54 replies to this topic

[Mihai]

No, it’s not the title of a new rap album. It’s what we see sometimes in F1. Grand Prix drivers are not better than common drivers in traffic, in terms of manners. As an F1 viewer since a young age, I witnessed live three incidents involving a very popular obscene gesture. My humble list is subject to your kind contribution :

Heinz-Harald Frentzen to Mark Blundell in Australia 1995. Frentzen was lapping the Brit in his very last GP race, but he didn’t let him pass. Probably he couldn’t believe that his McLaren-Mercedes was losing a lap to a Sauber-Ford.

David Coulthard to Michael Schumacher in France 1998 because Schuey went to the limit of fair-play and beyond in order to wreck the Scotsman’s race strategy.

Fernando Alonso to Ralf Schumacher in Monaco 2004 in the Tunnel incident that we all enjoyed.

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by Mihai

David Coulthard to Michael Schumacher in France 1998 because Schuey went to the limit of fair-play and beyond in order to wreck the Scotsman’s race strategy.

Don't remember that one, but I do remember Coulthard making the gesture during the 2000 French GP.

[x_acto]

I remember that David made a great overtake manouver over Schumacher!

I wish he still could do that in these days...

[Wolf]

Mihai- apart from those You mention, there was Johhny Herbert giving middle finger from the podium (I believe it was British GP), and I think Montoya gave Schumacher one on cool-down lap few races ago (when on first lap MS did to JPM as JPM does to others )...

As for Coulthard- MS incident You mention, if my memory isn't playing tricks on me, I don't recall anything that would warrant mentioning boundaries of fair-play: IIRC MS was trying very hard to stay in front of DC (and once at the same corner retaken the lost position), but I can't say there was anything controversial about it.

As an aside, even though I occasionaly suffer from road rage, and can understand frustration, I do not approve those kind of things. Does anybody know whether FIA sanctions such behaviour- (considering TV audience, and all things) I believe at least a fine (hefty one) would be in order. AFAIK cursing at the refs or opponents can get one thrown off the footbal pitch (in fact, I think it should, but strict adherence to that rule would many-a-time end the match prematurely, because there wouldn't be enough players on the pitch), so I don't think it would be a precedent.

[Suzy]

Riccardo Zonta to the marshal "driving" the recovery vehicle after the recovery man nearly dropped Zonta's stricken BAR on his head

[x_acto]

And Senna to Prost in Suzuka 1989 ? Just after they collide...

[Ralliart]

I recall an Australian GP where a driver gave Arnoux (I think it was his final GP) the finger after being held up.

[Orac]

Jean Alesi to Martin Brundle (?) going through Stowe corner. IIRC, Alesi had the Ferrari on opposite lock with his left hand while looking at Brundle and gesturing with his right.

[bigears]

Also during one GP at Zolder, Han Stuck gave the finger to Jan Lammers or the other way round.

[Garagiste]

Though it wasn't a finger per se, the mention of Alesi reminded me of him waving an imaginary blue flag all the way down one of the long straights at (old) Hockenheim. Cracked me up sometimes did Jean.

One of my earliest memories of Murray: "And Sheene ...... waves to Roberts as he goes past".

[Mark Bennett]

Originally posted by Ralliart
I recall an Australian GP where a driver gave Arnoux (I think it was his final GP) the finger after being held up.

Jean Alesi again I believe

[rdrcr]

From the rdrcr archives.... Caught with the on-board camera!

Who is this?

[RTH]

Originally posted by Wolf


I do not approve those kind of things. Does anybody know whether FIA sanctions such behaviour- (considering TV audience, and all things) I believe at least a fine (hefty one) would be in order. AFAIK cursing at the refs or opponents can get one thrown off the footbal pitch (in fact, I think it should, but strict adherence to that rule would many-a-time end the match prematurely, because there wouldn't be enough players on the pitch), so I don't think it would be a precedent.

