331 replies to this topic

[perseus3d]

Come on Vrba. You're taking super conspiracy theories and passing them off as fact. There is a possibility of terrorist attack before the elections, but i think youre trying to prove that if there is one, its one created by the government. Come on man, get a grip.

Originally posted by Vrba

I am serious and believe me when I tell you that, in the case of significant John Kerry's advantage, there will be another "terrorist" attack in the USA in order to prevent the elections from taking place. You'll see.
BTW, do read a book I recommended you, or some other on the topic. Very insightful.

Hrvoje

[crono33]

yes saudi arabia also is included. however, saudi arabia government and saudi arabia rich families are two different things and have different policies. saudi arabia is in the list of nations that need changes.

as for the oil, the recent oil price hike shows that is not W who decides prices or conditions. and i am not aware of any oil producer who decides not to sell it in spite of some president..

gm

Originally posted by Spunout
"they have the luck of an immens wealth buried under their feet and how do they use it? buy weapons, build golden palaces for the realty and the family, finance the killing of occidental civilians, keep the population in a low state, oppress women, just to name a few."

Are we talking about Saudi-Arabia here?

"my opinion is that we cant just turn a blind eye to that and endure the pain of terrorism just because we need their oil."

Saudi-Arabia...?

"nobody wants to take their oil, we are happy to buy it and pay a fair price for it."

Sure. The question is what happens if they aren´t willing to sell their oil (according to terms of G.W Bush)

[Vrba]

Originally posted by perseus3d
Come on Vrba. You're taking super conspiracy theories and passing them off as fact. There is a possibility of terrorist attack before the elections, but i think youre trying to prove that if there is one, its one created by the government. Come on man, get a grip.

OK, I don't have the proof. But the other side doesn't have any either. And zthey didn't find any weapons in Iraq. We'll see who was right one day.

Hrvoje

[Vrba]

Originally posted by Fat Boy
Vrba,

Please don't listen to the dog when he tells you to kill the neighbors.

Fat Boy

Believe me that things look so much different when looked from aside. My opinion is not uncommon in Europe.

Hrvoje

[Viss1]

Originally posted by crono33
as for the oil, the recent oil price hike shows that is not W who decides prices or conditions.

Although his family's friends in the business are certainly not complaining about their increased revenue.

[Spunout]

"My opinion is not uncommon in Europe."

I have to disagree.

[McGuire]

Originally posted by Vrba

My opinion is not uncommon in Europe.

Hrvoje

All over the world one can find people who believe the moon landings were staged, or that the holocaust never happened. When one more person adopts an ignorant view, does it come a step closer to being true?

[remmosffej]

I think the discussion has devloved sufficiently to warrant closure, or at least moving it where it belongs.

[McGuire]

Originally posted by remmosffej
I think the discussion has devloved sufficiently to warrant closure, or at least moving it where it belongs.

Agreed. Please, stop us before we bore again.

[Ben]

Originally posted by Vrba

I am serious and believe me when I tell you that, in the case of significant John Kerry's advantage, there will be another "terrorist" attack in the USA in order to prevent the elections from taking place. You'll see.
BTW, do read a book I recommended you, or some other on the topic. Very insightful.

Hrvoje

I think our friend here is implying there would be a staged terror attack. However why is this sort of statement any different from the constant threat alerts from the FBI:

http://straitstimes....,270628,00.html

How many times have we heard this sort of thing that allows Bush to say how tough he is on terror when nothing's actually happened. as I said above, we in the west are fed just as much propaganda as various regimes we're told to hate.

Ben

[RDV]

Originally posted by remmosffej
I think the discussion has devloved sufficiently to warrant closure, or at least moving it where it belongs.

yes.... or bring back Franklin..... on the other hand, why not use bigger wheels on the outside in oval racing?

[Vrba]

Originally posted by Ben


I think our friend here is implying there would be a staged terror attack. However why is this sort of statement any different from the constant threat alerts from the FBI:

http://straitstimes....,270628,00.html

How many times have we heard this sort of thing that allows Bush to say how tough he is on terror when nothing's actually happened. as I said above, we in the west are fed just as much propaganda as various regimes we're told to hate.

