly by Brands Hatch in July that year. My recollection then hits a bit of a 'blind spot' as I don't remember noting a distinct alteration in hue until 1978, when the yellow 'gold' had become a shade of beige.

All of these changes were in respect of 'brand identity' both on tv and in photography, and this is precisely why the Jordan chassis of 1996 first appeared in strange liveries at the start of that season. The common link is Jordan's Commercial Director Ian Phillips, a former editor of Autosport and around F1 during John Player's early years as Lotus' primary sponsors. So - mindful of the problems he was aware of from Lotus' past tribulations in using 'gold' - Phillips spent several hectic pre-season days at Silverstone in the company of film crews (I think a lot of these folk were Jordan employees, actually) trying out different shades of beige 'gold' to see which worked best when played back via video on the telly.

Indeed a logical and valiant attempt to look after the best interests of his team's new backers, but 'twas all in vain... The quality of tv images had improved to such an extent that by the mid-nineties his concerns were obsolete, and so - after the first couple of races - the cars were thereon presented in 'true' metallic gold. Until they changed to yellow, that is...!

Roughly the same story is applicable to Marlboro's chosen livrey; after two seasons each with BRM and McLaren using the same 'warm red' as used on their product, they realised that the colour actually appeared as brown on the tv. So, as of 1976, they used dayglo 'Rocket Red' until the all-important televisual representation was accurate enough to justify dropping back to plain warm red. Admittedly, they left it for a season or so once they'd switched from McLaren to Ferrari, but natuarally it was a politically delicate situation there. Therefore the 'brightening' of the so-called traditional Ferrari blood red is purely down to how near the car's colour resembles Marlboro's fag packet red on the telly. Sad, I suppose, but true nevertheless.

God; that must have sent a few off to sleep...!

Cheers, TW.

[Arjan de Roos]

TW, I am still awake! What allways struck me with the Marlboro McLarens during the nineties was the matt finish of the dayglo (fluo red) they used on gloss white. This must also have been to improve tv-visuals (?).
As during the Lauda Prost days they used a more semi gloss dayglo IIRC.

But is the story true that McLaren removed all paint and repainted the cars for every race?

[RTH]

Yes, they do.

You may remember Mr Dennis always used to send an advance party a few weeks before each Grand Prix to fully clean and paint grey the floor of their alloted pit garage ,to be ready and fully hardened before they arrived.

At Silverstone he had the pit garage floor tiled in grey Italian marble at a cost of £26,000, on the day they arrived for the GP , Mr Ecclestone told them , their space had been re- allocated to next door !

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Twin Window
(re: the '96 Jordans)

Indeed a logical and valiant attempt to look after the best interests of his team's new backers, but 'twas all in vain... The quality of tv images had improved to such an extent that by the mid-nineties his concerns were obsolete, and so - after the first couple of races - the cars were thereon presented in 'true' metallic gold. Until they changed to yellow, that is...!

Cheers, TW.

And one of the most visually and aurally pleasing modern F1 cars it was too, in metallic gold and without the Playstation-generation animals on the nose ;) The Pug engine sounded magnificent too - no idea what they'd done with the exhausts but it sounded like nothing else on the grid that year!

[ian senior]

Originally posted by RTH
Yes, they do.

You may remember Mr Dennis always used to send an advance party a few weeks before each Grand Prix to fully clean and paint grey the floor of their alloted pit garage ,to be ready and fully hardened before they arrived.

At Silverstone he had the pit garage floor tiled in grey Italian marble at a cost of £26,000, on the day they arrived for the GP , Mr Ecclestone told them , their space had been re- allocated to next door !

It's no wonder the costs of F1 are so astronomical if they carry out this kind of nonsense.

[D-Type]

Originally posted by RTH
Yes, they do.

You may remember Mr Dennis always used to send an advance party a few weeks before each Grand Prix to fully clean and paint grey the floor of their alloted pit garage ,to be ready and fully hardened before they arrived.

