48 replies to this topic

[Reyna]

I've found in a vintage Powerslide (German magazine) a photograph of John Watson with the Eiffelland 21 (March 721/4) at 1972 Players nº6 Grand Prix, Phoenix Park (Dublin) .


I'd like to know more about this race... It was a Formula Libre race ???

[Vicuna]

Yes - certainly F5000s were in there - perhaps F2's and Atlantics too.

[Reyna]

Here's the pic.



Source: Powerslide 1.973



Allen Brown has this Players nº6 Grand Prix race as raced on september 3th, and Watson as retired.

[Eric McLoughlin]

Nice picture. I think he missed the apex.

Shame I missed the event. I started attending the Phoenix Park races in 1975, by which time the John Player Grand Prix was for Formula Atlantic cars.

[Jeremy Jackson]

Alan Rollinson won the race in his T300. I think the only other F5000 was Steve Thompson's TS8, whcih didn't finish either heat. I presume the Nelson & Fildes Crosslé 22Fs would have been there, but away from my report at the moment...

Watosn retired in both heats; combined Brake & Clutch problems in the second heat, but not sure what stopped him in the first

[Reyna]

Originally posted by Jeremy Jackson
.... I presume the Nelson & Fildes Crosslé 22Fs would have been there, but away from my report at the moment...

Is this the Crosslé 22F that Brian Nelson raced at the Formula Libre events ???



Source: Autosprint 1.972

[Jeremy Jackson]

Yep, that's the one...

[Eric McLoughlin]

I wonder where these wonderful cars are now?

[Mac Lark]

That's a very pretty little car. How many were made?

[Milan Fistonic]

The race was a two-part affair, with heat one being held on Saturday and heat two on Sunday.

Watson missed the Saturday race because of problems getting the car on a boat.

Bernie Ecclestone was responsible for Watson driving the car although, since acquiring the car from Germany, he had subsequently sold it to an Irish born London motor dealer.

Rollinson had to pit during heat one to replace a chunking tyre and finished third almost a lap behind Brian Nelson. He then drove magnificently in heat two to reduce the overall deficit to zero with three laps remaining. He then closed up behind Nelson but did not pass, making sure Nelson would have to complete the final lap.

[EDWARD FITZGERALD]

great reading to day , watson missed race one , the car arrive on saturday afternoon during racing , it travelled in the eifelland transporter and was entered by tony monkey brown , i cant remember the chief mechanics name , he featured in f1 a few years later , tony brown gave damien magee a run in a brabham bt 37 aqnd then a brabham in the monaco f3 race

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by Mac Lark
That's a very pretty little car. How many were made?

Two. The bodywork became more convenional as it got older. Both were built in 1972 and were in Atlantics by 1975.

Allen

[Eric McLoughlin]

I should really dig out my 1975 Phoenix Park Programme to see who the Dublin Grand Prix (Formula Atlantic) entrants were. Unfortunately, it's in the loft at the moment.

[EDWARD FITZGERALD]

tre atlantic entries included tony brise , ted wentz , hector rebaque ,the late jim crawford and i am fairly certain alan jones and many more

[Eric McLoughlin]

I definitely remember Brise - as he was killed in Graham Hill's plane crash only three months later. Was Ken Fildes racing too and Alo and Jay Lawlor??

[Jeremy Jackson]

Two. The bodywork became more convenional as it got older. Both were built in 1972 and were in Atlantics by 1975

Allen,

There was a 22F advertised in Autosport a few years ago (specific issue escapes me, but I can dig it out) as 22F-73-04, ex-Nelson. Were they re-numbered at some point?

[Mallory Dan]

Originally posted by Eric McLoughlin
I definitely remember Brise - as he was killed in Graham Hill's plane crash only three months later. Was Ken Fildes racing too and Alo and Jay Lawlor??

Eric, is that Alo Lawler and Jay Pollock you mean, I've never heard of Jay Lawlor. Atlantic in UK and Ireland was good in the mid-70s, as a number of other threads will attest !

[Eric McLoughlin]

Yeah - I'm in a confused state at the moment :

[Milan Fistonic]

1972 Player’s No. 6 Grand Prix

Phoenix Park – 2nd & 3rd September 1972

2 heats of 29 laps

Heat 1
1. Brian Nelson (2.0 Crossle-Hart BDA 22F)
2. Ken Fildes (2.0 Crossle-Chevy-Cosworth 22F)
3. Alan Rollison (5.0 Lola-Chevrolet/Smith T300)
4. Eddie Regan (Chevron B19)
5. Nelson Todd ( Brabham BT30-FVA)
6. Walter Kinnear (Brabham BT23 t/c)
7. Harold McGarrity (Lotus 69-FVA)
8. Bob Marshland (Brabham BT35-BDA)