I think its a vile practice, just like footballers and tennis players financial fines mean nothing at all to them, - they all have far too many millions for that . Race bans are the only thing that gets their attention, its time this was routinely used to curtail much of the bad on track behaviour we now see all too frequently

[cheesy poofs]

Originally posted by rdrcr


From the rdrcr archives.... Caught with the on-board camera!

Who is this?

Frentzen in the Sauber.

[Pikachu Racing]

Last year Kimi Raikkoden gives Justin Wilson the finger in practice. I still have the clip on my PC.

[Jim Thurman]

Neither are F1, and neither were aimed at a fellow driver, but two memorable ones I witnessed...

Parnelli Jones in the January 1970 NASCAR Grand National 'Motor Trend 500' at Riverside International Raceway. Parnelli had shattered the track record in qualifying, but NASCAR ruled his Firestone tires illegal (I'm sure that it being the first race with a Goodyear tire contract had no bearing on this ), saying he'd have to be able to supply half the field for them to be eligible. After an all night thrash, enough tires were ready, but NASCAR still ruled that Jones and several other drivers that qualified on the Firestones (all Western GN drivers), would have to start behind the other qualifiers. Parnelli started 35th. He stormed through the field and took the lead. The first time he came past the start/finish line in the lead, he stuck his arm out the window and emphatically gestured toward the box where the NASCAR officials were. The crowd in the main grandstand erupted. This is being lost to history, as mention of it turns up in very few accounts, but I witnessed it. Autoweek had some line about how Parnelli let the officials know exactly what position he was in as he came by.

And, the second one...

Mark Sargent being pushed off for his qualifying lap in his Super Modified at the San Jose Fairgrounds Speedway in the mid-80's.

As he's introduced over the P.A., a loud chorus of boos spills from the stands. Sargent has just rolled onto the 1/4 mile dirt oval, and as he stomps on the throttle for the green flag, he has his right arm extended outward and upward - saluting the crowd for their reception.

[RTH]

If any driver has a grievance with another competitor , there is a proper proceedure, you do not take the law in to your own hands by gesturing, having a public slanging match of physically attacking someone.

You go to the clerk of the course and officially file a complaint , they are obliged to investigate , that is after all the primary function of official observers, and the army of staff that run race meetings these days , you make them deal with it , and enforce the appropriate penalty. We would soon have much improved standards if this was done by team managers and their drivers.

[D-Type]

Originally posted by RTH


I think its a vile practice, just like footballers and tennis players financial fines mean nothing at all to them, - they all have far too many millions for that . Race bans are the only thing that gets their attention, its time this was routinely used to curtail much of the bad on track behaviour we now see all too frequently

I totally agree

[NeilB]

Originally posted by rdrcr


From the rdrcr archives.... Caught with the on-board camera!

Who is this?

John Watson on HHF's finger - "Oh a finger, thats the international racing sign for thank you."

[sasha]

I just remember Middlefinger of Frentzen, adressed to Gerhard Berger at Austria'97/ Berger was lapped and didn't pass HH. Heinz gave him **** at Start-Finish line.

P.S. Sorry for my English!

[No27]

Didn't Rubens Barrichello give the finger after winning a GP that Schumacher should have won according to Ferrari's team tactics? And wasn't this in 2002? USA?

[Mihai]

Lots of verbal violence in the famous Senna-Irvine post-race clash at Suzuka 1993. Just count the number of times that Senna used the f word in this transcription of their dialogue :

http://www.ayrton-se...nna/suzuka.html

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by RTH
If any driver has a grievance with another competitor , there is a proper proceedure, you do not take the law in to your own hands by gesturing, having a public slanging match of physically attacking someone.

Wow talk about hand bags at dawn. Shaking your fist at someone is completely within your rights on the race track, afterall you arent on the same radio freq as them ;) Doing it on the highway is just impatience and you being a dick. I agree on the physical stuff, but racing drivers can behave any way they want short of violence and the only court they have to worry about is the one of public opinion.