At Silverstone he had the pit garage floor tiled in grey Italian marble at a cost of £26,000, on the day they arrived for the GP , Mr Ecclestone told them , their space had been re- allocated to next door !

Wasn't there also a story that somewhere the (epoxy?) paint hadn't dried and the wheels stuck to it and they broke the suspension trying to jack the car up. Or this another 'urban myth?

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by Arjan de Roos
TW, I am still awake! What allways struck me with the Marlboro McLarens during the nineties was the matt finish of the dayglo (fluo red) they used on gloss white. This must also have been to improve tv-visuals (?).
As during the Lauda Prost days they used a more semi gloss dayglo IIRC.

But is the story true that McLaren removed all paint and repainted the cars for every race?

Hi Arjan

Sorry for such a late reply; I manged to send myself to sleep!!

I wonder if perhaps you are getting models of the cars mixed up with the real ones? Model maunfacturers have always struggled with reproducing Rocket Red accurately - even the likes of PMA and Tamiya.

As I recall the cars were always turned out in a glossy finish, except for the actual Marlboro wording itself, which was matt. I understand that this was so it was always legible by merit of the fact it didn't reflect light and therefore wouldn't get 'burnt out' of an image.

Given that Rocket Red required seven coats, it's always struck me as amusing that they would incur such a weight penalty! And also matt lettering must be less drag-efficient that shiny...

Regards,

TW

[Twin Window]

I should have said Rocket Red required seven coats (on top of white primer) and then lacquer on top!

TW

[Macca]

At Silverstone he had the pit garage floor tiled in grey Italian marble at a cost of £26,000, on the day they arrived for the GP , Mr Ecclestone told them , their space had been re- allocated to next door !

As I heard, the cunning plan was to give McLaren a different pit garage every year until they'd got the whole complex done for nothing.





PWM

[BRG]

Originally posted by Arjan de Roos
But is the story true that McLaren removed all paint and repainted the cars for every race?

Originally posted by RTH
Yes, they do.

Can we be sure about this, or is this yet another racing myth?

The reason that I ask is that, just after I first heard the story, I attended the annual tyre-testing session at Silverstone as a guest of Lotus (not that Lotus actually knew abotu me, of course!). I was looking at the McLarens and was struck by the chips and scratches and especially some places where movement of the bodywork had rubbed off paint. These were all signs of normal wear and tear, and were nothing that you would notice unless viewing from very close up, but they hardly looked like cars that had been very recently repainted.

So I wonder if this was just a story or whether anyone can actually substantiate it?

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by BRG




Can we be sure about this, or is this yet another racing myth?

The reason that I ask is that, just after I first heard the story, I attended the annual tyre-testing session at Silverstone as a guest of Lotus (not that Lotus actually knew abotu me, of course!). I was looking at the McLarens and was struck by the chips and scratches and especially some places where movement of the bodywork had rubbed off paint. These were all signs of normal wear and tear, and were nothing that you would notice unless viewing from very close up, but they hardly looked like cars that had been very recently repainted.

So I wonder if this was just a story or whether anyone can actually substantiate it?

I was also pretty sure I'd read somewhere that McLaren repainted the race cars after every meeting. It's entirely possible (although moderately unlikely, given what Ron is like about the external apperance of everything in his team!) that chassis that spend their time with the test team don't get the same care and attention lavished upon them?

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by BRG




Can we be sure about this, or is this yet another racing myth?

The reason that I ask is that, just after I first heard the story, I attended the annual tyre-testing session at Silverstone as a guest of Lotus (not that Lotus actually knew abotu me, of course!). I was looking at the McLarens and was struck by the chips and scratches and especially some places where movement of the bodywork had rubbed off paint. These were all signs of normal wear and tear, and were nothing that you would notice unless viewing from very close up, but they hardly looked like cars that had been very recently repainted.

So I wonder if this was just a story or whether anyone can actually substantiate it?