Retired
Steve Thompson (5.0 Surtees-Chevrolet/Morand/RES TS8)
John L’Amie (2.0 Cossle-Hart BDA 22F)
John Smith (March 772-Broadspeed BDA)
John Pollock (1.6 Lotus 69-FVA)
Patsy McGarrity (Brabham BT30-FVA)
Arthur Collier (Chevron B19)
Ritchie Heeley (Chevron B8)
Ronnie Mackay (Formula Atlanic Brabham)

Did Not Start
Peter Westbury (Brabham BT38 Felday alloy block 2.0-litre)
John Cannon (March-Olds)
John Watson (3.0 Eiffelland March-Ford 721)

Heat 2
1. Rollinson
2. Nelson
3. Pollock
4. Fildes
5. Todd
6. Marshland
7. Kinnear
8. Ritchie Conroy (1.6 Lola-t/c T100)

Overall result
1. Alan Rollison (5.0 Lola-Chevrolet/Smith T300), 1hr 40m 49.2s
2. Brian Nelson (2.0 Crossle-Hart BDA 22F), 1hr 40m 58.8s
3. Ken Fildes (2.0 Crossle-Chevy-Cosworth 22F), 58 laps
4. Nelson Todd ( Brabham BT30-FVA), 53 laps
5. Bob Marshland (Brabham BT35-BDA), 51 laps
6. Walter Kinnear (Brabham BT23 t/c), 50 laps
7. Ritchie Conroy (1.6 Lola-t/c T100), 48 laps
8. John Pollock (1.6 Lotus 69-FVA), 47 laps

Fastest Lap – Rollinson and Watson, 1m 38.4s (101.36 mph). New outright lap record

[Reyna]

Bravo Milan Fistonic !!!!

Many thanks.

[Reyna]

Originally posted by Milan Fistonic
Heat 1
1. Brian Nelson (2.0 Crossle-Hart BDA 22F)
2. Ken Fildes (2.0 Crossle-Chevy-Cosworth 22F)
......
Retired

John L’Amie (2.0 Cossle-Hart BDA 22F)
.......

Three Crosslé 22F ????

Originally posted by Milan Fistonic
Retired

John Cannon (March-Olds)
....

Was this the Cannon's March 72A ???
Here seen at the Rothmans 50.000



© DPPI

[Coogar]

Definitely three Crossle 22Fs, but John L'Amies car - red bodywork in contrast to Nelson's (blue) and Ken Fildes (green) was only finished a matter of hours before Phoenix Park that year and raced 'straight out of the box'. Oddly I don't recall seeing it run again but..........

[Reyna]

BTW... What is the difference between a Formula Libre race with some F1 cars (this Player's GP, the Australian/New Zealand GPs (before 1.964),....) and a F1 non championship race ???

Or... The 1972 Rothman's 50.000 is considered as a F1 non championship race... Why ???

How can we define a "F1 non championship race" ???



Thanks,
Rafa

[Rob29]

Originally posted by Reyna
BTW... What is the difference between a Formula Libre race with some F1 cars (this Player's GP, the Australian/New Zealand GPs (before 1.964),....) and a F1 non championship race ???

Or... The 1972 Rothman's 50.000 is considered as a F1 non championship race... Why ???

How can we define a "F1 non championship race" ???



Thanks,
Rafa

I guess it depends on what you want. Legally a F1 race is one where the regulations say it is for cars complying with current F1 rules. Last such event was in 1983. I do not have the rules for the Rothmans 50,000 but I recall it was FL but was unique in that about 15 contempary FOCA cars took part.

[Reyna]

Originally posted by Rob29
I guess it depends on what you want. Legally a F1 race is one where the regulations say it is for cars complying with current F1 rules.

Just two questions... When the World Championship for drivers was raced with F2 (1.952-53) there was some F1 races, so they were F1 Non Championship races ????

Does anyone knows under what rules were raced the New Zealand and Australian GPs before 1964 ???


Thanks,
Rafa

[Rob29]

Aus & NZ races before 1964 were Formula Libre. A few non-championship F1 races (4.5 litre u/s1.5 litre s/c) were held 1952-3.
I agree this is a problem area. The Buenos Aires City GP from 1954-60 was listed as Formula Libre but some years contained only F1 cars,some books show these as F1 races.

[uechtel]

Originally posted by Reyna

Just two questions... When the World Championship for drivers was raced with F2 (1.952-53) there was some F1 races, so they were F1 Non Championship races ????

No, the World Championship was run according to Formula 2 rules. So it were F2 World Championship Races.

Note: "Formula 1", "Grand Prix" and "World Championship" have not always meant the same thing like it is today.

"Formula 1" races, that were no "Grand Prix" and were not round of the "WC" -> many non-championship races like the "Race of Champions"

"Grand Prix" races, that were not Formula 1 and not round of the "WC" -> Macao GP, Monaco GP 1952, Formula Libre etc.