[Rainer Nyberg]

I remember Cesare Fiorio giving one to Ron Dennis but don't remember the race (early 1990s).

[Doug Nye]

One amusing confrontation I recall was the pencil-slim Luca di Montezemolo taking a frustrated swing at Burdette Martin - race steward - at Watkins Glen at a 1970s US GP (1974, '76, somesuch???). Fortunately the large Mr Martin was more amused than enraged. Otherwise Montezemolo could, indeed, have awoken a sleeping giant...he might not have been around to assume the Presidency of Fiat...

DCN

[rdrcr]

Originally posted by RTH
"...You go to the clerk of the course and officially file a complaint , they are obliged to investigate , that is after all the primary function of official observers, and the army of staff that run race meetings these days , you make them deal with it , and enforce the appropriate penalty. We would soon have much improved standards if this was done by team managers and their drivers. "

Sorry to disagree here, but it seems that the mist flows stronger in some than in others...

If I'm balked once by a lesser foe, I'll chalk it up to inattention or lack of experience, twice provokes distain and perhaps a quiet word after the race, thrice, and the gloves come off... a wave of recognition as one passes by is worth a thousand words in most cases.

Conversely, I try to never be the moving chicane, if I'm out-classed, I'll move aside.

[LittleChris]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
One amusing confrontation I recall was the pencil-slim Luca di Montezemolo taking a frustrated swing at Burdette Martin - race steward - at Watkins Glen at a 1970s US GP (1974, '76, somesuch???). Fortunately the large Mr Martin was more amused than enraged. Otherwise Montezemolo could, indeed, have awoken a sleeping giant...he might not have been around to assume the Presidency of Fiat...

DCN

I think it was something to do with Regga getting black flagged - possibly 1975.

[Andrew Fellowes]

Pedro Rodriguez, BRM, Silverstone, 1970, frustrated at not being able to overtake he waved his fist at the driver in front, (too long ago to remember who that was) nothing remarkable or unusual about that, except he was going through (a proper) Woodcote at the time! I was standing on the inside of the corner and it was one of those moments that you need a replay to confirm what you thought you just saw.

[Jungle Boy]

Jean Alesi has to win the award for most times flipping off a fellow driver! Jean had done it so many times I just can't keep track of them all

Somebody mention Herbert flipping the bird on the podium, when was that? And what about? I would really be interested to know.

[Mihai]

I remember an intriguing incident in CART, a couple of years ago. In a race held on oval Japan’s Tora Takagi collides with former champion Jimmy Vasser. The result is the American wrecking his car into the wall. The race consequently gets a full course yellow and the cars still running (Takagi among them) are crawling behind the pace-car. Standing on the side, Vasser watches for Takagi-san to come near and gives him some ironic applause. A nice piece of political correctness by Jimmy, I should say !

A similar situation can be solved very different in NASCAR though. More or less the same period, the same scenario until one point: oval race, one driver pushes another in the wall, race under yellow. BUT : the driver who’s race ended smashes the other guy’s car with his helmet. Is it because NASCAR drivers traditionally are recognised as rednecks ? Jim Thurman, I’d like to hear your opinion.

[Ross Stonefeld]

oh dear oh dear oh dear....

[Lukin]

This one is not F1 but happenned last year in the final V8 round. Russell Ingall and Mark Skaiffee tangled and Skaiffe ended up in the wall. I think the course went yellow. Anyway the next lap when Ingall came around Skaiffee tossed his helmet to the marshall, jumped the fence and ran to the side of the track screaming and giving Ingall more than just the bird. If the bird is the international racing sign for 'thank you' then what Skaiffee gave Ingall must of been the international sign for 'thank you and have a glorious day kind chap.' Instead of returning the favour Ingall made a little swerve to the side of the track where Skaiffe was standing, which outraged skaiffe even more. End result, championship points penalty and big fine. Good for a laugh though!!