As far as I'm aware it was, and still is, the case with regard to the race team. Perhaps they're not quite as fussy about the test team, however. I have a friend who's ex-McLaren, so I'll double check with him.

Personally, I used to enjoy the days when F1 cars were relatively tatty, and British-based cars wouldn't normally get a refurb/repaint until just before the British GP!

TW

[RTH]

If you watched the TV series in 1993 "Mc Laren - The Team" they took you in to the paint shop and tha painter actually said the cars only have the thinnest possible coat of paint and as the company insist on a perfect appearance at every race all the paint is routinely chemically stripped on all bodywork that is to be re-used (probably not much) after every race and refinished in minimal amount of paint possible -for weight reasons.

Two - pack isocyanate paint (toxic) which has a very high pigment solids content, in the red &white days one coat of white baked for 20 mins , masked one coat of red, when dried a single coat of clear laquer to give a shine . I don't know what they do now - but as they have even more money now, no reason to think its any different. If you were trying to do it in cellulose - you would need a lot of coats to get a solid colour.

The test teams have different chassis to the race teams and as they are less in the public eye , spend much more time on the road away from base , appearance standards are no doubt lower

I have sprayed rocket red for an M23 show car -if you haven't seen it in the 'flesh' its a VERY bright flourescent 'motorway cone' red - it even has a British standards number - not at all easy on the eyes when you try to get solid coverage

D-TYPE : Yes I heard that about hot tyres stuck to the floor paint (which they do ) and early carbon fibre wishbones having fractured as the car was jacked up I believe it to be true .

So maybe the only answer is Italian marble floors everywhere ! - its still there by the way in the Silverstone pit garage.

[Arjan de Roos]

Originally posted by Twin Window


As I recall the cars were always turned out in a glossy finish, except for the actual Marlboro wording itself, which was matt. I understand that this was so it was always legible by merit of the fact it didn't reflect light and therefore wouldn't get 'burnt out' of an image.

TW,

McLaren Marlboro:
I am dead sure. The dayglo finish I saw at Hockenheim Paddock in the early nineties was matt, just like you mentioned the lettering.

[RTH]

This is rocket red, to the naked eye it looks more like pink, - but when you photograph it it comes out quite a deep red - very strange

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by RTH
This is rocket red, to the naked eye it looks more like pink, - but when you photograph it it comes out quite a deep red - very strange

...which is precisely why Philip Morris adaopted it!

TW

[dolomite]

Interesting photo here of the livery shown at the original launch of JPS sponsorship at the end of 1971:

http://www.latphoto.co.uk/*2PV_035084

[Twin Window]

My ex-McLaren friend tells me that the McLarens were and are still repainted after each race. He is now with Renault and they do the same - stripped down to carbon so to prevent weight bouild-up.

When I asked if the same applied to the test team chassis he told me that, as they do more mileage, they actually get repainted more often than the race cars...!

TW

[Barry Boor]

Back in 1977 I wrote to McLaren asking them about the paint they used on the F.1 cars. They very kindly sent me some. It was in 2 separate tins and had to be mixed together.

IIRC it dried flat and had to be lacquered in order to get a shiny finish.

Cars #1 & #2 are painted with it in this picture.



I wonder if they would send anyone paint these days!!!!

[Twin Window]

Hi Barry

Is that the Connew in your personal image that I see? British Gp '72? Migault during practice?

TW

[Ralliart]

In one of Niki Lauda's books, he mentions when he first went to Brabham that he hated the paint scheme of the current car, told them so and they changed it. That must be the ONLY time that a driver had that kind of "juice".

[Barry Boor]

Twin - Yes, it is!

[RTH]

Just in case anyone cares, the notes I have are that , certainly in '97 the McLaren factory for restoration of the red & white cars used Glasurit 2 pack 'Daylight Red' mixed 4 parts red to one part hardener, 'Gloss White 21 line ' mixed 2 parts white to 1 part hardener, Ultra violet proof clear laquer mix 2 parts to 1 part hardener, red dries matt , try not to use thinner

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
Twin - Yes, it is!