Ben

Yes, a staged attack. And it wouldn't be the first one. If USA vote another term for Bush, Americans would sign their own death penalty. "Terrorist attacks" are just a means for building a totalitarian state and USA is now well on the way.
Another example: recent terrorist attack in Russian schools might not have been staged (but it might have been staged as well), but it was deliberately dealt with in the worst possible way by the authorities in order to extract as good as possible use of the attack for further imposing of totalitarian measures by the government....

Hrvoje

[Ben]

Originally posted by Vrba

Yes, a staged attack. And it wouldn't be the first one. If USA vote another term for Bush, Americans would sign their own death penalty. "Terrorist attacks" are just a means for building a totalitarian state and USA is now well on the way.
Another example: recent terrorist attack in Russian schools might not have been staged (but it might have been staged as well), but it was deliberately dealt with in the worst possible way by the authorities in order to extract as good as possible use of the attack for further imposing of totalitarian measures by the government....

Hrvoje

Dude, you need to quit reading the Tom Clancy novels. That's not to say governments don't do this sort of thing but to say things like this so soon after an incident is rubbish. It can only be an opinion, and if you are later proved wrong it allows people to discredit your ideas. It took months for the full story to emerge about the theatre seige in Moscow and I would reserve judgment on this until much later.

How can you possibly say it was dealt with in the worst possible way? What evidence are you drawing upon?

Ben

[Big Block 8]

Vrba,

Just out of curiousity, although I agree that some elements inside USA are most likely very happy about the recent unfortunate happenings after all - do you realize, that these theories you create in your mind (nazi-USA, government staged terror attacks), are just as prone to be false, as any other radical conspiracy theories, like staged moon landings, alien infiltrations and such?

[Greg Locock]

I've got to say as a longish term TFer this stupid honeytrap thread has now exhausted my patience. I admire the emotion the US elections bring, but I hate every post it inspires on this board.

[dosco]

Originally posted by Big Block 8
Vrba,

Just out of curiousity, although I agree that some elements inside USA are most likely very happy about the recent unfortunate happenings after all - do you realize, that these theories you create in your mind (nazi-USA, government staged terror attacks), are just as prone to be false, as any other radical conspiracy theories, like staged moon landings, alien infiltrations and such?

The problem IMO with many of these conspiracy theories is:

1. If you examine the arguments (and "proof" or "evidence") from a technical perspective, the flaws are easily identified.

example: moon landing was staged b/c the pictures taken on the moon don't have stars in the background.

Anyone who has done any photogrophy with a flash will know that though the subject may be properly lit, everything in the background is either washed out or blacked out due to light intensity differences, etc.

2. Conspiracy theories are "uinquestionable." The "proof" always can be "explained away" as cover up and therefore the conspiracy cannot be argued against. Much like religion.

3. People talk. The more people are involved in some wacky conspiracy, the higher the odds it'll be "outed" since people like to talk. When I was in the USAF, if I was to go overseas on some classified mission and I didn't know where I was going, I'd just go to the local donut shop and ask the wait staff. They knew. How? People like to talk.



So vrba can come up with whatever he wants, but frankly he is a fool to believe that the 9/11 attack was staged. Of course, he's allowed to believe whatever he wants - but it doesn't mean it's right.

(I've been involved in a "the 9/11 attack was staged" discussion on another unrelated BB/forum....the "evidence" is quite amusing).

[Vrba]

Originally posted by Ben


Dude, you need to quit reading the Tom Clancy novels. That's not to say governments don't do this sort of thing but to say things like this so soon after an incident is rubbish. It can only be an opinion, and if you are later proved wrong it allows people to discredit your ideas. It took months for the full story to emerge about the theatre seige in Moscow and I would reserve judgment on this until much later.

How can you possibly say it was dealt with in the worst possible way? What evidence are you drawing upon?

Ben

Never heard of Tom Clancy. About Russians: have you ever heard a truthful official information about anything happening there until well after the incidents? Tschernobyl disaster, Kursk disaster, Moscow theatre....always the same pattern: denial, diminishing of seriousness, clumsy handling, far greater consequences than expected....

