24 replies to this topic

[Alexey Rogachev]

These three-cylinder, two-stroke engines were the main units that F3 cars from Eastern Europe were equipped with in the 60s. Various types of Melkus & SEG from East Germany, Polish Rak and Promot, Soviet Estonia 5 and Estonia 9, as well as number of other racing 'specials' were powered by Wartburg. There were three types of them, namely: 311, 312, 353 - all of 991 cc volume. I'd like to know exactly what types of Wartburg engines East European cars were equipped with. I can say that Estonia 9 was definitely powered by 312, but I can only make assumptions about other cars:

Melkus 61 - 311
Melkus 63 - 311
Melkus 64 - 312
Melkus 65 - 312
Melkus 67 - 312
Melkus 71 - 353
SEG (variuos types) - 312 & 353
Rak (various types) - 311 & 312
Promot (various types) - 312
Estonia 5 - 311

In the 60s, when the CPF was a F3 series, the Wartburg-powered cars dominated in it, although they were slower than the Cosworth-powered cars that raced in the CPF in 1968-70. In 1972, 1300 cc F. Easter was introduced instead of F3, and Wartburgs had to give way to other engines, Ladas & Škodas mainly.

[Frank de Jong]

A-Z of formula cars gives the 1960 Scampolo (DDR) as Wartburg-powered too.

[David Beard]

Is there any historical connection with the DKW two stroke?

[Alexey Rogachev]

As far as I know, the very first type of Wartburg was the modified DKW F9.

[D-Type]

It was the same designer for the DKW, the Wartburg and the SAAB, but I don't know the sequence.
I think it was DKW prewar that evolved into DKW in West Germany and Wartburg in the DDR while the designer moved on to Sweden to design the SAAB.

[Vitesse2]

Karel Repa's book on Czech racing cars includes a Wartburg-powered front-engined FJ, which appears to have been built in about 1962 by a chap called Alois Gebelec. 900cc Wartburg engine, but as far as I can see it might only have been used in hillclimbs.

Gebelec is also pictured sitting in the Mustang F3 - another Wartburg-powered car with a 992cc engine from the 1000 model. The Mustang later seems to have spawned the MGK, also with the 1000 engine.

There are also two further different Wartburg F3 one-offs, both specified as having Wartburg 1000 engines, and references to Wartburg engines being fitted to Vlazeta F4 cars

[uechtel]

Originally posted by D-Type
It was the same designer for the DKW, the Wartburg and the SAAB, but I don't know the sequence.
I think it was DKW prewar that evolved into DKW in West Germany and Wartburg in the DDR while the designer moved on to Sweden to design the SAAB.

Not quite that easy. Here an explanation in brief : Two automobile concerns had production plants, that lay in the Soviet Zone after the war, BMW at Eisenach and Auto Union all over Saxony. Both companies split into a Western and an Eastern "branch" and both the Eisenach and at the former Auto Union factories continued production of developments of pre-war or models. In case of the IFA (the former Auto Union) it was the IFA F9, which was almost absolutely similar to the DKW of West German production, while Eisenach - under Soviet control - relied mainly on the BMW 340, a development of the BMW 326.

In 1952 the Eisenach plant was handed back to (East) German control and with the already growing problems of material supply in the DDR the representative six-cylinder BMW models were regarded to be too expensive and complicated to carry on with their production. On the other hand a cheap small car was to be developed (the later Trabant) and to get the IFA production lines free for that the whole machinery was transferred to Eisenach. So the Wartburg (and its engine) is the successor of the DKW, but produced in the former BMW factory. The name Wartburg itself connects to much earlier tradition, as the Eisenach factory had already produced cars under this label in the early years of the century (before it later switched to "Dixi" and finally was taken over by BMW in 1928).

[sat]

Alois Gebelec

Alois Gbelec only

It was many cars with Wartburg engine in czech FJunior and F3.
Problem is that in czech press and race programmes car were described as Wartburg without futher description.

[Alexey Rogachev]

And what was the difference between 311, 312, and 353? It seems to me that they were basically the same engine, with very small developments...

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by sat


Alois Gbelec only

I should wear my reading glasses more often ...

[uechtel]

Originally posted by Alexey Rogachev
And what was the difference between 311, 312, and 353? It seems to me that they were basically the same engine, with very small developments...

The 311 was only a minor development of the IFA/DKW F9 engine. The 312 had a new crankshaft and a new cylinder head and its capaicty was increased to 1000 cc. The 353 was basically identical.

I have only information about the basic production engines (Werner Oswald: Deutsche Autos nach 1945), so the derived racing engines (mainly privately tuned?) may differ:

					IFA F9			  311				 312				 353

production		  1950 / 1954		 1956 / 1961		 1962				1966 / 1969

Cylinders							   3-cylinder two-stroke

bore x stroke	   70 x 78			 70 x 78			 73,5 x 78		   73,5 x 78		   mm

capacity			900				 900				 992				 992				 cc

power			   28 - 30			 37 - 40			 45				  45 - 50			 hp

at				  3600 - 3800		 4000				4200				4250				rpm

torque			  7,5				 8,3				 9,3				 9,3 - 10			mkg

at				  2500				2200				3000				3000				rpm

compression		 1 : 6,25 / 1 : 6,9  1 : 6,7 / 1 : 7,4   1 : 7,4			 1 : 7,5 / 1 : 7,6

carburettor						   horizontal BVF H 32/0					 downdraught BVF 40 F

oil / fuel						 1 : 25				   1 : 33			  1 : 33 / 1 : 50

From 1957 to 1960 there was also a two carburettor-sports version of the 311 available, delivering 50 hp at 4500 rpm / 9 mkg at 3750 rpm.