[NeilB]

Theres gotta be a video of that somewhere on the net!

[John B]

Dick Johnson saluting Richard Petty - live on in-car camera - after they tangled at Sears, early 1990s.

I think the NASCAR incident Mihai refers to was an August night race at Bristol circa 1995-98. Bobby Labonte may have been the helmet tosser - if he was (I may be mistaken) it's out of character as he generally is one of the most level headed drivers, especially with the recent youth movement. Given the number of miles they race 36 times/year with all the bumping in fendered cars, I'd say there is a relatively small amount of truly outlandish "redneck" behavior along the lines of that or the Busch/Spencer incidents.

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by Mihai
A similar situation can be solved very different in NASCAR though. More or less the same period, the same scenario until one point: oval race, one driver pushes another in the wall, race under yellow. BUT : the driver who’s race ended smashes the other guy’s car with his helmet. Is it because NASCAR drivers traditionally are recognised as rednecks ? Jim Thurman, I’d like to hear your opinion.

I wasn't aware that helmet (or other object) tossing was limited to rednecks

As usual, there's no black and white here. I've seen similar reactions from open wheel single seater drivers and seen NASCAR drivers handle incidents exactly as Vasser did (I've seen a lot of sarcastic applauding). A notable outburst along these lines in the open wheel ranks was Brian Till in the Barber Saab series at Mid-Ohio. After a collision that left his car on the inside of a slow corner, Till waited for the driver who wronged him to pass by and threw the steering wheel at his car.

Still, nothing tops Skip Hudson actually punching Bob Holbert while he was being carried off on a stretcher...and that was from the genteel world of Sports Car racing, not NASCAR ;)

As John B posted, I believe the incident you are referring to was Bobby Labonte at Bristol, though Dale Jarrett also once threw his helmet at a car (also at Bristol) and there was another incident not long ago in a NASCAR GN race.

The American media has obviously done a good job of entrenching the "redneck" stereotype, since it's found it's way to Romania (actually a rather sad commentary on the U.S. media, but that's for another thread).

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
oh dear oh dear oh dear....

Yes?...what Ross?

[eephus]

Arie Luyendyk flipped off Scott Sharp during the 1995 Indy 500. Luyendyk was driving a Menard that year and lost a lap early due after stalling on his first pit stop. He felt Sharp was holding him up in his efforts to catch up to the leaders.



As you can see in the animation, Arie is well into turn one of the Speedway with only one hand on the wheel.

An interesting footnote: While giving the finger to Sharp, Luyendyk's arm knocked out a piece of cockpit padding. You can see this in the last frame of the animation. During the resulting debris caution, leader Jacques Villeneuve passed the pace car. JV had to overcome the two lap penalty on his way to victory.

[Kjetil]

Originally posted by Suzy
Riccardo Zonta to the marshal "driving" the recovery vehicle after the recovery man nearly dropped Zonta's stricken BAR on his head

You mean this? This is from Austria 2000.

I have a video also: http://home.online.n...e/f-1/zonta.mpg

[JohnH]

I did this yesterday, when I was going through a left hand bend, where the light had just gone green, and someone decided to drive almost right into me, because they didn't look, even though I was alongside them throughout the whole corner, just slightly ahead. So why didn't they just go in that lane back at the light? Like an idiot I had my sun visor down partially blocking the view on the left but luckily I was looking left when they were doing that. They actually tried to argue with me at the next light, like it was my fault I was minding my own business in my own lane. I held up my glasses at them, then turned my head and looked forward. There's no point in arguing with idiots like that, in Mercedes Benzes, although later I did regret the finger, a fist shake or hands in the air would have sufficed.

John

[Dmitriy_Guller]

I remember in 1998 Japan race, Tuero smashed into Takagi at the chicane, and Takagi flipped the bird while still coming to rest. It was debri from this incident that blew out Schumacher's tire and eliminated him from a championship.