Marvelous! Surely the only F1 car to be sponsored by a seafood company! I recall seeing it again almost exactly a year later (I didn't catch it at the Victory Race, as Purls had shunted it in practice or something) at a Mallory Park F5000 meeting. Unfortunately, it was already loaded back onto it's trailer as Pierre Soukry hadn't qualified it...

A very pretty car, I always thought.

TW

[Vrba]

I'd have to check the photos but somehow I remember (perhaps wrongly) that Lotus switched to yellow (or biscuit in fact) at the beginning of 1974 as the biscuit colour looked more like gold than gold colour on TV and photographs. And I do agree that pics of later JPS Lotuses look better that 1972-1973 ones.
Indeed, as far as I can remember, all photos of 1974 Lotuses look differently than 1973 ones, I think that even the Type 76 was presented with black-yellow colour scheme....

Hrvoje

[D-Type]

Twin Windows,
Welcome to the forum
Try doing a "Search BB" for "Connew". And follow up some of the links. You'll be pleasantly surprised at what you find!

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by Vrba
I'd have to check the photos but somehow I remember (perhaps wrongly) that Lotus switched to yellow (or biscuit in fact) at the beginning of 1974 as the biscuit colour looked more like gold than gold colour on TV and photographs. And I do agree that pics of later JPS Lotuses look better that 1972-1973 ones.
Indeed, as far as I can remember, all photos of 1974 Lotuses look differently than 1973 ones, I think that even the Type 76 was presented with black-yellow colour scheme....

They were definately more yellow than biscuit at Brands for the Race of Champions and the GP, but like you said they could have been experimenting...

TW

[Twin Window]

I certainly shall, Barry!

Cheers,

TW

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by D-Type
Twin Windows,
Welcome to the forum
Try doing a "Search BB" for "Connew". And follow up some of the links. You'll be pleasantly surprised at what you find!

Sorry, D-Type; I meant to acknowledge your message in my last post! And thanks for the welcome, too.


TW

[VDP]

In an old copy from Sport Auto, Jabby Crombac wrote on report of the argentinian GP that Lotus change his color gold color to beige yellow, because gold wasn t very photogenic

Robert

Out topic what became with Crombac ?

[Cirrus]

On the subject of standards of appearance in F1, at the Monaco Historique last weekend, we were using the F1 garages (hope we left it tidy Fernando!). The Ferrari garage was not used, however, as they had an advance party who spent two days applying a perfectly smooth white screed to the floor.

As we left Monaco at 06:00 on Monday morning, we saw five immaculate Ferrari trucks just outside Monaco on the motorway - now that's what I call being prepared!

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by Cirrus
On the subject of standards of appearance in F1, at the Monaco Historique last weekend, we were using the F1 garages (hope we left it tidy Fernando!). The Ferrari garage was not used, however, as they had an advance party who spent two days applying a perfectly smooth white screed to the floor.

As we left Monaco at 06:00 on Monday morning, we saw five immaculate Ferrari trucks just outside Monaco on the motorway - now that's what I call being prepared!

I hear exactly what you're saying, Cirrus, but personally I'd get far more excited by seeing a brown BT37 arriving on the back of a trailer, Goldie Hexagon style, for the 1973 British GP!

TW

[Cirrus]

Or Pete Lovely carrying his Lotus 49 on the back of a VW pickup!

[Twin Window]

Exactly!

[RTH]

I had my first ever test session of my recenty aquired Mini 850 in 1971 in a general test day at Silverstone on the club circuit , at lunchtime a Mclaren M23 arrived on an open trailer, Denny Hulme parked next to us in his lavender XJ6 and was soon going round in it with all the other club drivers testing something or other , that was also the day Graham Coaker hit a marshals post testing a March 712.

[Macca]

McLaren M23? M19 I would think.

As it was indeed 1971 that Graham Coaker crashed




PWM

[RTH]

Yes , or course that must be right M19 my apologies.