[just me again]

surely you mean the produktion started in 1966 of the 353. My parents had several Wartburgs, the newest being from 1986 and still a 353.
do you know if there was any chances to the engine ( apart from the ventilator.) when they moved the radiator from the back to the front ( around 1980 i think ).

Bjørn

[Alexey Rogachev]

uechtel, thank you very much! The table you've posted here will be very useful in my research as I hadn't been aware of such characteristics of these engines as bore, stroke, and compression. Of course, the Wartburg units were tuned by the designers of racing cars - for example, those that Estonias were equipped with delivered about 80 hp.

Wartburg 353 was in production until 1991, being equipped with VW 1.3-litre engine in his last two years.

[uechtel]

Originally posted by just me again
surely you mean the produktion started in 1966 of the 353. My parents had several Wartburgs, the newest being from 1986 and still a 353.

sorry, yes I mean production started in 1966 with a development step towards 50 hp in 1969.

do you know if there was any chances to the engine ( apart from the ventilator.) when they moved the radiator from the back to the front ( around 1980 i think ).

Bjørn

I´m no Wartburg specialist, but according to Oswald´s book 1982 there was a swich to Wikov carburettors in 1982. Even bevore in 1975 the 353 W had been introduced, now with disc brakes etc, but none of these improvements reflecting to the engine.

According to Oswald it was also possible to bore the engine out to 1150 cc to fit better to current touring car capacity class limits.

[Alexey Rogachev]

And what about their racing career? Weren't any other engines of suitable capacity in East Germany in the 60s? Hmmm... I have read somewhere that two-stroke engines are capable to provide the higher power density than four-stroke ones - possibly Heinz Melkus chose Wartburgs because of this?

[uechtel]

I think this was rather because he had no other choice, simply as the Wartburg three-cylinder was the "hottest" engine of DDR-production he could get. The only other automobile engine was the 600 cc Trabant, of course two-stroke either.

With the end of the production of the former BMW six cylinders the whole DDR automobile production was heritage of the Auto Union, in particular of the DKW branch. Audi and Horch, but even Wanderer had built cars, that were too "expensive" in production for the socialistic plan economy with all its supply problems. The original aim was to motorize the people, so this was to be achieved by production of small and cheap cars like the Trabant. With DKW experience and the simplicity of the engine principle I think the two-stroke was a logical choice and so it becamke the standard product (like rear-engined cars in the CSSR it seems) and in fact after the end of the BMW 327 in 1956 and the Sachsenring (Horch) P 240 in 1959 no others than two-stroke cars remained in prodcution until 1988, when the first Wartburgs were fitted with VW engines. (BTW: The end of the BMW-line was certainly also a factor for closing down the Rennkollektiv after 1956, simply as their engines were still based on the BMW)

And even the four-stroke cars, that had been manufactured so far, were mainly intended for export (BMW models), as foreign currencies were already desperately needed, or reserved for representation purposes for the leaders of the state (Horch/Sachsenring P 240).

All the rest were only experimental models, which were always stopped by order of the government. Also in 1956 the RGW-Countries (Warsaw Pact) agreed on specialisation of their products, and the GDR became "responsible" for small and medium automobiles and lorries, while the heavy vehicles should be imported from the "brother-countries".

[Alexey Rogachev]

This is Georgy Surguchev at the wheel of his Melkus Wartburg in 1964. What type of Melkus is it? I had thought Surguchev was driving Melkus 61 in 1964 before I saw this photo. Definitely it isn't 61 - it seems to me to be 63, but the shape and the position of the exhausts make me doubt in it...

[IMV]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Karel Repa's book on Czech racing cars includes a Wartburg-powered front-engined FJ, which appears to have been built in about 1962 by a chap called Alois Gebelec. 900cc Wartburg engine, but as far as I can see it might only have been used in hillclimbs.

Not only, attached please find a picture from FJ International race in Brno 1962. Alois Gbelec is driving his car behind Vladimír Hubácek


Michal

[IMV]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Gbelec is also pictured sitting in the Mustang F3 - another Wartburg-powered car with a 992cc engine from the 1000 model. The Mustang later seems to have spawned the MGK, also with the 1000 engine.

There are also two further different Wartburg F3 one-offs, both specified as having Wartburg 1000 engines, ....

An example for your imagination:
in Stramberk 1967 race, 2nd round of Czechoslovak championship, took part 34 cars. 24 was equipped with Wartburg engines, 8 with Skoda, 1 with Renault 8 and one with SAAB engine. The most succesful of them with some pictures from my archive you will find in new Ben Cowdrey book ;-)

Michal

[Jimmy Piget]

Originally posted by IMV
in Stramberk 1967 race, 2nd round of Czechoslovak championship, took part 34 cars. 24 was equipped with Wartburg engines, 8 with Skoda, 1 with Renault 8 and one with SAAB engine. The most succesful of them with some pictures from my archive you will find in new Ben Cowdrey book ;-)
Michal

Dear Michal,
I'd be interested in having the entry list... Can you send it within this forum ?

Other things : Both email addresses I had for Messr David Beard & Alexey Rogachev do not work anymore...
Where can I email to you ?

[Alexey Rogachev]

Jimmy,

My e-mail address hasn't been changed since November 2000 - it's still the same, and it works...

[IMV]

Originally posted by Jimmy Piget


Dear Michal,
I'd be interested in having the entry list... Can you send it within this forum ?....

Michal

[Jimmy Piget]

Thank you, Michale !

[bschenker]

May by not was you want, but still a Wartburg and still racing.

http:www.silviomoser.ch/620528hasasch.jpg//

[bschenker]

Sorry !!

May by not was you want, but still a Wartburg and still racing.