Hr

[Vrba]

Originally posted by Big Block 8
Vrba,

Just out of curiousity, although I agree that some elements inside USA are most likely very happy about the recent unfortunate happenings after all - do you realize, that these theories you create in your mind (nazi-USA, government staged terror attacks), are just as prone to be false, as any other radical conspiracy theories, like staged moon landings, alien infiltrations and such?

But they might as well be true. There are no concrete proofs that they are not true. Of course, it's easier to believe that they are not true. What if, in several years' time, they turn out to be true?

Hrvoje

[Spunout]

"But they might as well be true. There are no concrete proofs that they are not true."

There are no concrete proofs that I am not writing this post from my home at Mars where I live with my alien friends.

[Vrba]

Originally posted by Spunout
"But they might as well be true. There are no concrete proofs that they are not true."

There are no concrete proofs that I am not writing this post from my home at Mars where I live with my alien friends.

OK, you'll see and realize one day.

Hrvoje

[Spunout]

"Another example: recent terrorist attack in Russian schools might not have been staged (but it might have been staged as well), but it was deliberately dealt with in the worst possible way by the authorities in order to extract as good as possible use of the attack for further imposing of totalitarian measures by the government...."

So you are saying Mr Putin & his conspiracy gang purposely caused the deaths of women and children (by somehow sabotaging the tape attached to the bomb) to lower his popularity among voters? Wow. What a brilliant political. That guy must be genius.

[Vrba]

Originally posted by Spunout
"Another example: recent terrorist attack in Russian schools might not have been staged (but it might have been staged as well), but it was deliberately dealt with in the worst possible way by the authorities in order to extract as good as possible use of the attack for further imposing of totalitarian measures by the government...."

So you are saying Mr Putin & his conspiracy gang purposely caused the deaths of women and children (by somehow sabotaging the tape attached to the bomb) to lower his popularity among voters? Wow. What a brilliant political. That guy must be genius.

You and I both know that there are plenty of countries where majority of voters doesn't decide anything (except that it may look like that to an outside observer). Putin doesn't depend on his popularity amongst voters. Bush didn't win majority of votes, he even simply falsified elections in Florida and here we are - he is the President despite the fact that majority voted his opponent. When next Russian elections come, the method would be founde, no doubt. Just as in the USA.

Hrvoje

[Vrba]

Originally posted by Ben

....How can you possibly say it was dealt with in the worst possible way? What evidence are you drawing upon?

Ben

Healthy eyes and common sense - nothing else is necessary to understand the world. Today, Zbigniew Brzezinski, 1976-1980 USA official, confirmed my impression: "Russian intelligence services are brutal and incompetent, they are not up to situations like these. The same problem showd in Moscow two years ago, in a similar situation. Imagine you were beaten by a mosquito and you slam it with a big hammer - although you could have used your palm.- By doing it, you break your own leg. For a compromise one needs tolerance and common sense but the current Russian government, descending from KGB, has little of those...."

Hrvoje

[Big Block 8]

Originally posted by Vrba

But they might as well be true. There are no concrete proofs that they are not true. Of course, it's easier to believe that they are not true. What if, in several years' time, they turn out to be true?

Hrvoje

There's only one truth, but an infinite number of possibilities. Your reasoning makes it sound as we would live in a world of unprobabilities, which is, well... unprobable.

[Big Block 8]

Originally posted by dosco


The problem IMO with many of these conspiracy theories is:

1. If you examine the arguments (and "proof" or "evidence") from a technical perspective, the flaws are easily identified.

example: moon landing was staged b/c the pictures taken on the moon don't have stars in the background.

Anyone who has done any photogrophy with a flash will know that though the subject may be properly lit, everything in the background is either washed out or blacked out due to light intensity differences, etc.

2. Conspiracy theories are "uinquestionable." The "proof" always can be "explained away" as cover up and therefore the conspiracy cannot be argued against. Much like religion.

3. People talk. The more people are involved in some wacky conspiracy, the higher the odds it'll be "outed" since people like to talk. When I was in the USAF, if I was to go overseas on some classified mission and I didn't know where I was going, I'd just go to the local donut shop and ask the wait staff. They knew. How? People like to talk.