"World Championship" races that were not Grand Prix and not Formula 1 -> Indy 1950 - 1959

I think a "Formula 1" race is only when a race is explicitely open for Formula 1 cars. This includes all occasions when cars from other categories appeared (but still under F1 rules), as long as they do not exceed the F1 limits, like a number of F2 or even a few sports cars in the late fifties.

This is still quite a difference to Formula libre races, where Formula 1 cars just "happen" to fall under the rules (which virtually don´t exist...).

Other case is when a race is open to more than one category of cars (combined F1 / F2 race like the German GP in the late sixties). This is easy as long as the "other" category is regarded "lower" than the Formula 1, so that we could still list such races as proper F1 events with a proper Formula 2 class (and seperate classification) included. But things start to get complicated, if the "other" Formula is not automatically less competitive, like Formula 5000 (which at least theoretically has an engine cpapcity "advantage") AND if there is no seperate classification. In this case I would tend rather towards the "Forumla Libre" designation.


So a long-term question to me has always been how to deal with the South African races. When were they "Formula 1" and when something else?

In the early years they were open to 1500 cc, so they are usually listed as "F1" events, but as I understand they were open to four-cylinder cars only, which is an additional restriction on the Formula 1 rules. So I would not count this as "proper" F1 races (With the exception of the South African Grand Prix of course, which did not have this restriction).

Then we have the Rand GP in December 1965, already run under the new 3,0 litre Formula 1, which AFAIK became officially valid only on 1.1.1966. So taking it strictly can we count this as a Formula 1 race, when still the old 1500 cc rules were in place?

The following years it seems, that the South African series was run to "full" F1 specification, so the races of 1966 / 67 look quite unproblematic. But in 1968 the first F 5000 cars appeared, which were clearly beyond the F1 engine capacity limit. So I think, the races were officially opened to Formula 1 and Formula 5000 cars, but I don´t know whether they had COMBINED results only (= "Formula Libre" according to my definition above) or whether there were two separate classifictaions (which would mean that two titles would have to be declared at the end of the season, one for the "South African Formula 1 Champion" and the second one for the "South African F 5000 Champion)?

And I think around 1972 thing got additionally complicated by more and more F2 cars appearing also on the grids. So were the races "officially" opened to F2 as well, or did they only appear, because they automatically fell under F1 (or F5000) specifications?

Can anybody help to clarify this for me?

[Rob29]

In South Africa they actually introduced the 3 litre F1 one year early at the start of 1965 for their national series. In 72 an F2 class was added to keep up the numbers on the grid.

[David McKinney]

I think uechtel has misread Reyna's question
Yes Reyna, the F1 races held in 1952 and 1953 were non-championship F1 races. There were no world championship F1 Grands Prix in those years

[EDWARD FITZGERALD]

on may 13 I mentioned the chief mechanic on the watson march , it came to me this morning as i woke up, John Woodington .

[Allen Brown]

I don't think it is right to regards these South African races as libre. Libre means free, as in "anything goes" and that doesn't apply here. The South African races were open to cars adhering to one of two formulae, later three when F2 was added. In 1975, they also allowed a F Atlantic to join in. However, that didn't mean you could turn up with a 3.3 DFV in your F1 car or a 7.2-litre Chev in your F5000.

The Rothmans 50,000 in August 1972 was closest to libre of the major post-1963 races but, like the French hill climbs of the time, actually adhered to FIA Group 9 regulations.

Allen

[MCS]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Reyna
[B]
Three Crosslé 22F ????


Was this the Cannon's March 72A ???
Here seen at the Rothmans 50.000

Yes, that's it. Red with yellow bits!

MCS

[Bob Amblard]

Originally posted by Reyna
Here's the pic.



Source: Powerslide 1.973



Allen Brown has this Players nº6 Grand Prix race as raced on september 3th, and Watson as retired.

Please Reyna, can you post the pic again ?

Thank you

[Reyna]

Originally posted by Bob Amblard


Please Reyna, can you post the pic again ?

Thank you

Source: Powerslide.

[Bob Amblard]

Originally posted by Reyna


Source: Powerslide.

Thank you very much

[EDWARD FITZGERALD]

THE shot is ofWatson rounding The RATRA hairpin , the man in the the background is not a spectator , they were never allowed to stand that close .

[Rob29]

Originally posted by EDWARD FITZGERALD
THE shot is ofWatson rounding The RATRA hairpin , the man in the the background is not a spectator , they were never allowed to stand that close .

Not sure what angle that shot is taken from,but I certainly stood at Ratra for the F.Atlantic in 1979 protected only by a stone wall and some bales!

[simonlewisbooks]

Originally posted by Jeremy Jackson


Allen,

There was a 22F advertised in Autosport a few years ago (specific issue escapes me, but I can dig it out) as 22F-73-04, ex-Nelson. Were they re-numbered at some point?