[jondoe955]

But you gotta get bonus points when you're sliding backwards, face to face with the offender like Alonso and a few others have done.
Oh, and I flip lil'Bernie the bird whenever I see his face. (where's the emoticon for spitting at the ground??)

[Uwe]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
One amusing confrontation I recall was the pencil-slim Luca di Montezemolo taking a frustrated swing at Burdette Martin - race steward - at Watkins Glen at a 1970s US GP (1974, '76, somesuch???). Fortunately the large Mr Martin was more amused than enraged. Otherwise Montezemolo could, indeed, have awoken a sleeping giant...he might not have been around to assume the Presidency of Fiat...

It seems that LdM has a certain affinity to actions like these. Lauda tells a story (in his book "Das dritte Leben", the third life) about his first ever victory in Jarama 1974. Ferrari had something wrong in their lap calculation by about 4 laps. Montezemolo rushed to the race director and demanded very heavily the checkered flag for the leading Lauda, until he got his face slapped.

Uwe

[ianm1808]

The Herbert incident was on the podium after he won the 1995 British GP. I believe (believe!) it was aimed at Flavio Briatore, but it was a lighthearted gesture more than anything going by the huge grin on his face as he did it.

[ianm18081]

Oops on two accounts...

Firstly , forgot my password and the email adresss I had for my original username is foobarred.

And secondly , I seem to think it was actually the 1995 Italian GP where Herbert gave the finger on the podium. My misty recollection is that Flavio had not been entirely complementary about Herbert before the race.

[ianm18081]

Found a picture of it.

1995 Italian GP report from Johnny Herbert's website

[Jungle Boy]

Originally posted by ianm18081
Found a picture of it.

1995 Italian GP report from Johnny Herbert's website

Thanks for the info ian

[MP1-4]

Shinji Nakano too :yawn:

[Jungle Boy]

Originally posted by MP1-4
Shinji Nakano too :yawn:

I wonder who he was waving hello to?

[MarkWRX]

It should be noted that the first thing David Coulthard did in the post race interview was apologize for his "rude gesture."

In the SCCA, giving someone the bird can be considered unsportmanlike behavior and earn you an appointment with the stewards. A driver once flipped off my corner crew because he had been black flagged for repeatedly causing contact in a turn. His crew apparently heard us call it in.

On the cool down lap, he flipped us off. I reported it. At the next race, instead of putting on his firesuit, he wore a white t-shirt and jeans and worked the corners with us all weekend. A few drivers from his car class would slow down on the cool down lap and flip him off, for a laugh. He didn't think it was too funny by the end of the day.

I saw one instance of helmet throwing when a driver slid off during qualification, perhaps after some contact. He walked to the edge of the circut and threw his helmet as the car came around again. The flag marshall reported it and the safety steward drove out, looked at the helmet and decided it had to be reinspected prior to being allowed to race, as there were small cracks in the paint. As a result the driver wasn't able to race as he didn't have a spare helmet.

Rude gestures and helmet throwing generally mean someone has lost control of their emotions, and a racing car is not a good place for someone who can't keep control of their emotions.

Mark

[theunions]

What, still no mention of Greg Moore vs. Juan Montoya at Michigan 1999?

[Mihai]

2 fast 2 furious : NASCAR driver Jimmy Spencer was fined 25 Gs last year for an assault over rival Kurt Busch at the and of the Michigan race. Apparently, Busch was holding a bloody towel on his face as he entered the medical facility on the track. The incident reminded me of the Caracciola-Fagioli near fatal clash after Tripoli 1937. Fagioli chased ‘Karatch’ with a hammer for an alleged blocking during the race. Hopefully, Mercedes’ charismatic race director Alfred Neubauer calmed both drivers.



But Formula 1 drivers can be rednecks too. Take a look at the Piquet-Salazar incident at Hockenheim 1982. F1 Rejects has the entire story.