So vrba can come up with whatever he wants, but frankly he is a fool to believe that the 9/11 attack was staged. Of course, he's allowed to believe whatever he wants - but it doesn't mean it's right.

(I've been involved in a "the 9/11 attack was staged" discussion on another unrelated BB/forum....the "evidence" is quite amusing).

That was quite well put. Anyway, I find his theories interesting, as I had rather similar ones when I was younger and the world was such an easy place - everything was black and white and I thought I knew everything. Unfortunately, it later became evident, that I had made a mistake.

[crono33]

your statement is ludicrous and assumes that hundreds or even thousands people were secretely involved in such illegal thing as falsifying elections. and they did it so badly that they had to recount votes many times and win was by a narrow margin.

the simple fact is that even if it is not very common, elections won by a very narrow margin have happened many times in history, and have always generated this sort of statements.

i remember bush votes were counted several times and however there were some differences, he was never counted losing.

these conspiracy theories are very nice and dont usually require any evidence, just "common sense".

common sense in 18th century was that travelling on a train people would die of asphyxia (spelling...) and this has ben written by eminent scientists at the time.

as i said before, pigs fly at night. prove me wrong.

gm

Originally posted by Vrba

popularity amongst voters. Bush didn't win majority of votes, he even simply falsified elections in Florida and here we are - he is the President despite the fact that majority voted his opponent.

Hrvoje

[wegmann]

Originally posted by Big Block 8
That was quite well put. Anyway, I find his theories interesting, as I had rather similar ones when I was younger and the world was such an easy place - everything was black and white and I thought I knew everything. Unfortunately, it later became evident, that I had made a mistake.

You nailed it on the head. I think everybody goes through that phase and that's where our buddy Vrba is now. It's best to ignore him.

[McGuire]

Originally posted by RDV


yes.... or bring back Franklin..... on the other hand, why not use bigger wheels on the outside in oval racing?

The bigger tires should go on the inside, to compensate for the banking.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

Originally posted by Spunout
So you are saying Mr Putin & his conspiracy gang purposely caused the deaths of women and children (by somehow sabotaging the tape attached to the bomb) to lower his popularity among voters? Wow. What a brilliant political. That guy must be genius.

Don't be naive, Russia is no democracy, popularity among "voters" means jack. What this does give Putin is an incredible opening to further state terror, all in the name of fighting "international terrorism". Today, the biggest danger is not terrorism, by far the biggest danger is letting Stalins get in power on the premise of fighting terrorism. Don't let the insanity of Vrba make you blind to the processes that happen in Russia right this minute. Mark my words, Putin is very bad news for the civilized world.

[Vrba]

Originally posted by Dmitriy_Guller

Don't be naive, Russia is no democracy, popularity among "voters" means jack. What this does give Putin is an incredible opening to further state terror, all in the name of fighting "international terrorism". Today, the biggest danger is not terrorism, by far the biggest danger is letting Stalins get in power on the premise of fighting terrorism. Don't let the insanity of Vrba make you blind to the processes that happen in Russia right this minute. Mark my words, Putin is very bad news for the civilized world.

Why am I insane when it seems that you and me agree?!?

Hrvoje

[desmo]

Originally posted by Greg Locock
I've got to say as a longish term TFer this stupid honeytrap thread has now exhausted my patience. I admire the emotion the US elections bring, but I hate every post it inspires on this board.

I, finally, agree. As long as the discussion remained rational I was prepared to let it go, but we've ventured into irrational conspiracy theory spoutings at this point and the web is sufficiently awash in venues for crackpot raving already.

Enough. This thread is locked. All participants are welcomed to continue the discussion in the Paddock Club, a more appropriate forum for this. I apologise to those who had to put up with it.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

Originally posted by Vrba

Why am I insane when it seems that you and me agree?!?

Hrvoje

I only agree with one of your points, and only in general terms. When it comes to US, you're off your rocker completely. Even the dead clock is right twice a day, and you don't have to be a genius to see where the Russia is going, it should be obvious to anyone who's looking.