I think one of these was raced with an ex Mansell Triumph Dolomite F3 engine in the Castle Combe Libre series in the early 1980s by Cornishman Willie Pascoe.
He lives a few miles from me and he interviewed me for my first job . The first question was "do you like motor racing?" and from then on it was the most enjoyable job interview I ever had !
Almost none of it related to work , mostly it concerned around the merits of the current F1 drivers (circa 1983) and what racing Willie had done over the previous decade.
The car was always referred to as being ex F2 and was used until the Castle Combe series folded mid-80s. Then it sat in a garage for ages ocassionally being started up and offered for sale before returning to hybernation. Last I heard it was sold and going back home to Ireland.

Simon Lewis
Transport Bools
www.simonlewis.com

[Allen Brown]

I'd forgotten about this thread. Even old Nostalgia threads are becoming nostalgia!

Trying to compare these cars with what Chris Townsend (and others) has now uncovered about the Atlantics and F2s of the period, two cars particluarly interested me:

Ken Fildes (2.0 Crossle-Chevy-Cosworth 22F)
Peter Westbury (Brabham BT38 Felday alloy block 2.0-litre)

Was that "Chevy-Cosworth" in the Crossle a Vega? And was the "Felday alloy block 2.0-litre" a Felday-built engine? A BDA? Anyone know?

Allen

[simonlewisbooks]

Originally posted by Allen Brown
And was the "Felday alloy block 2.0-litre" a Felday-built engine? A BDA? Anyone know?

Allen

You could always ask Peter Westbury himself as he was "Mr Felday" and he was at the Shelsley Walsh event in the summer, so someone must know how to reach him. Toby Moody maybe?
A decent article on Westbury is long overdue (or maybe I have missed one that's appeared?), he constructed several very unusual 4WD racing cars (Jim Clark drove one of them) as well as racing in F2 and being British Hillclimb champion in the Ferguson and his own Felday Daimler. Clever chap.

Simon Lewis
Transport Books

[EDWARD FITZGERALD]

I will contact ken fildes and get his thoughts on the engine .

[bill patterson]

Referring to the Crossle 22F development of this thread. I think the John L'Amie car was a Works car that became the Works Formula Atlantic car in front radiator format which was subsequently hillclimbed in Ireland by Robert McGimpsey then restored to 22F spec. with a 2.0 litre Cosworth BDG - this car is apparently for sale again having been stored/laid up for approx. 10 years. If anyone is interested I can obtain the owner's contact details

[Cappo]

Some more shots of Brian Nelson in the Crossle - early Mondello

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by bill patterson
Referring to the Crossle 22F development of this thread. I think the John L'Amie car was a Works car that became the Works Formula Atlantic car in front radiator format which was subsequently hillclimbed in Ireland by Robert McGimpsey then restored to 22F spec. with a 2.0 litre Cosworth BDG - this car is apparently for sale again having been stored/laid up for approx. 10 years. If anyone is interested I can obtain the owner's contact details

Would that be the Formula B 28F? According to the "30 years of winning" book, the 28F was based on a 22F, was sold to Dr Mangan in Ohio and owned at the time the book was written (1988) by Mike Rand.

[bill patterson]

I believe the ex L'Amie car was converted to Formula Atlantic spec. for use in the UK and Ireland driven by Jay Pollock

[mackdee]

My father, Desmond Mack, owned the blue Crossle - Brian Nelson driving, followed by Nelson Todd. I was about 12 yrs old at the time, but from memory there were 2 built - doing the circuit of Kirkistown, Mondello, Phoenix Park, Ingliston, and the Craigantlet Hillclimb. The other was green, and that was driven by Ken Fildes, I think.
If anyone knows what ever happened to the blue 22f - i would be extremely keen to hear from you.

[EDWARD FITZGERALD]

good to hear from you MACDEE, I read an article in Carsport magazine , saying you father once carried an atlantic engine in the front passenger seat of his Lamborgini , is this so as I dont recall him having a Lambo.

[bill patterson]

The Lambo was a Urraco, pale Metallic Blue - about '74/'75

There were at least 3no. 22F's built:-

Blue car - owned by Desmond Mack, driven by Brian Nelson
Green car - driven by Ken Fildes
Red car - owned/driven by John L'Amie

[mackdee]

Hello Edward

The lambo story is true. He removed the passenger seat to go and pick up an engine from Brian Hart - I'm not sure if the seat was ever replaced -before the local constabulary relieved him of his licence (separate story!)

And yes Bill - it was an Urraco (1974) - but silver.

I would love to hear from either of you - as you seem to know about my Dad - weirdly, today is the anniversary of his passing - (8 yrs ago)

You can mail me : davemack1@mac.com

Best wishes

David